Re: POLITICS: Free Trade vs. Slavery (was Having Babies)

November 28, 2004

>

>>> The fact that you have

> overcome your disability to form an elitist attitude towards those who can't

> thrive under their disabilities is unfortunate.<<

>

> ~~~What?! I never said anything about anyone else's disabilities. I was

> talking about attitude about work, not disability. (If you knew me at all,

> you'd see where it is a ridiculous assessment to say I have an elitest

> attitude. I live a very simple life and philosophy and spirituality are much

> more important to me than anything that has any elite connotation.) Where did

> I even mention anyone else's disabilities? I was talking about work ethics,

> not disabilities. I can only guess that you are responding out of your own

> defensiveness about things that have nothing to do with this thread. You

> don't seem to be able to address what has been said. I am quite miserable

> with MS too, but that has nothing to do with my outlook on life in general. I

> see nothing to be ashamed of in my optimistic attitude!

>

> You are verging on flaming, and you have been from your very first remark to

> my statements. You've put me in the position of having to defend myself

> against you for statements I never made, and I don't continue to do that.

> Please don't put words into my mouth.

> Carol

>

I continue to read your own words the same way.

" ~~~IMO, the term 'meaningful work' shows how jaded we have become as

Americans. It used to be that any work that put food on the table was

meaningful, because it meant you stayed alive. You were bartering with your

labor to get goods. Once you get that attitude, which is the natural

attitude, you don't think about things like 'meaningful work', and you don't

consider work that sustains life as slavery.

Carol "

" ~~~Before too many more thoughtless, 'knee-jerk' reactions occur, (which

are another problem with human kind, both ancient and modern, myself

included), let me expound a little about my prvious statement. The " Wow "

about it is that you can't see what I'm saying, in a philosophical vein

because, it's very true. Think of people who get the chance to go from

third world countries to a place where they can actually work and receive

wages for their labor. (Or even the immigrants to this country from Europe

in our early American times.) They are/were thrilled with the chance to

work for money or goods, no matter what the job. Opportunity is what was

important to them. "

" I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who can no longer go out to

work, because of my disability, (MS, or whatever this horrendous disease

is), and am presently stuck living on a very low income. In this situation,

(and at my more advanced age - will be 60 on Christmas Day), I have the

'luxury' of time on my hands, and a little more wisdom than those whose time

is filled with 'getting ahead'. I have this time with which to look at the

world in totally different and more logical terms. I'm also not mired in

the arguments about labor laws, so I don't even think in those terms. "

November 28, 2004

>>Why do so many people suffer under

this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?<<

~~~Because we have become so spoiled that we think everything should be handed

to us on a silver platter without having to 'invent a better mouse trap' so to

speak.

>>I think that you trivilialize

the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many are so

involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge about

how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of those in

dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their bliss.<<

~~~No one is trivializing anything. But, would it be better for you if those of

us who can see beyond the victim attitude, hide our optimism, in order to make

the 'victims' feel validated in their would be victimization? I don't think so.

I think they'd be better off to change their attitude and find a way out of the

situation they hate so much, instead of continuing to whine about it, and hoping

to get everyone else to whine along with them.

Carol

November 28, 2004

If anyone does feel God-led to help us in particular, please talk to

me about it off list.

Otherwise, for those who can afford to, why not find an unused coat or

blanket, or buy a cheap one, and donate it to a local church clothes

closet, or Salvation Army. There are plenty of people and families who

would greatly appreciate your thoughtful act.

Catz

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:09:38 -0000, Aven <twyllightmoon@...> wrote:

>

> Just tell us the sizes you need - the natural fiber

> part might be a little harder - but I'm sure with

> everyone on this list, we could come up with the

> necessary items.

> Aven

November 28, 2004

>

>>> Why do so many people suffer under

> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?<<

>

> ~~~Because we have become so spoiled that we think everything should be handed

> to us on a silver platter without having to 'invent a better mouse trap' so to

> speak.

>

>>> I think that you trivilialize

> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many are so

> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge about

> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of those in

> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their bliss.<<

>

> ~~~No one is trivializing anything. But, would it be better for you if those

> of us who can see beyond the victim attitude, hide our optimism, in order to

> make the 'victims' feel validated in their would be victimization? I don't

> think so. I think they'd be better off to change their attitude and find a

> way out of the situation they hate so much, instead of continuing to whine

> about it, and hoping to get everyone else to whine along with them.

> Carol

>

The fact that you can conceptualize your life in a way in which you are not

a victim does not mean that in the normal use of the term, there ARE victims

in life. It is your paragraph above, and similar sentiments, and your

feeling that you have achieved some additional wisdom that allows you to

look down on those more unfortunate in life, that I call elitism. The very

notion that you would call it whining if a person complained about a life

situation where they were struggling to support a family under very adverse

circumstances, and imply (pretty much say directly) that we should get past

thinking about such lowly matters as labor injustices, is the very attitude

that validates such injustices.

November 28, 2004

>

>>> I continue to read your own words the same way.<<

>

> ~~~Then I pity you, because you are stuck in your own negativity.

I appreciate your pity.

> And, you

> certainly don't know what an elitest is.

> Carol

>

Actually, I think that I do.

November 28, 2004

>>I continue to read your own words the same way.<<

~~~Then I pity you, because you are stuck in your own negativity. And, you

certainly don't know what an elitest is.

Carol

November 28, 2004

> And, you

> certainly don't know what an elitest is.

> Carol

>

Actually, I think that I do.

~~~Let's hear your definition, then.

Carol

November 28, 2004

>

> In a message dated 11/28/04 4:39:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> implode7@... writes:

>

>> And, of course, the point is that that decision isn't quite as obvious a

>> distinction the worse the job is, and the worse the person's circumstances

>> are. A slave could choose to quit, and suffer the consequences also. One

>> speaks of a person as 'not having a choice' meaning that the consequences of

>> the action make all choices unpleasant.

>

> ____

>

> ~~~~> The difference between a slave and a free man is one of legal status,

> not pleasantness, ease, or unease of life. A slave cannot legally choose to

> quit his job.

>

One can choose to violate the law. You originally categorized the difference

between the slave and the 'free' worker as one of choice. But now you are

shifting the ground. In our discussion as to whether one can speak of a

continuous gradation of choice between the two, it is obviously recognized

that the slave, in choosing to disobey, is violating the law.

> Functionally, the fact that employers must compete for workers because

> workers can go to different employers, and masters need not compete for

> slaves,

> because they have relatively effective and legal means of forcing them to stay

> on

> their property, means that voluntary workers have much better lives than

> slaves, in general.

>

The fact that workers, 'in general' have better lives than slaves, isn't the

point in examing the continuity between jobs and lives on the desperate end

of the spectrum and slavery.

You know what - you make no effort to understand the essence of an argument,

and shift your ground and argue based on whatever technicality you can evoke

so that you feel you're winning. I think I'll bail on this one now. Feels

too much like arguing like a punk college kid.

> But that isn't what differentiates the two. What differentiates them is the

> free man's legal right to work for whomever he pleases or for himself or for

> no one at all, and the slave's lack of that right.

>

> The fact that some workers have worse lives than some slaves, and some have

> similarly arduous and unpleasant lives, is a departure from the initial point

> of debate. Deanna facetiously suggested that we legalize slavery to allow

> businesses to save money on wage payments. The fact that she conceived of

> this

> as, implicitly, absurd, shows that, in the context in which she mentioned it,

> she conceives of slavery as fundamentally different than ordinary employment.

> No similarities between the pleasantness or unpleasantness of a life of a

> slave

> and a life of a worker support her position that slavery is positioned on a

> continuous spectrum of monetary salaries.

