Re: asp/pen levels outdoors

[Guest guest]

Alice, I believe the questions that you are trying to ask is whether those indoor Asp/Pen spores came from outdoor. Or, is there an indoor mold growth (source)? (1) Asp/Pen-LIKE spores is a BIG GROUP of hundreds of species. (2) Outdoor Asp/Pen (or total) level could vary greatly even from day to day. Comparing your indoor (or outdoor) data to an "average range" of very variable numbers can only give you limited information. Traditional spore counting can only identify spores based on fungal taxonomy. As such, identification at a species level is usually impossible. Spores are combined into a group when it is impossible to identify to a genus level, e.g. Aspergillus/Penicillium (Asp/Pen)-like spores. As a result, people may be misled to think that there is no difference between the spore counts of their indoor and outdoor samples. For instance, the Asp/Pen-like spores in an indoor sample could be small with a smooth cell wall, while the Asp/Pen spores in the outdoor sample are large with a rough cell wall. This signifies that they are not from the same fungal colony. Traditional spore counting does not point out this difference. Advance spore trap analyses are being offered by at least two labs to help people to answer that question. Asp/Pen and Cladosporium spores are being sorted into different groups (not

based on fungal taxonomy) to help to distinguish their possible different origins. To keep this forum as informational discussion, please go see the following websites for details. (1) Cladosporium and Pen/Asp analytical supplement by EMLab http://www.emlab.com/app/services/Services.po?event=analysis & type=216 (If this link doesn't work, try to search "Cladosporium and Pen/Asp analytical supplement" on their home page.) http://www.emlab.com/ (2) Spore Signature Analysis by QLAB http://www.qlabusa.com/spore_signature.html Wei Tang QLAB "Freund, Alice" wrote: I was asked to comment on a report of mold levels of asp/pen outdoors of 1700 and 2600 counts/m3 (total count is 3300 and 2100, respectively, with remainder being mostly Cladosporium) in gulf coast area. Two samples inside the house are around 700 (total count around 1500). The total counts seem low to me; the asp/pen seems slightly elevated, but I dont know what is typical for asp/pen in that area. I have seen the NRDC results which show some very high levels in New Orleans. I dont know if those levels have persisted. If anyone has any expertise in this area, I would appreciate you contacting me on or off the listserve. Thank you.Alice

Freundalice.freund@... Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab Director QLAB5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLABusa.com

[Guest guest]

In the (admittedly few) times I've been involved with air testing, the 'background' asp/pen levels outdoors were orders of magnitude lower.And stachy was undetectable outdoors (however 3000+ cfu/m

3 in my BR)The building industry must be *overjoyed* at those figures... which probably reflect the aftermath of Katrina's destruction (and Nature's response)just curious, what are typical particle counts? My particle counts were very high. (semi-urbanized area in CA)

For what it is worth.....I have sampled the air in Sacramento, CA in Apriland have found outdoor concentrations of Pen/Asp as high as 3987/6023-s/m3respectively, with total spore counts as high as 21,530-s/m3; the majority

being Cladosporium. Interestingly, Stachybotryus is often present at 300 to400-s/m3; which I believe is representative of the surrounding agricultureand rice production. Needless to say, if you have allergies, Sacramento, CA

is not the place to be in the spring time.-- Geyer, PE, CIH, CSPPresidentKENTEC Industries, Inc.Bakersfield, Californiawww.kerntecindustries.com

[Guest guest]

Wei Tang

Thank you. Its good to know about the labs differentiating the various species of asp/pen.

We already know that there is a mold source indoors. There is visible mold from a roof leak and swab samples show high levels of alternaria, and no asp/pen. there is already a plan to remediate the leaks and visibly damaged materials. Its more a question of whether the outdoor levels are unusually high and are a source for the indoor levels.

Alice

Re: asp/pen levels outdoors

Alice,

I believe the questions that you are trying to ask is whether those indoor Asp/Pen spores came from outdoor. Or, is there an indoor mold growth (source)?

(1) Asp/Pen-LIKE spores is a BIG GROUP of hundreds of species.

(2) Outdoor Asp/Pen (or total) level could vary greatly even from day to day. Comparing your indoor (or outdoor) data to an " average range " of very variable numbers can only give you limited information.

Traditional spore counting can only identify spores based on fungal taxonomy. As such, identification at a species level is usually impossible. Spores are combined into a group when it is impossible to identify to a genus level, e.g. Aspergillus/Penicillium (Asp/Pen)-like spores. As a result, people may be misled to think that there is no difference between the spore counts of their indoor and outdoor samples.

For instance, the Asp/Pen-like spores in an indoor sample could be small with a smooth cell wall, while the Asp/Pen spores in the outdoor sample are large with a rough cell wall. This signifies that they are not from the same fungal colony. Traditional spore counting does not point out this difference.

Advance spore trap analyses are being offered by at least two labs to help people to answer that question. Asp/Pen and Cladosporium spores are being sorted into different groups (not based on fungal taxonomy) to help to distinguish their possible different origins. To keep this forum as informational discussion, please go see the following websites for details.

