Guest guest Posted December 5, 2006 Report Share Posted December 5, 2006 If they are not certified the things that come to mind to me are - Are their fields treated with synthetic pesticides, herbicides, or fertilizers? Is their hay from certified organic fields or have they been sprayed with synthetic pesticides, herbicides or fertilizers? Are any grains fed organically grown or if not were they grown in fields with no synthetic pesticieds, herbicides or fertilizers? What do they use for parasite control? Are the animals confined or allowed to get a significant amount of their diet from quality pasture in season? What are they using for mineral supplementation? If they didnt use any synthtics to grow the feedstuffs when was the last time the fields had any synthetics on them? Do the animals receive any antibiotics, hormones or other meds and if so under what circumstances? There is probably more to ask but that is what is coming to mind right before I have to pop out and milk. If you have questions after you get your answers run it by the list. Some of the thing folks use are not too bad and some stuff is down right nasty. Aliza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 If they follow organic standards and use organic feed, they do not have to be certified if they sell less than $6,000 a year in organic meats & dairy. The pesticides, herbices & fertilizer questions ARE legitimate. However, asking if they are in confinement or pasture raised is NOT an organic standard. Don't get me wrong -- I believe that all rumants need to be out on pasture and have a mostly grass-fed diet. I'm only pointing out that even Certified Organic Milk can still come from grain-pumped cows that never see the light of day and never get to eat a single blade of grass!!! Also, it is 100% true that they cannot use antibiotics and market that cow as organic. While they are required to treat a sick cow with antibiotics if necessary for the cows health, they must either then sell the cow or have two milking herds. Not all hormones are banned. Only growth stimulant type hormones are banned. Hormones that create a cow to cycle on a particular day are (last I checked) still allowed. As you can see, there is a difference in what people WANT organic to mean and what the USDA has defined it as. If you want to make sure that the cows are on pasture, have minimal grain and the farmer cannot use heat cycling drugs - you need a Certified Naturally Grown or Certified Humanely Raised farm. Both of those START with th USDA's Organic standards and then add to them. aliza wrote: > > If they are not certified the things that come to mind to me are - > Are their fields treated with synthetic pesticides, herbicides, or > fertilizers? Is their hay from certified organic fields or have they > been sprayed with synthetic pesticides, herbicides or fertilizers? > Are any grains fed organically grown or if not were they grown in > fields with no synthetic pesticieds, herbicides or fertilizers? What > do they use for parasite control? Are the animals confined or > allowed to get a significant amount of their diet from quality > pasture in season? What are they using for mineral supplementation? > If they didnt use any synthtics to grow the feedstuffs when was the > last time the fields had any synthetics on them? Do the animals > receive any antibiotics, hormones or other meds and if so under what > circumstances? > > There is probably more to ask but that is what is coming to mind > right before I have to pop out and milk. > > If you have questions after you get your answers run it by the list. > Some of the thing folks use are not too bad and some stuff is down > right nasty. > > Aliza > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 That's why I simply say that my focus is on the humane treatment of the animals and not some " label " . " R. Underhill " wrote: > > I agree with this. I think if you deny an animal conventional medicine when it needs it because of the whole " Organic " issue, it's not right. My biggest thing is hormones and the way an animal is treated. I won't support factory farming. I want the animals to be allowed to roam MUCH of the time and be treated with respect and care. > > It's hard to find what we look for as consumers in all cases, thus all the better the reason to grow our own. Then we know what we are consuming. I'm probably bigger on animal rights then anything else. > > a > Re: Re:Organic? > > > This is why I call our operation natural and holistic rather than > organic. My goats get room to excersise and fresh air and sunshine > outside...which I want them to have. But they don't have to have a > natural life in order to be " organic. " > > *~*~* Jo & Pete *~*~* > @ > " Laudo Deum " Farm > kinderfolk_n_liddlebuds@... > > Raising quality Kinder and Nigerian Dwarf goats > for small acreage farmers, homesteaders and > families with young children. > (And producing natural soaps for humans and animals.) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2006 Report Share Posted December 6, 2006 Here, Here !!!!!!!! a Re: Re:Organic?> > > This is why I call our operation natural and holistic rather than > organic. My goats get room to excersise and fresh air and sunshine > outside...which I want them to have. But they don't have to have a > natural life in order to be "organic."> > *~*~* Jo & Pete *~*~*> @> "Laudo Deum" Farm> kinderfolk_n_liddlebuds@...> > Raising quality Kinder and Nigerian Dwarf goats> for small acreage farmers, homesteaders and> families with young children.> (And producing natural soaps for humans and animals.)> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 You can not deny the animal treatment just to save your organic standards. You must treat alternatively to start with but you can't with hold a life saving treatment and the animal must leave your farm if you give it conventional drugs. It is the same way with Certified Naturally Grown. Also if you sell more than 5000.00 a year you must be certified organic to sell that way, not 6000.00. - In RawDairy , " Charity " wrote: > > That's why I simply say that my focus is on the humane treatment of > the animals and not some " label " . > > > " R. Underhill " <rradunderhill@> wrote: > > > > I agree with this. I think if you deny an animal conventional > medicine when it needs it because of the whole " Organic " issue, it's > not right. My biggest thing is hormones and the way an animal is > treated. I won't support factory farming. I want the animals to be > allowed to roam MUCH of the time and be treated with respect and > care. > > > > It's hard to find what we look for as consumers in all cases, thus > all the better the reason to grow our own. Then we know what we are > consuming. I'm probably bigger on animal rights then anything else. > > > > a > > Re: Re:Organic? > > > > > > This is why I call our operation natural and holistic rather than > > organic. My goats get room to excersise and fresh air and > sunshine > > outside...which I want them to have. But they don't have to have > a > > natural life in order to be " organic. " > > > > *~*~* Jo & Pete *~*~* > > @ > > " Laudo Deum " Farm > > kinderfolk_n_liddlebuds@ > > > > Raising quality Kinder and Nigerian Dwarf goats > > for small acreage farmers, homesteaders and > > families with young children. > > (And producing natural soaps for humans and animals.) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 You can not deny the animal treatment just to save your organic standards. You must treat alternatively to start with but you can't with hold a life saving treatment and the animal must leave your farm if you give it conventional drugs. It is the same way with Certified Naturally Grown. Also if you sell more than 5000.00 a year you must be certified organic to sell that way, not 6000.00. - In RawDairy , " Charity " wrote: > > That's why I simply say that my focus is on the humane treatment of > the animals and not some " label " . > > > " R. Underhill " <rradunderhill@> wrote: > > > > I agree with this. I think if you deny an animal conventional > medicine when it needs it because of the whole " Organic " issue, it's > not right. My biggest thing is hormones and the way an animal is > treated. I won't support factory farming. I want the animals to be > allowed to roam MUCH of the time and be treated with respect and > care. > > > > It's hard to find what we look for as consumers in all cases, thus > all the better the reason to grow our own. Then we know what we are > consuming. I'm probably bigger on animal rights then anything else. > > > > a > > Re: Re:Organic? > > > > > > This is why I call our operation natural and holistic rather than > > organic. My goats get room to excersise and fresh air and > sunshine > > outside...which I want them to have. But they don't have to have > a > > natural life in order to be " organic. " > > > > *~*~* Jo & Pete *~*~* > > @ > > " Laudo Deum " Farm > > kinderfolk_n_liddlebuds@ > > > > Raising quality Kinder and Nigerian Dwarf goats > > for small acreage farmers, homesteaders and > > families with young children. > > (And producing natural soaps for humans and animals.) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 Organic used to mean something...but it has become just another labeling issue that someone can buy from the government if they fill out the right forms, take token steps to do what the government wants, and PAY THE GOVERNMENT for the right to use the word organic on their label. If you want to see just how much organic really means, go to the spaghetti sauce aisle at your supermarket. You'll find Prego " Organic " Spaghetti Sause...I don't THINK so... Bob > > > > That's why I simply say that my focus is on the humane treatment > of > > the animals and not some " label " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 I read $6,000 but whether its 5 or 6 doesn't make that much of a difference. If I was only selling 6 or 7K a year then I wouldn't waste a grand of that to get certified organic!!! And I thought I already said that about the life saving treatment. I mentioned it because some people do actually think that Organic livestock farms NEVER treat their animals with medicine no matter what. I never said that was the proper thing to do. And, the animal doesn't have to leave the farm as long as it is marketed seperately and not as Organic. Of course, if its a milk cow, that makes it hard so its besst to sell the cow. " mamabice1 " wrote: You can not deny the animal treatment just to save your organic standards. You must treat alternatively to start with but you can't with hold a life saving treatment and the animal must leave your farm if you give it conventional drugs. It is the same way with Certified Naturally Grown. Also if you sell more than 5000.00 a year you must be certified organic to sell that way, not 6000.00. " Charity " <Charity@> wrote: That's why I simply say that my focus is on the humane treatment of the animals and not some " label " . " R. Underhill " <rradunderhill@> wrote: I agree with this. I think if you deny an animal conventional medicine when it needs it because of the whole " Organic " issue, it's not right. My biggest thing is hormones and the way an animal is treated. I won't support factory farming. I want the animals to be allowed to roam MUCH of the time and be treated with respect and care. I'm probably bigger on animal rights then anything else. a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 EXACTLY!!! " Bob Hayles " wrote: > > Organic used to mean something...but it has become just another > labeling issue that someone can buy from the government if they fill > out the right forms, take token steps to do what the government wants, > and PAY THE GOVERNMENT for the right to use the word organic on their > label. > > If you want to see just how much organic really means, go to the > spaghetti sauce aisle at your supermarket. You'll find Prego > " Organic " Spaghetti Sause...I don't THINK so... > > Bob " Charity " <Charity@> wrote: That's why I simply say that my focus is on the humane treatment of the animals and not some " label " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 Another good point. I also raise all of my animals as pets and with names (well not all of the chickens have names but one does). Just because I raise them for meat doesn't mean they can't be happy until their day. I have a boar (Dozer) that got Pneumonia when he was younger and I treated him for it. I would have hated to ship him off because I was trying to keep some label. He is the sweetest big monster yuo'll ever meet. When he was little he would come snuggle in my lap. Now, I'll go in the pen and lay on him, scrtach his head, brush him with a curry comb, reach my hand in his mouth to see how his tusks are progressing (Which we do NOT saw off!!!), etc. When I had one of the breeding girls turn mean one day, he even stepped in to protect me from his girlfriend! I also have a pet bull (Friday) that follows me around the farm wanting love too. Even without fences. I'll take him for walks on a halter too. He hasn't needed anything but, no label is worth loosing either one before their time. BTW, Marshall, WI? I need 3 cows and I don't care about labels as long as they are healthy and gentle. " kathryn russell " wrote: There is a farm north of me, Marshall, that sells organic raw milk cheeses. I have a farmer friend who buys cows from them to use as brood cows at decent prices because, for one reason or the other, they have had to use anti-biotics and the cow then has to move on. Sorry, but I cannot see that as being good for my animals. They are all named and loved. For example, a couple years ago we had a cow that split her hoof. There was a milk withdrawal, but to ship her off and play " let's pretend " I do not feel is kind to the animals, nor appropriate. Anti-biotics used JUDICIOUSLY are not evil incarnate. And believe me, there are farms that do pretend never to use them and do. The pretense is for either 1. certified organic or 2. To placate consumers who say never. I am not going to let an animal suffer when judicious and appropriate anti-biotic use could make a big difference. Unfortunately, most