>

> Chris

November 28, 2004

>>It is your paragraph above, and similar sentiments, and your

feeling that you have achieved some additional wisdom that allows you to

look down on those more unfortunate in life, that I call elitism.<<

~~~I thought so! You haven't been reading what I've been writing. Who do you

think is more unfortunate in life than I am?! I don't know of a soul who I

could look down upon, if I ever had a tendency to do so, which I don't. I have

a smaller income than anyone I know, and I'm more ill than anyone I know. One

of the few things I have in life to hold onto, is my belief that it's possible

to be happy, no matter how bad things are. You can twist that around to be what

you want it to be, but you will still be wrong about me.

Carol

November 28, 2004

Gene,

I first would like to thank you for your thoughtful, considerate response.

But you claim that everyone can find meaningful work, regardless of their

> circumstances. So, I wonder how you regard those who do not seem to be able

> to do so, and regard themselves as unable to do so. Are they lazy? Can they

> just wake up some morning and find Jesus? Why do so many people suffer under

> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?

++++++++++++

I think that everyone has a calling, yes--a specialty, a gift to offer

the world--regardless of their material, physical, or other,

circumstances and that they will do better by themselves--and the rest

of us--by pursuing that unique ability/dream than by living their

lives according to the expectations of others.

How do I regard those who do not seem able to do so? I don't call

people names, declare what they " are " or classify non-specific groups

of people as " lazy " or anything else that implies judgement. An

analogy would be to liken this unfortunate group to the population

that eats and suffers the consequences of SAD, or the ill people

seeking medical care in all the wrong places. I see the number one

trouble in the world as ignorance--and the resultant suffering.

(Quickly, I'll add that I have my own ration of ignorance and pray

daily for its rapid destruction.)

Why do so many people suffer this malady? That is *the* mystery--how

can I answer this? What obstacles block a person from becoming their

true, highest self?

Why is suffering permitted on this earth? I don't know, Gene, but I

do my best to alleviate it

and I never meant to imply I thought it could be easily cured.

Our point of disagreement is not whether it is possible for a person to

> attain enlightenment, a narrow definition of which might be to find " their

> bliss " in the most horrible of circumstances. I think that you trivilialize

> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many are so

> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge about

> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of those in

> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their bliss.

>

++++++++++++++++++++++++

I never said " find " their bliss--I said " follow " their bliss, which

suggests a very different experience. And I was quoting J. .

Far from trivial, I think this is one of the most critical,

valient--and potentially dangerous, in some social circles--choices a

person can make.

As for having an elitist attitude, it would be elitist if I thought

certain groups of people or even individuals were *incapable* of

having a bliss and following it.

In fact, it is this very thing that I think bolsters one through those

dire circumstances, not being glib at all.

B.

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:33:48 -0800, Gene Schwartz <implode7@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > I think that if you believe that, for many, many poor or struggling people,

> >> that finding meaningful work that will pay the bills is possible to find,

> >> you are naïve. Are these people just lazy?

> >

> > Gene,

> > Whoever " these people " are you refer to, I don't think in such

> > judgemental terms re: their motives.

> > My stance is this:

> > Meaningful work is a factor in one's long-term health and happiness as

> > important as eating wholesome food.

> >

>

> But you claim that everyone can find meaningful work, regardless of their

> circumstances. So, I wonder how you regard those who do not seem to be able

> to do so, and regard themselves as unable to do so. Are they lazy? Can they

> just wake up some morning and find Jesus? Why do so many people suffer under

> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?

>

> > Implied is the possibility that people may find meaning and

> > satisfaction in " unpaid " work and use an otherwise unsavory " paid "

> > position to finance their true vocation, thus imbuing the " paid "

> > position with meaning--the same way people may cheerfully perform

> > various daily drudgeries and chores when they know there is a greater

> > purpose to it (such as soaking grains, making bone broths and taking

> > the effort to procure high-quality food [i realize there are far more

> > unpleasant chores but I saw an analogy.])

> >

> > Dr. Cowan phrases it much more eloquantly in his book:

> > " There is no greater joy in life than to have purpose, to know what

> > your life means. Some find this meaning through their families and

> > other relationships. Others meet their destiny through their work or

> > through activities like music and sports. Those who have discovered

> > the purpose of their lives...can expect to achieve vibrant health and

> > longevity... "

> >

> > I will go further to quote Joe 's advice to " follow your

> > bliss. " He said if you do, paths and doors will open to you along the

> > way. I have personally experienced this and believe it applies to

> > everyone, as he intended, including " these people " referenced above.

> >

> > While I am extremely flattered that I was able to provoke your

> > response, my observations of your postings in the past lead me to

> > believe that I haven't the stamina to maintain my stand with you, and

> > I worry that I won't feel satisfied with my attempts at compassionate

> > communication. I request that you realize I am very nervous over this

> > exchange.

> > B.

>

> Our point of disagreement is not whether it is possible for a person to

> attain enlightenment, a narrow definition of which might be to find " their

> bliss " in the most horrible of circumstances. I think that you trivilialize

> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many are so

> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge about

> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of those in

> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their bliss.

>

November 28, 2004

>

> Gene,

>

> I first would like to thank you for your thoughtful, considerate response.

>

> But you claim that everyone can find meaningful work, regardless of their

>> circumstances. So, I wonder how you regard those who do not seem to be able

>> to do so, and regard themselves as unable to do so. Are they lazy? Can they

>> just wake up some morning and find Jesus? Why do so many people suffer under

>> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?

> ++++++++++++

> I think that everyone has a calling, yes--a specialty, a gift to offer

> the world--regardless of their material, physical, or other,

> circumstances and that they will do better by themselves--and the rest

> of us--by pursuing that unique ability/dream than by living their

> lives according to the expectations of others.

>

I agree that every person has value. How exactly that can manifest itself

specifically is a difficult question. I don't believe in a personal God,

imbuing each person with this unique gift. So, depending on someone's

circumstances, which comprise everything about that person genetically,

environmentally, and experientially, that plays out in various ways. And

even if someone has this special gift, it does not mean that conditions are

right for them to find it. They might be just ready to find it, and then a

meteorite strikes them...(perhaps the meteorite is following ITS bliss)

> How do I regard those who do not seem able to do so? I don't call

> people names, declare what they " are " or classify non-specific groups

> of people as " lazy " or anything else that implies judgement.

What I object to is when those who are in circumstances that make it far

more difficult for them to manifest whatever gift they might possess, or

whatever meaning they might find in their circumstances, are demeaned by

others for not finding it. Another poster, in a context where we had been

talking about rights of laborers etc, referred to complaints that people

might make about their situation, as whining. I object to that, and view it

as negatively judgemental. I think I'm losing track of who said what, at

this point.

>An

> analogy would be to liken this unfortunate group to the population

> that eats and suffers the consequences of SAD, or the ill people

> seeking medical care in all the wrong places. I see the number one

> trouble in the world as ignorance--and the resultant suffering.

> (Quickly, I'll add that I have my own ration of ignorance and pray

> daily for its rapid destruction.)

> Why do so many people suffer this malady? That is *the* mystery--how

> can I answer this? What obstacles block a person from becoming their

> true, highest self?

> Why is suffering permitted on this earth? I don't know, Gene, but I

> do my best to alleviate it

> and I never meant to imply I thought it could be easily cured.

I don't think that it is a matter of permission, or some 'thing' that is

permitting it. It just IS.

>

> Our point of disagreement is not whether it is possible for a person to

>> attain enlightenment, a narrow definition of which might be to find " their

>> bliss " in the most horrible of circumstances. I think that you trivilialize

>> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many are so

>> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge about

>> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of those in

>> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their bliss.

>>

> ++++++++++++++++++++++++

> I never said " find " their bliss--I said " follow " their bliss, which

> suggests a very different experience. And I was quoting J. .

> Far from trivial, I think this is one of the most critical,

> valient--and potentially dangerous, in some social circles--choices a

> person can make.

> As for having an elitist attitude, it would be elitist if I thought

> certain groups of people or even individuals were *incapable* of

> having a bliss and following it.

>

That is true. But I believe that it can be very difficult (though obviously

not impossible) for someone to follow (one must find it in order to follow

it, I would think, but this is all metaphor anyway), if one's attention is

constantly forced elsewhere by one's circumstances. So, it may be only the

truly remarkable person who can accomplish this in the worst of

circumstances.

> In fact, it is this very thing that I think bolsters one through those

> dire circumstances, not being glib at all.

> B.

>

> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:33:48 -0800, Gene Schwartz <implode7@...>

> wrote:

>>

>>>

>>> I think that if you believe that, for many, many poor or struggling people,

>>>> that finding meaningful work that will pay the bills is possible to find,

>>>> you are naïve. Are these people just lazy?

>>>

>>> Gene,

>>> Whoever " these people " are you refer to, I don't think in such

>>> judgemental terms re: their motives.

>>> My stance is this:

>>> Meaningful work is a factor in one's long-term health and happiness as

>>> important as eating wholesome food.

>>>

>>

>> But you claim that everyone can find meaningful work, regardless of their

>> circumstances. So, I wonder how you regard those who do not seem to be able

>> to do so, and regard themselves as unable to do so. Are they lazy? Can they

>> just wake up some morning and find Jesus? Why do so many people suffer under

>> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?

>>

>>> Implied is the possibility that people may find meaning and

>>> satisfaction in " unpaid " work and use an otherwise unsavory " paid "

>>> position to finance their true vocation, thus imbuing the " paid "

>>> position with meaning--the same way people may cheerfully perform

>>> various daily drudgeries and chores when they know there is a greater

>>> purpose to it (such as soaking grains, making bone broths and taking

>>> the effort to procure high-quality food [i realize there are far more

>>> unpleasant chores but I saw an analogy.])

>>>

>>> Dr. Cowan phrases it much more eloquantly in his book:

>>> " There is no greater joy in life than to have purpose, to know what

>>> your life means. Some find this meaning through their families and

>>> other relationships. Others meet their destiny through their work or

>>> through activities like music and sports. Those who have discovered

>>> the purpose of their lives...can expect to achieve vibrant health and

>>> longevity... "

>>>

>>> I will go further to quote Joe 's advice to " follow your

>>> bliss. " He said if you do, paths and doors will open to you along the

>>> way. I have personally experienced this and believe it applies to

>>> everyone, as he intended, including " these people " referenced above.

>>>

>>> While I am extremely flattered that I was able to provoke your

>>> response, my observations of your postings in the past lead me to

>>> believe that I haven't the stamina to maintain my stand with you, and

>>> I worry that I won't feel satisfied with my attempts at compassionate

>>> communication. I request that you realize I am very nervous over this

>>> exchange.

>>> B.

>>

>> Our point of disagreement is not whether it is possible for a person to

>> attain enlightenment, a narrow definition of which might be to find " their

>> bliss " in the most horrible of circumstances. I think that you trivilialize

>> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many are so

>> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge about

>> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of those in

>> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their bliss.

>>

November 28, 2004

Okay, but Gene, you just described my situation (which I am beginning

to regret ever saying anything about because of all the friction

today)... and Carol has been very kind and supportive. She hasn't said

anything about whining, or looked down on me.

I do realize that you are talking generalities, but this is a real

example where she didn't. And so what you perceive she means when

debating it theoretically and what she practices in real life may be a

bit different.

I think it must be something in the air across the country...

everybody is just down right snippity today... I feel like treating a

bunch of the people on this list today like I do my boys... say you

are sorry and hug! LOL

Catz

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:08:16 -0800, Gene Schwartz <implode7@...> wrote:

>

> The fact that you can conceptualize your life in a way in which you are not

> a victim does not mean that in the normal use of the term, there ARE victims

> in life. It is your paragraph above, and similar sentiments, and your

> feeling that you have achieved some additional wisdom that allows you to

> look down on those more unfortunate in life, that I call elitism. The very

> notion that you would call it whining if a person complained about a life

> situation where they were struggling to support a family under very adverse

> circumstances, and imply (pretty much say directly) that we should get past

> thinking about such lowly matters as labor injustices, is the very attitude

> that validates such injustices.

>

November 28, 2004

Thank you Chris.

I'll take that as a truce?

Catz

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:33:37 EST, chrismasterjohn@...

<chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> In a message dated 11/28/04 4:46:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> catzandturtles@... writes:

>

> > We take meals

