Re: Help! Got sick on raw milk!

[Guest guest]

If I were you I would talk to the farmer and tell him what the bacteria was

and ask that the milk be tested for it specifically. When our children had

salmonella, not from milk, we found out that dry pet food is the number one

cause for children to be infected with these things. Anyway our one son was

quite ill, much like your daughter, and the docs gave him antibiotics. The

rest of us suffered along till better. I was told by the public health

nurse that they don't like to give them drugs unless it is really severe

because it lenghthens the illness.

When you confirm that it really is coming from this farm then weigh your

options. I will send prayers for your family to get their own cow also.

That would be the best.

Debbie Chikousky

Manitoba, Canada

gdchik@...

http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/

[Guest guest]

Did the supplier do a culture when their bacteria came back high to find out

what bacteria was the problem? I'd ask them if I was you, and find out what

the counts actually were. I would not be drinking milk with high bacteria

counts. Something is wrong. They might not worry about it much if they are

commercial and the rest of their milk is heading for the pasturizer, but you

don't want to be drinking it. It's really best to know what they feed their

cows and how they do business (sanitation of equipment and milking

procedures) before trusting their milk. Now, it could be the camplobacteria

is coming from the town water source, if these symptoms are hitting a lot of

people, but the dairy needs to check things to tell. You might also ask the

doctor or hospital if other cases of camplobacteria are cropping up,

although you'd think that it would have been noticed by now, maybe not

enough people have gone to the hospital for the hospital to see it as a

" outbreak " . Maybe the water should be tested as well.

Just my thoughts,

Sally

Help! Got sick on raw milk!

>I don't know what to do. We had been buying raw milk from a

> commercial dairy for three months. After the first three days I had

> gotten a 'stomach flu bug' unlike I've ever had before. It lasted on

> and off for over a month. I had hoped it wasn't the milk. No one

> else got it but me. The talk around our small town was that there was

> a strange flu bug going around. So I dismissed it. Well, by and by,

> half of our family got the cramps/diarrhea, fever and vomitting.

> Finally, last week, after drinking the milk for over three months our

> daughter got the bug. She got it so bad that we had to take her to

> the hospital for dehydration. She also had intestinal bleeding. They

> I.V.'d her and gave her morphine for the pain. The pathology report

> came back that it was camplobacteria jujeni, which is from raw milk or

> unprocessed chicken or stream water.

>

> I do recall that the milk supplier (whom we personally like a great

> deal) did say that last month's milk supply test said that their

> bacteria was high. They were trying to find and correct this.

>

[Guest guest]

I'm in the upper northwest corner of KS. The milk we buy from is in

Alma, NE. I did call her today and tell her we'll 'pause' for now

until we decide what to do.

robin

>

> where are you located robin?

> ro-iowa

> Help! Got sick on raw milk!

>

>

[Guest guest]

When I called and asked if they are told actual bacteriams, she said

no. They haven't done a culture either. She's not sure where or how

to have that done. They do sell to another party. They've not had

the trouble we have. To be honest, I thought the conditions were not

sanitary. They have about a hundred head on about ten acres. They

are feedlot. Lots of standing manure and urine. The cows came in at

ten at a time to be milked. They would spray the teats, milk them

then iodine the teats. I did see from time to time that the milk

machine (sorry, I don't know the terms!), would loose suction and come

off and hit the cement..which was full of manure. They didn't wash

the 'milk suckers' off before re-applying them.

The rest of us have 'gotten over' our bug. I'm thinking our bodies

have built up an anti-body base against these particular bacterias.

My husband wants to keep drinking it. I'm at a total loss.

Thanx,

robin

>

> Did the supplier do a culture when their bacteria came back high to

find out

> what bacteria was the problem? I'd ask them if I was you, and find

out what

> the counts actually were. I would not be drinking milk with high

bacteria

> counts. Something is wrong. They might not worry about it much if

they are

> commercial and the rest of their milk is heading for the pasturizer,

but you

> don't want to be drinking it. It's really best to know what they

feed their

> cows and how they do business (sanitation of equipment and milking

> procedures) before trusting their milk. Now, it could be the

camplobacteria

> is coming from the town water source, if these symptoms are hitting

a lot of

> people, but the dairy needs to check things to tell. You might also

ask the

> doctor or hospital if other cases of camplobacteria are cropping up,

> although you'd think that it would have been noticed by now, maybe not

> enough people have gone to the hospital for the hospital to see it as a

> " outbreak " . Maybe the water should be tested as well.

