Re: Finns, Fats and Heart Disease

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>Since we were talking about fats and heart disease, I thought I'd mention

>that the one really GOOD predictor of heart disease is homocysteine

>levels. Homocysteine levels are kept down by B6 (folate).

Homocysteine levels are a great predictor, and folate is an important means

of keeping them down, but B6 and folate are not the same thing. B6 is

pyridoxine, or pyridoxamine or pyridoxal phosphate, sometimes in supplement

form as pyridoxine hydrochloride. Folate is folate, or folacin and

pteroylglutamic acid, generally in supplement form as folic acid. Folate

is also sometimes referred to as vitamin B9.

>Turns out that beer increases the amount of folate in the blood. Now

>awhile back, LF beer was ubiquitous ... folks drank it instead of water,

>and it was likely a lot healthier than the water in many cases (water

>often had stuff like parasites and sewage bacteria). Every culture seems

>to have had it's local beer-analog. Anyway, that means they got a lot of

>nice B6 and other good stuff, and the lactic acid probably helped regulate

>blood sugar too.

I think it's important to distinguish between modern beer and old-fashioned

beers such as " small beer " . Modern beer has a much higher alcohol content

due to the use of hops, which also contain a potent phytoestrogen. For

that reason, I'd venture to guess that basically any modern beer, and any

homemade beer with hops, is contraindicated except maybe as an occasional

indulgence.

It also bears pointing out that folate and B6 are both found in liver.

And as to the purported blood sugar-regulating power of lactic acid, I

think the jury is still out. It does appear that it might help for some

people, but remember that lactic acid is a metabolic product of glucose

digestion, and the liver can and does reassemble lactic acid molecules into

glucose. Also, insulin-dependent diabetics need to count lactic acid as

sugar -- IOW, fermenting dairy doesn't reduce their need for insulin

regardless of how thoroughly it's fermented.

>That is REGULAR beer! Molasses LF beer should be far better. Zinc, copper,

>and iron at least: see below.

Why would you assume molasses beer would be far better? It's likely to

have more residual sugar.

-

[Guest guest]

>Homocysteine levels are a great predictor, and folate is an important means

>of keeping them down, but B6 and folate are not the same thing. B6 is

>pyridoxine, or pyridoxamine or pyridoxal phosphate, sometimes in supplement

>form as pyridoxine hydrochloride. Folate is folate, or folacin and

>pteroylglutamic acid, generally in supplement form as folic acid. Folate

>is also sometimes referred to as vitamin B9.

I agree.

>

>I think it's important to distinguish between modern beer and old-fashioned

>beers such as " small beer " . Modern beer has a much higher alcohol content

>due to the use of hops, which also contain a potent phytoestrogen. For

>that reason, I'd venture to guess that basically any modern beer, and any

>homemade beer with hops, is contraindicated except maybe as an occasional

>indulgence.

Well, since I *can't* drink any modern beer, this might be an " indulgence " by

itself. When I used to drink " modern beer " I itched all over, though I didn't

connect it to the beer. I do use hops now though. They do increase the alcohol

content, which I'm guessing is why they became popular. But they are also very

calming in and of themselves. Kefir beer with hops is still lower in alcohol

than commercial beer, I think.

>It also bears pointing out that folate and B6 are both found in liver.

I agree. Liver is good stuff.

>And as to the purported blood sugar-regulating power of lactic acid, I

>think the jury is still out. It does appear that it might help for some

>people, but remember that lactic acid is a metabolic product of glucose

>digestion, and the liver can and does reassemble lactic acid molecules into

>glucose. Also, insulin-dependent diabetics need to count lactic acid as

>sugar -- IOW, fermenting dairy doesn't reduce their need for insulin

>regardless of how thoroughly it's fermented.

Definitely needs more research. I do find that when I eat too much sugar, I

crave acid, and it seems to help. I have kimchi with most meals though, and have

zero glycemic effect, so it's hard to test anything.

>>That is REGULAR beer! Molasses LF beer should be far better. Zinc, copper,

>>and iron at least: see below.

>

>Why would you assume molasses beer would be far better? It's likely to

>have more residual sugar.

Because, like I said above, it has more minerals. YOU worry about residual

sugar, but I don't, unless the amount is massive. Molasses beer does ferment

dry-ish, though not as dry as fast as cider. The taste is wonderful.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> Re: Finns, Fats and Heart Disease

>

>

>

>Well, since I *can't* drink any modern beer, this might be an

> " indulgence " by itself. When I used to drink " modern beer " I

>itched all over, though I didn't connect it to the beer. I do use

>hops now though. They do increase the alcohol content, which I'm

>guessing is why they became popular. But they are also very

>calming in and of themselves. Kefir beer with hops is still lower

>in alcohol than commercial beer, I think.

Speaking of the Glutenator and modern beer, do you know anyone who's tried

this gluten-free beer?