> > to families when mom is sick, we talk walks and collect rocks to take

> > home. We chase butterflies, and watch birds, and follow insects. It is

> > a good life overall. It just would be nicer to have a broader range of

> > choices.

> > ______

>

> ~~~~> I'll take your word for it that you've investigated your choices

> thoroughly, although it's relatively easy in my area to find a job making

> $20K/yr or

> more entry level, if one is willing to work overtime.

>

> In any case, I'm glad you've managed to make a good life for yourself and

> your family with your limited resources. Nature offers a lot.

>

> Chris

>

November 29, 2004

and All,

I DID use the word 'whine', but it was in reference to people who would rather

play victim and whine about their 'plight' instead of trying to do

something/anything to change it.

You certainly don't fit into that category, or you would not be moving to better

your situation, and that's why I didn't use that word in reference to

you.......not to mention all the other things you've figured out for your family

to both keep them well-fed, by not scrimping on good food, and clothed by

shopping in thrift stores. I know how it feels to be in that situation,

because I'm doing the same things, and people taking such actions are not what I

consider whiners.

These are the kinds of 'subtleties' that he seems unable to see in the things I

have said. He was posting in reference to people doing jobs they didn't feel

fulfilled in doing, referring to them as people in certain " horrible

circumstances " , doing " degrading " work and in " dire circumstances " . I find it

difficult to consider someone working at a job they don't enjoy, as being in a

" dire circumstance " .

I have a niece who has been so crippled with Rheumatoid Arthritis, since the age

of 17, that she never had the chance to work at any job, nor a chance at any

kind of life at all. She can't even feed herself. THAT is a dire circumstance!

And, I myself have MS and had to quit working just a few years before

retirement, so no retirement benefits. And yet, he expects me to be ashamed of

the fact that I've overcome my disability enough to be happy regardless of my

plight. AND, he expects me to feel sorry for someone simply because they don't

have a 'fulfilling job?! It makes me sick to tell you the truth, and yet he

calls MY attitude disgusting! I firmly believe that any able bodied person, has

no room to complain that they have to go to a job that isn't just exactly the

kind of fulfilling experience they think they deserve! I spent 35 years at

jobs that weren't fulfilling - so what?! And, then for him to condemn me with a

label such as " elitist " only adds insult to injury. He just has no idea what

dire circumstances are. There are many people in this world who truly ARE in

dire and horrible circumstances, (way to varied to list here), and are being

degraded, but it has nothing to do with their jobs!

Carol

Okay, but Gene, you just described my situation (which I am beginning

to regret ever saying anything about because of all the friction

today)... and Carol has been very kind and supportive. She hasn't said

anything about whining, or looked down on me.

I do realize that you are talking generalities, but this is a real

example where she didn't. And so what you perceive she means when

debating it theoretically and what she practices in real life may be a

bit different.

I think it must be something in the air across the country...

everybody is just down right snippity today... I feel like treating a

bunch of the people on this list today like I do my boys... say you

are sorry and hug! LOL

Catz

November 29, 2004

I see the number one trouble in the world as ignorance--and the

resultant suffering. (Quickly, I'll add that I have my own ration of

ignorance and pray daily for its rapid destruction.) -

I see ignorance as only one of the afflictions plaguing us. - Deanna

II.3 avidya asmita raga dvesa abhinivesah klesa

The five afflictions which disturb the equilibrium of consciousness are:

ignorance or lack of wisdom, ego, pride of the ego or the sense of 'I',

attachment to pleasure, aversion to pain, fear of death and clinging to

life.

- Light on the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, by BKS Iyengar

November 29, 2004

>

> Okay, but Gene, you just described my situation (which I am beginning

> to regret ever saying anything about because of all the friction

> today)... and Carol has been very kind and supportive. She hasn't said

> anything about whining, or looked down on me.

I appreciate this, but if you are debating something theoretically, and

someone says something that you don't like, then that is what you address, I

think. There are many people who are nice people 'in person', but who have

viewpoints that I find abhorrent. If I am debating with them, then I address

those issues, not the fact that they are nice.

> I do realize that you are talking generalities, but this is a real

> example where she didn't. And so what you perceive she means when

> debating it theoretically and what she practices in real life may be a

> bit different.

>

> I think it must be something in the air across the country...

> everybody is just down right snippity today... I feel like treating a

> bunch of the people on this list today like I do my boys... say you

> are sorry and hug! LOL

> Catz

>

> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:08:16 -0800, Gene Schwartz <implode7@...>

> wrote:

>>

>> The fact that you can conceptualize your life in a way in which you are not

>> a victim does not mean that in the normal use of the term, there ARE victims

>> in life. It is your paragraph above, and similar sentiments, and your

>> feeling that you have achieved some additional wisdom that allows you to

>> look down on those more unfortunate in life, that I call elitism. The very

>> notion that you would call it whining if a person complained about a life

>> situation where they were struggling to support a family under very adverse

>> circumstances, and imply (pretty much say directly) that we should get past

>> thinking about such lowly matters as labor injustices, is the very attitude

>> that validates such injustices.

>>

November 29, 2004

Gene,

I agree that every person has value. How exactly that can manifest itself

> specifically is a difficult question. I don't believe in a personal God,

> imbuing each person with this unique gift. So, depending on someone's

> circumstances, which comprise everything about that person genetically,

> environmentally, and experientially, that plays out in various ways. And

> even if someone has this special gift, it does not mean that conditions are

> right for them to find it. They might be just ready to find it, and then a

> meteorite strikes them...(perhaps the meteorite is following ITS bliss)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I never said a person's individual traits were imbued by a personal

God. You may assume-- for this discussion--they are a " given " , like

their circumstances. But I hear you going back to this point again

and again: circumstances, and I hear your frustration that some

people's circumstances are " worse " than others and prevent them from

achieving their goals--whatever those may be. People are oppressed by

circumstances and this upsets you because your need for harmony and

order in the world is not being met. It particularly annoys you when

such unfortunate people are judged as " lazy " or " whining " by people

unable to comprehend the due force of these circumstances as then your

needs for fairness and balance is also unmet. Am I correct in what

I'm hearing--please let me know.

Then I hear a still deeper frustration that there is no " one " to blame

these arbitrary circumstances on, and wow, then I'm even depressed,

now. Will you please clarify for me your ideas on the distribution of

circumstances in this world?

I don't think that it is a matter of permission, or some 'thing' that is

> permitting it. It just IS.

++++++++++++++++++++++=

Yes, a poor choice of words by me and I stand corrected. Thank you.

Thank you,

B.

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:47:16 -0800, Gene Schwartz <implode7@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Gene,

> >

> > I first would like to thank you for your thoughtful, considerate response.

> >

> > But you claim that everyone can find meaningful work, regardless of their

> >> circumstances. So, I wonder how you regard those who do not seem to be able

> >> to do so, and regard themselves as unable to do so. Are they lazy? Can they

> >> just wake up some morning and find Jesus? Why do so many people suffer

under

> >> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?

> > ++++++++++++

> > I think that everyone has a calling, yes--a specialty, a gift to offer

> > the world--regardless of their material, physical, or other,

> > circumstances and that they will do better by themselves--and the rest

> > of us--by pursuing that unique ability/dream than by living their

> > lives according to the expectations of others.

> >

>

> I agree that every person has value. How exactly that can manifest itself

> specifically is a difficult question. I don't believe in a personal God,

> imbuing each person with this unique gift. So, depending on someone's

> circumstances, which comprise everything about that person genetically,

> environmentally, and experientially, that plays out in various ways. And

> even if someone has this special gift, it does not mean that conditions are

> right for them to find it. They might be just ready to find it, and then a

> meteorite strikes them...(perhaps the meteorite is following ITS bliss)

>

> > How do I regard those who do not seem able to do so? I don't call

> > people names, declare what they " are " or classify non-specific groups

> > of people as " lazy " or anything else that implies judgement.

>

> What I object to is when those who are in circumstances that make it far

> more difficult for them to manifest whatever gift they might possess, or

> whatever meaning they might find in their circumstances, are demeaned by

> others for not finding it. Another poster, in a context where we had been

> talking about rights of laborers etc, referred to complaints that people

> might make about their situation, as whining. I object to that, and view it

> as negatively judgemental. I think I'm losing track of who said what, at

> this point.

>

> >An

> > analogy would be to liken this unfortunate group to the population

> > that eats and suffers the consequences of SAD, or the ill people

> > seeking medical care in all the wrong places. I see the number one

> > trouble in the world as ignorance--and the resultant suffering.

> > (Quickly, I'll add that I have my own ration of ignorance and pray

> > daily for its rapid destruction.)

> > Why do so many people suffer this malady? That is *the* mystery--how

> > can I answer this? What obstacles block a person from becoming their

> > true, highest self?

> > Why is suffering permitted on this earth? I don't know, Gene, but I

> > do my best to alleviate it

> > and I never meant to imply I thought it could be easily cured.

>

> I don't think that it is a matter of permission, or some 'thing' that is

> permitting it. It just IS.

>

> >

> > Our point of disagreement is not whether it is possible for a person to

> >> attain enlightenment, a narrow definition of which might be to find " their

> >> bliss " in the most horrible of circumstances. I think that you trivilialize

> >> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many are

so

> >> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge about

> >> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of those

in

> >> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their bliss.

> >>

> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++

> > I never said " find " their bliss--I said " follow " their bliss, which

> > suggests a very different experience. And I was quoting J. .

> > Far from trivial, I think this is one of the most critical,

> > valient--and potentially dangerous, in some social circles--choices a

> > person can make.

> > As for having an elitist attitude, it would be elitist if I thought

> > certain groups of people or even individuals were *incapable* of

> > having a bliss and following it.

> >

>

> That is true. But I believe that it can be very difficult (though obviously

> not impossible) for someone to follow (one must find it in order to follow

> it, I would think, but this is all metaphor anyway), if one's attention is

> constantly forced elsewhere by one's circumstances. So, it may be only the

> truly remarkable person who can accomplish this in the worst of

> circumstances.

>

> > In fact, it is this very thing that I think bolsters one through those

> > dire circumstances, not being glib at all.

> > B.

> >

> > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:33:48 -0800, Gene Schwartz <implode7@...>

> > wrote:

> >>

> >>>

> >>> I think that if you believe that, for many, many poor or struggling

people,

> >>>> that finding meaningful work that will pay the bills is possible to find,

> >>>> you are naïve. Are these people just lazy?

> >>>

> >>> Gene,

> >>> Whoever " these people " are you refer to, I don't think in such

> >>> judgemental terms re: their motives.

> >>> My stance is this:

> >>> Meaningful work is a factor in one's long-term health and happiness as

> >>> important as eating wholesome food.

> >>>

> >>

> >> But you claim that everyone can find meaningful work, regardless of their

> >> circumstances. So, I wonder how you regard those who do not seem to be able

> >> to do so, and regard themselves as unable to do so. Are they lazy? Can they

> >> just wake up some morning and find Jesus? Why do so many people suffer

under

> >> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?

> >>

> >>> Implied is the possibility that people may find meaning and

> >>> satisfaction in " unpaid " work and use an otherwise unsavory " paid "

> >>> position to finance their true vocation, thus imbuing the " paid "

> >>> position with meaning--the same way people may cheerfully perform

> >>> various daily drudgeries and chores when they know there is a greater

> >>> purpose to it (such as soaking grains, making bone broths and taking

> >>> the effort to procure high-quality food [i realize there are far more

> >>> unpleasant chores but I saw an analogy.])

> >>>

> >>> Dr. Cowan phrases it much more eloquantly in his book:

> >>> " There is no greater joy in life than to have purpose, to know what

> >>> your life means. Some find this meaning through their families and

> >>> other relationships. Others meet their destiny through their work or

> >>> through activities like music and sports. Those who have discovered

> >>> the purpose of their lives...can expect to achieve vibrant health and

> >>> longevity... "

> >>>

> >>> I will go further to quote Joe 's advice to " follow your

> >>> bliss. " He said if you do, paths and doors will open to you along the

> >>> way. I have personally experienced this and believe it applies to

> >>> everyone, as he intended, including " these people " referenced above.

> >>>

> >>> While I am extremely flattered that I was able to provoke your

> >>> response, my observations of your postings in the past lead me to

> >>> believe that I haven't the stamina to maintain my stand with you, and

> >>> I worry that I won't feel satisfied with my attempts at compassionate

> >>> communication. I request that you realize I am very nervous over this

> >>> exchange.

> >>> B.

> >>

> >> Our point of disagreement is not whether it is possible for a person to

> >> attain enlightenment, a narrow definition of which might be to find " their

> >> bliss " in the most horrible of circumstances. I think that you trivilialize

> >> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many are

so

> >> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge about

> >> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of those

in

> >> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their bliss.

> >>

November 29, 2004