>

> Just my thoughts,

> Sally

>

[Guest guest]

Robin,

As a farmer, I can tell you that the conditions you describe here are NOT

appropriate conditions that would deem drinking the milk raw safe! With

100 head on ten acres, not only is there not enough pasture to support that

many cows meaning they are getting very little grass, the worm load would

have to be sky high. They would have to be feeding an awful lot of grain

which would change the ph is cows stomachs and make a great breeding ground

for bacteria, especially e-coli.

Cows being milked in an area with standing manure and urine and hosing off

of cows is disgusting! All that would do is move the feces around. It

sounds like you are lucky that you did not get e-coli or something worse!

When looking at farms look for sanitary conditions. A barn is a barn, and

will never look like a kitchen but cows being milked surrounded by feces is

just dangerous and a milking claw that drops down to ground should be

immediately removed and replaced and all the milk in the bucket thrown out

and bucket washed. We do this if it happens and there is no feces in the

area where our girls are milked.

My suggestion would be to find another source for raw milk.. and fast.

Chisholm

Devon Dairy and Farm, Calhoun, GA

When I called and asked if they are told actual bacteriams, she said

no. They haven't done a culture either. She's not sure where or how

to have that done. They do sell to another party. They've not had

the trouble we have. To be honest, I thought the conditions were not

sanitary. They have about a hundred head on about ten acres. They

are feedlot. Lots of standing manure and urine. The cows came in at

ten at a time to be milked. They would spray the teats, milk them

then iodine the teats. I did see from time to time that the milk

machine (sorry, I don't know the terms!), would loose suction and come

off and hit the cement..which was full of manure. They didn't wash

the 'milk suckers' off before re-applying them.

The rest of us have 'gotten over' our bug. I'm thinking our bodies

have built up an anti-body base against these particular bacterias.

My husband wants to keep drinking it. I'm at a total loss.

Thanx,

robin

[Guest guest]

>You shouldn't get flamed you should be thanked.<

AMEN to THAT! I only check into this group once in a while these days and I

was horrified to see this story. This is the kind of thing that the anti-raw

milk crowd could really use. It's the kind of thing that causes laws to be

made against raw milk. It's also one of the many reasons I drive hundreds of

miles to get my raw milk from a dairy where I have seen the cleanliness of

the milking parlor and the care taken by the farmer with my own eyes.

It's also why I say that a well run state certification program for raw milk

can be a very good thing.

At least one dairy farmer in South Carolina has a milking parlor that

nothing like this would ever happen in. I suspect even the worst in South

Carolina is nothing close to such conditions as you have described.

I would never drink that milk. I am very sorry this has happened to you. Raw

milk has greatly improved my life and health and this really upsets me.

Daddybob

[Guest guest]

I'd like to mention a few things:

1. Commercial pasteurization and homogenization are much different than gentle heating of the milk at home, and you might try home pasteurization as a temporary solution. That will be much healthier than anything in the store.

2. Historically, fermented milk was probably more the mainstay of the human dairy diet than raw - because without refrigeration, fermentation would begin immediately. Kefir has known anti-bacterial properties, and is much better and more digestible than plain raw milk. So, get yourself some kefir grains and try again!

3. Cow milk is harder to digest, even raw, than goat milk, and we have discovered in our family and community that there is wide diversity as to how well people can digest the various types of milk - some can't have any dairy at all, some only kefir, some only goat milk kefir, some kefir plus unfermented goat milk, and others, like me, can drink any kind of milk in any stage of production just fine! Particularly people who had " lactose intolerance " with commercial milk often have a longer adjustment period than those who did not.

And check your water supply! It may not be the milk at all - it is very common for someone introducing a new food to associate a problem with it that actually is something else altogether! It sounds like bacteria - but it could be elsewhere.

Hoping you are well, and that your dairy prospers, very soon,

Laurie Ann

[Guest guest]

where are you located robin?

ro-iowa

Help! Got sick on raw milk!