Ramapo Valley Passover Honey Beer

http://www.ramapovalleybrewery.com/

(click on " our beer " it's the first one.)

It doesn't seem to have very good reviews here:

http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/ramapo-valley-passover-honey-beer/35138/12942/

I suspect the Bards Tail will be better.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

I haven't had the opportunity to try any of the GF beers. Kaili's husband (Kaili

run's the local GF restaurant) is a brewer, and she has her likker license now,

so maybe she'll start carrying something.

I have to say though, that when I've tried the commericial ciders that everyone

raves about, I find them flat compared to homemade cider. They pretty much need

to be pastuerized, I think, to sell them, and that ruins the taste. Plus they

don't have the nice aromas you get from the bacilli. When I WAS drinking beer, I

had gone over to the lambic ales as much as I could afford them. My kefir beer

has gotten good reviews from the beer drinkers who've tried it.

Of course, this outfit ships ... I should order some and try it! Thanks!

>Speaking of the Glutenator and modern beer, do you know anyone who's tried

>this gluten-free beer?

>

>Ramapo Valley Passover Honey Beer

><http://www.ramapovalleybrewery.com/>http://www.ramapovalleybrewery.com/

>(click on " our beer " it's the first one.)

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

At 1:53 PM +0000 2/28/05, Heidi wrote (replying to whom?):

> >I think it's important to distinguish between modern beer and old-fashioned

>>beers such as " small beer " . Modern beer has a much higher alcohol content

>>due to the use of hops, which also contain a potent phytoestrogen. For

>>that reason, I'd venture to guess that basically any modern beer, and any

>>homemade beer with hops, is contraindicated except maybe as an occasional

>>indulgence.

>

>Well, since I *can't* drink any modern beer, this might be an

> " indulgence " by itself. When I used to drink " modern beer " I itched

>all over, though I didn't connect it to the beer. I do use hops now

>though. They do increase the alcohol content, which I'm guessing is

>why they became popular. But they are also very calming in and of

>themselves. Kefir beer with hops is still lower in alcohol than

>commercial beer, I think.

OK, I've brewed regular beer quite a bit, and I don't get this. Why

would hops create more alcohol? Certainly wines and mead without hops

can be more potent than beer. I thought alcohol content was an

interaction between amount of fermentable sugars and attenuating

power of the yeast. Hops are normally, I thought, flavoring agents

and preservatives.

[Guest guest]

>OK, I've brewed regular beer quite a bit, and I don't get this. Why

>would hops create more alcohol? Certainly wines and mead without hops

>can be more potent than beer. I thought alcohol content was an

>interaction between amount of fermentable sugars and attenuating

>power of the yeast. Hops are normally, I thought, flavoring agents

>and preservatives.

Well, if you are REALLY making beer the " right " way, then you get mainly a yeast

ferment, and the hops don't make a difference, so you are correct. But if you

aren't sterilizing anything and you get bacteria in the ferment, then you get a

beer that has lactobacilli AND yeast (plus other bacilli). Which adds flavor,

but the bacilli don't produce alcohol. Hops inhibit the bacilli.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>Well, if you are REALLY making beer the " right " way, then you get mainly a

>yeast ferment, and the hops don't make a difference, so you are correct.

>But if you aren't sterilizing anything and you get bacteria in the

>ferment, then you get a beer that has lactobacilli AND yeast (plus other

>bacilli). Which adds flavor, but the bacilli don't produce alcohol. Hops

>inhibit the bacilli.

It sounds to me like the " right " way is the modern way, the

laboratory/factory-style way. Historically, hops were added, as you point

out, to inhibit bacteria which competed with yeast and capped the alcohol

content of the resulting beer. But those beers, which would've been closer

to lacto-fermented, were likelier healthier and more acidic as well as less

alcoholic.

-

[Guest guest]

At 11:37 PM +0000 2/28/05, wrote:

>Message: 5

> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:03:48 -0800

> From: Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

>Subject: Re: Re: Finns, Fats and Heart Disease

>

>

>>OK, I've brewed regular beer quite a bit, and I don't get this. Why

>>would hops create more alcohol? Certainly wines and mead without hops

>>can be more potent than beer. I thought alcohol content was an

>>interaction between amount of fermentable sugars and attenuating

>>power of the yeast. Hops are normally, I thought, flavoring agents

>>and preservatives.

>

>Well, if you are REALLY making beer the " right " way, then you get

>mainly a yeast ferment, and the hops don't make a difference, so you

>are correct. But if you aren't sterilizing anything and you get

>bacteria in the ferment, then you get a beer that has lactobacilli

>AND yeast (plus other bacilli). Which adds flavor, but the bacilli

>don't produce alcohol. Hops inhibit the bacilli.

Ahhh...makes sense now. The hops aren't increasing alcohol directly,

just wiping out competition for fermentable sugars, which (all things

being equal) would result in higher alcohol. Thanks!