Guest guest Posted October 10, 2004 Report Share Posted October 10, 2004 (sorry for crossposting, to those on the chapter leader list) Two important things they left out: 1) What the plant is fertilized with directly affects oxalate content 2) The breed of the plant makes a big difference in the oxalate content I found a study, somewhere in the vast and ungodly abyss of the unsearchable Native Nutrition archives, that found that wild-breed mushrooms contained zero insoluble oxalates and a much lower proportion of soluble oxalates, whereas non-wild-breed mushrooms contained much higher amounts of total oxalates as well as a significant amount of insoluble oxalates. Another study posted in the same abyss found a direct correlation between the amount of nitrate fertilizer used and the oxalate content. It was not due to the nitrogen, because one group that used ammonium (another source of nitrogen) had a no-slope constant level of oxalates, while two groups, each using a different nitrate compound, both had linear relationships between the amount of nitrate used and oxalate content. One thing I'm glad they didn't mention is the myth that oxalates are neutralized by cooking. Everything I've seen indicates that heat does nothing to neutralize oxalates, but that boiling or steaming causes a partial loss of soluble oxalates in the cooking water. We've discussed fermentation and oxalates on the NN list before, and what we came up with was that fermentation by some species destroys oxalates and fermentation by other species *creates* oxalates! So I wouldn't rely on fermentation as a safe bet for oxalate neutralization. I have no idea what effect sprouting would have. Unless oxalate is a sprout inhibitor and there is an oxalase enzyme that breaks it down like there is a phytase, I doubt it would neutralize the oxalates... but I don't know. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 > recently someone was talking about this on either the chapterleaders or the > list, but i didn't see any good solid list of what > conatins oxalic acid. here's a good conscise article. i would still like to > know if oxalic acid is neutralized by fermentation/sprouting/etc... > > -katja Unfortunately I've still never come across any good data on this recurring topic other than the list on the USDA site that I've posted many times: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/Other/oxalic.html I have no idea how accurate this data is, but it's the best I've found, and makes me feel really good about eating three of my favorite foods: kale, turnip greens, and coriander leaves. I totally agree with Chris' remarks about oxalates, noting that the only clear example I've found reference to of fermentation reducing oxalates was in some kind of fermented fish paste, and they seem to attribute the effect to fungi more than bacteria. I found the abstract in my personal files--see below. My impression has been that for all practical purposes there's not much we can do about oxalates besides avoiding excesses of foods high in them. It's probably not a big deal, because the plant foods high in them are mostly super-concentrated foods best used in small quantities for flavor, phytochemical variety, medicine, etc. The interesting case is seeds like unhulled (black) sesame, various legumes, amaranth, etc, which are foods people sometime rely on in large quantities, so it's a very solid argument against making these foods staples, and eating animal foods instead. (But note that hulled--brown or white--sesame seeds are not a problem.) I don't know or forgot the answer about sprouting. I'm very curious too. No time to look into it now, so it goes on " the list " . Mike SE Pennsylvania The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay ------------------------------------------------------------------- Record 92 of 147 in FSTA Retrospective 1969-1989 AN: 89-09-R0028 TI: Changes in the total oxalate content in the fermentation of fish paste hentak. AU: Vishwanath-W; Sarojnalini-C PY: 1989 SO: Journal-of-Food-Science; 54 (3) 754-755, 8 ref. AB: [Fresh petioles of Alocasia macrorrhiza are used in preparation of hentak, a fermented fish paste. The plant is unsuitable for human consumption, as it contains calcium oxalate crystals, which cause irritation, but which seem to be destroyed on fermentation.] Total oxalate content of sliced petioles of A. macrorrhiza was reduced by 41.3% on incubation for 7 days at room temp. (18-23 degree C). When incubated after mixing with an equal wt. of powdered sundried fish (Esomus danricus), for preparation of hentak, oxalate level was reduced by 84.4%. This loss was greatly inhibited by antibiotics. Some specific microorganisms [notably fungi] might be important in oxalate destruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 >recently someone was talking about this on either the chapterleaders or the > list, but i didn't see any good solid list of what >conatins oxalic acid. here's a good conscise article. i would still like to >know if oxalic acid is neutralized by fermentation/sprouting/etc... > >-katja The most recent stuff I've read indicates that humans can't digest oxalic acid, but most people have bacteria in their guts that CAN digest it. Antibiotic therapy wipes out those bacteria and then causes kidney stones. So ... fermentation could digest the oxalic acid if the ferment has the