I don't know what to do. We had been buying raw milk from acommercial dairy for three months. After the first three days I hadgotten a 'stomach flu bug' unlike I've ever had before. It lasted onand off for over a month. I had hoped it wasn't the milk. No oneelse got it but me. The talk around our small town was that there wasa strange flu bug going around. So I dismissed it. Well, by and by,half of our family got the cramps/diarrhea, fever and vomitting. Finally, last week, after drinking the milk for over three months ourdaughter got the bug. She got it so bad that we had to take her tothe hospital for dehydration. She also had intestinal bleeding. TheyI.V.'d her and gave her morphine for the pain. The pathology reportcame back that it was camplobacteria jujeni, which is from raw milk orunprocessed chicken or stream water. I do recall that the milk supplier (whom we personally like a greatdeal) did say that last month's milk supply test said that theirbacteria was high. They were trying to find and correct this.Of course, after is almost over it, the doc wants to put her onan antibiotic! When I first got this it came and left in stages. Thefirst time was the worst. I'd get better. And then get it again. Each time a bit less than the previous time. Even today though, I didget some cramps after using the cream in my coffee. Will we everbuild up enough antibodies to overcome this? Why did half of thefamily get sick and not the other? I'm assuming the healthy half hadbetter immunity.So, do we stop drinking the milk that has cow manure in it? Or do Igo back to buying store-bought milk? Or do we stop drinking milkaltogether? I'm very disappointed about this. We are praying thatGod would make a way for us to have our own Jersey! (Right now, thatwould be impossible). Time to teach my kiddos. All comments would be appreciated.TIA,robin

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[Guest guest]

While I've seen dairy farms in this bad of condition (during an

interview actually, even was offered the job - I turned it down!)what

rose my suspicion is the cows:land ratio. 100 cows on 10 acres just

doesn't sound LEGAL much less good for the animals health or the

safety of the milk. There are things called zoning laws that would

never allow that in Wisconsin. Unless, of course, the farmer HAS

adequate land but, chooses to grow crops on the rest.

I also do not see how ANYBODY would be willing to drink that milk BUT

I have seen it done. At the second dairy farm I worked at, they were

milked in a pipeline system. That means they are milked in barn

stalls that are impossible to get sanitarily clean (and most don't

even try that hard). The stalls are manually scraped after each group

of cows leaves and before the next group comes in. This only gets the

fresh manure out of the way. It does nothing for the dried, caked-in

manure that is a permament fixture of the barn. In adition, if the

cows defecates, then the claw comes off and gets reattached, there

will still be manure IN the claw because the suction does not stop

immediately after the claw falls off. No matter how well I would wipe

the claw off (paper towels was all that I was allowed and then was

yelled at if I took too long and slowed down the line -- did I

mention I quit this dairy farm too)I could always still see manure in

the bore (bore is the part of the claw that does the suction on the

teat). Anyways, the owner of the dairy farm was an active owner and

was perfectly aware of what was in his milk. Yet, he still drank it

and so did his whole family and raw too. They never got sick from it

BUT I got sick to my stomach thinking about it. I won't even go into

some of the other stuff that got into the milktank. If people knew

what went on at dairy farms and what went into that milk before the

past & hom of it, they would NEVER consume another dairy product!

This is the whole reason I want a micro raw dairy, so that I can

control the sanitary conditions and the health of the animals before

I drink anything. I'm not even sure yet if I will offer

any " goatshares " or " cowshares " or just keep it small enough for just

my family, pigs and bottle-babies. If you want the benefits of raw

milk, you MUST visit the farm and at a VERY minimum not feel sorry

for the way the animals are treated. If you are a health conscious

person, you have got to want only healthy stuff (and not manure,

urine, flies, bedding or bloody or chunky milk) going into your body

just because thats what went into your milk tank. If you are fine

with drinking milk from those conditions then just go to your nearest

grocery store because at that point and under those conditions, it

would be healthier for you!

> >

> > .

> > When I called and asked if they are told actual bacteriams, she

said

> > no. They haven't done a culture either. She's not sure where or

how

> > to have that done. They do sell to another party. They've not had

> > the trouble we have. To be honest, I thought the conditions were

not

> > sanitary. They have about a hundred head on about ten acres. They

> > are feedlot. Lots of standing manure and urine. The cows came in

at

> > ten at a time to be milked. They would spray the teats, milk them

> > then iodine the teats. I did see from time to time that the milk

> > machine (sorry, I don't know the terms!), would loose suction and

come

> > off and hit the cement..which was full of manure. They didn't wash

> > the 'milk suckers' off before re-applying them.

> >

> > The rest of us have 'gotten over' our bug. I'm thinking our bodies

> > have built up an anti-body base against these particular

bacterias.

> > My husband wants to keep drinking it. I'm at a total loss.

> >

> > Thanx,

> > robin

[Guest guest]

Dear Robin & Group:

Unfortunately these are the situations that give Raw Dairy a bad name.