~~~~> The difference between a slave and a free man is one of legal status,

not pleasantness, ease, or unease of life. A slave cannot legally

choose to

quit his job. - Chris

A person held in servitude by another may or may not be held as such

legally. It may be illegal, yet a reality all the same. Are you

equating slavery with employment in your second sentence? Usually we

speak in terms of freeing slaves, not slaves choosing to quit jobs.

Thus, force may be the overriding consideration, not legality.

Deanna

>

November 29, 2004

-------------- Original message --------------

>

> Gene,

>

> I agree that every person has value. How exactly that can manifest itself

> > specifically is a difficult question. I don't believe in a personal God,

> > imbuing each person with this unique gift. So, depending on someone's

> > circumstances, which comprise everything about that person genetically,

> > environmentally, and experientially, that plays out in various ways. And

> > even if someone has this special gift, it does not mean that conditions are

> > right for them to find it. They might be just ready to find it, and then a

> > meteorite strikes them...(perhaps the meteorite is following ITS bliss)

> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>

> I never said a person's individual traits were imbued by a personal

> God.

I didn't mean to imply that you said it. If one assumes that everyone has a

unique gift, then, I don't see any other explanation for it. So I was starting

out with the fact that I didn't believe in a personal God.

>You may assume-- for this discussion--they are a " given " , like

> their circumstances. But I hear you going back to this point again

> and again: circumstances, and I hear your frustration that some

> people's circumstances are " worse " than others and prevent them from

> achieving their goals--whatever those may be.

How can you deny that circumstances can prevent some people from achieving their

goals? That would seem to be so obvious.

>People are oppressed by

> circumstances and this upsets you because your need for harmony and

> order in the world is not being met.

? I don't see that you have pointed out a flaw in my argument, but you are now

psychoanalyzing my reason for making it?

>It particularly annoys you when

> such unfortunate people are judged as " lazy " or " whining " by people

> unable to comprehend the due force of these circumstances as then your

> needs for fairness and balance is also unmet.

I guess that, to some degree, is what having progressive politics is - having

compassion for people who somehow haven't been able to harness their unique

'gift' in order to achieve their goals, because of circumstances imposed upon

them.

>Am I correct in what

> I'm hearing--please let me know.

Well, you seem to be hearing, but no listening.

> Then I hear a still deeper frustration that there is no " one " to blame

> these arbitrary circumstances on, and wow, then I'm even depressed,

> now.

You've lost me here.

> Will you please clarify for me your ideas on the distribution of

> circumstances in this world?

Sorry - I don't have time for an essay. Isn't that a rather big topic? Ah - I

get it - you're being sarcastic.

>

> I don't think that it is a matter of permission, or some 'thing' that is

> > permitting it. It just IS.

