Re: Thermal imaging for moisture detection

April 4, 2006

I use q FLIR camera. It has a dew point

setting so it can be adjusted to find condensation via colour or alarm. Finds thermal

breaks and bridges which is most useful. Although it cost me around $18,000 it

is not that sensitive and if you want to inspect insulation and small

differences in temperature I would recommend the more expensive range up in the

$40,000 range. The cheaper the camera the less definition.

Overall I use the camera as a first choice to find suspect areas followed by

ultrasonics to measure. One of my services is leak detection although not

always successful it can become a problem when people don’t want to pay

because leaks cannot be found. Typically I recently used the camera for

inspecting a sub floor heating system. Poor insulation gave similar readings to

leakage and they might as well just dug up all the

floor. Biggest complaint is that after buying the camera and being given a half

day training course by the agent I could not use the tool. I needed to go on a

four day residential training course to become a level 1 thermographer.

Basically the readings from IR cameras have to be analysed professionally

although simple cameras may suffice.

Jeff Charlton

www.disasteradvice.co.uk

..

-----Original

Message-----

From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ] On Behalf

Of Steve Carlson

Sent: 03 April 2006 17:45

To: iequality

Subject: Thermal

imaging for moisture detection

Hi all, I need to hear some feedback from those of you

who have used

thermal imaging cameras for moisture detection in

buildings. Primarily

I am interested in the pitfalls and limitations of

the testing, and

also what you see as the liabilities of the business.

Thanks,

Steve Carlson

Liesch Associates, Inc.

April 4, 2006

What is a "level 1 thermographer"?

Is that a

government certification or license (recognizing you are in the UK)?

Are there

certification programs for this in the US?

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

Thermal

imaging for moisture detection

Hi all, I need to hear some

feedback from those of you who have used

thermal imaging cameras for moisture detection in

buildings. Primarily

I am interested in the pitfalls and limitations of

the testing, and

also what you see as the liabilities of the

business.

Thanks,

Steve Carlson

Liesch Associates, Inc.

April 4, 2006

The level 1 is I believe an International

certification.

Jeff

-----Original

Message-----

From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ] On Behalf

Of Carlson

Sent: 04 April

2006 16:59

To: 'iequality '

Subject: RE: Thermal

imaging for moisture detection

What is a " level 1 thermographer " ?

Is that a government certification or

license (recognizing you are in the UK)?

Are there certification programs for

this in the US?

D. Carlson,

CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates,

Inc.

-----Original

Message-----

From: J Charlton

Sent: Tuesday,

April 04, 2006

1:12

AM

To: iequality

Subject: RE: Thermal imaging

for moisture detection

I use q

FLIR camera. It has a dew point setting so it can be adjusted to find

condensation via colour or alarm. Finds thermal breaks and bridges which is

most useful. Although it cost me around $18,000 it is not that sensitive and if

you want to inspect insulation and small differences in temperature I would

recommend the more expensive range up in the $40,000 range. The cheaper the

camera the less definition. Overall I use the camera as a first choice to find

suspect areas followed by ultrasonics to measure. One of my services is leak

detection although not always successful it can become a problem when people

don't want to pay because leaks cannot be found. Typically I recently used the

camera for inspecting a sub floor heating system. Poor insulation gave similar

readings to leakage and they might as well just dug up all the floor. Biggest

complaint is that after buying the camera and being given a half day training

course by the agent I could not use the tool. I needed to go on a four day

residential training course to become a level 1 thermographer. Basically the

readings from IR cameras have to be analysed professionally although simple

cameras may suffice.

Jeff

Charlton

www.disasteradvice.co.uk

..

-----Original

Message-----

From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ] On Behalf

Of Steve Carlson

Sent: 03 April

2006 17:45

To: iequality

Subject: Thermal imaging

for moisture detection

Hi all, I need to hear some feedback from those of you

who have used

thermal imaging cameras for moisture detection in

buildings. Primarily

I am interested in the pitfalls and limitations of

the testing, and

also what you see as the liabilities of the

business.

Thanks,

Steve Carlson

Liesch Associates, Inc.

April 4, 2006

Steve,

Mike is right on. An infrared camera will detect differences in thermal

loading (temperature), not moisture. We have been utilizing infrared

cameras for several years in building diagnostics. It works great in energy

loss analysis, but it creates many questions when you try to use it to

analyze for potential moisture intrusion issues. Those anomalies need to be

followed up with moisture testing within the wall cavity.

