Re: Response to local vegan article...

[Guest guest]

Oh :

I am " sorry " for you: I've been to that before. I've had in the past

very hot debates with vegans - to no avail. It's humanly impossible

to argue with them. I understand that you may feel revolted, but I am

afraid that you are going to waste your time with them. They will

reply to you in kind. Well, maybe if someone else (not a vegan) reads

your letter, they will give up their project of becoming one. So, in

the long run, you may be helping them. But I don't think an

ideological vegan will ever apologize for the things they have said,

eat back their words or recognize that veganism is not the only way.

In my opinion, many vegans are cheaters.

JC

> Hi, Everyone.

> I am asking for some help and advice from all of you.

> There was an opinion article written in my tiny local paper, here

in Acton,

> MA, in praise of an interview with some local woman that is a vegan

and PETA

> activist.

> The whole article got under my skin but the part that really rubbed

me the

> wrong way was that the writer defends notmilk.com

<http://notmilk.com> and

> then goes on to state that Dean Ornish is a nationally respected

health

> expert. (article below)

> I am writing to all of you for some really concise ideas to

include in a

> letter in response to the one written.

> I am sure that I can write a semi-decent article myself, but I

really want

> to make some solid points in this letter so that I can get people

thinking

> about what they eat and how they live.

> I figure with the help of all you, I can write more than I could

alone.

> Besides, I barely have time to keep up with all the e-mails between

native

> nutrition, raw dairy, microbial nutrition, and my job.

> Thanks in advance!

>

> http://www2.townonline.com/acton/opinion/view.bg?articleid=273579

> *To the editor:

> * *** Nick Pinto's interview with Eisenberg was

outstanding. This

> article has been an eye-opener to many regarding the cruelty that

is

> inherent to the meat industry. Although I do not support the animal

> liberation movement, nor am I an " animal rights advocate, " I

appreciate the

> awareness that these caring people provide.

> * *** For athletic reasons, I have eaten vegetarian for nearly 30

years and

> vegan for over a decade. World-class athletes such as Carl

have

> discovered eating vegan (pronounced Vee-gun - as in intriguin' not

> fatiguin;) and successfully extended their gold-medal winning

careers.

> * *** Because of many enlightened researchers, dieticians and

physicians, I

> find overwhelming evidence that eating vegan is the most

appropriate way to

> eat to avoid chronic diseases and physical complaints of every

description.

> Enjoying eating whole foods vegan is complete and far exceeds the

standard

> American diet in terms of micro- and macro-nutrients. People are

reticent to

> change. They feel threatened that the love of eating or the

fellowship of

> eating will change. It will not. Eating vegan only enhances the

love of

> food. As vegetarian Bernard Shaw said, " The most sincere

love the is

> the love of food. " That love is not threatened by eating whole

foods vegan.

> * *** In nature, it is not pretty to see a pride of lions ripping

apart the

> limbs of a zebra while the zebra is still conscious, or a snake

squeezing

> the life our of a rodent before swallowing it whole; I am in accord

with Ms.

> Eisenberg, that it is neither appropriate, nor is there any good

reason for

> mankind to ever kill animals for food or drink the milk of another

species.

> That only contributes to unnecessary diseases. Do the research on

the

> benefits of eating vegan, and draw your own conclusions. I

recommend " The

> Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine, " " Hallelujah

Acres, "

> Cohen's www.notmilk.com <http://www.notmilk.com>; or the works of

nationally

> respected and peer-reviewed physicians such as A. McDoudall,

Neal

> Barnard or Dean Ornish.