So far no one has brought up the issue of Dysbiosis and Probiotics.

Only you, Robin, can judge the Gastro-Intestinal health of yourself

and the rest of family. However, if you are anywhere close to the

average person out there, your GI flora may not be very healthy,

aside from the current issues with Campylobacter.

If you do a little research on Probiotics and Campylobacter, you will

be pleasantly surprised. Please do not take me wrong; I am NOT

advocating carelessness and lack of attention to cleanliness and

hygiene in the process of milking and getting the raw milk to your

table. Clear honest communication with your provider can take care of

this issue. If not, get another provider. However, with a healthy GI

tract, you and the family can avoid major trouble due to the

occasional pathogen that may slip by.

I feel that recommending you do not consume raw milk, or raw eggs,

etc., is akin to you getting a " Headectomy " when you have a headache.

That is, if you agree that processed milk, and processed food in

general, has little nutritional value.

I have been consuming raw eggs, raw meat, raw vegetables, and raw

dairy when available, for many years without ill effects. Of course,

I do take care of the basic snitation, and my Vita-Nutrients and

Probiotics.

I find it interesting, that during the recent " Spinach " trouble, and

now Salmonella showing up from who knows where, very little, better

nothing, was or has been said about the Dysbiotic condition of those

affected. I venture to guess that most of the ones affected are in

poor health condition to start with. The SAD (Standard American Diet)

nutrition in America is not very health promoting, unfortunately.

Again, I am NOT suggesting that we ignore basic rules of hygiene.

However, wild boars, birds, etc., have been roaming our crops since

immemorial times; and our ancestors probably just scrapped off the

dung and had a nice meal (before they learned to use fire and destroy

the nutritional value of the food).

One important note about antibiotics. Antibiotics will kill the

entire GI flora, the good ones and the bad ones. So if you take

antibiotics, you should make sure you take Probiotics, especially at

the end, after you finish the prescribed antibiotics. I suggest you

take 4 to 6 capsules per day for a week, of a good quality

Probiotics. It is sad, but very few doctors advice their patients of

this very important matter.

Best wishes.

Johan

>

> I don't know what to do. We had been buying raw milk from a

> commercial dairy for three months. After the first three days I had

> gotten a 'stomach flu bug' unlike I've ever had before. It lasted

on

> and off for over a month. I had hoped it wasn't the milk. No one

> else got it but me. The talk around our small town was that there

was

> a strange flu bug going around. So I dismissed it. Well, by and

by,

> half of our family got the cramps/diarrhea, fever and vomitting.

> Finally, last week, after drinking the milk for over three months

our

> daughter got the bug. She got it so bad that we had to take her to

> the hospital for dehydration. She also had intestinal bleeding.

They

> I.V.'d her and gave her morphine for the pain. The pathology report

> came back that it was camplobacteria jujeni, which is from raw milk

or

> unprocessed chicken or stream water.

>

> I do recall that the milk supplier (whom we personally like a great

> deal) did say that last month's milk supply test said that their

> bacteria was high. They were trying to find and correct this.

>

> Of course, after is almost over it, the doc wants to put her

on

> an antibiotic! When I first got this it came and left in stages.

The

> first time was the worst. I'd get better. And then get it again.

> Each time a bit less than the previous time. Even today though, I

did

> get some cramps after using the cream in my coffee. Will we ever

> build up enough antibodies to overcome this? Why did half of the

> family get sick and not the other? I'm assuming the healthy half

had

> better immunity.

>

> So, do we stop drinking the milk that has cow manure in it? Or do I

> go back to buying store-bought milk? Or do we stop drinking milk

> altogether? I'm very disappointed about this. We are praying that

> God would make a way for us to have our own Jersey! (Right now,

that

> would be impossible).

>

> Time to teach my kiddos. All comments would be appreciated.

>

> TIA,

> robin

>

[Guest guest]

Okay Robin,

Here's the deal. I would not drink milk from a commercial dairy. The

problem with commercial dairies is not usually sanitation. The problem

is in what they feed. They feed grain. You need grass-feediing. I know

it is a struggle to find a grass-fed, local farm that does not feed much

grain, but that is what you need to find. As Mark McAfee proves in his

pathogen testing at his farm, Organic Pastures in CA, the more grain

you feed a cow, the more pathogens will form in her gut. This is just

a sad fact. Grain-feeding increases milk production but it also causes

pathogens in the gastrointestinal system of a cow. Mark grass-feeds

almost exclusively. Even the cow manure tested on his farm contains

no human pathogens. None whatsoever.