people cannot have a conversation with their food producer, and find out " where they are " in the scheme of things. That is the advantage, to the consumer of certifieds and labelings. And the advantage for the producer is not having to explain to the consumer. I plan on staying small enough to communicate with my consumers and let them know where I stand. www.majestyfarm.com <http://www.majestyfarm.com/> " Charity " <Charity@> wrote: That's why I simply say that my focus is on the humane treatment of the animals and not some " label " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Well then thank you for pointing that out about Certified Naturally Grown. I HAD been considering applying for that cetification. I will not now. I am not going to sell off animals ONLY because I had to treat them with a medicine. So far only one animals I've had to treat but, he is my PET boar and currently the herd boar. How could I give up the boar that at 20 lbs would climb into my lap to snuggle. If I would've sold him off at 4 months old (when he got sick) he wouldn't have been in my barn 2 months ago to protcet me from his girlfiriend that went nuts one day and tried to attack me. He actually got in between us and defended me. (She on the other hand tasted real good after I brought my neat little packages of meat home a month after this incident). Like I said before, no label is worth sacrificing what I believe is right. " mamabice1 " wrote: > > . > > > - In RawDairy , " Charity " <Charity@> wrote: > > > I never said that was the proper thing to do. And, the animal > > doesn't have to leave the farm as long as it is marketed > seperately > > and not as Organic. > > [When we went on a pasture walk a few years ago there was a > representative there from MOSA( Midwest Organic Services Association) > The certifying agency for Wisconsin. She told us that this is the > way it is. > We became certifiers and board members for Certified Naturally > Grown. We cover Wisconsin,Minnesota,Illinois,Iowa and the lower part > of Michigan. > We helped put together the standards for the animal part of > Certified Naturally Grown. > #5.Livestock may not be sold as Certified Naturally Grown even if > they are raised according to CNG standards, if they are raised on a > farm or ranch in which other livestock are raised conventionally. (In > other words, all livestock must be raised according to CNG > standards, except for those animals being treated and quarantined > for health reasons.Such animals do not jepardize the status of other > animals) > #6.A farm or ranch that has been Certified Naturally Grown may not > sell or market conventionally grown meat products. > > > > > " Charity " <Charity@> wrote: > > > > That's why I simply say that my focus is on the humane treatment > > of the animals and not some " label " . > > > > > > " R. Underhill " <rradunderhill@> wrote: > > > > I agree with this. I think if you deny an animal conventional > > medicine when it needs it because of the whole " Organic " issue, > > it's not right. My biggest thing is hormones and the way an animal > is > > treated. I won't support factory farming. I want the animals to be > > allowed to roam MUCH of the time and be treated with respect and > > care. I'm probably bigger on animal rights then anything > > else. > > > > a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 What are you going to do with him when he gets to big to breed? They all do. There are approved things that you can use and you can learn to do things more naturally like herbs and homeopathic remedies. - In RawDairy , " Charity " wrote: > > Well then thank you for pointing that out about Certified Naturally > Grown. I HAD been considering applying for that cetification. I will > not now. I am not going to sell off animals ONLY because I had to > treat them with a medicine. So far only one animals I've had to treat > but, he is my PET boar and currently the herd boar. How could I give > up the boar that at 20 lbs would climb into my lap to snuggle. If I > would've sold him off at 4 months old (when he got sick) he wouldn't > have been in my barn 2 months ago to protcet me from his girlfiriend > that went nuts one day and tried to attack me. He actually got in > between us and defended me. (She on the other hand tasted real good > after I brought my neat little packages of meat home a month after > this incident). Like I said before, no label is worth sacrificing > what I believe is right. > > " mamabice1 " <mamabice1@> wrote: > > > > . > > > > > > - In RawDairy , " Charity " <Charity@> wrote: > > > > > > I never said that was the proper thing to do. And, the animal > > > doesn't have to leave the farm as long as it is marketed > > seperately > > > and