Re: Hey Glutenator!

[Guest guest]

>Couple days ago I tried making my own " regular " bread to see if I would

>react to it the same way I do any kind of store-bought breads (even the

>organic supposedly non-additive kinds).

>

>Please feel free to ignore this if it's the dumbest question you've ever

>seen on the planet.

It's not a dumb question, but there really isn't a good answer. The ONLY

way to know if you have an IgA intolerance to wheat is to do the test.

MOST people who are intolerant (about 70%) have no symptoms when

they eat wheat, and the long term damage can take 20 or 40 years to

notice.

And some people react to wheat in other ways ... there

are some hints that people who don't have an intolerance to wheat still

can get indigestion from it and/or damaged villi. And storebought bread

as you pointed out has all kinds of issues.

Homemade bread (esp. sourdough) has a lot less gluten, and

the NT recipes denature a lot of the " bad " part of the protein.

So it's not surprising it's easier on your system. The weight gain

though, might be more fluid in the intestines ... if the gluten interferes

with digestion you end up with more bacterial growth and bulkier

stools too.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

I'm scheduled for the endoscopy to find that 50 year old damage. Do you

know anything about a gluten challenge, how long it takes for the intestine

to heal or how long the challenge might be to be useful under these sort of

circumstance. I took the IgA blood test, was " weakly positive " got off

wheat, rye, barley and the hidden bits for about 6 weeks. The GI doc

decided that a biopsy would be a good idea and then they scheduled me for

the Monday after Christmas. The info I've gotten from people said that I

should be on gluten for 12 weeks - there are not 12 weeks between now and

then, so on Friday I had some graham crackers, bread and pie (great

restaurant!) and then pancakes for breakfast Saturday. BAD IDEA! I was

miserable all day Saturday and I'm not back to how I was feeling on

Thursday. I don't want to do a gluten challenge, but could if it were only

a day or three. Some one said not to do it at all - that it could trigger

Lupus. Now I'm completely confused. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Connie

_____

From: Heidi Schuppenhauer [mailto:heidis@...]

Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:46 PM

Subject: Re: Hey Glutenator!

>Couple days ago I tried making my own " regular " bread to see if I would

>react to it the same way I do any kind of store-bought breads (even the

>organic supposedly non-additive kinds).

>

>Please feel free to ignore this if it's the dumbest question you've ever

>seen on the planet.

It's not a dumb question, but there really isn't a good answer. The ONLY

way to know if you have an IgA intolerance to wheat is to do the test.

MOST people who are intolerant (about 70%) have no symptoms when

they eat wheat, and the long term damage can take 20 or 40 years to

notice.

And some people react to wheat in other ways ... there

are some hints that people who don't have an intolerance to wheat still

can get indigestion from it and/or damaged villi. And storebought bread

as you pointed out has all kinds of issues.

Homemade bread (esp. sourdough) has a lot less gluten, and

the NT recipes denature a lot of the " bad " part of the protein.

So it's not surprising it's easier on your system. The weight gain

though, might be more fluid in the intestines ... if the gluten interferes

with digestion you end up with more bacterial growth and bulkier

stools too.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> And some people react to wheat in other ways ... there

> are some hints that people who don't have an intolerance to wheat still

> can get indigestion from it and/or damaged villi. And storebought bread

> as you pointed out has all kinds of issues.

Just to reinforce that point... my daughter has definate " brain

allergies " , no stuffy nose or rashes. Wheat is the worst of grains for

her. It makes her " weepy " , depessed, overly sensitive, moody...and it

lasts for up to 4 days each time she eats any. Corn, on the other

hand, makes her " high " , with all the wonderful " drug withdrawals " . And

those are just the worst two.

L.

[Guest guest]

>Heidi,

>

>I'm scheduled for the endoscopy to find that 50 year old damage. Do you

>know anything about a gluten challenge, how long it takes for the intestine

>to heal or how long the challenge might be to be useful under these sort of

>circumstance. I took the IgA blood test, was " weakly positive " got off

>wheat, rye, barley and the hidden bits for about 6 weeks. The GI doc

>decided that a biopsy would be a good idea and then they scheduled me for

>the Monday after Christmas. The info I've gotten from people said that I

>should be on gluten for 12 weeks - there are not 12 weeks between now and

>then, so on Friday I had some graham crackers, bread and pie (great

>restaurant!) and then pancakes for breakfast Saturday. BAD IDEA! I was

>miserable all day Saturday and I'm not back to how I was feeling on

>Thursday. I don't want to do a gluten challenge, but could if it were only

>a day or three. Some one said not to do it at all - that it could trigger

>Lupus. Now I'm completely confused. Any thoughts or suggestions?

>

>Connie

Connie:

Did the doc order the challenge? If so, did he say what the goal was?

The consensus on the celiac group is that gluten challenges are a *bad* idea.

One lady got so sick on the challenge she ended up in the ER ... and still

showed no damage or high IgA levels! Some folks have gotten permanent

damage or side effects in other areas from the challenge. Besides, the

consensus among researchers is that " gut damage " really isn't what

defines gluten intolerance ... the " gut damage " that was the original

hallmark of celiac heals fairly quickly, and Dermatitis Herpetiformis

has been considered " celiac " even though it doesn't always have

any gut symptoms.

I don't think the docs realize just how painful eating wheat can

be to someone who obviously reacts to it. I " challenged " myself

ONCE with a slice of pizza and scared the daylights out of myself.

I can see me on fear factor ... eat a live bug or a slice of bread? Shoot,

I'll take the bug anytime ...

Now doing an endoscopy might be a good idea to check for non-healed

damage or cancer (esp. after 50 years). Though swallowing a capsule will

check more of the intestine than an endoscopy will, and it is a heck of

a lot more comfortable.

If you show even " weak " IgA in your blood it means you produce enough

that it leaks from your intestines into your blood, which means you DO

react to wheat. No surprise there, since it makes you sick too (a lot of

folks react strongly to wheat but don't feel symptoms, so the test

is useful!). If you have an IgA reaction to wheat and eat it, it will affect

your health, plus, in your case, you won't feel good, so really, what's

the point in further testing?

So, I'd ask yourself (and/or your doc), what you are really wanting

to get out of the test. The usual answer is to " prove " the person

has celiac, but from a medical standpoint that view is out of date.

Also from an insurance viewpoint, " celiac " is NOT something you

want on your record. " Weakly gluten intolerant " is far better!

Sometimes people need proof in order to stick to a GF

diet, but that isn't generally a problem with folks who get obviously

ill. If you want to check for unhealed damage though, then a gluten

challenge isn't good, because you want things to be as healed

as they can be before the test.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Heidi. This is the best and most logical explanation I've heard.

I'll take this up with the doc.

What do you mean about Also from an insurance viewpoint, " celiac " is NOT

something you want on your record. " Weakly gluten intolerant " is far better!

? Why? I've heard it the other way around as well.

Connie

_____

From: Heidi Schuppenhauer [mailto:heidis@...]

Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:05 PM

Subject: RE: Hey Glutenator!

>Heidi,

>

>I'm scheduled for the endoscopy to find that 50 year old damage. Do you

>know anything about a gluten challenge, how long it takes for the intestine

>to heal or how long the challenge might be to be useful under these sort of

>circumstance. I took the IgA blood test, was " weakly positive " got off

>wheat, rye, barley and the hidden bits for about 6 weeks. The GI doc

>decided that a biopsy would be a good idea and then they scheduled me for

>the Monday after Christmas. The info I've gotten from people said that I

>should be on gluten for 12 weeks - there are not 12 weeks between now and

>then, so on Friday I had some graham crackers, bread and pie (great

>restaurant!) and then pancakes for breakfast Saturday. BAD IDEA! I was

>miserable all day Saturday and I'm not back to how I was feeling on

>Thursday. I don't want to do a gluten challenge, but could if it were only

>a day or three. Some one said not to do it at all - that it could trigger

>Lupus. Now I'm completely confused. Any thoughts or suggestions?

>

>Connie

Connie:

Did the doc order the challenge? If so, did he say what the goal was?

The consensus on the celiac group is that gluten challenges are a *bad*

idea.

One lady got so sick on the challenge she ended up in the ER ... and still

showed no damage or high IgA levels! Some folks have gotten permanent

damage or side effects in other areas from the challenge. Besides, the

consensus among researchers is that " gut damage " really isn't what

defines gluten intolerance ... the " gut damage " that was the original

hallmark of celiac heals fairly quickly, and Dermatitis Herpetiformis

has been considered " celiac " even though it doesn't always have

any gut symptoms.

I don't think the docs realize just how painful eating wheat can

be to someone who obviously reacts to it. I " challenged " myself

ONCE with a slice of pizza and scared the daylights out of myself.

I can see me on fear factor ... eat a live bug or a slice of bread? Shoot,

I'll take the bug anytime ...

Now doing an endoscopy might be a good idea to check for non-healed

damage or cancer (esp. after 50 years). Though swallowing a capsule will

check more of the intestine than an endoscopy will, and it is a heck of

a lot more comfortable.

If you show even " weak " IgA in your blood it means you produce enough

that it leaks from your intestines into your blood, which means you DO

react to wheat. No surprise there, since it makes you sick too (a lot of

folks react strongly to wheat but don't feel symptoms, so the test

is useful!). If you have an IgA reaction to wheat and eat it, it will affect

your health, plus, in your case, you won't feel good, so really, what's

the point in further testing?

So, I'd ask yourself (and/or your doc), what you are really wanting

to get out of the test. The usual answer is to " prove " the person

has celiac, but from a medical standpoint that view is out of date.

Also from an insurance viewpoint, " celiac " is NOT something you

want on your record. " Weakly gluten intolerant " is far better!

Sometimes people need proof in order to stick to a GF

diet, but that isn't generally a problem with folks who get obviously

ill. If you want to check for unhealed damage though, then a gluten

challenge isn't good, because you want things to be as healed

as they can be before the test.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

At 01:45 PM 11/16/04 -0800, you wrote:

>It's not a dumb question, but there really isn't a good answer. The ONLY

>way to know if you have an IgA intolerance to wheat is to do the test.

>MOST people who are intolerant (about 70%) have no symptoms when

>they eat wheat, and the long term damage can take 20 or 40 years to

>notice.

>

>And some people react to wheat in other ways ... there

>are some hints that people who don't have an intolerance to wheat still

>can get indigestion from it and/or damaged villi. And storebought bread

>as you pointed out has all kinds of issues.

>

>Homemade bread (esp. sourdough) has a lot less gluten, and

>the NT recipes denature a lot of the " bad " part of the protein.

>So it's not surprising it's easier on your system. The weight gain

>though, might be more fluid in the intestines ... if the gluten interferes

>with digestion you end up with more bacterial growth and bulkier

>stools too.

Okay, thanks. And thanks to all who posted after this, too, I see some

parallels.

I'm thinking that given the variabilities of the tests, I'll just go with

my gut (haha no pun intended), not bother with that, and just avoid the

stuff like the ... ummmm ... plague? Sometimes intuition is enough.

By the way ... what happened to the Deputy Glutenator? Last I heard,

she'd be back in a few days, but eek, that was WEEKS ago!

Kaaaaaaaaaaatjaaaaa!!!! Come baaaaaaaaack!!!!!

(Translation: stop having so much fun without us, come back and let us

torment you some more)

MFJ

I wanna live! I wanna experience the Universe! And I wanna eat pie!

~Urgo

[Guest guest]

Lillig wrote:

> Just to reinforce that point... my daughter has definate " brain

> allergies " , no stuffy nose or rashes. Wheat is the worst of grains for

> her. It makes her " weepy " , depessed, overly sensitive, moody...and it

> lasts for up to 4 days each time she eats any.

This is exactly what I see in my 11 yo. Only, it usually passes within,

say, 12 hours. Of course, there's the family history, so it's no big

surprise.

How's the move thing going, ? I hope well.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

So in your opinion, if someone has mild to moderate symptoms of gluten

intolerence what is the best type of testing to do and why?

TIA,

Sherri

[Guest guest]

Ugh! Not at all yet! I'm still doing a sort and pack of unessentials,

but as of yet there is no place for us to land if we leave. I'll let

you know when we get it figured out.

Thanks! L.

>

> How's the move thing going, ? I hope well.

>

> Deanna

>

[Guest guest]

>Just to reinforce that point... my daughter has definate " brain

>allergies " , no stuffy nose or rashes. Wheat is the worst of grains for

>her. It makes her " weepy " , depessed, overly sensitive, moody...and it

>lasts for up to 4 days each time she eats any. Corn, on the other

>hand, makes her " high " , with all the wonderful " drug withdrawals " . And

>those are just the worst two.

>

> L.

Yeah, and that makes it SOOO complicated. Krispin Sullivan has a point

too, that lectins might be dangerous even of a person doesn't have

an immunologic reaction to them. I've been using the non-lectin

(an non nutritious) plain starches more and more in baked goods,

and just plain eating fewer grains anyway. Corn makes my finger

joints swell, but AFAIK I'm not allergic to it.

I also feel a bit obligated to give my kids better " food memories "

than I got. I mean, I don't LIKE cake all that much, but I feel like

I have to have it for celebrations because it is so much a part

of my growing up memories. But your own kids are born with

NO food memories, so whatever you cook will have this special

place in their memories. That's a lot of responsibility, one I have

not managed to deal with successfully yet.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>What do you mean about Also from an insurance viewpoint, " celiac " is NOT

>something you want on your record. " Weakly gluten intolerant " is far better!

>

>? Why? I've heard it the other way around as well.

>

>

>Connie

Last I heard, " gluten intolerance " was still off the insurance company

radar, but " celiac " is one of those red flag items that can make

your rates go up (depending on what state you live in). Reason being

that untreated celiacs have a very high death rate, statistically, and

are prone to cancer and heart disease etc., and the insurance folks

don't quite believe that anyone will really stick to the diet. One lady

on the celiac list worked at an insurance company, and said a person was

allowed 250 points of health risk ... celiac counted for something like

150. Other people reported having problems once diagnosed.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>So in your opinion, if someone has mild to moderate symptoms of gluten

intolerence what is the best type of testing to do and why?

>

>TIA,

>Sherr

Dr. Fine's stool test seems to be the most accurate in this country (US). The

" rectal challenge " might be better, or cheaper, but it isn't available here. The

saliva test from York might work too, I don't know what the statistics are on

it, but it checks for more IgA allergies and it has a reasonable cost. But if a

person is eating gluten, often the blood tests work ok. The issues get really

complicated: none of the tests are positive if a person has been avoiding

gluten, and a lot of IgA intolerant people are low in ALL IgA and so have to

rely on IgG or TtG testing, neither of which is very accurate.

Right now there aren't any good comprehensive answers ... if a blood test shows

positive though (and it will, for about 1/3 of the people with gluten

intolerance) then you can stop there.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>>I've been using the non-lectin

(an non nutritious) plain starches more and more in baked goods,

and just plain eating fewer grains anyway.

Heidi Jean<<

~~~Heidi,

What are the non-lectin plain starches you are using?

Carol

[Guest guest]

But if a person is eating gluten, often the blood tests work ok.

Right now there aren't any good comprehensive answers ... if a blood test shows

positive though (and it will, for about 1/3 of the people with gluten

intolerance) then you can stop there.

Heidi Jean

Thank you Heidi. Now let me ask this...when you say an IgA...do you mean the

general IgA or is it broken down more specific for the lab testing? I know

there are a lot of very specific tests the lab can run and I am trying to make

sure that I go for the right one!

Sherri

[Guest guest]

Heidi

My oldest being 12 next month, and starting our " weird food " journey

about 7.5 years ago, we have always considered trying things as

adventure! Cake is required for birthdays (regardless of what we moms

think! lol), and we have over the years had an adventure in cake

making.

This year has been our crowning achievment... peanut butter, carob

cake! Looked like regular cake, texture like regular cake, tasted like

regular cake... the invited guests didn't even know it was " weird

food " !

Is that the kind of special food memory you are talking about?... or

is everyone gathered around the kitchen table for a piece of freshly

cut pineapple more what you mean? Can the rest of us moms help you

deal with successfully creating those special food memories in your

house?

L.

>

> Yeah, and that makes it SOOO complicated. Krispin Sullivan has a point

> too, that lectins might be dangerous even of a person doesn't have

> an immunologic reaction to them. I've been using the non-lectin

> (an non nutritious) plain starches more and more in baked goods,

> and just plain eating fewer grains anyway. Corn makes my finger

> joints swell, but AFAIK I'm not allergic to it.

>

> I also feel a bit obligated to give my kids better " food memories "

> than I got. I mean, I don't LIKE cake all that much, but I feel like

> I have to have it for celebrations because it is so much a part

> of my growing up memories. But your own kids are born with

> NO food memories, so whatever you cook will have this special

> place in their memories. That's a lot of responsibility, one I have

> not managed to deal with successfully yet.

>

>

> Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>~~~Heidi,

>What are the non-lectin plain starches you are using?

>Carol

Corn starch, rice flour, tapioca starch, potato starch.

And potato flour: potatoes don't seem to bother anyone.

Ground nuts I add too, they don't seem to bother anyone

tho they should probably be soaked etc.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Thank you Heidi. Now let me ask this...when you say an IgA...do you mean the

general IgA or is it broken down more specific for the lab testing? I know

there are a lot of very specific tests the lab can run and I am trying to make

sure that I go for the right one!

>

>Sherri

The official name for the " standard blood testing " , I think, is the " Celiac

panel " .. there is an IgA antigliadin test, a Ttg test, an IgG antigliadin test,

and a total IgA test. The total IgA is to detect IgA deficiency, which a lot of

folks have. Ttg doesn't depend on IgA, but it fails to detect a lot of celiac

cases, and IgG will detect gluten intolerance but the person might not have the

IgA type (if you have IgA intolerance you will likely have IgG, but not vice

versa). Anyway, I'm not THAT well versed on the tests ... I think there is a

more exact writup at www.celiac.com, or google on " gluten intolerance testing " .

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Is that the kind of special food memory you are talking about?... or

>is everyone gathered around the kitchen table for a piece of freshly

>cut pineapple more what you mean? Can the rest of us moms help you

>deal with successfully creating those special food memories in your

>house?

> L.

Well, whenever we went to the doctor, my Mom took me out for pie

after. So I always wanted to go " out " for something after a doctor

visit. And many of our celebrations and travel excursions involved

eating out. And we would have big dishes of ice cream with chocolate

syrup etc. So whenever I felt depressed or deprived, I'd eat out!

Or eat some candy or whatever the " sin food " was.

I STILL like food celebrations, but I'd rather they be tied to food that

is likely to be ok to eat. Gooey cakes are ok if they are homemade,

but I'm happier if they regard, say, a steak as a real nice meal, and that

the whole family does tend to gravitate to fruit as a " yummy snack " even

when there is junky stuff around. When I splurge at the store I tend to

get something like a bunch of persimmons which we eat greedily!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>>Corn starch, rice flour, tapioca starch, potato starch.

And potato flour: potatoes don't seem to bother anyone.

Ground nuts I add too, they don't seem to bother anyone

tho they should probably be soaked etc.<<

~~~I asked because I wondered if there were alternatives I've been missing, but

actually, rice, potatoes and corn, all have lectins, according to Krispin

Sullivan:

" The major known potentially 'toxic' lectin containing food groups are grains,

especially wheat and wheat germ but also quinoa, rice, buckwheat, oats, rye,

barley, millet and corn. "

And farther down, she also lists:

" nightshade (includes potato, tomato, eggplant and pepper). "

http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

I can't get away with eating any grains, and I imagine it's because they all

have lectins. (Although, fresh corn isn't too bad once in awhile.) I do ok

with nuts, though, so I use nut flour once in awhile for cake, and arrowroot for

thickening.

Carol

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>I can't get away with eating any grains, and I imagine it's because they all

have lectins. (Although, fresh corn isn't too bad once in awhile.) I do ok

with nuts, though, so I use nut flour once in awhile for cake, and arrowroot for

thickening.

>Carol

They DO have lectins, but there are very few in the pure starch component. Just

about all the proteins are removed in the starch making process (in Europe very

purified wheat starch is even allowed for celiacs). If you have an allergy to

the protein, then trace amounts wreck havoc ... but if it's a lectin problem,

tiny amounts aren't so much of an issue. Anyway, I can't handle popcorn, or

ground corn, but corn starch seems ok.

Arrowroot is supposed to be darn good stuff though, and potato starch works good

for most things. Tapioca too, which comes from a root. If I could replicate my

bread without using corn starch ....

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi Jean

Sorry, haven't I mentioned it yet - I've been replacing the corn starch with

tapioca, a bit more each time I make it. I've got it to 3/4 cup corn starch,

1 1/2 cups tapioca. Aiming for all tapioca, rice, potato, with no corn. I

can buy a tapioca bread here, so I was pretty sure it could be done.Seems to

be working so far.

Mind you I need to be clear, I haven;t tested that as a whole loaf. But it

made great focaccia bread. I took it to a party a friend of mine who's

gluten intolerant was hosting. Not only did she love it, but her Dad who is

scathing about GF food, was caught scoffing some.

Deb

Re: Hey Glutenator!

>I can't get away with eating any grains, and I imagine it's because they

all have lectins. (Although, fresh corn isn't too bad once in awhile.) I

do ok with nuts, though, so I use nut flour once in awhile for cake, and

arrowroot for thickening.

>Carol

They DO have lectins, but there are very few in the pure starch component.

Just about all the proteins are removed in the starch making process (in

Europe very purified wheat starch is even allowed for celiacs). If you have

an allergy to the protein, then trace amounts wreck havoc ... but if it's a

lectin problem, tiny amounts aren't so much of an issue. Anyway, I can't

handle popcorn, or ground corn, but corn starch seems ok.

Arrowroot is supposed to be darn good stuff though, and potato starch

works good for most things. Tapioca too, which comes from a root. If I could

replicate my bread without using corn starch ....

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

> Ground nuts I add too, they don't seem to bother anyone

> tho they should probably be soaked etc.

Helga,

Can I grind nuts first and then soak in kefir whey with similar

results? I just about always have whole almonds soaking in the frig for

nut milk - my son loves to peel the skins off for me, lol. I just think

for nuts like pecans it would be easier to grind first and then soak.

And I just haven't the time to do the NT crispy nuts very often -

especially for flour - as it is just too many steps.

And how about that chick pea flour? I sometimes get the Bob's Red Mill

brand, because it makes THE best straight substitute for unbleached

white flour in baked goods. I made a fruitcake modified from Sally

Fallon's Orange cake and poured vin de liqueur and whey over the

finished product. Anyway, I used that garbanzo bean flour, but soaked

it for 48 hours in kefir and kefir whey. Do you think I helped

neutralize any phytates? And are there any other concerns with this

kind of flour (other than it is not freshly ground ...). It sure comes

in handy sometimes.

Thank you.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>Sorry, haven't I mentioned it yet - I've been replacing the corn starch with

>tapioca, a bit more each time I make it. I've got it to 3/4 cup corn starch,

>1 1/2 cups tapioca. Aiming for all tapioca, rice, potato, with no corn. I

>can buy a tapioca bread here, so I was pretty sure it could be done.Seems to

>be working so far.

You certainly can make it from just tapioca ... I've had problems with the

whole loaf tapioca, but there is a method (not done by me successfully yet)

of boiling the water WITH the tapioca, which makes a gooey mess that

actually works like bread dough. If I get it to work right I'll give you

the recipe!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Can I grind nuts first and then soak in kefir whey with similar

>results? I just about always have whole almonds soaking in the frig for

>nut milk - my son loves to peel the skins off for me, lol. I just think

>for nuts like pecans it would be easier to grind first and then soak.

>And I just haven't the time to do the NT crispy nuts very often -

>especially for flour - as it is just too many steps.

If you have them soaking, you could just grind them (put them in

the water, puree them in the blender, then continue as per the

recipe). Or put the almond flour in kefir, like you say. I'm not sure

exactly what the saltwater soak does for nuts, it does change the

texture, but I'm not sure if the idea is to pour off the soaking water

which carries away the bad stuff (like with beans, you need to TOSS

the water, I think).

>And how about that chick pea flour? I sometimes get the Bob's Red Mill

>brand, because it makes THE best straight substitute for unbleached

>white flour in baked goods. I made a fruitcake modified from Sally

>Fallon's Orange cake and poured vin de liqueur and whey over the

>finished product. Anyway, I used that garbanzo bean flour, but soaked

>it for 48 hours in kefir and kefir whey. Do you think I helped

>neutralize any phytates? And are there any other concerns with this

>kind of flour (other than it is not freshly ground ...). It sure comes

>in handy sometimes.

Chick pea and bean flours don't get along with me at all, but yeah, if

you ferment it I'd think it would help. I avoid them partly because

I don't think grinding raw beans is a great idea, partly because they

cost more, and partly because no one here liked the taste. But a lot

of people really love them, and they are easy to use.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>>If you have an allergy to the protein, then trace amounts wreck havoc ... but

if it's a lectin problem, tiny amounts aren't so much of an issue. Anyway, I

can't handle popcorn, or ground corn, but corn starch seems ok.<<

~~~Well, I don't know, because I don't have an allergy to all grains, but all

grains give me big problems. I think it could be a matter of one's state of

health. I have very poor health, so that could be why the lectins affect me so

badly. But, I'd like to point out, (for others who could avoid going down this

path that I have), that they didn't used to affect me as badly - it used to be

more like you say - that they weren't so much of an issue. The thing is, I kept

eating them, unwittingly, and now they ARE wreaking havoc.

Arrowroot is supposed to be darn good stuff though, and potato starch works good

for most things. Tapioca too, which comes from a root. If I could replicate my

bread without using corn starch ....

~~~On the BBD diet List for MS that I belong to, they are making lots of

different breads without gluten or corn. I've seen pictures of some and they

look delicious. (I've never tried them, because of my problems with all

grains.) Here's a link to one of the recipes, but there was one that everyone

was raving about that contained a lot of seeds and slightly different

ingredients that is not at the site. I only have it in a document file. But

here's the basic recipe, if you're interested:

http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=show & pageid=200

Carol

Heidi Jean