Re: Commercial Lard vs. Veg. Oil (was Anchovy experiment)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/20/05 10:38:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,

t.l.jeanne@... writes:

> > I bet you're right. So the question is: Which is the lesser of the two

> > evils, commercial vegetable oil or commercial lard for frying those

> > tortilla chips we are going to indulge in from time to time?

____

Partially hydrogenated lard would contain less trans fats because it has a

higher saturated fat content, which can't be converted into trans fat. It would

also have a better micronutrient profile, assuming hydrogenation doesn't

destroy all the nutrients (I'm guessing it doesn't.)

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/21/05 8:26:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,

mfjewett@... writes:

> >Partially hydrogenated lard would contain less trans fats because it has a

> >higher saturated fat content, which can't be converted into trans fat. It

> would

> >also have a better micronutrient profile, assuming hydrogenation doesn't

> >destroy all the nutrients (I'm guessing it doesn't.)

> >

> >Chris

> Last time I looked at lard in the grocery store, it was lard MIXED WITH

> partially hydrogenated vegetable oil. So I guess your theory wouldn't

> apply, unfortunately.

_____

I don't see how it changes. Lard mixed with partially hydrogenated vegetable

oil would contain less PHVO than pure PHVO. And if the lard *isn't* PH-ated

in this mixture than it would probably contain even less trans fats than

PH-ated lard.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/21/05 10:30:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,

mfjewett@... writes:

> >> >Partially hydrogenated lard would contain less trans fats because it

> has a

> >> >higher saturated fat content, which can't be converted into trans fat.

> It

> >> would

> >> >also have a better micronutrient profile, assuming hydrogenation

doesn'

> t

> >> >destroy all the nutrients (I'm guessing it doesn't.)

> >> >

> >> >Chris

> >

> >> Last time I looked at lard in the grocery store, it was lard MIXED WITH

> >> partially hydrogenated vegetable oil. So I guess your theory

wouldn'

> t

> >> apply, unfortunately.

> >_____

> >

> >I don't see how it changes. Lard mixed with partially hydrogenated

> vegetable

> >oil would contain less PHVO than pure PHVO. And if the lard *isn't* PH-

> ated

> >in this mixture than it would probably contain even less trans fats than

> >PH-ated lard.

> True. I thought you were referring to hydrogenating the lard itself.

____

I was. But the point was which was better, and my take was that since lard

is higher in saturated fats which can't be converted to trans fats, it would

have less trans fats. That's true whether pure lard itself is hydrogenated, or

a mixture of hydrogenated lard and hydrogenated veg. oil, or a mixture of

non-hydrogenated lard and hydrogenated veg. oil. All three will have more

saturated fats and less trans fats and a better micronutrient profile.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/21/05 10:38:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, hl@...

writes:

> But what happens during high heat frying? I would think even the lard

> that's been hydrogenated would still beat chemically extracted vegetable

> oil, but then what do I know? *Don't* answer that.

> I think I'll eat plain corn tortillas with salsa next time I eat out.

____

If your question is whether the lard-fried stuff is *good*, then no, probably

not. But without doubt it is better than vegetable oil, and you might want

to make sure those corn tortillas were baked and not fried if you want any

benefit from eating them.

It all depends what the pigs were fed. Most lard where the pigs are fed high

amounts of grains and additional vegetable oil will be high in PUFA and

therefore have a significant portion of oxidizable fat exposed to high

temperatures

in frying. However, the lard will also have a high long-chain saturated fat

content that will protect those PUFAs to a certain degree, and perhaps have a

high vitamin D content which I've read is an antioxidant and would therefore

offer further protection.

The vegetable oil will contain:

-- more trans fats

-- more oxidizable pufa

-- less saturated fats

-- less antioxidants

The plain corn tortillas are probably high-heat fried in PHVO so I'm not sure

they'd offer an advantage.

As an aside, we use this stuff we call " lard " to grease up parts of the forms

at work, that we get from restaurants. I don't see how it could be " lard "

since few restaurants actually use lard anymore and most use PHVO for frying.