In our market here in the Minneapolis area, we see too many stucco

contractors and home inspectors waving infrared cameras at the exterior of

homes and pointing out where the water is. These people have bought the

camera but neglected to take the training on how to really use the camera

and to analyze the results. These cameras are fantastic to use when you

have been trained on their proper uses as well as their short comings, not

to mention all the weather related conditions that need to be adhered to.

One of the best training programs we have seen is at Snell Infrared. If you

decide to purchase a camera, talk to these people and get properly trained.

We can always use more properly trained and educated people in the field of

building diagnostics.

If you are really interested, give me a call and I will take you out on a

couple of projects to show you how it works.

Good Luck,

Wayne Shellabarger

Principal/Engineer

Acuity Engineers, Inc.

Chanhassen, MN.

Re: Thermal imaging for moisture detection

> Steve:

>

> I have been using thermal imaging for years. It is a great diagnostic

> tool

> to determine the thermal performance (or thermal overload) on many

> things -

> structures and/or machinery. I've also used them to find locations of

> geothermal sources, underground fires, and methamphetamine labs. However,

> one thing they cannot do is detect moisture; and if anybody thinks so,

> they

> sorely mistaken and have opened a big liability for themselves. I've even

> heard some users of thermal imaging devices stating that it will find

> mold...BS! Thermal imaging detects differences in temperature - period!

> What that temperature difference means can be a gold mine of information,

> and it could indicate moisture, but it does not detect moisture. A nuance

> of terms...yes, but a very important nuance.

>

> Portable thermal imaging cameras were once (10-yrs ago) very expensive and

> only in gray scale, unless you were willing to spend upwards of $30K for

> still shots and $50K for video. Have times changed! A good portable

> camera

> that can take both digital color-enhanced IR and visible pictures (side by

> side), is now less than $15K. These are great tools in skilled hands and

> they are easy to use too. I often use an IR camera to determine thermal

> performance of building assemblies, and I used them during mold

> remediation

> efforts when we use heat to dry-out moisture and kill biologicals - it

> helps

> with efficacy studies. If you are serious regarding IR cameras, take a

> class from the manufacture or mfg. rep. before going in the field with

> one.

> You will have a blast! FLUKE just purchase a west coast manufacturer of a

> good quality IR camera and it has their label on it. Can't go wrong with

> FLUKE's equipment.

>

> For what it is worth....

>

> --

> Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

> President

> KENTEC Industries, Inc.

> Bakersfield, California

> www.kerntecindustries.com

>

>> Hi all, I need to hear some feedback from those of you who have used

>> thermal imaging cameras for moisture detection in buildings. Primarily

>> I am interested in the pitfalls and limitations of the testing, and

>> also what you see as the liabilities of the business.

>>

>> Thanks,

>> Steve Carlson

>> Liesch Associates, Inc.

>>

>

> This E-mail scanned for spam and viruses by ATG Internet.

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

> This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always

> been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such

> material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

> environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific,

> and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use'

> of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US

> Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the

> material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have

> expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for

> research and educational purposes. For more information go to:

> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use

> copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go

> beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

>

April 4, 2006

I apologize if someone said this already. Mold growth is a results of a "history" of water/moisture problem. When water dries up, mold is still there, but there is no moisture to detect anymore. Moisture meter and thermal camera can help with mold investigation, but they can not replace visual inspection and sampling for lab analysis. Wei Tang QLAB Wayne Shellabarger wrote: Steve,Mike is right on. An infrared camera will detect differences in thermal loading (temperature), not moisture. We have been utilizing infrared cameras for several years in building diagnostics. It works great in energy loss analysis, but it creates many questions when you try to use it to analyze for potential

moisture intrusion issues. Those anomalies need to be followed up with moisture testing within the wall cavity.In our market here in the Minneapolis area, we see too many stucco contractors and home inspectors waving infrared cameras at the exterior of homes and pointing out where the water is. These people have bought the camera but neglected to take the training on how to really use the camera and to analyze the results. These cameras are fantastic to use when you have been trained on their proper uses as well as their short comings, not to mention all the weather related conditions that need to be adhered to.One of the best training programs we have seen is at Snell Infrared. If you decide to purchase a camera, talk to these people and get properly trained. We can always use more properly trained and educated people in the field of building diagnostics.If you are really interested, give me a call and I will take you

out on a couple of projects to show you how it works.Good Luck,Wayne ShellabargerPrincipal/EngineerAcuity Engineers, Inc.Chanhassen, MN. Re: Thermal imaging for moisture detection> Steve:>> I have been using thermal imaging for years. It is a great diagnostic > tool> to determine the thermal performance (or thermal overload) on many > things -> structures and/or machinery. I've also used them to find locations of> geothermal sources, underground fires, and methamphetamine labs. However,> one thing they cannot do is detect moisture; and if anybody thinks so, > they> sorely mistaken and have opened a big liability for themselves. I've even> heard some users of thermal imaging devices

