Re: Mc's to pay $8.5 million in trans fat lawsuit

[Guest guest]

Mike-

>http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/02/11/transfats.settlement.reut/index.html

I didn't realize that trans fats " have been found to be as unhealthy as

pure cholesterol " . Yikes.

Oh well, the depressing state of the press and public knowledge

notwithstanding, I suppose any measure which encourages companies to make

their products less harmful is a step in the right direction.

-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/23/05 3:40:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,

pratickmukherjee@... writes:

> While I don't agree with the idea that one should go about life suing

> everything and

> everybody, some lawsuits are justified.

> The dangers of trans fats have been known for several years now, and if

> Mcs and

> other fast food empires did not test their products or chose to ignore the

> results, a

> lawsuit is justified.

> If they deliberately suppressed the results of studies of their own foods,

> then even more

> so.

>

> My $0.02 CAD

_____

I think it depends on what mechanism makes hydrogenated oils harmful, and

more research is needed, from what I've seen. If trans fats are toxic in

significant amounts, then there might be grounds for a lawsuit. But if the most

harmful thing about hydrogenated oils is that the EFAs are destroyed and they

crowd out foods that do have EFAs, then there isn't.

What's clear is that the more people eat hydrogenated oil, the worse their

health is. But it's not entirely clear why.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Idol [mailto:Idol@...]

>

> Mike-

>

> >http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/02/11/transfats.settlement.reut/i

> ndex.html

>

> I didn't realize that trans fats " have been found to be as

> unhealthy as pure cholesterol " . Yikes.

I sent e-mail to Reuters yesterday to ask exactly which study it was that

established this rather odd inequality. I'll let you know if I hear

anything.

[Guest guest]

_____

From: Idol [mailto:Idol@...]

Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:03 PM

Subject: Re: Mc's to pay $8.5 million in trans fat

lawsuit

Mike-

>http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/02/11/transfats.settlement.reut/inde

x.html

I didn't realize that trans fats " have been found to be as

unhealthy as

pure cholesterol " . Yikes.

Oh well, the depressing state of the press and public knowledge

notwithstanding, I suppose any measure which encourages companies

to make

their products less harmful is a step in the right direction.

-

---------------

,

I believe it's a step in the wrong direction. Let me explain.

Poverty is the source of all bad health. Frivolous exaggerated

lawsuits make business insurance go up, thereby increasing the

cost of living for all - the cost of goods, the cost of starting

a small business, etc. This is just an extension of America's

current prohibition craze: ban anything that poses a risk. Let

the trend continue and the only good way to live will be to work

for/with the gov or an insurance co.

-Mark

[Guest guest]

-

> > I didn't realize that trans fats " have been found to be as

> > unhealthy as pure cholesterol " . Yikes.

>

>I sent e-mail to Reuters yesterday to ask exactly which study it was that

>established this rather odd inequality. I'll let you know if I hear

>anything.

LOL! Maybe it's a sign that I'm too resigned to the cruddy way things are

that it didn't even occur to me to write Reuters. Please, do let us know

if they get back to you with some kind of excuse or explanation.

-

[Guest guest]

>The dangers of trans fats have been known for several years now, and if

Mcs and

>other fast food empires did not test their products or chose to ignore the

results, a

>lawsuit is justified.

>If they deliberately suppressed the results of studies of their own foods, then

even more

>so.

>

>My $0.02 CAD

>

The NY Times has a huge article on trans fats and how the food industry

is trying to find some " healthy " alternative to hydrogenated vegetable

oil, as labeling laws take effect next year in US. Taste seems to be

the big concern. No surprise there. How healthy does anyone expect

highly processed fast food French fries and donuts to be anyway?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/13/business/13transfat.html

" At least 30,000 and as many as 100,000 cardiac deaths a year in the

United States could be prevented if people replaced trans fat with

healthier nonhydrogenated polyunsaturated or monounsaturated oils,

according to a 1999 joint report by researchers at the Harvard School of

Public Health and the Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston.