> * *** Forry " Buck " Buckingham

> * *** Acton*

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, this article really got up my nose too. Probably mostly because I used

to think this way too. Apart from all the evidence that says that humans

evolved eating meat and there are no healthy primitives that are vegetarian (let

alone vegan) I was swayed by an argument that outlined how ecologically unsound

vegetarian crops are. But do you think I can find it now?!! This is going to

keep me awake! Essentially I don't think there is enough farmable land in the

world to grow enough vegetarian crops to support the world population. The

emphasis here being on farmable. Many animals can survive quite nicely where no

food crops can grow eg mountainsides. Apart from that ....growing rice causes

an increase in the mosquito population....I think the argument went that these

infected either people or ducks or both and this caused further illnesses that

killed humans. Even cotton was supposed to be bad, I think because of the

pesticides needed. Even faux fur got slammed. Wish I could remember where I

read it now. Does this ring a bell with anyone?

Sorry I can " t be any help.....I'll be off searching for this article now!!! Damn

it!

Response to local vegan article...

Hi, Everyone.

I am asking for some help and advice from all of you.

There was an opinion article written in my tiny local paper, here in Acton,

MA, in praise of an interview with some local woman that is a vegan and PETA

activist.

The whole article got under my skin but the part that really rubbed me the

wrong way was that the writer defends notmilk.com <http://notmilk.com> and

then goes on to state that Dean Ornish is a nationally respected health

expert. (article below)

I am writing to all of you for some really concise ideas to include in a

letter in response to the one written.

I am sure that I can write a semi-decent article myself, but I really want

to make some solid points in this letter so that I can get people thinking

about what they eat and how they live.

I figure with the help of all you, I can write more than I could alone.

Besides, I barely have time to keep up with all the e-mails between native

nutrition, raw dairy, microbial nutrition, and my job.

Thanks in advance!

http://www2.townonline.com/acton/opinion/view.bg?articleid=273579

*To the editor:

* *** Nick Pinto's interview with Eisenberg was outstanding. This

article has been an eye-opener to many regarding the cruelty that is

inherent to the meat industry. Although I do not support the animal

liberation movement, nor am I an " animal rights advocate, " I appreciate the

awareness that these caring people provide.

* *** For athletic reasons, I have eaten vegetarian for nearly 30 years and

vegan for over a decade. World-class athletes such as Carl have

discovered eating vegan (pronounced Vee-gun - as in intriguin' not

fatiguin;) and successfully extended their gold-medal winning careers.

* *** Because of many enlightened researchers, dieticians and physicians, I

find overwhelming evidence that eating vegan is the most appropriate way to

eat to avoid chronic diseases and physical complaints of every description.

Enjoying eating whole foods vegan is complete and far exceeds the standard

American diet in terms of micro- and macro-nutrients. People are reticent to

change. They feel threatened that the love of eating or the fellowship of

eating will change. It will not. Eating vegan only enhances the love of

food. As vegetarian Bernard Shaw said, " The most sincere love the is

the love of food. " That love is not threatened by eating whole foods vegan.

* *** In nature, it is not pretty to see a pride of lions ripping apart the

limbs of a zebra while the zebra is still conscious, or a snake squeezing

the life our of a rodent before swallowing it whole; I am in accord with Ms.

Eisenberg, that it is neither appropriate, nor is there any good reason for

mankind to ever kill animals for food or drink the milk of another species.

That only contributes to unnecessary diseases. Do the research on the

benefits of eating vegan, and draw your own conclusions. I recommend " The

Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine, " " Hallelujah Acres, "

Cohen's www.notmilk.com <http://www.notmilk.com>; or the works of nationally

respected and peer-reviewed physicians such as A. McDoudall, Neal

Barnard or Dean Ornish.

* *** Forry " Buck " Buckingham

* *** Acton*

[Guest guest]

Ok it seems to be something I read on the NeanderThin site

http://www.neanderthin.com/site/faq.htm

Feeling better now. Of course I don't know if it's all correct but it certainly

got me eating animals.

Do vegans make their pets eat that way too? and the zoo animals?

Ok the only other argumant that I can see is the one for vitamin B12 that you

cannot get on a vegan diet.

Well I hope that I have been of some help...little though it may be.