correct bacteria. Cooking doesn't neutralize it though. I have made rhubarb wine, and it seems to me (from tasting!) that the wine doesn't have the oxalic acid content of raw rhubarb. But that is not based on any science whatsoever. > Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 " lamb's-quarter, buckwheat, star fruit, black pepper, purslane, poppy seeds, rhubarb, tea, spinach, plantains, cocoa and chocolate, ginger, almonds, cashews, garden sorrel, mustard greens, bell peppers, sweet potatoes, soybeans, tomatillos, beets and beet greens, oats, pumpkin, cabbage, green beans, mango, eggplant, tomatoes, lentils, and parsnips. " I don't know about all that....that's alot of good foods....I eat about ALL of it.....If we remove all of that what are we supposed to eat?....Isn't that going a little overboard? Don't the benefits outweigh any negatives? You know....we cut out all of the bad, processed, sugared, preserved, artificial foods....and we are left with veggies that are on that list....and THEN....we shouldn't eat those either.....are we sure about all this " oxalic acid stuff " , we're going to narrow our food choices down to just water and sprouts before we know it....oh wait....there's bad things in sprouts too!.......WHAT do we eat?..... ...there's probably something " bad " in EVERYTHING......aren't combinations of foods helpful in our consumptions of these " suspect " foods....like when we eat spinach....depends what else we're eating along with it, and eating it cooked, or with plenty of raw butter...can we really say that these foods should be " avoided " ? That stinks.... :-( -- Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 All that stuff sounds way too overboard....try to help a fellow human being on their diet....explain to them that they should stay away from all the processed junk, eat more raw veggies and fruits, local pastured meats....blah,blah,blah....and then try to tell them that they shouldn't eat " x " because of " oxalic acid " or....don't eat that good veggie...it's got " oxalic " too....that said human being would promptly " give up " ....I feel we're making it WAY too difficult....I was talking to a guy the other day who was a little older than me....and he was sick with a bad cold....and he was talking how he needed to lose weight...and I started to tell him.....(he's gotten to know me and can SEE that I'm not overweight and am very healthy and don't ever get sick...) that I changed my diet, and I feel great ...he asked me " what do you mean you changed your diet? " .....I started to explain my diet to him....and it hit me how " complicated " it sounds to most people....and it seems so simple to me....getting connected to real foods is probably the biggest challenge....but the more I explained to him...the more I didn't want to go any further into it...it has become SO unusual to eat " good " foods....and if I had to explain.... " don't eat spinach though...and don't eat peppers though, and don't have a beet though.....I mean, REALLY??? That sounds retarded....God put these foods on the earth for us to nourish ourselves...and people are going to get THIS technical about everything???? Don't you think the good Lord knew what he was doing....and gave us these good foods for our good health? We're going to nit-pick so much that we are going to drive folks away from eating right....to me...the reason I want more people to " get on board " is that we will have a larger " voice " and be able to possibly DEMAND better foods to be available...it is SO HARD to eat right anymore. I CANNOT go out ANYWHERE and get the kind of foods that I like to feed my body with....ie. whole foods....they aren't in existence anywhere in my home town...except in MY kitchen....I'm pretty much down to healthy meats and veggies...and now..... " oxalics " ?........I don't know what to think about all this sometimes..... -- Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 Yes, I saw an article that reported about a study they were doing to see if re-introducing some microorganism (O. _______) would help people who are prone to develop kidney stones. It was fairly obscure, and I happened upon it accidentally. It was really interesting to note that some of our naturally- occurring gut flora could take care of the oxalates for us. If they're present. > > >recently someone was talking about this on either the chapterleaders or the > > list, but i didn't see any good solid list of what > >conatins oxalic acid. here's a good conscise article. i would still like to > >know if oxalic acid is neutralized by fermentation/sprouting/etc... > > > >-katja > > The most recent stuff I've read indicates that humans can't digest > oxalic acid, but most people have bacteria in their guts that CAN > digest it. Antibiotic therapy wipes out those bacteria and then > causes kidney stones. So ... fermentation could digest the > oxalic acid if the ferment has the correct bacteria. Cooking doesn't neutralize > it though. > > I have made rhubarb wine, and it seems to me (from tasting!) that > the wine doesn't have the oxalic acid content of raw > rhubarb. But that is not based on any science whatsoever. > > > > > Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 > Re: oxalates/oxalic acid > > > > " lamb's-quarter, >buckwheat, star fruit, black pepper, purslane, poppy seeds, rhubarb, tea, >spinach, plantains, cocoa and