(1) Cladosporium and Pen/Asp analytical supplement by EMLab

http://www.emlab.com/app/services/Services.po?event=analysis&type=216

(If this link doesn't work, try to search " Cladosporium and Pen/Asp analytical supplement " on their home page.)

http://www.emlab.com/

(2) Spore Signature Analysis by QLAB

http://www.qlabusa.com/spore_signature.html

Wei Tang

QLAB

" Freund, Alice " wrote:

I was asked to comment on a report of mold levels of asp/pen outdoors of 1700 and 2600 counts/m3 (total count is 3300 and 2100, respectively, with remainder being mostly Cladosporium) in gulf coast area. Two samples inside the house are around 700 (total count around 1500). The total counts seem low to me; the asp/pen seems slightly elevated, but I dont know what is typical for asp/pen in that area. I have seen the NRDC results which show some very high levels in New Orleans. I dont know if those levels have persisted. If anyone has any expertise in this area, I would appreciate you contacting me on or off the listserve. Thank you.

Alice Freund

alice.freund@...

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[Guest guest]

,

Where on AAAAI.org exactly did/does it

show low levels of mold or asp/pen on the Gulf Coast?

N. Walsh

Louisiana State University

Health & Safety Officer

twalsh@...

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Dotson

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 8:15

PM

To: iequality

Cc: 'Galvez, Maida'

Subject: RE: asp/pen

levels outdoors

Go look at aaaai.org. You have low levels

for the gulf coast.

B. Dotson, CIH,

CSP, DEE

asp/pen

levels outdoors

I was

asked to comment on a report of mold levels of asp/pen outdoors of 1700 and

2600 counts/m3 (total count is 3300 and 2100, respectively, with remainder

being mostly Cladosporium) in gulf coast area. Two samples inside the house are

around 700 (total count around 1500). The total counts seem low to me; the

asp/pen seems slightly elevated, but I dont know what is typical for asp/pen in

that area. I have seen the NRDC results which show some very high levels in New

Orleans. I dont know if those levels have persisted. If anyone has any

expertise in this area, I would appreciate you contacting me on or off the

listserve. Thank you.

Alice Freund

alice.freund@...

[Guest guest]

The National Allergy Bureau™ (NAB™) is the section of the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology's (AAAAI) Aeroallergen Network that is responsible for reporting current pollen and mold spore levels to the public. The Aeroallergen Network is comprised of pollen and spore counting stations staffed primarily by AAAAI member volunteers who generously donate their time and expertise. The NAB currently provides the most accurate and reliable pollen and mold counts from approximately 78 counting stations throughout the United States and three counting stations in Canada.

Look at www.aaaai.org/nab. These are the average concentrations of mold spores as exposed to all of us by mother nature.

B. Dotson, CIH, CSP, DEE

asp/pen levels outdoors

I was asked to comment on a report of mold levels of asp/pen outdoors of 1700 and 2600 counts/m3 (total count is 3300 and 2100, respectively, with remainder being mostly Cladosporium) in gulf coast area. Two samples inside the house are around 700 (total count around 1500). The total counts seem low to me; the asp/pen seems slightly elevated, but I dont know what is typical for asp/pen in that area. I have seen the NRDC results which show some very high levels in New Orleans. I dont know if those levels have persisted. If anyone has any expertise in this area, I would appreciate you contacting me on or off the listserve. Thank you.Alice Freundalice.freund@...

[Guest guest]

,

I’m very familiar

with AAAAI and I subscribe to their email notification service. The last AAAAI report at the only site in

LA (Baton Rouge) was on 4/19, and mold wasn't counted? In fact 75% of the time

or more, only pollen is counted. I think this is because spore counting is a

tedious and time-consuming task. Houston and Tallahassee are the only other

Gulf Coast sites and mold counts are often not done/reported there either. I guess

I’m wondering how you come up with “low levels for the gulf coast

statement”.

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Dotson

Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006

9:36 AM

To: iequality

Subject: RE: asp/pen

levels outdoors

The National Allergy Bureau™ (NAB™)

is the section of the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology's

(AAAAI) Aeroallergen Network that is responsible for reporting current pollen

and mold spore levels to the public.

The

Aeroallergen Network is comprised of pollen and spore counting stations staffed

primarily by AAAAI member volunteers who

generously donate their time and expertise. The NAB currently provides the most

accurate and reliable pollen and mold counts from approximately 78 counting stations

throughout the United States and three counting stations in Canada.

Look at www.aaaai.org/nab. These are the average

concentrations of mold spores as exposed to all of us by mother nature.

B. Dotson, CIH,

CSP, DEE

asp/pen

levels outdoors

I was

asked to comment on a report of mold levels of asp/pen outdoors of 1700 and

2600 counts/m3 (total count is 3300 and 2100, respectively, with remainder

being mostly Cladosporium) in gulf coast area. Two samples inside the house are

around 700 (total count around 1500). The total counts seem low to me; the

asp/pen seems slightly elevated, but I dont know what is typical for asp/pen in

that area. I have seen the NRDC results which show some very high levels in New

Orleans. I dont know if those levels have persisted. If anyone has any

expertise in this area, I would appreciate you contacting me on or off the

listserve. Thank you.