> ++++++++++++++++++++++=

> Yes, a poor choice of words by me and I stand corrected. Thank you.

>

> Thank you,

> B.

ok

>

> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:47:16 -0800, Gene Schwartz wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Gene,

> > >

> > > I first would like to thank you for your thoughtful, considerate response.

> > >

> > > But you claim that everyone can find meaningful work, regardless of their

> > >> circumstances. So, I wonder how you regard those who do not seem to be

able

> > >> to do so, and regard themselves as unable to do so. Are they lazy? Can

they

> > >> just wake up some morning and find Jesus? Why do so many people suffer

> under

> > >> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?

> > > ++++++++++++

> > > I think that everyone has a calling, yes--a specialty, a gift to offer

> > > the world--regardless of their material, physical, or other,

> > > circumstances and that they will do better by themselves--and the rest

> > > of us--by pursuing that unique ability/dream than by living their

> > > lives according to the expectations of others.

> > >

> >

> > I agree that every person has value. How exactly that can manifest itself

> > specifically is a difficult question. I don't believe in a personal God,

> > imbuing each person with this unique gift. So, depending on someone's

> > circumstances, which comprise everything about that person genetically,

> > environmentally, and experientially, that plays out in various ways. And

> > even if someone has this special gift, it does not mean that conditions are

> > right for them to find it. They might be just ready to find it, and then a

> > meteorite strikes them...(perhaps the meteorite is following ITS bliss)

> >

> > > How do I regard those who do not seem able to do so? I don't call

> > > people names, declare what they " are " or classify non-specific groups

> > > of people as " lazy " or anything else that implies judgement.

> >

> > What I object to is when those who are in circumstances that make it far

> > more difficult for them to manifest whatever gift they might possess, or

> > whatever meaning they might find in their circumstances, are demeaned by

> > others for not finding it. Another poster, in a context where we had been

> > talking about rights of laborers etc, referred to complaints that people

> > might make about their situation, as whining. I object to that, and view it

> > as negatively judgemental. I think I'm losing track of who said what, at

> > this point.

> >

> > >An

> > > analogy would be to liken this unfortunate group to the population

> > > that eats and suffers the consequences of SAD, or the ill people

> > > seeking medical care in all the wrong places. I see the number one

> > > trouble in the world as ignorance--and the resultant suffering.

> > > (Quickly, I'll add that I have my own ration of ignorance and pray

> > > daily for its rapid destruction.)

> > > Why do so many people suffer this malady? That is *the* mystery--how

> > > can I answer this? What obstacles block a person from becoming their

> > > true, highest self?

> > > Why is suffering permitted on this earth? I don't know, Gene, but I

> > > do my best to alleviate it

> > > and I never meant to imply I thought it could be easily cured.

> >

> > I don't think that it is a matter of permission, or some 'thing' that is

> > permitting it. It just IS.

> >

> > >

> > > Our point of disagreement is not whether it is possible for a person to

> > >> attain enlightenment, a narrow definition of which might be to find

" their

> > >> bliss " in the most horrible of circumstances. I think that you

trivilialize

> > >> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many are

> so

> > >> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge

about

> > >> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of those

> in

> > >> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their bliss.

> > >>

> > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++

> > > I never said " find " their bliss--I said " follow " their bliss, which

> > > suggests a very different experience. And I was quoting J. .

> > > Far from trivial, I think this is one of the most critical,

> > > valient--and potentially dangerous, in some social circles--choices a

> > > person can make.

> > > As for having an elitist attitude, it would be elitist if I thought

> > > certain groups of people or even individuals were *incapable* of

> > > having a bliss and following it.

> > >

> >

> > That is true. But I believe that it can be very difficult (though obviously

> > not impossible) for someone to follow (one must find it in order to follow

> > it, I would think, but this is all metaphor anyway), if one's attention is

> > constantly forced elsewhere by one's circumstances. So, it may be only the

> > truly remarkable person who can accomplish this in the worst of

> > circumstances.

> >

> > > In fact, it is this very thing that I think bolsters one through those

> > > dire circumstances, not being glib at all.

> > > B.

> > >

> > > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:33:48 -0800, Gene Schwartz

> > > wrote:

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>> I think that if you believe that, for many, many poor or struggling

> people,

> > >>>> that finding meaningful work that will pay the bills is possible to

find,

> > >>>> you are naïve. Are these people just lazy?

> > >>>

> > >>> Gene,

> > >>> Whoever " these people " are you refer to, I don't think in such

> > >>> judgemental terms re: their motives.

> > >>> My stance is this:

> > >>> Meaningful work is a factor in one's long-term health and happiness as

> > >>> important as eating wholesome food.

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >> But you claim that everyone can find meaningful work, regardless of their

> > >> circumstances. So, I wonder how you regard those who do not seem to be

able

> > >> to do so, and regard themselves as unable to do so. Are they lazy? Can

they

> > >> just wake up some morning and find Jesus? Why do so many people suffer

> under

> > >> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?

> > >>

> > >>> Implied is the possibility that people may find meaning and

> > >>> satisfaction in " unpaid " work and use an otherwise unsavory " paid "

> > >>> position to finance their true vocation, thus imbuing the " paid "

> > >>> position with meaning--the same way people may cheerfully perform

> > >>> various daily drudgeries and chores when they know there is a greater

> > >>> purpose to it (such as soaking grains, making bone broths and taking

> > >>> the effort to procure high-quality food [i realize there are far more

> > >>> unpleasant chores but I saw an analogy.])

> > >>>

> > >>> Dr. Cowan phrases it much more eloquantly in his book:

> > >>> " There is no greater joy in life than to have purpose, to know what

> > >>> your life means. Some find this meaning through their families and

> > >>> other relationships. Others meet their destiny through their work or

> > >>> through activities like music and sports. Those who have discovered

> > >>> the purpose of their lives...can expect to achieve vibrant health and

> > >>> longevity... "

> > >>>

> > >>> I will go further to quote Joe 's advice to " follow your

> > >>> bliss. " He said if you do, paths and doors will open to you along the

> > >>> way. I have personally experienced this and believe it applies to

> > >>> everyone, as he intended, including " these people " referenced above.

> > >>>

> > >>> While I am extremely flattered that I was able to provoke your

> > >>> response, my observations of your postings in the past lead me to

> > >>> believe that I haven't the stamina to maintain my stand with you, and

> > >>> I worry that I won't feel satisfied with my attempts at compassionate

> > >>> communication. I request that you realize I am very nervous over this

> > >>> exchange.

> > >>> B.

> > >>

> > >> Our point of disagreement is not whether it is possible for a person to

> > >> attain enlightenment, a narrow definition of which might be to find

" their

> > >> bliss " in the most horrible of circumstances. I think that you

trivilialize

> > >> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many are

> so

> > >> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge

about

> > >> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of those

> in

> > >> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their bliss.

> > >>

November 29, 2004

Gene-

>I'd say it's that 'voluntary' and 'involuntary' are really judgements that

>we make about decisions, not some 'thing' that infuses the action. Unless

>believes that by definition all of one's actions are determined, or by

>definition that they are all free, we form judgements about the freedom of

>our actions based on a number of variables. I may be free to make a decision

>between working for the slave owner and being whipped given one way of

>looking at things, and not free under another. I was making the point that

>for a person whose only realistic choices are to work for low pay, for many

>hours, under degrading conditions, or quit, that decision is constrained

>with the same degree of difficulty that a slave's decision about whether to

>continue to obey, though obviously the consequences are different.'

Well said.

-

November 29, 2004

In a message dated 11/28/04 10:04:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,

implode7@... writes:

> One can choose to violate the law. You originally categorized the

> difference

> between the slave and the 'free' worker as one of choice. But now you are

> shifting the ground. In our discussion as to whether one can speak of a

> continuous gradation of choice between the two, it is obviously recognized

> that the slave, in choosing to disobey, is violating the law.

_____

~~~~> I believe the choice I was referring to was the choice of employment

status. I have a legal, contractual arrangement with my employer that

stipulates that either of us can terminate the arrangement at any time, and I

also

signed on to the arrangement out of free choice. The slave is legally bound to

work for her or his master, did not choose to enter such an agreement, and is

not allowed to terminate it.

The fact that the slave can choose whether or not to obey the law is indeed

an example of voluntary, free choice. What is not voluntary for the slave is

her or his legal status, and the practical implications of this circumstance,

such as the high liklihood of physical punishment for disobedience, since the

slave has no legal recourse against it, or the high liklihood of capture if the

slave escapes, due to the legal status of the slave and the resultant

concerted effort of law enforcement and vigilantes and the resultant lack of

legal

recourse against what would ordinarily be considered kidnapping for a free

person.

_______

>

> >Functionally, the fact that employers must compete for workers because

> >workers can go to different employers, and masters need not compete for

> >slaves,

> >because they have relatively effective and legal means of forcing them to

> stay

> >on

> >their property, means that voluntary workers have much better lives than

> >slaves, in general.

> >

>

> The fact that workers, 'in general' have better lives than slaves, isn't the

> point in examing the continuity between jobs and lives on the desperate end

> of the spectrum and slavery.

______

~~~~> I understand that and agree. I was simply making an additional note,

and probably should have avoided doing so in order to simplify the debate. You

have also noted similarities between the arduousness and unpleasantness of

work/life between those with constricted choices and slaves, even though this as

well has nothing to do with the supposed continuity or lack thereof between

the jobs and lives of those in desparate circumstances and slavery, because

slavery is not defined by unpleasantness or arduousness of work. It is defined

by the absence of a slave's legal right to terminate her or his employment to

her or his master.