I would recommend not drinking any milk from a commercial dairy.

They are feeding lots of grain to increase output and pump up profits,

understandably so. I mean, they want to stay in business. But that milk

should akways be pasteurized. When you drink it raw you are taking a

lot of chances. You've been way more tolerant of it than I would have

been at this point. I would've ceased buying from them long ago and

sought out other sources.

But if you were determined to keep drinking it, I would just ferment it into

kefir as the kefir bacteria would absolutely and completely overwhelm

any campy bacteria or whatever and make that milk more safe. JMHO.

Here's a story from long ago that may shock people. Cleanliness

is not so much the issue. It CAN be a factor, but not likely. The cows

below were likely grassfed cows--had to be. Check it out.

Jack Mathis, President of Atlanta's Mathis Dairy, was invited to inspect the

dairy at the

Atlanta City Prison Farm and make suggestions for modernization. He said, " It

looked

more like an outhouse than a milking parlor. " Manure on the cow's hindquarters

was

running over the teats, the milking apparatus, and into the milk. From the

milking

machine, the milk ran into an open ten-gallon can by hose. " You couldn't see

the top of

the can for the flies, " Mathis said. " It was like a bee hive with flies walking

in and out of

the can. "

Mr. Mathis assumed that the milk was for the prison farm pigs, but it wasn't.

It went

directly to a cooler in the prison dining hall, complete with cow and fly manure

and fly

carcasses. It was simply strained through the cooler and then drunk by the

prisoners. No

case of pathogenic contamination occurred that was caused by the raw milk in 10

years. If

raw milk is such a danger, why didn't any one get sick?

Good luck,

D.

moderator

>

> I don't know what to do. We had been buying raw milk from a

> commercial dairy for three months. After the first three days I had

> gotten a 'stomach flu bug' unlike I've ever had before. It lasted on

> and off for over a month. I had hoped it wasn't the milk. No one

> else got it but me. The talk around our small town was that there was

> a strange flu bug going around. So I dismissed it. Well, by and by,

> half of our family got the cramps/diarrhea, fever and vomitting.

> Finally, last week, after drinking the milk for over three months our

> daughter got the bug. She got it so bad that we had to take her to

> the hospital for dehydration. She also had intestinal bleeding. They

> I.V.'d her and gave her morphine for the pain. The pathology report

> came back that it was camplobacteria jujeni, which is from raw milk or

> unprocessed chicken or stream water.

>

> I do recall that the milk supplier (whom we personally like a great

> deal) did say that last month's milk supply test said that their

> bacteria was high. They were trying to find and correct this.

>

> Of course, after is almost over it, the doc wants to put her on

> an antibiotic! When I first got this it came and left in stages. The

> first time was the worst. I'd get better. And then get it again.

> Each time a bit less than the previous time. Even today though, I did

> get some cramps after using the cream in my coffee. Will we ever

> build up enough antibodies to overcome this? Why did half of the

> family get sick and not the other? I'm assuming the healthy half had

> better immunity.

>

> So, do we stop drinking the milk that has cow manure in it? Or do I

> go back to buying store-bought milk? Or do we stop drinking milk

> altogether? I'm very disappointed about this. We are praying that

> God would make a way for us to have our own Jersey! (Right now, that

> would be impossible).

>

> Time to teach my kiddos. All comments would be appreciated.

>

> TIA,

> robin

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jessi,

The best person to contact for verification on this is Aajonus

Vonderplanitz. His email is: optimal@...

Good luck!

D.

>

> Hi ;

>

> I am very interested in being able to document the prison story? Can you

> quote a source that I can look up?

>

> Jessi

>

> LHR Manufacturing

> Setting The Standard for Portable Milking Machines

> http://www.milking-machines.com

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>I would not drink milk from a commercial dairy.<

, you run a fine list and do a good service but I must take you to task

for this. You have badly limited the options. Mark McAfee runs a commercial

dairy. Everyone who milks a cow and sells milk is running a commercial

enterprise. You cannot paint them all with such a wide brush. Of course I

know what you really meant, that being dairies that sell the bulk of their

milk to the milk companies.

The awful conditions that have been attributed to ALL commercial dairies are

mostly true, I agree, but not ALL commercial dairies are like this. I can

assure you of one that I have now been to in South Carolina many times that

makes every human effort to graze a large herd on grass as much as possible

and keeps a clean milking parlor. I have to make a 600+ mile round trip to

get that milk.