Alice Freund

alice.freund@...

[Guest guest]

Houston didn't have info for today, but there was a Mold count for yesterday. My experience was that the Houston and College Station stations count mold often if not every time. But its immaterial as what you are looking for is a general range of what is present in an area of the country. And I measured 5000 more times than not outside in Houston. And 10K to 20K regularly in the allergy seasons.

So don't think you need to get todays count or even this weeks. Just go to the link called Using the Counts. Here is the chart that appears.

NAB SCALE

* MOLD

0

Absent

1 - 6499

Low

6500 - 12999

Moderate

13000 - 49999

High

>50000

Very High

GRASS

0

Absent

1 - 4

Low

5 - 19

Moderate

20 - 199

High

>200

Very High

TREE

0

Absent

1 - 14

Low

15 - 89

Moderate

90 - 1499

High

>1500

Very High

WEED

0

Absent

1 - 9

Low

10 - 49

Moderate

50 - 499

High

>500

Very High

Now, I know the disclaimer that appears below this chart; about don't use it indoors because that MIGHT be different spore types. This disclaimer is nice for aaaai to say because they are good scientists and they don't want to opine on the indoor environment while they are measuring the outdoor environment. But we all know or should know that we all find Asp/Pen indoors all the time and those that speciate know that lots are the same species. The harsh reality for those who would opine that 5000 is high is well, the air outside is not particularly deadly, and comes inside due to, well, physics. Where the spores settle, due to, well, physics. It has been my experience that the ratio material in the IH books work well; as long as you don't go extrapolating down into numbers below the sampling error; which I found many sampling technicians to do regularily. But thats a different post. Best regards -

B. Dotson, CIH, CSP, DEE

asp/pen levels outdoors

I was asked to comment on a report of mold levels of asp/pen outdoors of 1700 and 2600 counts/m3 (total count is 3300 and 2100, respectively, with remainder being mostly Cladosporium) in gulf coast area. Two samples inside the house are around 700 (total count around 1500). The total counts seem low to me; the asp/pen seems slightly elevated, but I dont know what is typical for asp/pen in that area. I have seen the NRDC results which show some very high levels in New Orleans. I dont know if those levels have persisted. If anyone has any expertise in this area, I would appreciate you contacting me on or off the listserve. Thank you.Alice Freundalice.freund@...

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

This is kind of off topic of what you all are discussing, but

"we all know or should know that we all find Asp/Pen indoors all the time and those that speciate know that lots are the same species."

If the building has sustained mold growth from water damage, are there different species of Aspergillis and Penicillium that are present that are not typically in the outdoor air? In others words, are there lots that are not the same species?

Common species of mold

Thanks,

Sharon

[Guest guest]

I would be cautious about directly applying the AAAAI table and

interpretive guidelines.

The AAAAI data are based on 24 hour burkhardt samples and consequently

are biased by night time sporulators.

Since most people take 5 minute AOC during the day, the AAAAI tables

need to be adjusted to daytime sampling distributions. The data to

this can be found in EMLabs book and also the Fienberg data from the

1930s-1940s and Miquel's from 1879.

Based on these daytime outdoor sampling data, we show the adjusted

AAAAI tables in the mold and bacteria standards book. Note: AAAAI data

prior to 1992 was done by Rotorod and are not comparable.

Bob

[Guest guest]

I called EMLabs to obtain this book. They do not sell any book with mold levels,

according to the marketing person who contacted me. He told me if I used his

labs I'd get the outdoor levels in my area at the time of sampling. He said

EMlabs will not make the data public because then they wouldnt be able to sell

their services as easily.

Re: asp/pen levels outdoors

I would be cautious about directly applying the AAAAI table and

interpretive guidelines.

The AAAAI data are based on 24 hour burkhardt samples and consequently

are biased by night time sporulators.

Since most people take 5 minute AOC during the day, the AAAAI tables

need to be adjusted to daytime sampling distributions. The data to

this can be found in EMLabs book and also the Fienberg data from the

1930s-1940s and Miquel's from 1879.

Based on these daytime outdoor sampling data, we show the adjusted

AAAAI tables in the mold and bacteria standards book. Note: AAAAI data

prior to 1992 was done by Rotorod and are not comparable.

Bob

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been

specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material

available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political,

human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc.

We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as

provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17

U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to

those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information

for research and educational purposes. For more information go to:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted

material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you

must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

Alice,

Call EMLab and ask them for their " IAQ pocket reference guide. " The

mold spore levels are in the book. They give them away for free.

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob and Alice, Bob is correct.  Tables of outdoor mold levels for many states and by month are available in our Pocket Guide.  We give away to anyone who asks.  If you have any questions feel free to give me a call at the number below.As Bob pointed out, we have worked hard to create data that is representative of the conditions that IAQ/IEQ professionals experience in the field.Dave A. Bell, PresidentEnvironmental Microbiology Laboratory, Inc.650 742-8103