So it is probably used PVHO, which I've mentioned once but don't bother

arguing. It looks nothing like lard, but who knows, since it's used.

Anyway, I find that getting this stuff and the form oil on my hands and arms

is very irritating. It creates a burning sensation soon after getting it on

me, and then leaves patches of eczema that don't go away. Worse, it seems that

the more I get in some exposed areas, the more that pop up in other areas

that weren't exposed. One more reason to find a new job! I can't imagine what

kind of nasty chemicals, irritative and carcinogenic byproducts of frying and

hydrogenating the oils and frying the bits of food that dissolve into them are

rubbing up against my skin. Ick.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

At 10:44 PM 2/20/05 EST, you wrote:

>

>Partially hydrogenated lard would contain less trans fats because it has a

>higher saturated fat content, which can't be converted into trans fat. It

would

>also have a better micronutrient profile, assuming hydrogenation doesn't

>destroy all the nutrients (I'm guessing it doesn't.)

>

>Chris

Last time I looked at lard in the grocery store, it was lard MIXED WITH

partially hydrogenated vegetable oil. So I guess your theory wouldn't

apply, unfortunately.

MFJ

If I have to be a grownup, can I at least be telekinetic too?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/21/05 11:18:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, hl@...

writes:

> I was thinking in terms of less evil. Actually, I make corn tortillas

> sometimes. It's masa harina, lime and water mixed up, formed into

> balls, smashed with a tortilla press, and dry cooked on a skillet for 2

> minutes each side. Corn tortillas are fat-free, and even restaurants

> serve them this way, sometimes in lieu of chips. These are soft,

> pliable and warm. The corn tortillas are fried for tacos and such, and

> are then crispy, like chips.

_____

Oh. I didn't know that " corn tortilla " implied the non-fried form. Tortilla

chips are fried and made of corn, and hard taco shells are fried corn

tortillas, aren't they? But I don't know much about Latin food.

Yeah, I'd agree those would be the least evil. Of course, who knows, maybe

some restaurants use a local source of *good* lard. Not likely, but certainly

possible, and worth asking about.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/21/05 12:56:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, rbjr@...

writes:

> Who do you work for and what do you do for them? I spent 3 years building

> concrete forms on high rise buildings in Atlanta. We used a rather nasty

> smelling spray on form release agent. That was a fair while ago, at this

> stage of the game.

____

I make concrete steps (mostly, also curbs and some other small stuff) for a

local subsidiary of OldCastle which is a large transnational corporation based

in Ireland.

We use some spray-on petroleum-based form oil, but this is also supplemented

with " lard " on certain areas of certain forms that are particularly sticky.

The " lard " is brushed on with a paintbrush, while the form oil is sprayed on

with some kind of spray gun, probably the same stuff you used.

The spray-on form oil smells pretty gross but I don't notice it much since

I'm covered in it all day. It comes out as a mist, so it inevitably floats

backwards onto the person spraying. My pants get damp with it over the day,

which

sometimes produces a mild rash on my legs. My arms also get hairless patches

which the lead man in my shop says is from the oil seeping into the hair

follicles. The " lard " smells better than the form oil. Sometimes it smells

like

donuts :-P

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/21/05 11:50:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,

lazlo75501@... writes:

> What happens with the large amount of monounsaturated animal fat in lard?

> Is monounsaturated fat more prone to the effect of hydrogenation than

> say polyunsaturated fats?

_____

Both monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids can be hydrogenated and

can also isomerize into the trans form during partial hydrogenation. Lard

certainly isn't safe to hydrogenate and if it were it would also be pointless to

hydrogenate, but it does contain a substantial amount of saturated fatty

acids, which cannot form trans isomers, so it would contain less trans fatty

acids

if partially hydrogenated than would partially hydrogenated vegetable oil.

_____

> Heres a weird question. Can SCFA's be hydrogenated? It would be strange

> if vinegar and lactic acid which are SCFA's could be hydrogenated.