I can drive about 75 miles from my home and get milk from a small-time

Lumbee Indian farmer with cows that are 100% pasture grazed and never fed

anything else other than hay. He milks by hand. The conditions are

relatively clean. The pasture is not sprayed with poisons. The milk won't

keep in the fridge for more than a week because the local climate is hot and

humid and the milk stays in the udder for a once a day milking. The local

pastures grow weeds in abundance because the climate here is nearly

subtropical. The taste of the milk will nearly knock you down if you've

never had such before. But if you want 100% local pasture fed milk you can

sure get it. I have opted not to.

I have access to milk from Amish country that is 100% grass fed. I am

unconvinced that it is the thing for me to do. At the risk of sounding like

I'm knocking the Amish, let me assure one and all that is not my intent but

the Amish are human just like anyone else. I have good knowledge that in

business, some of them readily abandon all the principles that they live

their personal lives by. I have gotten meat from the Amish that was shodily

processed and it made me wonder about the way the milk was handled. Since I

can't go there to see with my own eyes, nor has anyone else I know, I have

opted not to order more.

Please don't suppose that I use these experiences to make wide criticism of

every Lumbee or Amish farmer and their products. Likewise, I won't make

sweeping statements about all commercial dairies or dairy farmers.

The dairyman I buy from feeds his cows on his own grass or locally produced

hay as much as possible, but weather conditions do not always allow that.

The last batch I got was wonderful. The rainfall had been only just enough

for 3 months to keep the grass growing and the grass had copious sunlight

(very important!). The feeding had hardly been supplemented at all. The cows

were in great health because of the moderate weather. Such conditions simply

do not exist all the time and surely he will have to supplement with grain

again at some point. It's a roll-with-the-punches kind of life and the

farmer is making the best he can of it. BTW, his milk consistently tests at

under a third of the legal allowable Somatic Cell Count.

Please don't make it harder on him or other concientious commercial farmers

by scaring everybody away.

The idea that everyone should get milk from small farmers who never use any

undesirable substance or technique is a lofty ideal but largely unattainable

given our present socio-economic paradigm and the variance in local

climates. I surely wish it were not so and I hope for the day that it is so.

Until then I must deal with the present realities and I do so by educating

myself as much as possible about the entirety of the situation and shopping

carefully.

If I took the no-commercial-dairy attitude, I would never have had the

wonderful muscle-strengthening effects I've had from drinking raw milk and

raw milk kefir over the past nearly 2 years now.

Now I've got to stop this and go strain out a big batch of kefir, start

another one, then strain the whey from the first one, 'cause whey is where

it's really at if you want the strength from the milk without the waistline

expansion or the calcium overdose.

Daddybob

[Guest guest]

>

> Dear Robin & Group:

>

> Unfortunately these are the situations that give Raw Dairy a bad name.

>

> So far no one has brought up the issue of Dysbiosis and Probiotics.

> Only you, Robin, can judge the Gastro-Intestinal health of yourself

> and the rest of family. However, if you are anywhere close to the

> average person out there, your GI flora may not be very healthy,

> aside from the current issues with Campylobacter.

>

> If you do a little research on Probiotics and Campylobacter, you will

> be pleasantly surprised. Please do not take me wrong; I am NOT

> advocating carelessness and lack of attention to cleanliness and

> hygiene in the process of milking and getting the raw milk to your

> table. Clear honest communication with your provider can take care of

> this issue. If not, get another provider. However, with a healthy GI

> tract, you and the family can avoid major trouble due to the

> occasional pathogen that may slip by.

>

> I feel that recommending you do not consume raw milk, or raw eggs,

> etc., is akin to you getting a " Headectomy " when you have a headache.

> That is, if you agree that processed milk, and processed food in

> general, has little nutritional value.

>

> I have been consuming raw eggs, raw meat, raw vegetables, and raw

> dairy when available, for many years without ill effects. Of course,

> I do take care of the basic snitation, and my Vita-Nutrients and

> Probiotics.

>

> I find it interesting, that during the recent " Spinach " trouble, and

> now Salmonella showing up from who knows where, very little, better

> nothing, was or has been said about the Dysbiotic condition of those

> affected. I venture to guess that most of the ones affected are in

> poor health condition to start with. The SAD (Standard American Diet)

> nutrition in America is not very health promoting, unfortunately.

> Again, I am NOT suggesting that we ignore basic rules of hygiene.