Chris

November 29, 2004

In a message dated 11/28/04 5:54:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,

implode7@... writes:

> I'd say it's that 'voluntary' and 'involuntary' are really judgements that

> we make about decisions, not some 'thing' that infuses the action.

____

~~~> I disagree. The very word " decision " necessarily implies that one has

decided, and therefore deliberated, and therefore voluntarily chosen. What I

am referring to as voluntary is NOT the circumstances that factor as inputs to

consider in a decision, which are NOT voluntary, but the simple act of

deciding and acting based on that decision itself.

I realize that this definition is very broad. It is also objective, whereas

making a retrospective judgment about how compelling a given factor in a given

decision was is entirely subjective. I am not suggesting that voluntary

choices make one politically free, or make one happy, etc. All humans make

voluntary choices and it is part of what it means to be free. A slave, a

worker,

one self-employed, and a desert ascetic all make voluntary choices despite some

of them having very restrictive circumstances and some lacking political

freedom.

When the phrase " voluntary worker " (or " employment, " or however it was used)

was first used it was to distinguish it from slavery. The point in using it

was to differentiate the fact that a slave's employment is not a choice,

whereas a free worker's employment is a choice. Either can choose to violate

the

contracts they are bound to by law, but the slave cannot alter, terminate, or

refrain from entering, his contract, unlike the free worker. Both engage in

many voluntary choices, but for the slave, the contractual employment he is part

of is not a choice, whereas it is for a free worker.

______

> So, then, by your definition, the slave's decision to work was voluntary.

____

~~~~> Yes, but the fact that the slave can be violently whipped as punishment

with no legal recourse against the perpetrator is not a voluntary choice, nor

is the fact that the authorities can return the slave if escaped, or that the

slave has no recourse against his kidnappers if private individuals return

him.

_______

> It's true that the choice of a slave to work or not work and get beaten is

> indeed voluntary. What is not voluntary, that separates slavery from

> voluntary

> work, is that the voluntary worker chooses her employer, while the slave

does

> not.

_______

> So, then, you would consider a system of slavery which differed from the

> one

> in the U.S. In one way - the slave could choose his/her own owner - would

> therefore should not be considered slavery?

______

~~~~> You'll have to forgive me, but I must modify what I said above. Please

recognize that I am not changing my position, but merely mis-stated it above,

as I have repeatedly formulated it in the following way throughout this

thread: the free worker cannot only choose her employer, but can also choose to

terminate the employment once it has begun, can choose to not enter into

employment at all, or can employ herself. If slavery was modified to allow all

of

these things I think it would cease to be slavery.

_______

And suppose then today, in some

> area of the world, there was only one employer, whose working conditions

> were deplorable, but did pay a minimum wage. This would be slavery according

> to you?

_____

~~~~~> It would only be slavery if the workers were forced to work rather

than having the politically free choice to not be employed by the employer.

Chris

November 29, 2004

In a message dated 11/29/04 1:12:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,

catzandturtles@... writes:

> Thank you Chris.

> I'll take that as a truce?