[Guest guest]

Hi :

You could consider using this. I have taken it from a Course in

Anthropology, by Haviland (1974):

" After early hominids became fully bipedal and more omnivorous, the

size and structure of the brain began to change. Formerly, early

hominids lived mainly on plants and fruits; their food was around to

be picked. The addition of meat to their diet made new demands on

their coordination and behavior. To obtain small lizards, grubs,

bugs, and eggs, they had to search more persistently and more

stealthily; to catch the defenceless young of other species, they had

to plan ahead and move quickly; to rob other predators of their kill,

they had to cooperate in groups. Obtaining animal food presented

problems that very often had to be solved on the spot. A hunter

depending on stereotyped instinctual behavior alone in such a

situation would have been at a competitive disadvantage; whereas a

creature that could anticipate problems, dig pits, build snares, and

shape stones, sticks, and bones into weapons stood a much better

chance of surviving, reproducing, and proliferating.

Another factor influencing brain growth was the addition of more

nutritious, protein-rich meat to the diet. Vegetarian primates spend

a great deal of time foraging and eating food, because plants are low

in protein, and a great deal of vegetation must be consumed if the

animal is to remain alert and alive. Eaters of high-protein meat,

however, have no need to eat as often as their vegetarian cousins.

Consequently, a meat-eating hominid may have had more leisure time

available to explore and exploit its environment; like lions and

leopards, it would have time to spend lying around and playing. Such

activity, coupled with the other factors mentioned here, greatly

stimulated early hominid brain development.

Some anthropologists believe that cooperative hunting was one of the

catalysts of human development. A site in Spain has revealed that a

band of H. Erectus used fire to drive a large herd of elephants into

a swamp where they were immobilized and the killed and butchered. ...

Such cooperation would require planning and the use of some form of

verbal and/or gestural ommunication; these traits can be seen in

rudimentary form in the hunting groups of chimpanzees. "

(Anthropology, by Haviland)

Hope it helps.

JC

> Hi, Everyone.

> I am asking for some help and advice from all of you.

> There was an opinion article written in my tiny local paper, here

in Acton,

> MA, in praise of an interview with some local woman that is a vegan

and PETA

> activist.

> The whole article got under my skin but the part that really rubbed

me the

> wrong way was that the writer defends notmilk.com

<http://notmilk.com> and

> then goes on to state that Dean Ornish is a nationally respected

health

> expert. (article below)

> I am writing to all of you for some really concise ideas to

include in a

> letter in response to the one written.

> I am sure that I can write a semi-decent article myself, but I

really want

> to make some solid points in this letter so that I can get people

thinking

> about what they eat and how they live.

> I figure with the help of all you, I can write more than I could

alone.

> Besides, I barely have time to keep up with all the e-mails between

native

> nutrition, raw dairy, microbial nutrition, and my job.

> Thanks in advance!

>

> http://www2.townonline.com/acton/opinion/view.bg?articleid=273579

> *To the editor:

> * *** Nick Pinto's interview with Eisenberg was

outstanding. This

> article has been an eye-opener to many regarding the cruelty that

is

> inherent to the meat industry. Although I do not support the animal

> liberation movement, nor am I an " animal rights advocate, " I

appreciate the

> awareness that these caring people provide.

> * *** For athletic reasons, I have eaten vegetarian for nearly 30

years and

> vegan for over a decade. World-class athletes such as Carl

have

> discovered eating vegan (pronounced Vee-gun - as in intriguin' not

> fatiguin;) and successfully extended their gold-medal winning

careers.

> * *** Because of many enlightened researchers, dieticians and

physicians, I

> find overwhelming evidence that eating vegan is the most

appropriate way to

> eat to avoid chronic diseases and physical complaints of every

description.

