Re: wheat and milk

June 20, 2005

At 02:00 AM 6/20/2005, you wrote:

>But what I see is that milk and especially dairy can

>easily (much more easily than carbs for that matter) slip away, come

>off clear, as if they were the misunderstood good boys (or girls, I

>don't know which). Are they?

JC:

A lot of people do just fine on grains and milk. Some

people can't eat them at all. Ditto with carbs.

The carb thing is interesting to me because of

the " resistant starch " issue. Some folks do ok

on one species of corn, but badly on another species.

THAT gets complicated. Wheat gets complicated

too, because modern wheat is a lot different

than older wheat: it is one food I think that ranks

up there with " high fructose corn syrup " as

destroying the health of people.

Really though, very little in life is " all good " or " all bad " .

Even wheat. It has it's good points too.

Heidi Jean

June 20, 2005

>>>> Really though, very little in life is " all good " or " all bad " .

Even wheat. It has it's good points too.

Heidi >>>

Wheat smells absolutely divine! I love the smell of fresh-from-the-field

wheat berries after they're first ground in a mill. And then the smell that

emanates from the oven as the flour is baking is literally :-) to die for!

I can imagine using its essence as a perfume....

~Robin

June 20, 2005

>

> Really though, very little in life is " all good " or " all bad " .

> Even wheat. It has it's good points too.

>

> Heidi Jean

I agree, Heidi Jean. The short piece I am going to tell you now will

sound heretical to some, but I will tell it anyway. The story I heard

from a member of a paleo discussion group I was visiting for some

time two months ago. Let's call her T.

So T. was having dinner at her vegan friends' place. They were

very " understanding " vegans, because they allowed meat-eaters into

their house. The couple and the three boys were eating soya burgers

(with the buns), while T., being a paleo, was having her hamburguer

with the greens but without the bun, of course. All seemed to be

running smoothly.

However, one of the boys, maybe the smallest one, was sometimes

casting suspicious glances at T.'s dish. In a moment of distraction

for T., the boy snatched the hamburguer from her plate and quickly

put it into his own mouth. Immediately the parents rose and started

shouting at him: Spit it! Spit it! (As if the urchin had eaten

poison...)

I don't remember if they managed to get it out of his mouth (I hope

not).

After her initial fright, T. couldn't refrain being amused at the

situation. In fact, it was both tragic (those vegan kids were

suffering from severe proteic deficiencies - there you go, -

because of silly parents and the bravest of them dared to act upon

his body's needs) and comic (the parents trying desperately to get

the hamburguer out of their youngest's mouth.)

This is where schematism and fanaticism can lead. But the other side

of the coin is hardly visible. There is another lesser tragedy to

this story.

I don't think T. was necessarily gluten intolerant. Maybe she was

just experimenting with paleo diet, which I think was the real case.

The fact that she went to her friends' place, took her own food with

her and refused to eat the bun, the apparently meaningless separatism

between friends on the grounds of their different rigid diets - isn't

all of this tragic as well?

José

June 20, 2005

>I don't think T. was necessarily gluten intolerant. Maybe she was

>just experimenting with paleo diet, which I think was the real case.

>The fact that she went to her friends' place, took her own food with

>her and refused to eat the bun, the apparently meaningless separatism

>between friends on the grounds of their different rigid diets - isn't

>all of this tragic as well?

>

>José

Well, it COULD be separatism or it could just be fun experimentation ...

depends on the person's attitude. People can be very dogmatic

about anything, and people get awfully serious about stuff

sometimes. Rigidity in general is not a great thing, but it is

part of how humans operate. I had at my table for awhile an Atkins

person AND a vegan (and me, the non-wheat person) and

we shared lunch daily. I admit I don't like making separate

food for everyone, and I finally figured out how to make

lunch such that everyone can pick the pieces they like,

but lunch should be about more than food choices?

Heidi Jean

June 21, 2005

>Wheat smells absolutely divine! I love the smell of fresh-from-the-field

>wheat berries after they're first ground in a mill. And then the smell that

>emanates from the oven as the flour is baking is literally :-) to die for!

>

>I can imagine using its essence as a perfume....

>~Robin

Really? I started making really high yeast pizza and I figured out

it is the *yeast* that I associate with wheat, not so much the

wheat itself.

But it's been so long since I ate " regular " bread that I

can't tell the difference. I get these nightmares where

I eat some bread and then discover it's a wheat loaf.

Might be one of the reasons I don't eat bread much!

Heidi Jean

June 21, 2005

Hi:

This conversation is turning into something Proustian, isn't it? I

think of the smell of baked apples or fried garlic. Well, maybe my

passion for food is now surfacing. Ron is right, after all, but I

still question his use of " tremendous " .

I'd like to say something. I've always been attracted to Buddhism,

especially Zen Buddhism. I even started learning Japanese in order to

be closer to it. Well, they have all those things about compassion

and non-attachment. I was thinking maybe those laws, if ever they are

laws, could possibly help us cope with addiction, if we consider an

addiction to be an attachment. So, not only attachment to money,

power, sex or TV, but also to certain foods. By non-attachment I

don't necessarily mean never eating or drinking that food again,

unless it is as a matter of fact very evil, but knowing how to use it

wisely, how to resolve your cravings without going into debauchery,

like an Epicurean. This is very difficult to convey in words, but I

will tell you brief case history, which might help me highlight this

point.