" This and other studies led the government's top medical advisers for

the Institute of Medicine at the National Academy of Sciences to declare

in 2002 that they could not determine a healthful limit of trans fat, as

they had for other dietary fats. The following year the government

approved the labeling law.

" The $500 billion food processing industry has long defended trans fat,

starting in the 1970's when scientists first raised concerns. But with

the new labeling requirement looming and lawmakers searching for ways to

hold food companies responsible for their customers' health, getting rid

of it has become an obsession. "

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>The media is partly to blame for the current levels of trans fats in processed

foods.

>Since the '70s, they have been so busy lynching saturated fats and cholesterol

that they

>allowed the processed food manufacturers to sneak the trans fats past them -

classic case

>of " tunnel vision " .

>

>And now all of a sudden, they have woken up to the " dangers " of trans fats -

surprise

>surprise.

>

>

Yeah, Enig's been harping on trans fats since the 70s to no avail.

Now all of a sudden the media cries, " Oh trans fats are evil! Let's eat

canola and soy oil instead. "

>In my opinion, popular media *needs* scapegoats in every field - in politics,

sometimes

>to is Democrats, sometimes Republicans; in foreign affairs, it is either them

Communists

>or them Fascists, or Saddam or somebody else.

>Similarly, in health, it is first saturated fat, and now this.

>

>This ruling is a step in the right direction, but only a very small one.

>

>I also suspect that this could be a classic case of the frog trying to jump out

of the

>well - one step forward and two steps backwards.

>If this leads to the manufacturers replacing hydrogenated oils with

over-processed,

>rancid vegetable oils (like non-hydrogenated margarine), then we are simply

replacing one

>evil with another.

>

>

Well, Pratick, the article I linked was touting hydrogenated fats as

being so stable that they could withstand several reheatings (yuck).

Talk about rancidity! I wonder just how many batches of fries get put

through the same fat supply. I shutter to think. But then again,

health is really not the concern of food business, profits are. I say,

eat whole foods that don't come in packages with labels and forget the

media and marketing that changes like the weather. That step alone will

do wonders for many SAD folk.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>If trans fats are toxic in

>significant amounts, then there might be grounds for a lawsuit. But if

>the most

>harmful thing about hydrogenated oils is that the EFAs are destroyed and they

>crowd out foods that do have EFAs, then there isn't.

The amount of harm that PHO appears to cause seems well enough out of

proportion to its displacement of EFAs that EFA-supplanting seems unlikely

to be the only means by which PHO harms people.

-

[Guest guest]

Quoting Pratick Mukherjee <pratickmukherjee@...>:

> --- mark robert <colowe@...> wrote:

> > I believe it's a step in the wrong direction. Let me explain.

> > Poverty is the source of all bad health.

>

> I disagree.

> The most prosperous of nations is also the most sickest.

I wouldn't say that. Many African nations probably have sicker populations

than the US.

> Where poverty creates bad health because of nutritional deficiency and

> lack of food in

> general, prosperity creates its own deficiencies (eating fast food,

> eating out every day

> of the week) and so on.

Prosperity has not, in and of itself, caused poor nutrition. The problem is

that we developed the technology to process foods in harmful ways before we

developed a theory of nutrition necessary to understand why we shouldn't eat

those foods.

> While I don't agree with the idea that one should go about life suing

> everything and

> everybody, some lawsuits are justified.

> The dangers of trans fats have been known for several years now, and if

> Mcs and

> other fast food empires did not test their products or chose to ignore

> the results, a

> lawsuit is justified.

Mc's is a restaurant chain. They take food ingredients--every one of

them approved by the FDA--and combine them to make food. I'm not aware of

anything in legislative or case law in the United States or elsewhere that

requires restaurants to conduct safety tests for their recipes. And didn't

Mc's use saturated fat until until 10-15 years ago, when the

CSPI(sic) pressured them into changing? Why not sue the CSPI instead?

Bottom line: Partially hydrogenated vegetable oil is a perfectly legal food

ingredient that has been in widespread use for several decades. Mc's

didn't invent it. They had nothing to do with its introduction into the

food supply. They didn't even want to use it. This is just another legal

shakedown of an unpopular target with deep pockets.