____

~~~~> Sure. I didn't know we were fighting.

Chris

November 29, 2004

Gene,

FWIW neither do I believe in a personal God althought I did have to

look it up to make sure b/c I have no religious education. This is

what I found from Albert Einstein and I liked it:

" I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the

actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures

of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that

mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt

by modern science. My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of

the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that

we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of

reality. Morality is of the highest importance-but for us, not for

God. "

Nor have I been sarcastic at any point and I don't want to come off like that.

Since the word " circumstances " keeps coming up and seems to be a point

of conflict, I am trying to understand as clearly as possible where do

you think a set of circumstances comes from. I think you're saying

that " they just are " and I don't disagree, much less deny that

circumstances play a role. What I'm asking you is this: how does one

rise above a set of undesirable circumstances? How would you counsel

someone? That is the part I'm not hearing.

When I think of people stuck in arbitrary misfortune and unable to see

past it while others call them lazy or whining, I feel frustrated and

hopeless and my need is to know a solution, or a hope of a solution.

I'm not trying to psychoanalyze but to understand your POV for my own

enrichment--I have a lot to learn.

Thank you,

B.

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:32:17 +0000, implode7@...

<implode7@...> wrote:

>

> -------------- Original message --------------

>

> >

> > Gene,

> >

> > I agree that every person has value. How exactly that can manifest itself

> > > specifically is a difficult question. I don't believe in a personal God,

> > > imbuing each person with this unique gift. So, depending on someone's

> > > circumstances, which comprise everything about that person genetically,

> > > environmentally, and experientially, that plays out in various ways. And

> > > even if someone has this special gift, it does not mean that conditions

are

> > > right for them to find it. They might be just ready to find it, and then a

> > > meteorite strikes them...(perhaps the meteorite is following ITS bliss)

> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

> >

> > I never said a person's individual traits were imbued by a personal

> > God.

> I didn't mean to imply that you said it. If one assumes that everyone has a

unique gift, then, I don't see any other explanation for it. So I was starting

out with the fact that I didn't believe in a personal God.

> >You may assume-- for this discussion--they are a " given " , like

> > their circumstances. But I hear you going back to this point again

> > and again: circumstances, and I hear your frustration that some

> > people's circumstances are " worse " than others and prevent them from

> > achieving their goals--whatever those may be.

> How can you deny that circumstances can prevent some people from achieving

their goals? That would seem to be so obvious.

> >People are oppressed by

> > circumstances and this upsets you because your need for harmony and

> > order in the world is not being met.

> ? I don't see that you have pointed out a flaw in my argument, but you are now

psychoanalyzing my reason for making it?

> >It particularly annoys you when

> > such unfortunate people are judged as " lazy " or " whining " by people

> > unable to comprehend the due force of these circumstances as then your

> > needs for fairness and balance is also unmet.

> I guess that, to some degree, is what having progressive politics is - having

compassion for people who somehow haven't been able to harness their unique

'gift' in order to achieve their goals, because of circumstances imposed upon

them.

> >Am I correct in what

> > I'm hearing--please let me know.

> Well, you seem to be hearing, but no listening.

>

> > Then I hear a still deeper frustration that there is no " one " to blame

> > these arbitrary circumstances on, and wow, then I'm even depressed,

> > now.

> You've lost me here.

> > Will you please clarify for me your ideas on the distribution of

> > circumstances in this world?

> Sorry - I don't have time for an essay. Isn't that a rather big topic? Ah - I

get it - you're being sarcastic.

>

> >

> > I don't think that it is a matter of permission, or some 'thing' that is

> > > permitting it. It just IS.

> > ++++++++++++++++++++++=

> > Yes, a poor choice of words by me and I stand corrected. Thank you.

> >

> > Thank you,

> > B.

>

> ok

> >

> > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:47:16 -0800, Gene Schwartz wrote:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Gene,

> > > >

> > > > I first would like to thank you for your thoughtful, considerate

response.

> > > >

> > > > But you claim that everyone can find meaningful work, regardless of

their

> > > >> circumstances. So, I wonder how you regard those who do not seem to be

able

> > > >> to do so, and regard themselves as unable to do so. Are they lazy? Can

they

> > > >> just wake up some morning and find Jesus? Why do so many people suffer

> > under

> > > >> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?

> > > > ++++++++++++

> > > > I think that everyone has a calling, yes--a specialty, a gift to offer

> > > > the world--regardless of their material, physical, or other,

> > > > circumstances and that they will do better by themselves--and the rest

> > > > of us--by pursuing that unique ability/dream than by living their

> > > > lives according to the expectations of others.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I agree that every person has value. How exactly that can manifest itself

> > > specifically is a difficult question. I don't believe in a personal God,

> > > imbuing each person with this unique gift. So, depending on someone's

> > > circumstances, which comprise everything about that person genetically,

> > > environmentally, and experientially, that plays out in various ways. And

> > > even if someone has this special gift, it does not mean that conditions

are

> > > right for them to find it. They might be just ready to find it, and then a

> > > meteorite strikes them...(perhaps the meteorite is following ITS bliss)

> > >

> > > > How do I regard those who do not seem able to do so? I don't call

> > > > people names, declare what they " are " or classify non-specific groups

> > > > of people as " lazy " or anything else that implies judgement.

> > >

> > > What I object to is when those who are in circumstances that make it far

> > > more difficult for them to manifest whatever gift they might possess, or

> > > whatever meaning they might find in their circumstances, are demeaned by

> > > others for not finding it. Another poster, in a context where we had been

> > > talking about rights of laborers etc, referred to complaints that people

> > > might make about their situation, as whining. I object to that, and view

it

> > > as negatively judgemental. I think I'm losing track of who said what, at

> > > this point.

> > >

> > > >An

> > > > analogy would be to liken this unfortunate group to the population

> > > > that eats and suffers the consequences of SAD, or the ill people

> > > > seeking medical care in all the wrong places. I see the number one

> > > > trouble in the world as ignorance--and the resultant suffering.

> > > > (Quickly, I'll add that I have my own ration of ignorance and pray

> > > > daily for its rapid destruction.)

> > > > Why do so many people suffer this malady? That is *the* mystery--how

> > > > can I answer this? What obstacles block a person from becoming their

> > > > true, highest self?

> > > > Why is suffering permitted on this earth? I don't know, Gene, but I

> > > > do my best to alleviate it

> > > > and I never meant to imply I thought it could be easily cured.

> > >

> > > I don't think that it is a matter of permission, or some 'thing' that is

> > > permitting it. It just IS.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Our point of disagreement is not whether it is possible for a person to

> > > >> attain enlightenment, a narrow definition of which might be to find

" their

> > > >> bliss " in the most horrible of circumstances. I think that you

trivilialize

> > > >> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many

are

> > so

> > > >> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge

about

> > > >> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of

those

> > in

> > > >> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their bliss.

> > > >>

> > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++

> > > > I never said " find " their bliss--I said " follow " their bliss, which

> > > > suggests a very different experience. And I was quoting J. .

> > > > Far from trivial, I think this is one of the most critical,

> > > > valient--and potentially dangerous, in some social circles--choices a

> > > > person can make.

> > > > As for having an elitist attitude, it would be elitist if I thought

> > > > certain groups of people or even individuals were *incapable* of

> > > > having a bliss and following it.

> > > >

> > >

> > > That is true. But I believe that it can be very difficult (though

obviously

> > > not impossible) for someone to follow (one must find it in order to follow

> > > it, I would think, but this is all metaphor anyway), if one's attention is

> > > constantly forced elsewhere by one's circumstances. So, it may be only the

> > > truly remarkable person who can accomplish this in the worst of

> > > circumstances.

> > >

> > > > In fact, it is this very thing that I think bolsters one through those

> > > > dire circumstances, not being glib at all.

> > > > B.

> > > >

> > > > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:33:48 -0800, Gene Schwartz

> > > > wrote:

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>> I think that if you believe that, for many, many poor or struggling

> > people,

> > > >>>> that finding meaningful work that will pay the bills is possible to

find,

> > > >>>> you are naïve. Are these people just lazy?

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Gene,

> > > >>> Whoever " these people " are you refer to, I don't think in such

> > > >>> judgemental terms re: their motives.

> > > >>> My stance is this:

> > > >>> Meaningful work is a factor in one's long-term health and happiness as

> > > >>> important as eating wholesome food.

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >> But you claim that everyone can find meaningful work, regardless of

their

> > > >> circumstances. So, I wonder how you regard those who do not seem to be

able

> > > >> to do so, and regard themselves as unable to do so. Are they lazy? Can

they

> > > >> just wake up some morning and find Jesus? Why do so many people suffer

> > under

> > > >> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?

> > > >>

> > > >>> Implied is the possibility that people may find meaning and

> > > >>> satisfaction in " unpaid " work and use an otherwise unsavory " paid "

> > > >>> position to finance their true vocation, thus imbuing the " paid "

> > > >>> position with meaning--the same way people may cheerfully perform

> > > >>> various daily drudgeries and chores when they know there is a greater

> > > >>> purpose to it (such as soaking grains, making bone broths and taking

> > > >>> the effort to procure high-quality food [i realize there are far more

> > > >>> unpleasant chores but I saw an analogy.])

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Dr. Cowan phrases it much more eloquantly in his book:

> > > >>> " There is no greater joy in life than to have purpose, to know what

> > > >>> your life means. Some find this meaning through their families and

> > > >>> other relationships. Others meet their destiny through their work or

> > > >>> through activities like music and sports. Those who have discovered

> > > >>> the purpose of their lives...can expect to achieve vibrant health and

> > > >>> longevity... "

> > > >>>

> > > >>> I will go further to quote Joe 's advice to " follow your

> > > >>> bliss. " He said if you do, paths and doors will open to you along the

> > > >>> way. I have personally experienced this and believe it applies to

> > > >>> everyone, as he intended, including " these people " referenced above.

> > > >>>

> > > >>> While I am extremely flattered that I was able to provoke your

> > > >>> response, my observations of your postings in the past lead me to

> > > >>> believe that I haven't the stamina to maintain my stand with you, and

> > > >>> I worry that I won't feel satisfied with my attempts at compassionate

> > > >>> communication. I request that you realize I am very nervous over this

> > > >>> exchange.

> > > >>> B.

> > > >>

> > > >> Our point of disagreement is not whether it is possible for a person to

> > > >> attain enlightenment, a narrow definition of which might be to find

" their

> > > >> bliss " in the most horrible of circumstances. I think that you

trivilialize

> > > >> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many

are

> > so

> > > >> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge

about

> > > >> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of

those

> > in

> > > >> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their bliss.

> > > >>

November 29, 2004

>

> Since the word " circumstances " keeps coming up and seems to be a point

> of conflict, I am trying to understand as clearly as possible where do

> you think a set of circumstances comes from. I think you're saying

> that " they just are " and I don't disagree, much less deny that

> circumstances play a role. What I'm asking you is this: how does one

> rise above a set of undesirable circumstances? How would you counsel

> someone? That is the part I'm not hearing.

>

I'm not sure that there is any ONE answer. Some circumstances would involve an