I have a friend who found that he was gluten-intolerant at a rather

advanced age, over 55. He used to eat a lot of bread, like a true

German, but then stopped eating it all of a sudden and switched to

other carbs, mainly tubers and roots. I don't often hear from him,

but think that his health improved somewhat. However, sometime ago he

wrote (we don't use e-mails) to say he had found something very

curious in his relationship to gluten.

He found, much to his surprise, that if the company was good, if he

was in a very relaxed mood, if he wasn´t over vigilant, if the food

was festive, if the atmosphere was friendly rather than noisy and all

those positive things, he was able to eat some bread and have no side

effects.

I can't tell if he has re-introduced bread or wheat into his daily

life. I don't think he has, but I feel that to learn that he was able

to eat it under certain conditions was redemptive to him, because he

somehow missed it.

José

PS. But I am not saying that this will apply to anyone.

>

> >Wheat smells absolutely divine! I love the smell of fresh-from-the-

field

> >wheat berries after they're first ground in a mill. And then the

smell that

> >emanates from the oven as the flour is baking is literally :-) to

die for!

> >

> >I can imagine using its essence as a perfume....

> >~Robin

>

> Really? I started making really high yeast pizza and I figured out

> it is the *yeast* that I associate with wheat, not so much the

> wheat itself.

>

> But it's been so long since I ate " regular " bread that I

> can't tell the difference. I get these nightmares where

> I eat some bread and then discover it's a wheat loaf.

> Might be one of the reasons I don't eat bread much!

>

> Heidi Jean

June 21, 2005

Hi José ,

> He found, much to his surprise, that if the company was good, if he

> was in a very relaxed mood, if he wasn´t over vigilant, if the food

> was festive, if the atmosphere was friendly rather than noisy and all

> those positive things, he was able to eat some bread and have no side

> effects.

>

Yes, I have had similar experiences. There is more to this issue than

simply the food that you put in your mouth, that's for sure. For lack of a

better term this effect gets lumped in with " energy " issues and I think that

it is a very valid area for study.

In the end, though, these experiences are typically very hard to reproduce

so the simplest way to ensure that your body is getting the correct foods is

to simply eat the correct foods all of the time. Perhaps risk some evil

food, as you called it, if the time seems right but be willing to pay the

price if it doesn't work out.

Ron

June 22, 2005

This is *so* interesting.

But I'm wondering whether his gut has simply healed sufficiently that

he can occasionally enjoy some wheat, or could it be an illustration

of what Dr. Hamer says about what causes allergies?

I don't have an exact quote handy, but I understand his take on

allergies is that people become allergic to foods/substances because

they had an unexpected traumatic experience while ingesting that

food/substance. I believe the example I have seen is that a person

could become allergic to hay because they were unexpectedly caught

while engaging in a " roll in the hay " . (We're talking about literal

hay, here.)

I do believe that allergies are worse when the adrenals are depleted

by, say, too much stress, too much sugar, too much caffeine, or too

little sleep--or all of the above!

I also wonder about the protective effect of saturated fat and

cholesterol...

....and the protective effect of pleasant company.

I know of a situation where the fellow's respiratory allergies

resolved when he separated from his wife. LOL!

> Hi José ,

>

> > He found, much to his surprise, that if the company was good, if

he

> > was in a very relaxed mood, if he wasn´t over vigilant, if the

food

> > was festive, if the atmosphere was friendly rather than noisy and

all

> > those positive things, he was able to eat some bread and have no

side

> > effects.

> >

>

> Yes, I have had similar experiences. There is more to this issue

than

> simply the food that you put in your mouth, that's for sure. For

lack of a

> better term this effect gets lumped in with " energy " issues and I

think that

> it is a very valid area for study.

>

> In the end, though, these experiences are typically very hard to

reproduce

> so the simplest way to ensure that your body is getting the correct

foods is

> to simply eat the correct foods all of the time. Perhaps risk some

evil

> food, as you called it, if the time seems right but be willing to

pay the

> price if it doesn't work out.

>

> Ron

June 24, 2005

> He found, much to his surprise, that if the company was good, if he

> was in a very relaxed mood, if he wasn´t over vigilant, if the food

> was festive, if the atmosphere was friendly rather than noisy and all

> those positive things, he was able to eat some bread and have no side

> effects.

Would he be drinking wine in these situations? Wine aids digestion,

and I personally find I digest much better when I've had red wine with

a meal (a tip from Heidi Jean). Could be that's what had an effect

Unfortunately, the situation you describe above is most likely when I

would fall off the gluten wagon but I still get a severe reaction - I

did so on Friday night: plenty of red wine first, my resolve dropped,

hunger took over and I caved in and had a barbecued sausage - Sunday

and Monday I really suffered. (NB: all sausages in UK have gluten

added)

Jo

June 24, 2005

Jo,

Sainsbury's sell organic sausages which are gluten free... Moroccan 'Merguez'

[lamb]sausages are usually gluten free and are available widely... the Ginger

Pig [their farm is in Yorkshire and sell at Borough market and in Moxon st. W1]

do some wonderful GF sausages....[i know you're not in London]... you could

probably find a butcher [maybe in farmers markets] who have a similar GF range.

Dedy