not as Organic. > > > > [When we went on a pasture walk a few years ago there was a > > representative there from MOSA( Midwest Organic Services > Association) > > The certifying agency for Wisconsin. She told us that this is the > > way it is. > > We became certifiers and board members for Certified Naturally > > Grown. We cover Wisconsin,Minnesota,Illinois,Iowa and the lower > part > > of Michigan. > > We helped put together the standards for the animal part of > > Certified Naturally Grown. > > #5.Livestock may not be sold as Certified Naturally Grown even if > > they are raised according to CNG standards, if they are raised on a > > farm or ranch in which other livestock are raised conventionally. > (In > > other words, all livestock must be raised according to CNG > > standards, except for those animals being treated and quarantined > > for health reasons.Such animals do not jepardize the status of > other > > animals) > > #6.A farm or ranch that has been Certified Naturally Grown may not > > sell or market conventionally grown meat products. > > > > > > > > > " Charity " <Charity@> wrote: > > > > > > That's why I simply say that my focus is on the humane treatment > > > of the animals and not some " label " . > > > > > > > > > " R. Underhill " <rradunderhill@> wrote: > > > > > > I agree with this. I think if you deny an animal conventional > > > medicine when it needs it because of the whole " Organic " issue, > > > it's not right. My biggest thing is hormones and the way an > animal > > is > > > treated. I won't support factory farming. I want the animals to > be > > > allowed to roam MUCH of the time and be treated with respect and > > > care. I'm probably bigger on animal rights then anything > > > else. > > > > > > a > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 We are actually hoping to keep him around as a retired boar, just a pet. If we can't afford that, then we will take him in but, not before his time. It's not a matter of too big to breed, it's too old. After 3 years of age their sperm cells drop tremediously. By 4 years of age they are basically sterile. He will be 1 on New Year's Day. He still has two more years of happy life ahead of him. I'm still on my learning curve away from conventional medicine and I was not far enough along then to know what else to do. But, what natural remedies are there for pneumonis in pigs? " mamabice1 " wrote: What are you going to do with him when he gets to big to breed? They all do. There are approved things that you can use and you can learn to do things more naturally like herbs and homeopathic remedies. " Charity " <Charity@> wrote: Well then thank you for pointing that out about Certified Naturally Grown. I HAD been considering applying for that cetification. I will not now. I am not going to sell off animals ONLY because I had to treat them with a medicine. So far only one animals I've had to treat but, he is my PET boar and currently the herd boar. How could I give up the boar that at 20 lbs would climb into my lap to snuggle. If I would've sold him off at 4 months old (when he got sick) he wouldn't have been in my barn 2 months ago to protcet me from his girlfiriend that went nuts one day and tried to attack me. He actually got in between us and defended me. (She on the other hand tasted real good after I brought my neat little packages of meat home a month after this incident). Like I said before, no label is worth sacrificing what I believe is right. " mamabice1 " <mamabice1@> wrote: When we went on a pasture walk a few years ago there was a representative there from MOSA( Midwest Organic Services Association)The certifying agency for Wisconsin. She told us that this is the way it is.We became certifiers and board members for Certified Naturally Grown. We cover Wisconsin,Minnesota,Illinois,Iowa and the lower part of Michigan.We helped put together the standards for the animal part of Certified Naturally Grown. #5.Livestock may not be sold as Certified Naturally Grown even if they are raised according to CNG standards, if they are raised on a farm or ranch in which other livestock are raised conventionally. (In other words, all livestock must be raised according to CNG standards, except for those animals being treated and quarantined for health reasons.Such animals do not jepardize the status of other animals) #6.A farm or ranch that has been Certified Naturally Grown may not sell or market conventionally grown meat products. " Charity " <Charity@> wrote: I never said that was the proper thing to do. And, the animal doesn't have to leave the farm as long as it is marketed seperately and not as Organic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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