--

Berg

bberg@...

[Guest guest]

_____

From: Pratick Mukherjee [mailto:pratickmukherjee@...]

Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 3:32 PM

Subject: RE: Mc's to pay $8.5 million in trans fat

lawsuit

--- mark robert <colowe@...> wrote:

> I believe it's a step in the wrong direction. Let me explain.

> Poverty is the source of all bad health.

I disagree.

The most prosperous of nations is also the most sickest.

Poverty certainly does beget bad health because of poor nutrition

(Africa being an

example).

But poverty doesn't have exclusive claim on bad health - even

prosperity does.

It just creates a different type of bad health.

Where poverty creates bad health because of nutritional

deficiency and lack of food in

general, prosperity creates its own deficiencies (eating fast

food, eating out every day

of the week) and so on.

> Frivolous exaggerated

> lawsuits make business insurance go up, thereby increasing the

> cost of living for all - the cost of goods, the cost of

starting

> a small business, etc. This is just an extension of America's

> current prohibition craze: ban anything that poses a risk. Let

> the trend continue and the only good way to live will be to

work

> for/with the gov or an insurance co.

While I don't agree with the idea that one should go about life

suing everything and

everybody, some lawsuits are justified.

The dangers of trans fats have been known for several years now,

and if Mcs and

other fast food empires did not test their products or chose to

ignore the results, a

lawsuit is justified.

If they deliberately suppressed the results of studies of their

own foods, then even more

so.

My $0.02 CAD

-------------

,

Let me refine my statement. " Poverty causes more bad health than

prosperity. " Or inversely: " Prosperity causes more good health

than poverty. "

http://www.aegis.com/news/ap/2002/AP020916.html

Hydrogenated fats are in thousands of food products. Are all

their manufacturers now fair game for lawsuit judgments? Of what

exactly is Mc's guilty?

Historically-speaking, one of the worst things for health is

large government and over-regulated economies.

-Mark

[Guest guest]

_____

From: Deanna [mailto:hl@...]

Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 3:48 PM

Subject: Re: Mc's to pay $8.5 million in trans fat

lawsuit

>The dangers of trans fats have been known for several years now,

and if Mcs and

>other fast food empires did not test their products or chose to

ignore the results, a

>lawsuit is justified.

>If they deliberately suppressed the results of studies of their

own foods, then even more

>so.

>

>My $0.02 CAD

>

The NY Times has a huge article on trans fats and how the food

industry

is trying to find some " healthy " alternative to hydrogenated

vegetable

oil, as labeling laws take effect next year in US. Taste seems

to be

the big concern. No surprise there. How healthy does anyone

expect

highly processed fast food French fries and donuts to be anyway?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/13/business/13transfat.html

" At least 30,000 and as many as 100,000 cardiac deaths a year in

the

United States could be prevented if people replaced trans fat

with

healthier nonhydrogenated polyunsaturated or monounsaturated

oils,

according to a 1999 joint report by researchers at the Harvard

School of

Public Health and the Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston.

" This and other studies led the government's top medical advisers

for

the Institute of Medicine at the National Academy of Sciences to

declare

in 2002 that they could not determine a healthful limit of trans

fat, as

they had for other dietary fats. The following year the

government

approved the labeling law.

" The $500 billion food processing industry has long defended

trans fat,

starting in the 1970's when scientists first raised concerns. But

with

the new labeling requirement looming and lawmakers searching for

ways to

hold food companies responsible for their customers' health,

getting rid

of it has become an obsession. "

Deanna

----------------

And would we be healthier if all unhealthy items were banned?

Pie, cake, candy, salt, browned food, tobacco, alcohol, caffeine,

nutmeg, soft drinks, ad infinitum? No, we would not. Because

there would be so much prohibition-induced black-market crime and

violence, we would all be killed.

To all closet prohibitionists: feel free to eat as you wish (and

not as you wish), but get a clue about America and freedom and

the Constitution and quit trying to force your " health " codes on

others - force is one of the most unhealthy things of all.