intimate knowledge of the person, and some circumstances would involve perhaps a

different outlook in general. All circumstances can be muted somewhat by

changing one's outlook on life, in whatever way that one can do it. I think that

in order to do this, one must be able to apply time and effort, and these things

are not always available to people, nor is the knowledge about how to proceed.

Deliberately vague - YES. If I know how to change people's lives I would have

written a superficial self help book about it by now!

But, also, because specifically and generally how to help people come to grips

emotionally and philosophically with dire circumstances is not really relevant

to my point. My point was more that these circumstances exist, and that many

people have desperate lives, and do not have the ability to help themselves,

sometimes not even a little bit. I was arguing against an attitude, expressed

somewhat explicitly, that these people were " whining " , and that they shouldn't

complain because they had it better than others in even worse situations.

> When I think of people stuck in arbitrary misfortune and unable to see

> past it while others call them lazy or whining, I feel frustrated and

> hopeless and my need is to know a solution, or a hope of a solution.

Nothing wrong with that. You can try to help people by helping individuals or

groups to deal with their circumstances, or you can try to change external

circumstances. Originally, I recall, someone reacted somewhat adversely to the

notion of labor rights.

>

> I'm not trying to psychoanalyze but to understand your POV for my own

> enrichment--I have a lot to learn.

> Thank you,

> B.

>

ok

>

> On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:32:17 +0000, implode7@...

> wrote:

> >

> > -------------- Original message --------------

> >

> > >

> > > Gene,

> > >

> > > I agree that every person has value. How exactly that can manifest itself

> > > > specifically is a difficult question. I don't believe in a personal God,

> > > > imbuing each person with this unique gift. So, depending on someone's

> > > > circumstances, which comprise everything about that person genetically,

> > > > environmentally, and experientially, that plays out in various ways. And

> > > > even if someone has this special gift, it does not mean that conditions

> are

> > > > right for them to find it. They might be just ready to find it, and then

a

> > > > meteorite strikes them...(perhaps the meteorite is following ITS bliss)

> > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

> > >

> > > I never said a person's individual traits were imbued by a personal

> > > God.

> > I didn't mean to imply that you said it. If one assumes that everyone has a

> unique gift, then, I don't see any other explanation for it. So I was starting

> out with the fact that I didn't believe in a personal God.

> > >You may assume-- for this discussion--they are a " given " , like

> > > their circumstances. But I hear you going back to this point again

> > > and again: circumstances, and I hear your frustration that some

> > > people's circumstances are " worse " than others and prevent them from

> > > achieving their goals--whatever those may be.

> > How can you deny that circumstances can prevent some people from achieving

> their goals? That would seem to be so obvious.

> > >People are oppressed by

> > > circumstances and this upsets you because your need for harmony and

> > > order in the world is not being met.

> > ? I don't see that you have pointed out a flaw in my argument, but you are

now

> psychoanalyzing my reason for making it?

> > >It particularly annoys you when

> > > such unfortunate people are judged as " lazy " or " whining " by people

> > > unable to comprehend the due force of these circumstances as then your

> > > needs for fairness and balance is also unmet.

> > I guess that, to some degree, is what having progressive politics is -

having

> compassion for people who somehow haven't been able to harness their unique

> 'gift' in order to achieve their goals, because of circumstances imposed upon

> them.

> > >Am I correct in what

> > > I'm hearing--please let me know.

> > Well, you seem to be hearing, but no listening.

> >

> > > Then I hear a still deeper frustration that there is no " one " to blame

> > > these arbitrary circumstances on, and wow, then I'm even depressed,

> > > now.

> > You've lost me here.

> > > Will you please clarify for me your ideas on the distribution of

> > > circumstances in this world?

> > Sorry - I don't have time for an essay. Isn't that a rather big topic? Ah -

I

> get it - you're being sarcastic.

> >

> > >

> > > I don't think that it is a matter of permission, or some 'thing' that is

> > > > permitting it. It just IS.

> > > ++++++++++++++++++++++=

> > > Yes, a poor choice of words by me and I stand corrected. Thank you.

> > >

> > > Thank you,

> > > B.

> >

> > ok

> > >

> > > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:47:16 -0800, Gene Schwartz wrote:

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Gene,

> > > > >

> > > > > I first would like to thank you for your thoughtful, considerate

> response.

> > > > >

> > > > > But you claim that everyone can find meaningful work, regardless of

> their

> > > > >> circumstances. So, I wonder how you regard those who do not seem to

be

> able

> > > > >> to do so, and regard themselves as unable to do so. Are they lazy?

Can

> they

> > > > >> just wake up some morning and find Jesus? Why do so many people

suffer

> > > under

> > > > >> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?

> > > > > ++++++++++++

> > > > > I think that everyone has a calling, yes--a specialty, a gift to offer

> > > > > the world--regardless of their material, physical, or other,

> > > > > circumstances and that they will do better by themselves--and the rest

> > > > > of us--by pursuing that unique ability/dream than by living their

> > > > > lives according to the expectations of others.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I agree that every person has value. How exactly that can manifest

itself

> > > > specifically is a difficult question. I don't believe in a personal God,

> > > > imbuing each person with this unique gift. So, depending on someone's

> > > > circumstances, which comprise everything about that person genetically,

> > > > environmentally, and experientially, that plays out in various ways. And

> > > > even if someone has this special gift, it does not mean that conditions

> are

> > > > right for them to find it. They might be just ready to find it, and then

a

> > > > meteorite strikes them...(perhaps the meteorite is following ITS bliss)

> > > >

> > > > > How do I regard those who do not seem able to do so? I don't call

> > > > > people names, declare what they " are " or classify non-specific groups

> > > > > of people as " lazy " or anything else that implies judgement.

> > > >

> > > > What I object to is when those who are in circumstances that make it far

> > > > more difficult for them to manifest whatever gift they might possess, or

> > > > whatever meaning they might find in their circumstances, are demeaned by

> > > > others for not finding it. Another poster, in a context where we had

been

> > > > talking about rights of laborers etc, referred to complaints that people

> > > > might make about their situation, as whining. I object to that, and view

> it

> > > > as negatively judgemental. I think I'm losing track of who said what, at

> > > > this point.

> > > >

> > > > >An

> > > > > analogy would be to liken this unfortunate group to the population

> > > > > that eats and suffers the consequences of SAD, or the ill people

> > > > > seeking medical care in all the wrong places. I see the number one

> > > > > trouble in the world as ignorance--and the resultant suffering.

> > > > > (Quickly, I'll add that I have my own ration of ignorance and pray

> > > > > daily for its rapid destruction.)

> > > > > Why do so many people suffer this malady? That is *the* mystery--how

> > > > > can I answer this? What obstacles block a person from becoming their

> > > > > true, highest self?

> > > > > Why is suffering permitted on this earth? I don't know, Gene, but I

> > > > > do my best to alleviate it

> > > > > and I never meant to imply I thought it could be easily cured.

> > > >

> > > > I don't think that it is a matter of permission, or some 'thing' that is

> > > > permitting it. It just IS.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Our point of disagreement is not whether it is possible for a person

to

> > > > >> attain enlightenment, a narrow definition of which might be to find

> " their

> > > > >> bliss " in the most horrible of circumstances. I think that you

> trivilialize

> > > > >> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many

> are

> > > so

> > > > >> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge

> about

> > > > >> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of

> those

> > > in

> > > > >> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their

bliss.

> > > > >>

> > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++

> > > > > I never said " find " their bliss--I said " follow " their bliss, which

> > > > > suggests a very different experience. And I was quoting J. .

> > > > > Far from trivial, I think this is one of the most critical,

> > > > > valient--and potentially dangerous, in some social circles--choices a

> > > > > person can make.

> > > > > As for having an elitist attitude, it would be elitist if I thought

> > > > > certain groups of people or even individuals were *incapable* of

> > > > > having a bliss and following it.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > That is true. But I believe that it can be very difficult (though

> obviously

> > > > not impossible) for someone to follow (one must find it in order to

follow

> > > > it, I would think, but this is all metaphor anyway), if one's attention

is

> > > > constantly forced elsewhere by one's circumstances. So, it may be only

the

> > > > truly remarkable person who can accomplish this in the worst of

> > > > circumstances.

> > > >

> > > > > In fact, it is this very thing that I think bolsters one through those

> > > > > dire circumstances, not being glib at all.

> > > > > B.

> > > > >

> > > > > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:33:48 -0800, Gene Schwartz

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > >>

> > > > >>>

> > > > >>> I think that if you believe that, for many, many poor or struggling

> > > people,

> > > > >>>> that finding meaningful work that will pay the bills is possible to

> find,

> > > > >>>> you are naïve. Are these people just lazy?

> > > > >>>

> > > > >>> Gene,

> > > > >>> Whoever " these people " are you refer to, I don't think in such

> > > > >>> judgemental terms re: their motives.

> > > > >>> My stance is this:

> > > > >>> Meaningful work is a factor in one's long-term health and happiness

as

> > > > >>> important as eating wholesome food.

> > > > >>>

> > > > >>

> > > > >> But you claim that everyone can find meaningful work, regardless of

> their

> > > > >> circumstances. So, I wonder how you regard those who do not seem to

be

> able

> > > > >> to do so, and regard themselves as unable to do so. Are they lazy?

Can

> they

> > > > >> just wake up some morning and find Jesus? Why do so many people

suffer

> > > under

> > > > >> this malady that you seem to think can be so easily cured?

> > > > >>

> > > > >>> Implied is the possibility that people may find meaning and

> > > > >>> satisfaction in " unpaid " work and use an otherwise unsavory " paid "

> > > > >>> position to finance their true vocation, thus imbuing the " paid "

> > > > >>> position with meaning--the same way people may cheerfully perform

> > > > >>> various daily drudgeries and chores when they know there is a

greater

> > > > >>> purpose to it (such as soaking grains, making bone broths and taking

> > > > >>> the effort to procure high-quality food [i realize there are far

more

> > > > >>> unpleasant chores but I saw an analogy.])

> > > > >>>

> > > > >>> Dr. Cowan phrases it much more eloquantly in his book:

> > > > >>> " There is no greater joy in life than to have purpose, to know what

> > > > >>> your life means. Some find this meaning through their families and

> > > > >>> other relationships. Others meet their destiny through their work or

> > > > >>> through activities like music and sports. Those who have discovered

> > > > >>> the purpose of their lives...can expect to achieve vibrant health

and

> > > > >>> longevity... "

> > > > >>>

> > > > >>> I will go further to quote Joe 's advice to " follow your

> > > > >>> bliss. " He said if you do, paths and doors will open to you along

the

> > > > >>> way. I have personally experienced this and believe it applies to

> > > > >>> everyone, as he intended, including " these people " referenced above.

> > > > >>>

> > > > >>> While I am extremely flattered that I was able to provoke your

> > > > >>> response, my observations of your postings in the past lead me to

> > > > >>> believe that I haven't the stamina to maintain my stand with you,

and

> > > > >>> I worry that I won't feel satisfied with my attempts at

compassionate

> > > > >>> communication. I request that you realize I am very nervous over

this

> > > > >>> exchange.

> > > > >>> B.

> > > > >>

> > > > >> Our point of disagreement is not whether it is possible for a person

to

> > > > >> attain enlightenment, a narrow definition of which might be to find

> " their

> > > > >> bliss " in the most horrible of circumstances. I think that you

> trivilialize

> > > > >> the difficulty involved in reaching that point in life, and that many

> are

> > > so

> > > > >> involved in the intricacies of their lives and/or lack the knowledge

> about

> > > > >> how to do so, that the attitude is quite elitist and unforgiving of

> those

> > > in

> > > > >> dire circumstances who are not quite so glib about finding their

bliss.

> > > > >>

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