chocolate, ginger, almonds, cashews, garden >sorrel, mustard greens, bell peppers, sweet potatoes, soybeans, >tomatillos, >beets and beet greens, oats, pumpkin, cabbage, green beans, mango, >eggplant, tomatoes, lentils, and parsnips. " > > >I don't know about all that....that's alot of good foods....I eat >about ALL >of it.....If we remove all of that what are we supposed to >eat?....Isn't that >going a little overboard? Don't the benefits outweigh any negatives? You >know....we cut out all of the bad, processed, sugared, preserved, >artificial >foods....and we are left with veggies that are on that >list....and THEN....we >shouldn't eat those either.....are we sure about all this " oxalic >acid stuff " , >we're going to narrow our food choices down to just water and >sprouts before >we know it....oh wait....there's bad things in sprouts >too!.......WHAT do we >eat? Animals :-) Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine http://www.westonaprice.org ---------------------------- " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -- Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher. The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics <http://www.thincs.org> ---------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 > Re: oxalates/oxalic acid > > > >All that stuff sounds way too overboard....try to help a fellow >human being >on their diet....explain to them that they should stay away from all the >processed junk, eat more raw veggies and fruits, local pastured >meats....blah,blah,blah....and then try to tell them that they >shouldn't eat " x " because of > " oxalic acid " or....don't eat that good veggie...it's got " oxalic " > too....that >said human being would promptly " give up " ....I feel we're making >it WAY too >difficult....<snip> .....I'm >pretty much >down to healthy meats and veggies...and >now..... " oxalics " ?........I don't know >what to think about all this sometimes..... Steve, I didn't see anyone say to cut high oxalate foods out of the diet, but rather to consume them in moderation. A few things are worth noting. Traditional cultures typically *fermented* most of their problematic foods. Modern Americans tend to eat foods that are not prepared the way our ancestors did for millenia and thus we tend to CREATE problems for ourselves by not doing so. It is very *basic* and not really complicated at all. Secondly, I believe there is some evidence that plants grown in high fertility soil do not have as much (or any oxalates) compared to those grown in low fertility soil. I am not absolutely certain about this, but I believe that plants growing in nutrient- and bacteria/fungi-rich soils tend to have lower anti-nutrient contents in general. WE human beings have destroyed the nutrient-density of our soils as well as the soil/food web - GOD didn't do this - we did. So it's quite possible that the oxalate content of our foods is reflective of: a) our not preparing food properly as our ancestors did for millenia our decimation of soil, and subsequently, plant quality Had we not changed these things for the worse in modern times, perhaps food selection and preparation would be far simpler. Suze Fisher Lapdog Design, Inc. Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine http://www.westonaprice.org ---------------------------- " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " -- Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher. The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics <http://www.thincs.org> ---------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 At 08:51 AM 10/11/2004, you wrote: > " lamb's-quarter, >buckwheat, star fruit, black pepper, purslane, poppy seeds, rhubarb, tea, >spinach, plantains, cocoa and chocolate, ginger, almonds, cashews, garden >sorrel, mustard greens, bell peppers, sweet potatoes, soybeans, tomatillos, >beets and beet greens, oats, pumpkin, cabbage, green beans, mango, >eggplant, tomatoes, lentils, and parsnips. " > > >I don't know about all that....that's alot of good foods....I eat about ALL >of it.....If we remove all of that what are we supposed to eat?.... I can't say for anyone else, but I just don't worry about oxalates. Statistically, people who eat a lot of vegies are healthier than people who don't, oxalates and all! I think the bacteria that " eat " the oxalates are pretty common (the article said they get in most people's guts when they are babies) and I eat a ton of probiotic foods. The folks who got kidney stones from oxalates seem to be the ones that were on antibiotics, so the moral would be: don't eat antibiotics, or if you do, make sure your digestive tract gets repopulated quickly. Anyway, one of my favorite foods is rhubarb ... fresh stalks are really good, and they are loaded with oxalates. As for getting overloaded with information: this list does have a lot of curious, creative, scientifically minded people who talk about a lot of diverse stuff, in depth. But that doesn't mean everyone has to be so incredibly careful about every bite they eat. There is NO one perfect diet for every person (though the Paleo stance seems to be looking better and better). The real point is ... what feels good to YOU when you eat it? What makes you healthy? Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 > I didn't see anyone say to cut high oxalate foods out of the diet, but > rather to consume them in moderation. A few things are worth noting. > Traditional cultures typically *fermented* most of their problematic foods. > Modern Americans tend to eat foods that are not prepared the way our > ancestors did for millenia and thus we tend to CREATE problems for ourselves > by not doing so. It is very *basic* and not really complicated at all. I'm fairly new to this line of dietary research, so bear with me for a moment. This argument seems to be the standard response to questions about plant foods and health, but I have yet to see anyone offer sources showing that fermentation was so ubiquitous over evolutionary timescales (Which isn't to say you're required to footnote your posts! . Price certainly doesn't mention it in NAPD, but his details on food preparation are sketchy anyway. Are there any good books/otherwise written on this subject? I'd guess it's nearly impossible to make a strong argument either way with regard to cultures existing hundreds of thousands of years ago, but maybe modern primitive studies could be a close approximation. Was fermentation a natural side-effect of food storage? Or vice versa? You see a lot about drying (fish, figh eggs, seaweed, berries, etc) and freezing, but not so much on fermenting. Aside from Price's work on primitive nutrition, I know Vilhjamur Stefansson wrote about food in Eskimo groups around the turn of the century... Not sure what he has to say about fermentation in that culture (haven't read it yet...). There must be tons of other work out there on Maori, Aborigine, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 At 01:50 PM 10/11/2004, you wrote: >I can't say for anyone else, but I just don't worry about oxalates. >Statistically, people who >eat a lot of vegies are healthier than people who don't, oxalates and all! >I think >the bacteria that " eat " the oxalates are pretty common (the article said >they get >in most people's guts when they are babies) and I eat a ton of probiotic >foods. >The folks who got kidney stones from oxalates seem to be the ones that >were on antibiotics, so the moral would be: don't eat antibiotics, or if >you do, >make sure your digestive tract gets repopulated quickly. ok, this is how i was feeling, but i didn't know if i was being foolishly cavalier. also, here i am reccomending people use ground almonds for everything under the sun... however, i agree. i eat something fermented with every meal, so i think i'm going to not worry about it. -katja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 >Are there any good >books/otherwise written on this subject? I'd guess it's nearly >impossible to make a strong argument either way with regard to >cultures existing hundreds of thousands of years ago, but maybe modern >primitive studies could be a close approximation. Was fermentation a >natural side-effect of food storage? Or vice versa? You see a lot >about drying (fish, figh eggs, seaweed, berries, etc) and freezing, >but not so much on fermenting. Actually there are some good books and studies that have been done on it, and some have been linked to on this list. Most cultures fermented or still do ... the practice didn't go away until the refrigerator was invented and we all started living off packaged foods. It is interesting that in history books food is usually ignored, especially since food has been one of the driving forces of history. ( " Guns, germs, and steel " is the classic on that! Also read the battle histories ... for Ceasar, feeding the troops was one of his main concerns, ditto for Napoleon, who pioneered canned food). Your comment " Was fermentation a natural side-effect of food storage " is really right on the money ... most things ferment all by themselves. We had some interesting writups here awhile back about African cultures who ferment caterpillars ... they just collect them and sit them in a jar until they die and ferment themselves. They do the same with cow urine. The Romans collected fish guts in a jar and let them sit out in the sun to make fish sauce. I have a book of collected family recipes from French gardeners about their food storage, and while they did do drying and burying and other stuff, there was a lot of lacto-fermentation in there too. There really is a fair bit of info about food processing thousands of years ago ... the Romans and Egyptians kept pretty good records, for instance. And the Koreans have records of how kimchi has evolved ... However, there are good documents about much fermenting has been done worldwide ... here is one: http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e10.htm I also have a PDF " Fermentation as a method of food processing " by Sahlin that has a lot about the chemistry involved and a couple of others where I don't have the website link anymore. But there IS a lot of info out there, if you want to research it. Heidi Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 Steve, I feel your frustration, man. You have every reason to rant. OTOH, never give up the search for better nutrition/diet/food. God didn't do a very good job of giving it to us freely. Nature is nothing but an arms race, and every organism has some sort of defense against predation, many of them chemical in nature. Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's not unhealthy; Nature produces plenty of its own toxins for us to discover the hard way. I think a better attitude is to keep on keeping on. Let's look more into which type(s) of fermentation might eliminate oxalics. Time to hit the Google. There are legends of an ancient perfect/sacred food. There are rumors that some still know it; that's it's up to us to re-discover it. Might as well enjoy the search; after all, it is exciting and good tasting. And do we really have a choice? I just read the other day something about beneficial prions.hmmm. SCIENCE!! ****************************** The active misidentification of evil is the worst kind of evil. -MRN _____ From: phishin340@... [mailto:phishin340@...] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: Re: oxalates/oxalic acid * All that stuff sounds way too overboard....try to help a fellow human being on their diet....explain to them that they should stay away from all the processed junk, eat more raw veggies and fruits, local pastured meats....blah,blah,blah....and then try to tell them that they shouldn't eat " x " because of " oxalic acid " or....don't eat that good veggie...it's got " oxalic " too....that said human being would promptly " give up " ....I feel we're making it WAY too difficult....I was talking to a guy the other day who was a little older than me....and he was sick with a bad cold....and he was talking how he needed to lose weight...and I started to tell him.....(he's gotten to know me and can SEE that I'm not overweight and am very healthy and don't ever get sick...) that I changed my diet, and I feel great ...he asked me " what do you mean you changed your diet? " .....I started to explain my diet to him....and it hit me how " complicated " it sounds to most people....and it seems so simple to me....getting connected to real foods is probably the biggest challenge....but the more I explained to him...the more I didn't want to go any further into it...it has become SO unusual to eat " good " foods....and if I had to explain.... " don't eat spinach though...and don't eat peppers though, and don't have a beet though.....I mean, REALLY??? That sounds retarded....God put these foods on the earth for us to nourish ourselves...and people are going to get THIS technical about everything???? Don't you think the good Lord knew what he was doing....and gave us these good foods for our good health? We're going to nit-pick so much that we are going to drive folks away from eating right....to me...the reason I want more people to " get on board " is that we will have a larger " voice " and be able to possibly DEMAND better foods to be available...it is SO HARD to eat right anymore. I CANNOT go out ANYWHERE and get the kind of foods that I like to feed my body with....ie. whole foods....they aren't in existence anywhere in my home town...except in MY kitchen....I'm pretty much down to healthy meats and veggies...and now..... " oxalics " ?........I don't know what to think about all this sometimes..... -- Steve .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 That's been my feeling too - that unless a person has a speciifc need to reduce oxalates for a time, not to worry about it too much. An interesting side note - I wa doing some research, comparing US sweet potatoes and yams to NZ kumera and yams, and dsicovered that what's called a yam in NZ & Australia is a completely different family to US yams & sweet potaoes & NZ kumera (which are all one family) and true yams. They're called oca and are from the Andes. I read that they are high in oxalates and the traditional way of reducing oxalates was to leave them out in the sun for several days before eating either raw or cooked. deb Re: oxalates/oxalic acid At 01:50 PM 10/11/2004, you wrote: >I can't say for anyone else, but I just don't worry about oxalates. >Statistically, people who >eat a lot of vegies are healthier than people who don't, oxalates and all! >I think >the bacteria that " eat " the oxalates are pretty common (the article said >they get >in most people's guts when they are babies) and I eat a ton of probiotic >foods. >The folks who got kidney stones from oxalates seem to be the ones that >were on antibiotics, so the moral would be: don't eat antibiotics, or if >you do, >make sure your digestive tract gets repopulated quickly. ok, this is how i was feeling, but i didn't know if i was being foolishly cavalier. also, here i am reccomending people use ground almonds for everything under the sun... however, i agree. i eat something fermented with every meal, so i think i'm going to not worry about it. -katja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 >>>An interesting side note - I wa doing some research, comparing US sweet potatoes and yams to NZ kumera and yams, and dsicovered that what's called a yam in NZ & Australia is a completely different family to US yams & sweet potaoes & NZ kumera (which are all one family) and true yams. They're called oca and are from the Andes. I read that they are high in oxalates and the traditional way of reducing oxalates was to leave them out in the sun for several days before eating either raw or cooked. deb<<< Ah, so that's what they are. There was a discussion on another list about yams, and I couldn't for the life of me find out what the ones sold as yams here (Australia) really are. So they're ocas: http://www.ipgri.cgiar.org/publications/pubfile.asp?ID_PUB=143 Thanks, Tas'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 " .to leave them out in the sun for several days. " So technically would that be drying, sprouting, or fermenting? Don't most potatoes sprout in the sun? ****************************** The active misidentification of evil is the worst kind of evil. -MRN _____ From: Deb & Ian [mailto:deb@...] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 3:48 PM Subject: RE: oxalates/oxalic acid That's been my feeling too - that unless a person has a speciifc need to reduce oxalates for a time, not to worry about it too much. An interesting side note - I wa doing some research, comparing US sweet potatoes and yams to NZ kumera and yams, and dsicovered that what's called a yam in NZ & Australia is a completely different family to US yams & sweet potaoes & NZ kumera (which are all one family) and true yams. They're called oca and are from the Andes. I read that they are high in oxalates and the traditional way of reducing oxalates was to leave them out in the sun for several days before eating either raw or cooked. deb Re: oxalates/oxalic acid At 01:50 PM 10/11/2004, you wrote: >I can't say for anyone else, but I just don't worry about oxalates. >Statistically, people who >eat a lot of vegies are healthier than people who don't, oxalates and all! >I think >the bacteria that " eat " the oxalates are pretty common (the article said >they get >in most people's guts when they are babies) and I eat a ton of probiotic >foods. >The folks who got kidney stones from oxalates seem to be the ones that >were on antibiotics, so the moral would be: don't eat antibiotics, or if >you do, >make sure your digestive tract gets repopulated quickly. ok, this is how i was feeling, but i didn't know if i was being foolishly cavalier. also, here i am reccomending people use ground almonds for everything under the sun... however, i agree. i eat something fermented with every meal, so i think i'm going to not worry about it. -katja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 @@@ I read that they are high in oxalates and the traditional way of reducing oxalates was to leave them out in the sun for several days before eating either raw or cooked. deb @@@ @@@ On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:30:09 -0500, mark robert <colowe@...> wrote: > " .to leave them out in the sun for > several days. " > > So technically would that be drying, sprouting, or fermenting? Don't most > potatoes sprout in the sun? @@@@ That would be drying. Yeah, I totally forgot about the drying thing and oxalates! I know I've got something somewhere about Native Americans drying skunk cabbage (which is high enough in oxalates to be considered flat out poisonous in its fresh state) for several *months* and then eating it. I promise to dig something up about this when I have time--it's probably either in Steve Brill's book or on the wild edibles list... This is the best oxalate thread we've ever thread--thanks for the great posts Suze, et al! I tend to be convinced by Chris' reasoning about the heat vs leaching thing, but it's worth pursuing further... Maybe there's a connection between the drying thing and the heat thing? Mike SE Pennsylvania The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 > " lamb's-quarter, > buckwheat, star fruit, black pepper, purslane, poppy seeds, rhubarb, tea, > spinach, plantains, cocoa and chocolate, ginger, almonds, cashews, garden > sorrel, mustard greens, bell peppers, sweet potatoes, soybeans, tomatillos, > beets and beet greens, oats, pumpkin, cabbage, green beans, mango, > eggplant, tomatoes, lentils, and parsnips. " > > > I don't know about all that....that's alot of good foods....I eat about ALL > of it.....If we remove all of that what are we supposed to eat?....Isn't that > going a little overboard? Don't the benefits outweigh any negatives? You > know....we cut out all of the bad, processed, sugared, preserved, artificial > foods....and we are left with veggies that are on that list....and THEN....we > shouldn't eat those either.....are we sure about all this " oxalic acid stuff " , > we're going to narrow our food choices down to just water and sprouts before > we know it....oh wait....there's bad things in sprouts too!.......WHAT do we > eat?..... ...there's probably something " bad " in EVERYTHING......aren't > combinations of foods helpful in our consumptions of these " suspect " > foods....like when we eat spinach....depends what else we're eating along with it, and > eating it cooked, or with plenty of raw butter...can we really say that these > foods should be " avoided " ? That stinks.... :-( > -- > Steve > Just so you know, Steve, I agree with you completely. I was finding myself slowly but surely weeding out all of the so-called " bad " foods, but I've checked myself for the moment because I want to be able to eat something. I love the discussions on this board and I've learned a lot, but I try to put some of the information out of my mind because I can't obsess over every last food I put in my mouth, which is what happens when I have too much information (I think waaaaaaay too much about things). We just need to experiment a bit and see what foods work best for us. If you feel great then you must be doing something right. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 In a message dated 10/12/2004 4:40:26 AM Central Daylight Time, dawnciano@... writes: " (I think waaaaaaay too much about things). " I'm with you on this....sometimes I wonder why I have this mind that wants to rationalize everything....while everyone else goes along in their ignorant bliss! :-) This is something that I am trying to deal with....I have learned SO much, that it is too hard to ignore it and just eat anything...I find myself wondering how everybody else is even alive with the way they feed themslves....It goes to show you how resilient the human body is....but I gotta believe that there is a stopping point....I'm pretty confident that most people are just " wearing themselves out " by eating and drinking all the junk....and will hit that proverbial wall....I think that the next ten years is going to be very interesting watching what everybody's health is like after they keep up these dietary habits. Many of my friends and acquaintances are getting older( 40s-50s...) and they haven't changed their diet at all....still downing tons of soda, fried foods, cakes and cookies, and the general junk that most americans eat....we really don't have any good nutritious foods readily available in most towns across the U.S. I have to earnestly search it out, just to have some real " nutritional " food...and if you eat out....FORGET IT.....We got this new resaurant in town....and people have been saying that it is a pretty healthy place to eat...it's called the " flat top grill " and it's a stir fry resaurant. Well, I went there, and it was pretty good....but then I (of course...) start looking at everything...and thought, gee, all those veggies are NOT organic...who knows WHAT was on them....and did they wash them properly?.....and then all the sauces....you KNOW that they are filled with high-fructose....and other " not-so-goodies " ....then the meat...sitting out...NOT organic or free- ranged, marinated in some " not-so-good " stuff....then the breads.....NO bottled water.....and I decided that I wouldn't eat there anymore....there is NOWHERE to really eat out healthy around here....so when everybody goes to " eat out " with everyone....they are slowly poisoning themselves with all of the chemicals and unhealthy ingredients in our food supply.....no wonder everybody is sick or on drugs....I wonder why there isn't any resaurants that will serve healthy food prepared in a healthy fashion? There needs to be a cooking school for " traditional food preparation " (or WAP principles...) I would like to open up a cafe that just served " traditional " foods, prepared in a " traditional " way....I couldn't imagine being able to get up on a Sat. morning and go out to eat with my mother, and go to a restaurant and have a bowl of " five grain porridge " , and a bowl of organic strawberries, or a local organic free-range egg omelet, some sprouted grain toast with raw honey and cinnamon.....and a glass of raw milk (OK, now I'm really dreaming....), or at least a glass of CLEAN, healthy water,.... not tap water....why can't there be restaurants like THATis there no demand?....am I the only one ?....there are TONS of them (pretty much all of them....) that AREN'T like that...no wonder nobody wants to eat right....it is way too much effort....it shouldn't be like that.....I've been thinking of names for my cafe....maybe someday........but people have to be educated as to WHY they should be searching out real food....I plan on keeping to my plan(...and trying to keep my mouth shut...) and being an example for this way of eating!....maybe others will eventually follow! -- -- Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2004 Report Share Posted October 12, 2004 My husband and I were just discussing this last night ! With a family birthday coming up, we've discussed going out to eat, and I told him, forget it. The last time we did that, (supposedly to a " healthy " place) I was sick all afternoon and had a headache for 2 days. I don't know what additives they used, but they got to us. If a restaraunt opened here with truly healthy, traditional foods, I might think I had died and gone to heaven. Rebekah .We got this new resaurant in town....and people have been saying that it is a pretty healthy place to eat...it's called the " flat top grill " and it's a stir fry resaurant. Well, I went there, and it was pretty good....but then I (of course...) start looking at everything...and thought, gee, all those veggies are NOT organic...who knows WHAT was on them....and did they wash them properly?.....and then all the sauces....you KNOW that they are filled with high-fructose....and other " not-so-goodies " ....then the meat...sitting out...NOT organic or free- ranged, marinated in some " not-so-good " stuff....then the breads.....NO bottled water.....and I decided that I wouldn't eat there anymore....there is NOWHERE to really eat out healthy around here....so when everybody goes to " eat out " with everyone....they are slowly poisoning themselves with all of the chemicals and unhealthy ingredients in our food supply.....no wonder everybody is sick or on drugs....I wonder why there isn't any resaurants that will serve healthy food prepared in a healthy fashion? There needs to be a cooking school for " traditional food preparation " (or WAP principles...) I would like to open up a cafe that just served " traditional " foods, prepared in a " traditional " way....I couldn't imagine being able to get up on a Sat. morning and go out to eat with my mother, and