stating that it will find> mold...BS! Thermal imaging detects differences in temperature - period!> What that temperature difference means can be a gold mine of information,> and it could indicate moisture, but it does not detect moisture. A nuance> of terms...yes, but a very important nuance.>> Portable thermal imaging cameras were once (10-yrs ago) very expensive and> only in gray scale, unless you were willing to spend upwards of $30K for> still shots and $50K for video. Have times changed! A good portable > camera> that can take both digital color-enhanced IR and visible pictures (side by> side), is now less than $15K. These are great tools in skilled hands and> they are easy to use too. I often use an IR camera to determine thermal> performance of building assemblies, and I used them during mold > remediation> efforts when we use heat to dry-out moisture and kill biologicals

- it > helps> with efficacy studies. If you are serious regarding IR cameras, take a> class from the manufacture or mfg. rep. before going in the field with > one.> You will have a blast! FLUKE just purchase a west coast manufacturer of a> good quality IR camera and it has their label on it. Can't go wrong with> FLUKE's equipment.>> For what it is worth....>> -- > Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP> President> KENTEC Industries, Inc.> Bakersfield, California> www.kerntecindustries.com>>>>> >>> Hi all, I need to hear some feedback from those of you who have used>> thermal imaging cameras for moisture detection in buildings. Primarily>> I am interested in the pitfalls and limitations of the testing, and>> also what you see as the

liabilities of the business.>>>> Thanks,>> Steve Carlson>> Liesch Associates, Inc.>>>>>>>>>>> This E-mail scanned for spam and viruses by ATG Internet.>>>>>>> FAIR USE NOTICE:>> This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always > been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such > material available in our efforts to advance understanding of > environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, > and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' > of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US > Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the > material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have >

expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for > research and educational purposes. For more information go to: > http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use > copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go > beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.>

April 5, 2006

Perhaps I should

have said "detection of indications of

moisture"...I am aware of the general principle of thermal imaging,

but I know for almost any instrument there are pitfalls and limitations in real

world use.

Thanks Wayne, I may just

take you up on that.

D. Carlson, CIAQC, CMRS

Liesch Associates, Inc.

Re: Thermal

imaging for moisture detection

Steve,

Mike is right on. An infrared camera will

detect differences in thermal

loading (temperature), not moisture. We have

been utilizing infrared

cameras for several years in building

diagnostics. It works great in energy

loss analysis, but it creates many questions when

you try to use it to

analyze for potential moisture intrusion

issues. Those anomalies need to be

followed up with moisture testing within the wall

cavity.

In our market here in the Minneapolis area, we see

too many stucco

contractors and home inspectors waving infrared

cameras at the exterior of

homes and pointing out where the water is.

These people have bought the

camera but neglected to take the training on how

to really use the camera

and to analyze the results. These cameras

are fantastic to use when you

have been trained on their proper uses as well as

their short comings, not

to mention all the weather related conditions that

need to be adhered to.

One of the best training programs we have seen is

at Snell Infrared. If you

decide to purchase a camera, talk to these people

and get properly trained.

We can always use more properly trained and

educated people in the field of

building diagnostics.

If you are really interested, give me a call and I

will take you out on a

couple of projects to show you how it works.

Good Luck,

Wayne Shellabarger

Principal/Engineer

Acuity Engineers, Inc.

Chanhassen, MN.

Re: Thermal imaging for

moisture detection

> Steve:

>

> I have been using thermal imaging for

years. It is a great diagnostic

> tool

> to determine the thermal performance (or

thermal overload) on many

> things -

> structures and/or machinery. I've also

used them to find locations of

> geothermal sources, underground fires, and

methamphetamine labs. However,

> one thing they cannot do is detect moisture;

and if anybody thinks so,

> they

> sorely mistaken and have opened a big liability

for themselves. I've even

> heard some users of thermal imaging devices

stating that it will find

> mold...BS! Thermal imaging detects

differences in temperature - period!

> What that temperature difference means can be

a gold mine of information,

> and it could indicate moisture, but it does

not detect moisture. A nuance

> of terms...yes, but a very important nuance.