-Mark

[Guest guest]

_____

From: Deanna [mailto:hl@...]

Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 5:29 PM

Subject: Re: Mc's to pay $8.5 million in trans fat

lawsuit

>The media is partly to blame for the current levels of trans

fats in processed foods.

>Since the '70s, they have been so busy lynching saturated fats

and cholesterol that they

>allowed the processed food manufacturers to sneak the trans fats

past them - classic case

>of " tunnel vision " .

>

>And now all of a sudden, they have woken up to the " dangers " of

trans fats - surprise

>surprise.

>

>

Yeah, Enig's been harping on trans fats since the 70s to no

avail.

Now all of a sudden the media cries, " Oh trans fats are evil!

Let's eat

canola and soy oil instead. "

>In my opinion, popular media *needs* scapegoats in every field -

in politics, sometimes

>to is Democrats, sometimes Republicans; in foreign affairs, it

is either them Communists

>or them Fascists, or Saddam or somebody else.

>Similarly, in health, it is first saturated fat, and now this.

>

>This ruling is a step in the right direction, but only a very

small one.

>

>I also suspect that this could be a classic case of the frog

trying to jump out of the

>well - one step forward and two steps backwards.

>If this leads to the manufacturers replacing hydrogenated oils

with over-processed,

>rancid vegetable oils (like non-hydrogenated margarine), then we

are simply replacing one

>evil with another.

>

>

Well, Pratick, the article I linked was touting hydrogenated fats

as

being so stable that they could withstand several reheatings

(yuck).

Talk about rancidity! I wonder just how many batches of fries

get put

through the same fat supply. I shutter to think. But then

again,

health is really not the concern of food business, profits are.

I say,

eat whole foods that don't come in packages with labels and

forget the

media and marketing that changes like the weather. That step

alone will

do wonders for many SAD folk.

Deanna

Here, here! Enough of this mentality: " dear government, please

make laws to protect me from myself; dear courts, please let me

blame someone else for my own bad choices so I can feel less

guilty and be real rich " .

-Mark

[Guest guest]

>Here, here! Enough of this mentality: " dear government, please

>make laws to protect me from myself; dear courts, please let me

>blame someone else for my own bad choices so I can feel less

>guilty and be real rich " .

>

>

>

>

>

>-Mark

>

Mark,

I don't follow the USDA nutritional guidelines. Nor do I blame anyone

else for my particular food choices. I actually crave dandelion greens

often, and I haven't eaten fast food once in over 20 years. Perhaps the

free market should reign supreme in the dietary sense. Subsidies may

well be at the heart of our disastrous food triangle (2-d not 3-d)

approach to health. But I never claimed to be a victim of bad policy, I

am not so stupid to trust the powers du jour.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/23/05 5:26:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, hl@...

writes:

> Well, Pratick, the article I linked was touting hydrogenated fats as

> being so stable that they could withstand several reheatings (yuck).

> Talk about rancidity!

____

When they say " withstand " I would assume the mean be subjected to the

reheatings without becoming rancid.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/23/05 6:06:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Idol@... writes:

> The amount of harm that PHO appears to cause seems well enough out of

> proportion to its displacement of EFAs that EFA-supplanting seems unlikely

> to be the only means by which PHO harms people.

____

What do you mean by " amount " ? You mean the numbers of different conditions

it causes? The magnitude of them? The magnitude in proportion to the amount

of trans fat?

I looked for information a year or two ago on this and sent a bunch of

studies to the list but didn't come across much of anything on the mechanism,

and

what you say wasn't clear to me in the research I looked at. Newer research may

have surfaced that I haven't been keeping up with, but I've constantly

prodded people on this and other lists for any knowledge they have of such

research

and no one's offered anything.

From what I've seen, there is a close parallel between the diseases trans

fats contribute to and EFA deficiency. There is also an inverse correlation

between trans fat intake and EFA deficiency. Those two things together seem to

pin any correlations of trans fats with diseases that are known to be caused by

EFA deficiency on the EFA deficiency until further evidence contradicts.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian