Re: Eden Foods sauerkraut - Pasteurization doesn't harm bacteria?!

[Guest guest]

@@@

On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:30:24 -0000, Adler

<wapriceisright@...> wrote:

>

> This is what an Eden Foods representative wrote about Eden pasteurized

> kraut.

>

> I welcome comments!

[...]

> Beneficial bacteria, in the form of lactic acid, a result of the

> fermentation process, is not harmed by the pasteurization process nor

> does it harm the quality of the cabbage.

@@@

That is sad. They are just trying to make money with a deceptive

product. They have no excuse because unpasteurized sauerkraut is

perfectly legal.

" in the form of " is twisting the truth enough to break it. The

lactic acid is a byproduct of the bacteria, not the bacteria

themselves. It's possible that the lactic acid itself confers many

benefits and that it's an excellent food even without the bacteria

themselves, but one way or another the bacteria are dead dead dead and

no amount of fancy phrasal footwork will change that. I have no

reason to doubt their claim that lactic acid is not harmed by

pasteurization, and this is a worthwhile aspect of their product to

promote. It distinguishes their product from the common junk

sauerkraut made with an industrial pickling process instead of

lacto-fermentation.

The phrase " quality of the cabbage " is also misleading vagary. I

suppose you could define " quality " in a way to make this true, but the

pasteurization obviously reduces the levels of some vitamins and

probably has a subtle effect on the flavor, so if vitamin content and

flavor are part of your definition of " quality " and you don't go too

far out on an anti-synecdochal limb, then their claim would be false.

It's probably an excellent food; indeed, it could easily be of greater

value than many unpasteurized sauerkrauts if their soil is much

better, and the pasteurization doesn't make it a bad food in any way

( " less good " does *not* imply " bad " ), but they are making an

unnecessary compromise and trying to squirm their way out of its

logical impact on their market share.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

At 01:27 PM 10/5/04 -0400, you wrote:

>flavor are part of your definition of " quality " and you don't go too

>far out on an anti-synecdochal limb, then their claim would be false.

Okay, I'll bite (so to speak). " Synecdochal " ???? Anti- or otherwise.

MFJ

Everything connects. The Universe is not THAT chaotic. Beauty can

still be found in the most amazing places.

[Guest guest]

What about Bubbies? Is it pasteurized also? I want to make my own but

am so overwhelmed with other changes that I haven't got around to

learning this yet. Is Eden or Bubbies better than nothing at all?

> >

> > This is what an Eden Foods representative wrote about Eden

pasteurized

> > kraut.

> >

> > I welcome comments!

> [...]

> > Beneficial bacteria, in the form of lactic acid, a result of the

> > fermentation process, is not harmed by the pasteurization process

nor

> > does it harm the quality of the cabbage.

> @@@

>

> That is sad. They are just trying to make money with a deceptive

> product. They have no excuse because unpasteurized sauerkraut is

> perfectly legal.

>

> " in the form of " is twisting the truth enough to break it. The

> lactic acid is a byproduct of the bacteria, not the bacteria

> themselves. It's possible that the lactic acid itself confers many

> benefits and that it's an excellent food even without the bacteria

> themselves, but one way or another the bacteria are dead dead dead

and

> no amount of fancy phrasal footwork will change that. I have no

> reason to doubt their claim that lactic acid is not harmed by

> pasteurization, and this is a worthwhile aspect of their product to

> promote. It distinguishes their product from the common junk

> sauerkraut made with an industrial pickling process instead of

> lacto-fermentation.

>

> The phrase " quality of the cabbage " is also misleading vagary. I

> suppose you could define " quality " in a way to make this true, but

the

> pasteurization obviously reduces the levels of some vitamins and

> probably has a subtle effect on the flavor, so if vitamin content

and

> flavor are part of your definition of " quality " and you don't go too

> far out on an anti-synecdochal limb, then their claim would be

false.

>

> It's probably an excellent food; indeed, it could easily be of

greater

> value than many unpasteurized sauerkrauts if their soil is much

> better, and the pasteurization doesn't make it a bad food in any way

> ( " less good " does *not* imply " bad " ), but they are making an

> unnecessary compromise and trying to squirm their way out of its

> logical impact on their market share.

>

> Mike

> SE Pennsylvania

>

> The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

> What about Bubbies? Is it pasteurized also? I want to make my own but

> am so overwhelmed with other changes that I haven't got around to

> learning this yet. Is Eden or Bubbies better than nothing at all?

Oh , it's SO EASY! It's almost as easy as kombucha. Start with

kimchi if you need to, which is even easier, and you don't have to put

in the hot peppers if you don't like them.

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.wisforwomen.com

http://www.knitting911.net * http://www.tomformayor.org

[Guest guest]

@@@

> What about Bubbies? Is it pasteurized also? I want to make my own but

> am so overwhelmed with other changes that I haven't got around to

> learning this yet. Is Eden or Bubbies better than nothing at all?

>

@@@

I guess it depends on what " nothing at all " means and the soil quality

of the farms where their cabbage comes from. If it's a choice

between long-term fasting/starvation and pasteurized lf-sauerkraut,

I'd definitely chow down. (Yes, that's a joke, but it's special case

of a valid point.) If it's a choice between a diet with inadequate

sources of the nutrients offered by pasteurized lf-sauerkraut (lactic

acid, minerals, cabbage-specific phytonutrients?, some vitamins,

fiber, whatever else) and a diet with this food added, then I'd chow

down too. But if you're already eating other fermented foods,

veggies, and whatever, and pasteurized lf-sauerkraut is nutritionally

redundant, then it can only be justified by aesthetic preferences

(e.g. kraut-cravings).

As far as I can tell to a good approximation (though I doubt it's 100%

true), anything you can get from the best kraut you could get from a

combination of other foods. Why not make kefir or kombucha, making

which being easier than shopping, and spend a few minutes ordering

some exquisite sea greens from NT-endorsed and NN-acclaimed Larch

Hanson (<http://www.alcasoft.com/seaweed/index.html>), shipped to your

home and offering a mineral lode at arm's reach in your pantry at all

times.

I don't know anything about Bubbies, but I know it's been discussed a

bunch of times in the past and others know (especially their

employees...)

To be fully practical and not theoretical, my advice is to just forget

kraut until you're ready to make it yourself or you find an optimal

source and instead buy artisanal kimchi from Korean stores!! A great

solution. Basically, good-quality unpasteurized commercial kimchi is

way easier to find and of greater value than comparable kraut. And

of course there is a school of thought out there that says kimchi is

simply more healthful than kraut in general. Personally I make both

myself, love both, each much more kimchi, but slightly prefer the

flavor of plain kraut.

Another good piece of advice is to just not worry about it and do

whatever, because the other changes you refer to are probably having

all kinds of wonderful effects!

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

Start with

kimchi if you need to, which is even easier, and you don't have to put

in the hot peppers if you don't like them.

Lynn,

Could you post your recipe for kimchi?

Thank you,

Sherri

[Guest guest]

> Could you post your recipe for kimchi?

Heidi is the undisputed kimchi queen here, but my favorite recipe is

here:

http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/node/view/8323

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.wisforwomen.com

http://www.knitting911.net * http://www.tomformayor.org

[Guest guest]

>

> What about Bubbies? Is it pasteurized also?

Although Bubbies is found in the refrigerated section, it is, in

fact, pasteurized. You can tell by the lid: it's sucked down under

vacuum from the heat of pasteurization.

[Guest guest]

> Heidi is the undisputed kimchi queen here, but my favorite recipe

is

> here:

>

> http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/node/view/8323

>

> Lynn S.

Lynn,

Why do you specify Kosher salt? Why not celtic sea salt? Also, do

you have a recipe for mixing up your own Herbes de Provence?

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

@@@

> Could you post your recipe for kimchi?

>

> Thank you,

> Sherri

@@@@

Heidi went beyond that a long time ago. Check the files section on

the group homepage for her PDF on kimchi, pictures and all! New

members may not realize there's a bunch of stuff in those files.

Also, the kimchi recipe in NT works and there are dozens out there

only a google away. My recipe is: take some cabbage, chop it up,

throw in anything else you want in--veggies, meats, whatever--in

whatever ratios you want, include some salt or whey, stuff it in a jar

and wait a few days, and the cabbage can be replaced with some other

veggie too, daikon, turnip, whatever.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

I believe that's exactly what pasteurization is supposed to do: harm/kill

bacteria. I thought the thermal limit of lactic-acid bacteria was around

110F. If so, 175F would certainly " harm " them.

******************************

The active misidentification of evil

is the worst kind of evil.

-MRN

_____

From: Adler [mailto:wapriceisright@...]

Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 11:30 AM

Subject: Eden Foods sauerkraut - Pasteurization doesn't harm bacteria?!

*

This is what an Eden Foods representative wrote about Eden pasteurized

kraut.

I welcome comments!

Eden Foods

800.248.0320

517.456.7424

Fax: 517.456.7025

www.edenfoods.com

Thank you for contacting Eden Foods and your interest in Eden

products.

Eden Sauerkraut is made by a family who handles the entire process

from field to packing, giving it homemade attention. Over seventy

years of experience in growing kraut cabbage and using traditional

methods of pickling goes into each jar.Special varieties of cabbage

are chose for their excellent kraut-making qualities. Cabbage is

hand-harvested at the peak of flavor. Temperatures of the fermenting

tanks are carefully controlled in a way similar to a fine winery.

Salt, pressure and time draw out water from the cabbage as it

ferments(cabbage is 97% water). A tangy flavor and distinctive texture

develop. Beneficial bacteria, in the form of lactic acid, a result of

the fermentation process, combined with the nutritious qualities of

cabbage, make sauerkraut an age-old health food. Very low in calories,

sauerkraut is a good source of fiber and Vitamin C.

The Eden sauerkraut is pasteurized at 175 degrees.

Beneficial bacteria, in the form of lactic acid, a result of the

fermentation process, is not harmed by the pasteurization process nor

does it harm the quality of the cabbage.

[Guest guest]

> Why do you specify Kosher salt? Why not celtic sea salt? Also, do

> you have a recipe for mixing up your own Herbes de Provence?

Here, I would say sea salt. Most of my readers at that site can't

afford it, so I ask them to AT LEAST use Kosher as opposed to table

salt. For instance, *I* can't afford sea salt right now.

Herbes de Provence is different depending on who mixes it, but what

I've seen is lavender, oregano, basil, fennel, rosemary.

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.wisforwomen.com

http://www.knitting911.net * http://www.tomformayor.org

[Guest guest]

@@@ Lynn:

> Here, I would say sea salt. Most of my readers at that site can't

> afford it, so I ask them to AT LEAST use Kosher as opposed to table

> salt. For instance, *I* can't afford sea salt right now.

@@@

Does anyone know how the supermarket kosher salt compares in quality

to the very economical sea salt from the Korean shops? I actually

know an artisanal cheesemaker making very pricey and amazing cheeses,

even some aged raw ones, but I recently noticed them pouring salt out

of a typical cheap Morton or whatever " kosher salt " box into their

feta, and I had to majorly suppress my cringing. <cringe>. I wasn't

socially comfortable saying " hey, why aren't you using Celtic sea salt

or whatever " , but I thought about a friendly " gee, you could save

money and have a better product with this other sea salt and I could

pick up a bag for you sometime " . The problem is I don't really know

the facts, so maybe it wouldn't be better! Happily every once in a

while I actually use my brain before my mouth (but not that often).

But <cringe>.

Also, it doesn't hurt to remind folks that you can use zero salt for

lf veggies if you use whey, which is dirt cheap to make, and if you're

lucky and skillful enough (controlling temperature, etc) for some

veggies like cabbage you can use zero salt and zero whey, just using

the endogenous bacteria from the ingredients as a starter culture. So

there are ways to save money and maybe even make a healthier (but

probably less delicious) dish.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

So kimchi is basically just crushed fresh vegetables fermented in an

anaerobic/sealed container?

Does it produce gas / make pressure inside the container?

I'm not much on salt. Anybody ever try to make it without salt?

Anyone ever try to make sauerkraut that way?

I wonder why they say not to use broccoli.

******************************

The active misidentification of evil

is the worst kind of evil.

-MRN

_____

From: Lynn Siprelle [mailto:lynn@...]

Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 3:23 PM

Subject: Re: Eden Foods sauerkraut - Pasteurization doesn't harm

bacteria?!

* > Could you post your recipe for kimchi?

Heidi is the undisputed kimchi queen here, but my favorite recipe is

here:

http://www.thenewhomemaker.com/node/view/8323

Lynn S.

------

Lynn Siprelle * web developer, writer, mama, fiber junky

http://www.siprelle.com * http://www.thenewhomemaker.com

http://www.democracyfororegon.com * http://www.wisforwomen.com

http://www.knitting911.net * http://www.tomformayor.org

[Guest guest]

>>>Also, do you have a recipe for mixing up your own Herbes de Provence?<<<

I found this if its any help:

http://www.recipecottage.com/dry-mixes/herbes-de-provence02.html

Herbs de Provence

1 teaspoon thyme

1 teaspoon summer savory

1/2 teaspoon lavender

1/4 teaspoon rosemary

1/2 teaspoon oregano or basil

1/4 teaspoon sage

Herbs de provence is best made with dried herbs as fresh herbs lose

their flavour if the cooking is longer than about 20 minutes. This

blend is excellent in soups, on potatoes, rice, pasta, fish, roasted

vegetables or bread. Mix with 1/4 lb butter for a real treat.

Cheers,

Tas'.

[Guest guest]

I just spotted the ready made mix in my supermarket in NZ, so seems

like it's a universally available mix, if that's easier.

Having said that - I just checked the bottle and it's a different

combo - thyme, marjoram, parsley, tarragon, celery seed & lavender.

Deb.

> >>>Also, do you have a recipe for mixing up your own Herbes de

Provence?<<<

>

>

> I found this if its any help:

>

> http://www.recipecottage.com/dry-mixes/herbes-de-provence02.html

>

> Herbs de Provence

>

> 1 teaspoon thyme

> 1 teaspoon summer savory

> 1/2 teaspoon lavender

> 1/4 teaspoon rosemary

> 1/2 teaspoon oregano or basil

> 1/4 teaspoon sage

>

> Herbs de provence is best made with dried herbs as fresh herbs lose

> their flavour if the cooking is longer than about 20 minutes. This

> blend is excellent in soups, on potatoes, rice, pasta, fish,

roasted

> vegetables or bread. Mix with 1/4 lb butter for a real treat.

>

>

> Cheers,

> Tas'.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>Also, the kimchi recipe in NT works and there are dozens out there

>only a google away. My recipe is: take some cabbage, chop it up,

>throw in anything else you want in--veggies, meats, whatever--in

>whatever ratios you want, include some salt or whey, stuff it in a jar

>and wait a few days, and the cabbage can be replaced with some other

>veggie too, daikon, turnip, whatever.

I second that recipe, Mike! I posted the PDF to give folks an idea

of the process, but really, just about anything works if there is

some salt, vinegar, kimchi juice, and/or whey. I do like it better

when there is lots of shrimp. Every Korean family makes it

a little different, and there are 700 or so different " types " .

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

I just want to insert here, because it often seems to be overlooked,

that Eden is an natural food movement brand that has exhibited high

regard for the source of the inputs of their products and for the

method of packaging and so on. Eden is a direct descendent of the

original macrobiotic whole food companies - the ones that first made

real whole foods available in communities throughout the US.

Companies like Bubbies are founded for the soul purpose of making

money. WHen you are founded to make money, one of the first things

you have to do is lower the cost of your inputs. You can do that by

finding cabbage that looks like cabbage but doesn't necessarily have

the nutritional content that cabbage is capable of having.

That said: I cannot explain why Eden would pastuerize this product. I

spoke with Sandor KATZ about this earlier. This product will have

lactic acid but no bacteria. The nutritional content of the kraut

will be diminished by the heating process. All that remains is some

fiber and the minerals. Even then, though, the minerals should be

substantially more significant than those in the commercial product.

Only to wish that we really had a way of testing that assertion.

BTW, Mike - One day I saw Alan Kay hitchhiking on a street corner in

Boston. The guy who was driving the car I was in wouldn't stop to

pick him up! And so I missed what I'm sure would have been the most

inspiring ride to the airport of my life!!

-Allan

[Guest guest]

> That said: I cannot explain why Eden would pastuerize this product. I

> spoke with Sandor KATZ about this earlier. This product will have

> lactic acid but no bacteria. The nutritional content of the kraut

> will be diminished by the heating process.

>

> -Allan

Well, Eden Foods is now a big name and kraut does not do well in the

mass market paradigm. In fact, I don't think you can buy bona fide

live kraut on the market, cmiiw. Miso is another story. Some of it

can be purchased fresh/unpasteurized.

http://www.southrivermiso.com/index.html

I began making my own sauerkraut this season and it is easy, fun and

quite good. And I can add the spices and flavors I like.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Sorry, but what does " cmiiw " mean?

Thanks,

Well, Eden Foods is now a big name and kraut does not do well in the

mass market paradigm. In fact, I don't think you can buy bona fide

live kraut on the market, cmiiw. Miso is another story. Some of it

can be purchased fresh/unpasteurized.

http://www.southrivermiso.com/index.html

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Stanley [mailto:j_alexander_stanley@...]

>

>

> >

> > What about Bubbies? Is it pasteurized also?

>

> Although Bubbies is found in the refrigerated section, it is,

> in fact, pasteurized. You can tell by the lid: it's sucked

> down under vacuum from the heat of pasteurization.

That's an invalid conclusion. The same thing happens when I take a jar of

kimchi fermented at room temperature, release the gas, and refrigerate it.

If you want to know, ask them.

Berg

[Guest guest]

@@@@

> Well, Eden Foods is now a big name and kraut does not do well in the

> mass market paradigm. In fact, I don't think you can buy bona fide

> live kraut on the market, cmiiw. Miso is another story. Some of it

> can be purchased fresh/unpasteurized.

> http://www.southrivermiso.com/index.html

>

> I began making my own sauerkraut this season and it is easy, fun and

> quite good. And I can add the spices and flavors I like.

>

> Deanna

@@@@

It's kind of crazy not to make this stuff one's self, but there is an

intriguing source of raw fermented veggies that someone posted to this

list last year:

http://www.diamondorganics.com/culturedveggies.html

They use CSS and some really intriguing ingredients, kale, dandelion,

different sea greens, etc.

Mike

SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

[Guest guest]

> Sorry, but what does " cmiiw " mean?

>

> Thanks,

>

Correct Me If I'm Wrong. Which Mike did by bringing up Diamond

Organics

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Here is a semi-authentic unpasteurized kraut. It's very tasty.

http://www.belandorganicfoods.com/kartheins.html