_____

I don't think the question is weird nor do I think it would be strange if

acetic acid or lactic acid could be hydrogenated.

Any unsaturated hydrocabon can be hydrogenated and can also form trans

isomers. However, neither lactic acid nor acetic acid are unsaturated, so they

cannot.

I assume by " vinegar, " which is not an acid, but a solution of various

chemicals including acids, you mean " acetic acid " which is the predominant acid

in

vinegar. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find my copy of _Know Your Fats_

anywhere, so I can't check to see if Enig considers either of these to be fatty

acids, but I don't think either of them would normally be considered fatty

acids.

Going off memory, I think a SCFA is 3-12 carbons, of which acetic acid falls

short (2 carbons). Lactic acid has three carbons, but it also has an alcohol

group on the n-2 carbon, whereas fatty acids are usually considered to be

carboxylic acids with simple hydrocarbon chains. The alcohol group does happen

to

give lactic acid the characteristic ratio of C, H, and O, CH2O, by which

carbohydrates are defined, and since lactic acid is basically half a glucose

molecule, and its a derivative of glucose metabolism as well as a precursor to

glucose, lactic acid is generally classified as a carbohydrate.

Also, both of them are predominantly water-soluble, not lipid-soluble, a

further reason why it would be odd to classify them as " fatty. " The

characteristic non-polar hydrocarbon tail of a fatty acid is what makes it

" fatty, " or

lipid-associable. Short-chain fatty acids would be more soluble in water than

would longer-chain fatty acids, but they'd contain two or more carbons that

didn't have any polar bonds, whereas acetic acid has only one non-polar carbon

and

another with two hydrogen-bonding groups, and lactic acid has one non-polar

carbon, two carbons that have hydrogen-bonding groups, and three

hydrogen-bonding groups altogether. The absence of the alcohol group on the n-2

carbon of

lactic acid would allow for a non-polar tail that would consist of the majority

of carbons of the molecule.

Either way, neither lactic acid nor acetic acid contain any

double-carbon-bonds, and therefore cannot undergo trans/cis isomerism or

saturation by hydrogen.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

At 10:16 AM 2/21/05 EST, you wrote:

>

>In a message dated 2/21/05 8:26:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,

>mfjewett@... writes:

>

>> >Partially hydrogenated lard would contain less trans fats because it

has a

>> >higher saturated fat content, which can't be converted into trans fat.

It

>> would

>> >also have a better micronutrient profile, assuming hydrogenation doesn't

>> >destroy all the nutrients (I'm guessing it doesn't.)

>> >

>> >Chris

>

>> Last time I looked at lard in the grocery store, it was lard MIXED WITH

>> partially hydrogenated vegetable oil. So I guess your theory wouldn't

>> apply, unfortunately.

>_____

>

>I don't see how it changes. Lard mixed with partially hydrogenated

vegetable

>oil would contain less PHVO than pure PHVO. And if the lard *isn't* PH-ated

>in this mixture than it would probably contain even less trans fats than

>PH-ated lard.

True. I thought you were referring to hydrogenating the lard itself.

MFJ

If I have to be a grownup, can I at least be telekinetic too?

[Guest guest]

>>I don't see how it changes. Lard mixed with partially hydrogenated

>>

>>

>vegetable

>

>

>>oil would contain less PHVO than pure PHVO. And if the lard *isn't* PH-ated

>>in this mixture than it would probably contain even less trans fats than

>>PH-ated lard.

>>

>>

>

>

>True. I thought you were referring to hydrogenating the lard itself.

>

But what happens during high heat frying? I would think even the lard

that's been hydrogenated would still beat chemically extracted vegetable

oil, but then what do I know? *Don't* answer that.

I think I'll eat plain corn tortillas with salsa next time I eat out.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>If your question is whether the lard-fried stuff is *good*, then no, probably

>not. But without doubt it is better than vegetable oil, and you might want

>to make sure those corn tortillas were baked and not fried if you want any

>benefit from eating them.