>

> Portable thermal imaging cameras were once

(10-yrs ago) very expensive and

> only in gray scale, unless you were willing

to spend upwards of $30K for

> still shots and $50K for video. Have

times changed! A good portable

> camera

> that can take both digital color-enhanced IR

and visible pictures (side by

> side), is now less than $15K. These are

great tools in skilled hands and

> they are easy to use too. I often use

an IR camera to determine thermal

> performance of building assemblies, and I

used them during mold

> remediation

> efforts when we use heat to dry-out moisture

and kill biologicals - it

> helps

> with efficacy studies. If you are

serious regarding IR cameras, take a

> class from the manufacture or mfg. rep.

before going in the field with

> one.

> You will have a blast! FLUKE just

purchase a west coast manufacturer of a

> good quality IR camera and it has their label

on it. Can't go wrong with

> FLUKE's equipment.

>

> For what it is worth....

>

> --

> Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

> President

> KENTEC Industries, Inc.

> Bakersfield, California

> www.kerntecindustries.com

>

> On 4/3/06 9:44 AM, " Steve Carlson "

wrote:

>

>> Hi all, I need to hear some feedback from

those of you who have used

>> thermal imaging cameras for moisture

detection in buildings. Primarily

>> I am interested in the pitfalls and

limitations of the testing, and

>> also what you see as the liabilities of

the business.

>>

>> Thanks,

>> Steve Carlson

>> Liesch Associates, Inc.

>>

>

> This E-mail scanned for spam and viruses by

ATG Internet.

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

> This site contains copyrighted material the

use of which has not always

> been specifically authorized by the copyright

owner. We are making such

> material available in our efforts to advance

understanding of

> environmental, political, human rights,

economic, democracy, scientific,

> and social justice issues, etc. We believe

this constitutes a 'fair use'

> of any such copyrighted material as provided

for in section 107 of the US

> Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17

U.S.C. Section 107, the

> material on this site is distributed without

profit to those who have

> expressed a prior interest in receiving the

included information for

> research and educational purposes. For more

information go to:

> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use

> copyrighted material from this site for

purposes of your own that go

> beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission

from the copyright owner.

>

April 5, 2006

Steve, Wayne and Mike have provided great info for you. I first used

IR about 12 years ago for diagnostics. Equipment and training have

advanced. Qualified training is a MUST and will help keep you out of

trouble. As has been pointed out, IR does not detect water or mold,

but may be useful in identifying suspect areas for further examination.

>

> Hi all, I need to hear some feedback from those of you who have used

> thermal imaging cameras for moisture detection in buildings.

Primarily

> I am interested in the pitfalls and limitations of the testing, and

> also what you see as the liabilities of the business.

>

> Thanks,

> Steve Carlson

> Liesch Associates, Inc.

>

April 5, 2006

Group:

Many great comments from everyone, I have learned so much

from everyone over the years! As it is with anything else, the cameras

can be a very useful tool if someone has been trained to use them correctly.

Just think of how many projects you’ve been involved in where a gung-ho

home inspector (no offense intended) with a moisture meter made false claims of

moisture being present, because they didn’t understand how the tool

worked or it’s limitations. The same can be said of any “tool

of our trade.” Training being the key.

I don’t personally own one, but have been involved

in many projects where they were incredibly useful, and helped to answer some

very valid questions. One of the more useful applications I’ve seen

them used for is understanding energy loss, which in our current state of

affairs is extremely important.

To invest in one for the primary purpose of discovering

moisture (or mold, which would be impossible) seems like a waste of money in my

opinion, and your money would be better spent on a stack of building science

and moisture diagnostic books so that you had a better grasp of what to look

for in terms of building failure when performing assessments. How an HVAC

system is designed and sealed plays a major role in IAQ (of which I still have

a ton to learn about,) and the cameras seem to be very useful in this regard,

along with blower door testing and duct blasting.

There are only so many hours in the day…

Stacey Champion

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Wei Tang

Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 7:41

PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Thermal

imaging for moisture detection

I apologize if someone said this already.

Mold growth is a results of a " history " of water/moisture

problem. When water dries up, mold is still there, but

there is no moisture to detect anymore. Moisture meter and thermal camera

can help with mold investigation, but they can not replace visual

inspection and sampling for lab analysis.

Wei Tang

QLAB

Wayne Shellabarger

wrote:

Steve,

Mike is right on. An infrared camera will detect differences in thermal

loading (temperature), not moisture. We have been utilizing infrared

cameras for several years in building diagnostics. It works great in energy

loss analysis, but it creates many questions when you try to use it to

analyze for potential moisture intrusion issues. Those anomalies need to be

followed up with moisture testing within the wall cavity.

In our market here in the Minneapolis

area, we see too many stucco