> However, wild boars, birds, etc., have been roaming our crops since

> immemorial times; and our ancestors probably just scrapped off the

> dung and had a nice meal (before they learned to use fire and destroy

> the nutritional value of the food).

>

> One important note about antibiotics. Antibiotics will kill the

> entire GI flora, the good ones and the bad ones. So if you take

> antibiotics, you should make sure you take Probiotics, especially at

> the end, after you finish the prescribed antibiotics. I suggest you

> take 4 to 6 capsules per day for a week, of a good quality

> Probiotics. It is sad, but very few doctors advice their patients of

> this very important matter.

>

> Best wishes.

>

> Johan

Thank you Johan. This is interesting. I was the first one to react

badly to the milk. I'm also the only one to have received antibiotics

six months ago (after not having them for nearly eight years). So, I

suspect I was vulnerable. Our dd is also the one that seems to get

ill the monst anyway. As I said, other than #2 son, the rest of the

family had no adverse affect.

Nevertheless...out of desperation we went back to store bought milk.

I so want our own Jerseys...I even dream about them!

[Guest guest]

I am 'legit'. I resent being accused of misconduct. I came here to

learn about raw milk. Then this event happens in our family. I share

it here and you accuse me of playing a prank? Good grief.

We live in a VERY small, rural community. There are no choices in

many decisions. We either buy storebought, or we take chances on the

way things have been done around here for generations.

I'm looking for advice, not accusations.

> >

> > .

> > When I called and asked if they are told actual bacteriams, she said

> > no. They haven't done a culture either. She's not sure where or how

> > to have that done. They do sell to another party. They've not had

> > the trouble we have. To be honest, I thought the conditions were not

> > sanitary. They have about a hundred head on about ten acres. They

> > are feedlot. Lots of standing manure and urine. The cows came in at

> > ten at a time to be milked. They would spray the teats, milk them

> > then iodine the teats. I did see from time to time that the milk

> > machine (sorry, I don't know the terms!), would loose suction and come

> > off and hit the cement..which was full of manure. They didn't wash

> > the 'milk suckers' off before re-applying them.

> >

> > The rest of us have 'gotten over' our bug. I'm thinking our bodies

> > have built up an anti-body base against these particular bacterias.

> > My husband wants to keep drinking it. I'm at a total loss.

> >

> > Thanx,

> > robin

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> in Oklahoma

> Concharty English Shepherds http://www.concharty.com

> Interested in working from home?

> http://karencline.thewhycircle.com/

>

[Guest guest]

Hi robin...sorry you are getting a little bit slammed, but you need to

understand that because of the shaky legal position of raw milk in the

states where it is legal, either for human consumption, or where, like

here in Georgia where it must be sold as " Pet Food...Not For Human

Consumption " , folks, both consumers that don't want to lose their

sources, and producers who don't want the authorities breathing down

their necks, sometimes seem to be a bit paranoid.

I'm one of those producers. I'm a small goat dairy in Georgia where

raw milk is illegal except when it is sold and labeled as " Pet Food,

Not For Human Consumption " . That means that in Georgia it's kind of

like the military's position on gays... " Don't Ask, Don't Tell " .

Public talk, and this IS a public board, of small dairys producing

milk in unsanitary conditions sends some of us over the edge, fearful

of it bringing the wrath of state ag departments down on the rest of us.

With that said, I've gotta say that, based on your description, there

is no way I would drink milk produced in the conditions you

describe...and this comes from one whose dairy would give some folks

pause. I run a very old fashioned operation...homemade chilling

equipment, a milking shed, not a fancy parlor, an ancient milking

machine that is so old it probably came over on the ark...you get the

idea.

But I care about the health of my customers, and I consider them

friends, and I won't let a drop of milk out of here that I wouldn't

drink myself. As a matter of fact I DO drink it. My milk comes from

the same place, and is handled the same way, as what I sell. I'd bet

dollars against donuts that the owner of the dairy you described

wouldn't drink what he sells you...and neither should you.

It doesn't take pristine, high dollar, fancy equipment to produce a

quality, healthful, safe product...but it does take caring for your

animals, which doesn't mean feedlot conditions, and it does take

sanitary handling of the milk. The place you describe does neither.

Off my soapbox.

Bob

>

> I am 'legit'. I resent being accused of misconduct. I came here to

> learn about raw milk. Then this event happens in our family. I share

> it here and you accuse me of playing a prank? Good grief.

