Guest guest Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 Yes there are only certain wormers that are approved for meat and dairy animals, Check with you vet and read labels very carefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 They are toxic poisons. Anything that goes into the cow will end up in the milk/meat. Wormers also make the animals more prone to future infestations as the immune system of the animal is compromised. The worms also build up resistance to the poison wormers which makes them harder to kill. Cheyenne > > does the use of wormers affect the milk/meat of the animal? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 I don't mean for this to sound confrontational. Would you rather have the farmer tell you "I had to worm them once last year" or hear "they have worms, do you still want the beef?" All cows have worms. Managing the load is the challenge. Increasing the amount of copper in in their diet seems to help. isaiah7_25 wrote: They are toxic poisons. Anything that goes into the cow will end up in the milk/meat. Wormers also make the animals more prone to future infestations as the immune system of the animal is compromised. The worms also build up resistance to the poison wormers which makes them harder to kill. Cheyenne -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 Does anyone check stool samples to see exactly what type of worms the animal has? This is what I do and then worm accordingly. A lot of times you can use things that are less offensive. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2006 Report Share Posted October 19, 2006 That's your opinion. Mine is that dewormers are not toxic poisons. Most have a huge margin of safety and are toxic to only the parasites, not the animal. They are tools to be used, correctly and with common sense. And, they do not linger in meat or milk, either, if used correctly. And, they do not do anything to the animal's immune system. The point of deworming is not to keep an animal free of parasites, but instead to keep parasites below LETHAL levels. The immune system gets plenty of opportunity to do it's thing. Used correctly dewormers enable you to have a healthy animal that makes the most use of what's fed to it because it's not carrying an excessive load of parasites. Do fecal egg counts and deworm only when it's needed makes sense. A lot depends upon the climate and management, too. What works in Arizona won't work in east TN. I can get by with deworming my adult cows about once or twice a year. Calves have to be watched close and need more to keep them healthy. Goats are an entirely different story. Because we have white tailed deer running wild here if we deworm goats regularly with something that will get menegeal worm larvae we have goats paralyzed and/or dying. Donna Safehaven Nubians Dandridge, TN > > > > does the use of wormers affect the milk/meat of the animal? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2006 Report Share Posted October 20, 2006 Yes. Chemical wormers have drug withdrawal times. Usually on the label. If you let me know what you are using I can help you find the info. Eprinex has no milk withdrawal times. Debbie Chikousky Manitoba, Canada gdchik@... http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/ wormers > does the use of wormers affect the milk/meat of the animal? > > > PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING! > Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/ > > Archive search: http://onibasu.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2006 Report Share Posted October 20, 2006 Why does it have to be a highly toxic poison to help manage the load. I prefer to work with the natural system rather than against it like chemical ag is. How did we and our domesticated animals survive for thousands of years without manmade poisons? I'm not trying to sound confrontational either. Just trying to get people to think. High quality food is my ultimate goal. That means without residues of any chemicals including BGH, vaccines, wormers, breeding hormones, field poisons,etc. It can be done! Copper is a good start. Good soil copper levels will help. Feeding kelp is an excellent source of colloidal copper (i.e. usable copper), plus a whole host of other nutrients that promote a healthy animal that resist parasites. Just like insects won't bother a healthy high brix plant, they won't bother a healthy animal either. Pasture rotation certainly helps to break up parasite cycles. Diatomaceous Earth, Basic H, and black walnut hulls are a few others have success with. Crystal Creek has a natural wormer. I've heard good things on it also. I have never wormed my animals, but I do rotate pastures, mineralize my soils, and produce high quality hay for winter. I feed free choice kelp, all they can eat, and very little rock minerals which are mostly undigestable. I feed no grain, byproducts, or corn silage. Anyone is welcome to come to my farm in Northern WI and see fat, healthy, Profitable, grassfed Holsteins. Cheyenne > > I don't mean for this to sound confrontational. Would you rather have > the farmer tell you " I had to worm them once last year " or hear " they > have worms, do you still want the beef? " > > All cows have worms. Managing the load is the challenge. > Increasing the amount of copper in in their diet seems to help. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2006 Report Share Posted October 20, 2006 While I agree with the natural approach for managing worm resistance, many animals are run down to a non-recoverable state by blindly trusting any wormer both chemical and natural prevention. More than trying to persuade people to go one way or another, it would be more productive to promote fecal worm counts and signs of a heavy worm load in any animal. Once you have an animal that is showing signs of anemia, rough coat, worm related illness, that is not the time to fiddle around with *how can I get rid of my animal's wormload with an all natural product?* It is then time to use a chemical wormer and use natural methods for worm resistance and support to bring an animal back to health. Every time someone says *what did animals do for thousands of years......* well they got worms and died. Not all of them but they were not owned by an individual who wanted to keep them healthy and alive long enough to utilize them for milk/meat. So when goats(or cows) died no one noticed. Just like when they bred at whatever age they bred at and died in labor or died from any disease. It was not relevent to nowadays when a farmer or homesteader has X amount of stock and needs that stock to stay healthy. No matter what your management approach is, without knowing your animals' worm count you it is just a matter of time before you end up with a problem. Amelia, MT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2006 Report Share Posted October 20, 2006 List what the heck you are talking about??? Because the dewormers we use around here- Synanthic, Ivomec, Valbazen, Cydectin, Safeguard, Panacure, are NOT 'highly toxic!' Death of livestock is pretty darned natural. But, I sure don't wish to have it as a part of my parasite control program! You might want to go take a time machine ride on back there in that dream time you make reference about, because animals and people DID NOT survive, that's just it! I am ancient enough to remember what it was like back in those 'good old days' before safe, effective dewormers. I also was blessed to have my grandparents (born in late 1890s) and great grand mother (born 1870s) to be my mentors in farming. They related in very vivid details what it was like 'in the good old days'... it wasn't all good, either. Not by a long shot. Worms killed not only animals but PEOPLE, too. Donna Safehaven Nubians Dandridge, TN > > > > I don't mean for this to sound confrontational. Would you rather have > > the farmer tell you " I had to worm them once last year " or hear " they > > have worms, do you still want the beef? " > > > > All cows have worms. Managing the load is the challenge. > > Increasing the amount of copper in in their diet seems to help. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2006 Report Share Posted October 20, 2006 I speak a lot about natural de-wormers and worming in general and the first rule I teach is: 1. It's better to have a healthy, live goat than a dead, wormy and " natural " goat. (Same goes for a cow.) 2. Whatever small amount of chemical residue left in the milk is not worse than having a dead animal and no fresh milk. Another thing we must realize is that a wormy animal is not going to give healthy milk. It will be sub-par. Chemical wormers are not toxic poisons at all. They are not even poisons. They are chemicals that inhibit certain stages in a parasites development. Pasture rotations, mineralization, MIG, herbal preventatives, species rotation and breeding for resistance, etc will all help with parasite problems but if the farmer doesn't have enough land and has too many animals on it then at some time we will need to resort to a de-wormer. The internal damage is done before we see the signs of a wormy animal. By then it is too late to use natural de-wormers. Natural de-wormers are mainly preventatives and work best when you have lots of land. DE has never been shown to work and it can be harmful to people and animals if used incorrectly. I have hopes for natural de-wormers but it seems that more study is needed on them. The Organic Livestock Handbook has some pretty good info regarding different things that will help us keep parasites down. As Donna said, animals in the past died when they had large worm loads or people tried to give them " drenches " that could easily kill the animal. I'm all for helping animals make super healthy milk but that good milk starts with the health of the animal first. *~*~* Jo & Pete *~*~* @ " Laudo Deum " Farm kinderfolk_n_liddlebuds@... Raising quality Kinder and Nigerian Dwarf goats for small acreage farmers, homesteaders and families with young children. (And producing natural soaps for humans and animals.