go to a restaurant and have a bowl of " five grain porridge " , and a bowl of organic strawberries, or a local organic free-range egg omelet, some sprouted grain toast with raw honey and cinnamon.....and a glass of raw milk (OK, now I'm really dreaming....), or at least a glass of CLEAN, healthy water,.... not tap water....why can't there be restaurants like THATis there no demand?....am I the only one ?....there are TONS of them (pretty much all of them....) that AREN'T like that...no wonder nobody wants to eat right....it is way too much effort....it shouldn't be like that.....I've been thinking of names for my cafe....maybe someday........but people have to be educated as to WHY they should be searching out real food....I plan on keeping to my plan(...and trying to keep my mouth shut...) and being an example for this way of eating!....maybe others will eventually follow! -- -- Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 >we really don't have any good nutritious foods readily available in most > towns across the U.S. I have to earnestly search it out, just to have some > real " nutritional " food...and if you eat out....FORGET IT... >no wonder nobody wants to > eat right....it is way too much effort....it shouldn't be like that.... You're so right, Steve - it shouldn't be like this! The only people who eat a healthy diet are those like us who are really interested in food and health, and make a study of it. But don't people with other interests have a right to be healthy too? Imagine a world where food makers and restaurants served healthful food by default, and you'd have to go out of your way to get junk. I hope I can eat at your cafe someday ... Aven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 > > >we really don't have any good nutritious foods readily available in most > > towns across the U.S. I have to earnestly search it out, just to have some > > real " nutritional " food...and if you eat out....FORGET IT... > >no wonder nobody wants to > > eat right....it is way too much effort....it shouldn't be like that.... > > You're so right, Steve - it shouldn't be like this! The only > people who eat a healthy diet are those like us who are > really interested in food and health, and make a study of > it. But don't people with other interests have a right to be > healthy too? Imagine a world where food makers and > restaurants served healthful food by default, and you'd > have to go out of your way to get junk. I hope I can eat > at your cafe someday ... > Aven or a world where your cultural conditioning is actually useful and important! to learn how to catch, grow, prepare and eat as a child intimately connected with your world, rather than, well, this... talk about life managing to exist in harsh and unforgiving environments... what desert could be worse than anytown USA? at least in a desert you know damn well where you stand! ok, i'm done. eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 >>>You're so right, Steve - it shouldn't be like this! The only people who eat a healthy diet are those like us who are really interested in food and health, and make a study of it.<<< And many of us have arrived at that point by being so fed-up with how unhealthy we have become by following the contemporary diet :-( Cheers, Tas'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 This just brought to mind - my daughter LOVES to pick and eat edible weeds, wild strawberries, etc. The taste doesn't seem to matter. Do kids just have some instinct that this is the right way? Aven > or a world where your cultural conditioning is actually useful and > important! to learn how to catch, grow, prepare and eat as a child > intimately connected with your world, rather than, well, this... > > talk about life managing to exist in harsh and unforgiving > environments... what desert could be worse than anytown USA? at least > in a desert you know damn well where you stand! > > ok, i'm done. > eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 At 01:12 PM 10/13/2004, you wrote: >As I was travelling to the other side of the state to do my " cow hunt " >I talked to a number of folks. Now mind you, on THIS side of Washington >we have a lot of liberal-freakish-pierced-I'll-try-anything types, but the >folks on the other side are a lot more down to earth types. Anyway, >everyone I talked to was into grass-fed beef and liked my ideas on >feeding cow guts to chickens etc, which is a big change from the usual >stuff I've heard in the farming community. In the past it was all " use this >nice packaged food and the chickens will grow fast " . well now wait a sec, heidi. *i'm* liberal-freakish-pierced-i'll-try-anything - that's how i found NT! and my very straight-laced looking butcher nearly fell off his chair when i told him i wanted all those tongues, livers, etc that he threw away to feed to my cat. i persisted, and he gave them to me, laughing the whole time. the next week i went in and there were little 1-lb containers in the freezer, labeled and everything. " cat food " . i commented and he said that he'd taken it home to his cat to see if i was insane, and it turned out his cat liked it! (duh!) so yay for him! course, more yay for him if he'd continue not to charge me for it, given it was my idea! -katja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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