Guest guest Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 >OK, I understand what she is saying. It doesn't jibe with the research, >but what the heck ... Which " research " would that be, Heidi? The South Park-style crap you offered earlier? Because a lot of people seem to think that " research " and " science " are synonymous with population studies. How about the actual research into the nature and function of the digestive tract? Because that's what Gottschall's work is based on. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 At 07:12 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote: >Heidi- > >>This should get resolved soon because the low-carb folks are eating >>purified wheat gluten ... > >Are you kidding? Have you looked at these so-called " low-carb " foods -- >the protein bars, the pseudo-breads and whatnot? They're full of stuff >like maltitol, not to mention more plain old starch in the breads and >pastas and whatnot than you'd expect in a supposedly " low-carb " product. Yeah, that too! The vegetarians get a lot of the purified gluten also. > >In the mean time, I've seen no indication that this is true, and if there's >an 85% figure out there, I expect it's bogus in much the same way that the >figures stating that virtually all thyroid patients are wholly satisfied >with their low-dose T4 supplements are bogus. Hm. I notice that folks have this way, whenever they don't like a statistic, of saying " it's bogus " . I do go to gluten-free groups and participate in lists, and this seems like a real decent number. It was originally verified by doing biopsies, to see if the villi heal. Which is NOT, I grant you, the same as " robust health and a great diet " , but let's not confuse the issues. The question, is, " do the villi heal on a GF but not low starch diet, for gluten intolerant folks " . http://celiacsupport.stanford.edu/conference/pylehandout.pdf A study of rates of histologic recovery of 158 Celiacs on a gluten-free diet found: ??65% had histologic recovery (no residual villous atrophy) within 2 years ??85% within 5 years ??90% long-term ??Of the 16 patients who did not have histologic recovery long-term, 11 were diagnosed with Refractory Sprue. ??25/158 were children -> 96% recovered within 2 years and 10% long-term WajabPJ, MiejerJWR, MulderCJJ. Histologic follow-up of people with celiac disease on a gluten-free diet. Am J ClinPathol2002;118:459-63. Again, this is based on BIOPSIES. And they are not low carb, probably eating lots of junk. > > >This is a perfect example of garbage science. I mean, seriously, this >sounds like the South Park episode in which Cartman told his friends that >if you " eat " by putting food up your, err, rectum, you'll poop out our >mouth -- and he turned out to be right, and before you know it everyone was > " eating " in reverse. Do you think skin prick testing is garbage science too? Same difference. Test for an allergic response. > >If there's some evidence of an adverse immunological reaction caused when >gluten reaches the mouth or the stomach (if, for example, it were to turn >out that gluten suppresses stomach acid secretion) then you'd have something. Well it does, and yes, some people react in their mouth too. And upper digestive tract (villi) which is where the reaction causes damage. It's visible. > >Lipsticks? I don't actually know, as I pay virtually no attention to >cosmetics. But you could try asking her yourself. Or reading her book and >her various online statements. > >That said, inasmuch as virtually all allergies (with only a few specific >non-food exceptions that I can think of at the moment) seem to either >appear with digestive problems and disappear with the resumption of perfect >digestive health or are at least radically worsened by poor digestive >health, I doubt someone with a completely healed digestive tract and proper >flora would react to a steak baked in an oven that years ago had some bread >in it. Nor have I noticed people on SCD lists who have to fanatically and >obsessively avoid gluten. They get better by following the SCD, and then >if a loaf of bread looks at them crosseyed they don't keel over dead. But have they had biopsies? And many of them are likely NOT gluten intolerant .... Crohns is one that is likely NOT caused by gluten, FWIW (tho some folks are misdiagnosed). -- Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 >>OK, I understand what she is saying. It doesn't jibe with the research, >>but what the heck ... > >Which " research " would that be, Heidi? The South Park-style crap you >offered earlier? Because a lot of people seem to think that " research " and > " science " are synonymous with population studies. How about the actual >research into the nature and function of the digestive tract? Because >that's what Gottschall's work is based on. Umm ... well, I've posted a LOT of links to studies, and until you've read them and can comment on what exactly about the study isn't " science, " I'd have to say that the studies are in fact a good 25 years of in depth science. Based on stuff like taking microscopic samples before and after and during. There are hundreds of studies all showing the same thing on one side, and Gottschall argues on the other, though to my knowledge she isn't actually a reasearcher. Thing is, I don't think what she is saying is incorrect, except when she tries to argue about gluten intolerance, which is a very different animal. Your South Park analogy is amusing, but creating an analogy isn't science either. Provoking an immune reaction with an antigen is an established methodology. If you don't like the location of the challenge though, they've done lots in vitro with samples taken from the upper intestine during endoscopies. Also, the peptides that cause the immune reaction are very indigestible, so they likely DO make it to the rectum. They tried digesting said peptides using stomach acid and the normal digestive enzymes, and humans just don't digest them. Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 , >>If there's some evidence of an adverse immunological reaction caused when >>gluten reaches the mouth or the stomach (if, for example, it were to turn >>out that gluten suppresses stomach acid secretion) then you'd have >>something. Even though I was never tested my greatest improvements except for better digestion from the refined carb elimination are from the neck up. Within two weeks all of my gum inflammation went away, it seemed easier to swallow, roughness on roof of mouth went away, tightness in my right jaw and brain fog went away and my right glue ear has gotten 75% better. Heidi, > > Well it does, and yes, some people react in their mouth too. And upper > digestive tract (villi) which is where the reaction causes damage. It's > visible. Never had the rashes or other more common symptoms. There's a gut-brain article at findarticles, iirc where different foods either speeded up or slowed down movement through the intestines. So there's a body knowledge, if I dare say of the right foods for the individual metabolism. Wanita -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 2/21/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 >Never had the rashes or other more common symptoms. There's a gut-brain >article at findarticles, iirc where different foods either speeded up or >slowed down movement through the intestines. So there's a body knowledge, if >I dare say of the right foods for the individual metabolism. > >Wanita Yeah, and some of the reactions are complex. The opioid thing, for example, isn't really an allergic reaction (though it may be the allergy that causes zonulin production that allows the opioids out). And I do agree with " body knowledge " ... esp. since I have " food aversions " which are, strictly speaking, " purely psychological " . The foods that have made me ill, make me aversive just to LOOK at them. Like, I gag, purely reactive, no thought behind it. And I agree on the metabolic thing ... it's not simple or easy to categorize, like, the Piimas doing ok on one kind of corn but not on another kind of corn. (of course, me, I do best on anchovies!). Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 > Your South Park analogy is amusing, but creating an analogy isn't science either. Provoking an immune reaction with an antigen is an established methodology. If you don't like the location of the challenge though, they've done lots in vitro with samples taken from the upper intestine during endoscopies. Also, the peptides that cause the immune reaction are very indigestible, so they likely DO make it to the rectum. They tried digesting said peptides using stomach acid and the normal digestive enzymes, and humans just don't digest them. > > > > Heidi Jean In fact, it has taken a recombinant peptide (available only in a Stanford lab) to actually break up the 33 amino acid chain that makes up the " gluten " molecule. Connie H. (another gluten intolerant person - and why would I want to give up good whole wheat bread!!! It was the GF status that brought me here!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 Heidi- > >>This should get resolved soon because the low-carb folks are eating > >>purified wheat gluten ... > > > >Are you kidding? Have you looked at these so-called " low-carb " foods -- > >the protein bars, the pseudo-breads and whatnot? They're full of stuff > >like maltitol, not to mention more plain old starch in the breads and > >pastas and whatnot than you'd expect in a supposedly " low-carb " product. > >Yeah, that too! The vegetarians get a lot of the purified gluten also. OK, then, so you realize that these modern processed foods containing large amounts of gluten aren't actually a valid test? >Hm. I notice that folks have this way, whenever they don't like a >statistic, of saying " it's bogus " . There are a lot of bogus statistics out there. There are also some good ones, but given the depths of error in perfidy out there, I require detailed validation. >The question, is, " do the villi heal on a GF but not low starch diet, for >gluten intolerant folks " . > >http://celiacsupport.stanford.edu/conference/pylehandout.pdf > >A study of rates of histologic recovery of 158 Celiacs on a gluten-free >diet found: >??65% had histologic recovery (no residual villous atrophy) within 2 years >??85% within 5 years >??90% long-term >??Of the 16 patients who did not have histologic recovery long-term, 11 >were diagnosed with Refractory Sprue. >??25/158 were children -> 96% recovered within 2 years and 10% long-term > >WajabPJ, MiejerJWR, MulderCJJ. Histologic follow-up of people with celiac >disease on a gluten-free diet. Am J ClinPathol2002;118:459-63. > >Again, this is based on BIOPSIES. And they are not low carb, probably >eating lots of junk. These are interesting numbers, but without details on their diets, they're not useful. >Do you think skin prick testing is garbage science too? Same difference. >Test for an allergic response. Yes in fact I do. Skin prick testing is notoriously unreliable. Why not just mainline a turkey into a test subject's veins, and then when he dies declare he has a turkey allergy? Same thing. >Well it does, and yes, some people react in their mouth too. And upper >digestive tract (villi) which is where the reaction causes damage. It's >visible. Yes, but you're ignoring the key question: had they already developed the allergy? Because if dysbiosis impairs digestion and leads to allergies, obviously you can mouth test and villi test all you want, and you'll see reactions until the cows come home without ever establishing a true chain of cause and effect. >But have they had biopsies? Some, yes. >And many of them are likely NOT gluten intolerant ... Crohns is one that >is likely NOT caused by gluten, FWIW (tho some folks are misdiagnosed). AFAIK a fair number of people flunk the IgA test for gluten intolerace. And why do you seem to assume that the SCD is designed just for Crohns? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 >Yes, but you're ignoring the key question: had they already developed the >allergy? Because if dysbiosis impairs digestion and leads to allergies, >obviously you can mouth test and villi test all you want, and you'll see >reactions until the cows come home without ever establishing a true chain >of cause and effect. Celiac was first discovered in babies. It frequently develops in babies that are ONLY breast-fed. It was so common in babies that until recently, no one believed it even existed in adults. Now, why would a breast-fed baby get dysbiosis? Not from too much starch of the wrong kind. Some weird thing must exist in the breast milk. After many many years of figuring this out, it turns out that trace amounts of gluten in the breast milk make the babies sick, and they die. Nowadays the babies live, because the babies get antibiotics which correct the dysbiosis. But you can't tell me that a breast fed baby gets dysbiosis from eating too much starch. >AFAIK a fair number of people flunk the IgA test for gluten >intolerace. And why do you seem to assume that the SCD is designed just >for Crohns? I assume that because of your comments earlier, that she designed the diet to treat a kid with Crohns, and that it was especially useful for Chrohns. And comments I read about the book. As for " flunk " the IgA test, what do you mean by that? That they have IgA, or not? It is true a fair number of people are IgA intolerant to gliadin ... they all have the same genes if they are. > Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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