[Guest guest]

Hi Daddybob,

Well, thank you for the clarification. When I say " commercial dairy "

I do indeed mean confinement dairies, conventional dairies, that

only feed grain. Yes, Mark McAfe does in a sense run a " commercial

dairy " but it is not conventional, in that he does not feed grain. I

totally meant do not buy milk from commercial dairies that confine

their cows, give rBGH, and feed grain. That's what I was talking about.

But thank you for bringing it up and allowing me to clarify and put

a fine point on it.

:-)

D.

moderator

> >I would not drink milk from a commercial dairy.<

>

> , you run a fine list and do a good service but I must take you to task

> for this. You have badly limited the options. Mark McAfee runs a commercial

> dairy. Everyone who milks a cow and sells milk is running a commercial

> enterprise. You cannot paint them all with such a wide brush. Of course I

> know what you really meant, that being dairies that sell the bulk of their

> milk to the milk companies.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Robin,

I want to apologize for any accusations that people have

sent your way. People are just worried with all that's been

going on lately.

We are glad to have you here in our group.

:-)

D.

moderator

>

> I am 'legit'. I resent being accused of misconduct. I came here to

> learn about raw milk. Then this event happens in our family. I share

> it here and you accuse me of playing a prank? Good grief.

>

> We live in a VERY small, rural community. There are no choices in

> many decisions. We either buy storebought, or we take chances on the

> way things have been done around here for generations.

>

> I'm looking for advice, not accusations.

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry. I do understand the situation from a producer's perspective.

I'm just desperate. We had looked and prayed to find raw milk for a

year before we actually found this one. I was overjoyed at finally

having found one. Although it wasn't what I thought would be ideal (a

small Jersey grass-fed dairy!), I figured we would still benefit from

the raw milk. I was aware that there would be 'microbes' and bacteria

that our bodies were no longer used to for generations. I expected we

may get sickly while adjusting. However, I wasn't expecting it to be

quite so violent and prolonged. And then when dd wound up in the

hospital supposedly due to the milk, I got upset about the whole

thing. I was deeply disappointed as we have grown to love our raw

milk. As was mentioned before, the folks I've talked to around here

grew up on drinking raw milk from their family-owned commercial dairies.

Not to mention, the family that owns this dairy is barely making it

financially due to the all the equipment and overhead expenses. The

husband wants to keep things the way they are. The wife loves the

idea of a more humane, grass-fed dairy but doesn't know how to go

about it. They work long hours and barely have a life outside of

their dairy. Their children have grown up on this milk. I honestly

feel sorry for them as they are stuck in a rut. But in the end, my

family comes first.

Please understand...we live in the boonies. This is a depressed,

drought-stricken region in the middle of nowhere. This is the ONLY

dairy that is willing to sell raw milk that I've been able to find

within an hours drive. I have been 'talking it up' around town,

especially with the Health Food store owner about starting a Weston

Price chapter here. I'm a great organizer and motivator for something

I believe in. But I know absolutely nothing about actual farming.

As I've already mentioned, my dh and I will be going to jakoinc.com

for a large grass-fed beef,lamb and pork purchase. I am looking very

forward to drinking a glass of clean, Brown-Swiss, grass-fed raw milk

next week! We will be purchasing a substantial amount of his butter

and cheese also.

I'm also on the N.T. email group where I'm hoping to be talked through

making stocks and rendering fat.

Adding kefir (?) to the milk is a possibility that I am curious about.

I did read a bit about kefir. It looks incredibly complicated! I

assume that it will change the taste of my sweet milk to a soured taste?

Thanx again for all the advice and patience,

robin

P.S., Sometimes a 'personal touch' can bring understanding. Here's my

website. www.acitysetupahill.com Our pics are there.

One more thing which makes me a bit nervous. Our county health

department called as the doctor is obligated to report to them

whenever a bacterial infection is diagnosed in our county. They asked

the routine questions. Of course, 'have you ingested raw milk' was

one of them. They did not ask where it was purchased. My husband

said they cannot deduce that that milk made our daughter ill.

Scientifically, we will never absolutely know. I hope they don't make

a big deal out of it. [They said they may call back] Argh.

> >

> > I am 'legit'. I resent being accused of misconduct. I came here to

> > learn about raw milk. Then this event happens in our family. I share

> > it here and you accuse me of playing a prank? Good grief.

>

[Guest guest]

There is lots advice here to make sure the farm where you get your raw milk

tests the milk

regularly. I have my own cow and share some of my milk with others. I would

like to be

responsible and test my cow's milk. What are the specific tests that are

recommended and

how often should they be done?

Yany