> Enjoying eating whole foods vegan is complete and far exceeds the

standard

> American diet in terms of micro- and macro-nutrients. People are

reticent to

> change. They feel threatened that the love of eating or the

fellowship of

> eating will change. It will not. Eating vegan only enhances the

love of

> food. As vegetarian Bernard Shaw said, " The most sincere

love the is

> the love of food. " That love is not threatened by eating whole

foods vegan.

> * *** In nature, it is not pretty to see a pride of lions ripping

apart the

> limbs of a zebra while the zebra is still conscious, or a snake

squeezing

> the life our of a rodent before swallowing it whole; I am in accord

with Ms.

> Eisenberg, that it is neither appropriate, nor is there any good

reason for

> mankind to ever kill animals for food or drink the milk of another

species.

> That only contributes to unnecessary diseases. Do the research on

the

> benefits of eating vegan, and draw your own conclusions. I

recommend " The

> Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine, " " Hallelujah

Acres, "

> Cohen's www.notmilk.com <http://www.notmilk.com>; or the works of

nationally

> respected and peer-reviewed physicians such as A. McDoudall,

Neal

> Barnard or Dean Ornish.

> * *** Forry " Buck " Buckingham

> * *** Acton*

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi again:

You might want to have a look at this link, too:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html

Good luck.

José

> Hi, Everyone.

> I am asking for some help and advice from all of you.

> There was an opinion article written in my tiny local paper, here

in Acton,

> MA, in praise of an interview with some local woman that is a vegan

and PETA

> activist.

> The whole article got under my skin but the part that really rubbed

me the

> wrong way was that the writer defends notmilk.com

<http://notmilk.com> and

> then goes on to state that Dean Ornish is a nationally respected

health

> expert. (article below)

> I am writing to all of you for some really concise ideas to

include in a

> letter in response to the one written.

> I am sure that I can write a semi-decent article myself, but I

really want

> to make some solid points in this letter so that I can get people

thinking

> about what they eat and how they live.

> I figure with the help of all you, I can write more than I could

alone.

> Besides, I barely have time to keep up with all the e-mails between

native

> nutrition, raw dairy, microbial nutrition, and my job.

> Thanks in advance!

>

> http://www2.townonline.com/acton/opinion/view.bg?articleid=273579

> *To the editor:

> * *** Nick Pinto's interview with Eisenberg was

outstanding. This

> article has been an eye-opener to many regarding the cruelty that

is

> inherent to the meat industry. Although I do not support the animal

> liberation movement, nor am I an " animal rights advocate, " I

appreciate the

> awareness that these caring people provide.

> * *** For athletic reasons, I have eaten vegetarian for nearly 30

years and

> vegan for over a decade. World-class athletes such as Carl

have

> discovered eating vegan (pronounced Vee-gun - as in intriguin' not

> fatiguin;) and successfully extended their gold-medal winning

careers.

> * *** Because of many enlightened researchers, dieticians and

physicians, I

> find overwhelming evidence that eating vegan is the most

appropriate way to

> eat to avoid chronic diseases and physical complaints of every

description.

> Enjoying eating whole foods vegan is complete and far exceeds the

standard

> American diet in terms of micro- and macro-nutrients. People are

reticent to

> change. They feel threatened that the love of eating or the

fellowship of

> eating will change. It will not. Eating vegan only enhances the

love of

> food. As vegetarian Bernard Shaw said, " The most sincere

love the is

> the love of food. " That love is not threatened by eating whole

foods vegan.

> * *** In nature, it is not pretty to see a pride of lions ripping

apart the

> limbs of a zebra while the zebra is still conscious, or a snake

squeezing

> the life our of a rodent before swallowing it whole; I am in accord

with Ms.

> Eisenberg, that it is neither appropriate, nor is there any good

reason for

> mankind to ever kill animals for food or drink the milk of another

species.