>

I was thinking in terms of less evil. Actually, I make corn tortillas

sometimes. It's masa harina, lime and water mixed up, formed into

balls, smashed with a tortilla press, and dry cooked on a skillet for 2

minutes each side. Corn tortillas are fat-free, and even restaurants

serve them this way, sometimes in lieu of chips. These are soft,

pliable and warm. The corn tortillas are fried for tacos and such, and

are then crispy, like chips.

This alternative is least evil for the rare eat out treat that this

(usually) paleo eater indulges in. I mean you've got to have something

to eat the salsa with, unless you want to drink it as a soup. But I

like mine hot, so that's just not an option.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

> I was. But the point was which was better, and my take was that since lard

> is higher in saturated fats which can't be converted to trans fats, it would

> have less trans fats. That's true whether pure lard itself is hydrogenated, or

> a mixture of hydrogenated lard and hydrogenated veg. oil, or a mixture of

> non-hydrogenated lard and hydrogenated veg. oil. All three will have more

> saturated fats and less trans fats and a better micronutrient profile.

> Chris

What happens with the large amount of monounsaturated animal fat in lard?

Is monounsaturated fat more prone to the effect of hydrogenation than

say polyunsaturated fats?

Heres a weird question. Can SCFA's be hydrogenated? It would be strange

if vinegar and lactic acid which are SCFA's could be hydrogenated.

Darrell

[Guest guest]

Hi

> Anyway, I find that getting this stuff and the form oil on my

> hands and arms

> is very irritating.

Who do you work for and what do you do for them? I spent 3 years building

concrete forms on high rise buildings in Atlanta. We used a rather nasty

smelling spray on form release agent. That was a fair while ago, at this

stage of the game.

Ron

[Guest guest]

>Oh. I didn't know that " corn tortilla " implied the non-fried form. Tortilla

>chips are fried and made of corn, and hard taco shells are fried corn

>tortillas, aren't they? But I don't know much about Latin food.

>

>Yeah, I'd agree those would be the least evil. Of course, who knows, maybe

>some restaurants use a local source of *good* lard. Not likely, but certainly

>possible, and worth asking about.

>

>Chris

>

That's okay, Yankee, you aren't expected to know much about Latin food.

I bet there's good pickins by way of authentic Mexican food up your

way, though. I have lived in parts of the southwest where all the

billboards are in Spanish, lol. And each state - CA, AZ, NM, TX - has

its own unique Mexican food flavor. Some of the better restaurants will

offer chips and salsa AND corn tortillas and butter. Now what exactly

does one ask when inquiring about lard? " Where does your lard come

from? " " Do you use commercial lard? " ¿Si habla Ingles? These places

are not likely to know NT principles, even if some of the older ma and

pa places incorporate them.

I have yet to make Sally Fallon's salsa, of which I have heard nothing

but good. And ya know, she has quite an offering of south of the border

goodies in the book. It is expensive and not always the best quality

eating out. I think the convenience is what most people desire, but

it's easy to prepare this stuff, and cheap too.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Hi

Sounds a little tedious and a lot unhealthy. But then you already knew

that, right?

In a couple of weeks I'm going to respond to a question that was asked of me

a while back about detoxes I have been doing over the past three years. I

have some photographic evidence of what a lifetime of exposure to industrial

chemicals can do to your body. Perhaps your clean and appropriate diet will

keep your body detoxed as you go, but then again, the level of exposure you

are describing below is a pretty heavy insult to your system.

Ron

> > Who do you work for and what do you do for them? I spent 3

> years building

> > concrete forms on high rise buildings in Atlanta. We used

> a rather nasty

> > smelling spray on form release agent. That was a fair

> while ago, at this

> > stage of the game.

> ____

>

> I make concrete steps (mostly, also curbs and some other

> small stuff) for a

> local subsidiary of OldCastle which is a large transnational

> corporation based

> in Ireland.

>

> We use some spray-on petroleum-based form oil, but this is

[snip]