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Try reading Mark Purdeys studies as to the real cause of mad cow. Ivomec is an organophosphate. It is horribly poisonous. Agent orange is an organophosphate. Is that non-toxic by any chance? You can put your faith in manmade concoctions. I don't. If I went back in the time machine you reference I would find people like Albrecht, Voison, Newman , and a host of others who used common sense and worked to improve and/or understand the natural system around them. Just because most farmers didn't have a clue doesn't make it right. Most of my neighbors are playing the chemical game, going broke, destroying my children's future soil and water integrity. Am I supposed to use wormers/chemicals/confinement because they are too stubborn or simple to figure out a better more sustainable way? Sorry. I'm blazing a new trail and or rediscovering lost knowledge. The future I am working toward (the Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven) will have no Monsanto, or their cohorts, or any of the GMO's or deadly poisons they push. To suggest that way back they did nothing, and let the animals die, is laughable. Have you ever read books on ag, plant or animal, from the 1800's? They had immense knowledge on dealing with animals. Like today, many farmers had no interest in reading about, trying, or discovering better more sustainable ways. Most of it wasn't profitable for the vet and or pharma companies so was pushed aside. I can't believe how farmers bought into the lies even from the 50's when pasture was still tought by universities. It doesn't take long for ignorance to prevail. Ever read about baby Jesus and the essential oils the Wisemen brought? Those people weren't stupid. If they knew the power of the oils 2000 yrs ago do you suppose they just let their animals die? I don't! Cheyenne > > List what the heck you are talking about??? Because the dewormers we > use around here- Synanthic, Ivomec, Valbazen, Cydectin, Safeguard, > Panacure, are NOT 'highly toxic!' > Death of livestock is pretty darned natural. But, I sure don't wish > to have it as a part of my parasite control program! You might want > to go take a time machine ride on back there in that dream time you > make reference about, because animals and people DID NOT survive, > that's just it! I am ancient enough to remember what it was like > back in those 'good old days' before safe, effective dewormers. I > also was blessed to have my grandparents (born in late 1890s) and > great grand mother (born 1870s) to be my mentors in farming. They > related in very vivid details what it was like 'in the good old > days'... it wasn't all good, either. Not by a long shot. Worms > killed not only animals but PEOPLE, too. > > Donna > Safehaven Nubians > Dandridge, TN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 <Ivomec is an organophosphate. It is horribly poisonous.> This is not true. None of the avermectins and fenbendazoles are organophosphates. Neither is levisole. *~*~* Jo & Pete *~*~* @ " Laudo Deum " Farm kinderfolk_n_liddlebuds@... Raising quality Kinder and Nigerian Dwarf goats for small acreage farmers, homesteaders and families with young children. (And producing natural soaps for humans and animals.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 We use a great product from www.holistichorse.com It is an all natural wormer that has flax seed oil and probiotics as well. Love it! It's a bit pricey but we feel the cost is worth it, especially given that we have limited pasture. Chisholm Devon Dairy and Farm Calhoun, GA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Do you do stool checks to check the reliability of your wormer? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 What species are you deworming? Are you using fecals to check to see if what you are using is effective? What is the active ingredient? Donna Safehaven Nubians Dandridge, TN > > We use a great product from www.holistichorse.com It is an all natural > wormer that has flax seed oil and probiotics as well. Love it! It's a bit > pricey but we feel the cost is worth it, especially given that we have > limited pasture. > > Chisholm > Devon Dairy and Farm > Calhoun, GA > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Again, what dewormers are you talking about? ANY dewormer, 'natural' or otherwise, has got to be TOXIC to the parasites or it won't do any good! Anyone making claims of effectiveness needs to have the fecal samples done to back that up! And, it's going to matter where you live and how you manage. If you have six goats on 30 acres of brush and not any grass to graze??? Then you won't have any parasite problem to speak of LOL. Those same six goats on two acres of grass here in east TN??? You are going to need to deworm quite often. We use cattle behind our goats to help break up the lifecycle of many of the parasites. But, we also have and abundant white tail deer population so we have menegeal worms that have to be prevented by regular use of ivomec. Donna Safehaven Nubians Dandridge, TN > > > > I don't mean for this to sound confrontational. Would you rather have > > the farmer tell you " I had to worm them once last year " or hear " they > > have worms, do you still want the beef? " > > > > All cows have worms. Managing the load is the challenge. > > Increasing the amount of copper in in their diet seems to help. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 I do fecals on the goats several times a year and use FAMANCHA every week. Only when the symptoms indicate need do I deworm. But, around here, on average, that's about every 30 to 45 days from about April through July. If we have normal weather I can often get by without deworming the adults from July to late October. Adults get another deworming in January. The cows are a whole 'nother story being quite fine on twice a year deworming in spring and fall. And, I do not understand where some think ANYONE enjoys having to work animals to do procedures like deworming???? Obviously those same people have never had the day in and day out animal caretaking responsiblities and expenses! The least anyone can get by with doing and the least it costs makes the MOST SENSE! Farmers are not stupid and are quite capable of catching on to new and better ways to do things. Doing fecals egg counts on a regular basis is something I highly recomend for any livestock producers. But, especially for those depending upon 'natural' products. Often downed animals and dead animals are your first indications that your dewormer is not working if you are not doing fecals and FAMANCHA. Be aware though, that fecals check only for eggs. Immature parasites don't shed any eggs. Encysted L4 stage of haemonchus (barberpole worm) will become active after you have dewormed and removed the active parasites. The active parasites actually secrete a marker that signals the encysted ones to stay put. Once that marker is no longer present, the encysted ones become active. But, since they are not mature egg layers, they won't give you any indication of being present, except kill your goat/sheep. This is why in heavily burdened animals you need to use either Synanthic, which has a long enough half life to kill even encysted L4 or wait and deworm again ten days after the first deworming. This needs to be done about every six months to control the encysted L4 stage of barberpole worm. It works best for me to do this the day a doe kids, wait ten days, deworm again, and then just before I breed her in the fall. On average that works out to about six months between these dewormings. Something that is often not discussed in depth or even at all is the danger that tapeworms pose to young kids and lambs. Because the lumen of their intestinal tract is so much smaller than an adult's they can literally become clogged by masses of tapeworms. These tapes are not the same as the flea/dog/cat tape, but instead use a pasture mite/snail/slug host cycle. Each year around here we also hear more about the deer menegeal worm causing losses in goats and llamas. So far I have not heard of any affected cattle. Donna Safehaven Nubians Dandridge, TN > > Do you do stool checks to check the reliability of your wormer? > Chris > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 I'm not that far from Donna and worm about twice a year. There's no way I'd want to be drinking milk from animals fed chemicals as often as 30 to 45 days. Most often the problem is space. If the goats are on a small area/feed lot then worming often is probably necessary. We are lucky in that our goats have plenty of browse available and worms aren't that much of a problem. Belinda > > I do fecals on the goats several times a year and use FAMANCHA > every week. Only when the symptoms indicate need do I deworm. But, > around here, on average, that's about every 30 to 45 days from about > April through July. If we have normal weather I can often get by > without deworming the adults from July to late October. Adults get > another deworming in January. The cows are a whole 'nother story > being quite fine on twice a year deworming in spring and fall. > And, I do not understand where some think ANYONE enjoys having to > work animals to do procedures like deworming???? Obviously those same > people have never had the day in and day out animal caretaking > responsiblities and expenses! The least anyone can get by with doing > and the least it costs makes the MOST SENSE! Farmers are not stupid > and are quite capable of catching on to new and better ways to do > things. > Doing fecals egg counts on a regular basis is something I highly > recomend for any livestock producers. But, especially for those > depending upon 'natural' products. Often downed animals and dead > animals are your first indications that your dewormer is not working > if you are not doing fecals and FAMANCHA. > Be aware though, that fecals check only for eggs. Immature > parasites don't shed any eggs. Encysted L4 stage of haemonchus > (barberpole worm) will become active after you have dewormed and > removed the active parasites. The active parasites actually secrete a > marker that signals the encysted ones to stay put. Once that marker > is no longer present, the encysted ones become active. But, since > they are not mature egg layers, they won't give you any indication of > being present, except kill your goat/sheep. > This is why in heavily burdened animals you need to use either > Synanthic, which has a long enough half life to kill even encysted L4 > or wait and deworm again ten days after the first deworming. This > needs to be done about every six months to control the encysted L4 > stage of barberpole worm. It works best for me to do this the day a > doe kids, wait ten days, deworm again, and then just before I breed > her in the fall. On average that works out to about six months > between these dewormings. > Something that is often not discussed in depth or even at all is > the danger that tapeworms pose to young kids and lambs. Because the > lumen of their intestinal tract is so much smaller than an adult's > they can literally become clogged by masses of tapeworms. These tapes > are not the same as the flea/dog/cat tape, but instead use a pasture > mite/snail/slug host cycle. > Each year around here we also hear more about the deer menegeal > worm causing losses in goats and llamas. So far I have not heard of > any affected cattle. > > Donna > Safehaven Nubians > Dandridge, TN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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