> That only contributes to unnecessary diseases. Do the research on

the

> benefits of eating vegan, and draw your own conclusions. I

recommend " The

> Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine, " " Hallelujah

Acres, "

> Cohen's www.notmilk.com <http://www.notmilk.com>; or the works of

nationally

> respected and peer-reviewed physicians such as A. McDoudall,

Neal

> Barnard or Dean Ornish.

> * *** Forry " Buck " Buckingham

> * *** Acton*

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>

> Wow, this article really got up my nose too. Probably mostly because I

> used to think this way too. Apart from all the evidence that says that

> humans evolved eating meat and there are no healthy primitives that are

> vegetarian (let alone vegan) I was swayed by an argument that outlined how

> ecologically unsound vegetarian crops are. But do you think I can find it

> now?!! This is going to keep me awake! Essentially I don't think there is

> enough farmable land in the world to grow enough vegetarian crops to support

> the world population. The emphasis here being on farmable. Many animals can

> survive quite nicely where no food crops can grow eg mountainsides. Apart

> from that ....growing rice causes an increase in the mosquito

> population....I think the argument went that these infected either people or

> ducks or both and this caused further illnesses that killed humans. Even

> cotton was supposed to be bad, I think because of the pesticides needed.

> Even faux fur got slammed. Wish I could remember where I read it now. Does

> this ring a bell with anyone?

>

> Hi, .

Actually this is very helpful.

The argument regarding sustainable agriculture, which I am sure most vegans

would like to promote, as it reduces the environmental impact of getting our

food, is easily made in favor of using animals as a source of concentrated

nutrition.

Otherwise, like you stated above, huge amounts of land are required to

supply a mostly grain based diet that will ultimately yield malnourished

people.

I would also imagine that a vegan society would be much more dependent on

oil (transportation, fertilization, and tractor dependent crop maintenance)

than a traditional, sustainable farming society that combines animal and

plant nutrition.

Of course, the emphasis is on sustainable practices, including pasture

feeding of animals and good animal husbandry (care, breeding, etc).

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

> Do vegans make their pets eat that way too? and the zoo animals?

>

Unfortunately, yes (well, maybe not vegans, but vegetarians anyway).

When I was first researching the raw diet for my German shepherd, I

came across website about vegetarian diets for cats and dogs. YUCK.

On the other hand, I've " met " many vegetarians online that came to

realize that cats and dogs are carnivores and deserve to be fed the way

nature intended. Too bad they didn't realize that about their own

diet..... oh well.

Hope gives them hell !! BTW, my son's name is too.

Magda

[Guest guest]

>The argument regarding sustainable agriculture, which I am sure most vegans

>would like to promote, as it reduces the environmental impact of getting our

>food, is easily made in favor of using animals as a source of concentrated

>nutrition.

>Otherwise, like you stated above, huge amounts of land are required to

>supply a mostly grain based diet that will ultimately yield malnourished

>people.

>I would also imagine that a vegan society would be much more dependent on

>oil (transportation, fertilization, and tractor dependent crop maintenance)

>than a traditional, sustainable farming society that combines animal and

>plant nutrition.

>Of course, the emphasis is on sustainable practices, including pasture

>feeding of animals and good animal husbandry (care, breeding, etc).

> Thanks,

>

>

and all,

As a former vegan, I believe veganism is an unattainable ideal. The

idea that we can somehow stop using animals and their products is doomed

to failure ultimately. Where do you draw the line: wool, leather,

insects on windshields/windscreens?

In terms of agriculture, you may want to explore the world of veganic

gardening for your rebuttal:

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/people/lifestyle/home_and_garden/veganic_garden\

ing.php

The concept of denying the proper role of animal products to soil health

is flawed. I guess they use insects and worms, but shoot, people pay an

arm and a leg for things like bat guano because they do enrich the soil

so well. Veganics allow human wastes, but not other animal products,

hmmm. Divorcing themselves from the life cycles that naturally govern

our very existence, vegans choose to look at things not from reality,

but from ideality.

Deanna, who always fed her cats meat