Guest guest Posted June 18, 2006 Report Share Posted June 18, 2006 I would strongly suggest you stick with using pasteurized milk to grow 'seed' cultures that you will be using to innoculate your raw milk with later. You could end up growing stuff along with your culture that will later contaminate your efforts and not give you palatable results. Do your own from your raw milk, use an accurate thermometer and bring milk up to 165*F, hold for a minute, then chill in ice water bath. I won't do more than a half gallon at a time in a double boiler. The 'secret' is to do small batchs so you can get it hot fast, then get it chilled fast. I just watch it as I chill and when it gets down to whatever temp the culture says to use, I innoculate and set it in an incubator (made out of a cooler with some gallon jugs of hot water, real high tech LOL) BTW you want to find out whether you need skim or whole milk as sometimes that extra fat will make things rancid and ugly!!! You are wanting to grow a 'pure' culture of whatever it is and you don't want anything else in that milk to out compete that particular 'bug' that's the culture. Having grown a lot of stuff over the years to keep it going, it's SO EASY to get contamination anyway, that I just would not risk using raw milk to grow my cultures. I really LOVE the ease of using the DVI that Dairy Connection sells. They work so well, and they free up a world of my time/refrigerator space in not having to grow all that innoculant! Donna Safehaven Nubians Dandridge, TN > > Hello, I recently received fil milk and viili starters from Gem > Cultures. The instructions say to use pasturized milk for these > cultures. Does anyone have any experience using raw milk to continue > the cultures? -Joan in lin Park, IL- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2006 Report Share Posted June 18, 2006 I NEVER pastuerize milk to make cheese, yogurt, kefir, or drink and have never had an issue with my product being contaminated. If the milk isn't " clean " enough to be safe for a person to do these things with it isn't safe for drinking. Debbie Chikousky Manitoba, Canada gdchik@... http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2006 Report Share Posted June 18, 2006 I am of the same frame of mind as you Debbie. I do not pasteurize. You loose the major benefits of the whole milk by pasteurizing. I have made cheese, ice cream, and other products with fresh, whole milk. Been doing this for 15 years. Prior to that, I was purchasing whole cow milk, now I have my own goats. If you are worried about bad things in your products, you aren't being clean enough with your goats or in your milking parlor.Aquila Ranch Oberhasli & Debbie Chikousky wrote: I NEVER pastuerize milk to make cheese, yogurt, kefir, or drink and have never had an issue with my product being contaminated. If the milk isn't "clean" enough to be safe for a person to do these things with it isn't safe for drinking. Debbie Chikousky Manitoba, Canada gdchik@... http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/ "Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your kids!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 Can you all NOT READ and understand what you are reading??? Read the post, AGAIN. I plainly said that if you are trying make an innoculate 'mother' culture that you are going to use to innoculate your milk then you MIGHT want to use pasteurized milk to ensure that what you innoculate THAT batch with is all you are growing. You are not consuming that batch, but using it to grow your good bugs to innoculate your milk with later. It's no different than when I plant a bed of lettuce, I don't want marigolds and mustard sprouting in it!! Sure, I like mustard and I like marigolds, but I don't want to be constantly picking them out of my salads! Raw milk is wonderful and I make all sorts of things with it. But if I am growing my innoculate cultures I want to start with NOTHING IN THERE but what I want growing in there. There are bacteriophages, molds, fungus, bacteria out there floating about in the air that will play havoc with your cultures under the best of circumstances. Starting with milk that is already ALIVE with stuff is not going to make it easy for my innoculate to outcompete and give me a pure culture. Using raw milk to grow your innoculate cultures is just one more opportunity for growing the wrong thing. And, it doesn't matter how STERILE you want to be in havesting that raw milk, either. It's a LIVING FOOD with living organisms in it. I have always had much greater success in keeping an innoculate culture healthy and pure if I started with pasteurized milk. The book that Rikki Carroll wrote, Cheesemaking Made Easy, has a great protocol for making starter cultures. Donna Safehaven Nubians Dandridge, TN I NEVER pastuerize milk to make cheese, yogurt, kefir, or drink and have > never had an issue with my product being contaminated. If the milk isn't > " clean " enough to be safe for a person to do these things with it isn't safe > for drinking. > Debbie Chikousky > Manitoba, Canada > gdchik@... > http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/ > > > > > > " Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your kids! " > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 << Can you all NOT READ and understand what you are reading??? Read > the post, AGAIN.>> I find your tone rude. I hope that is plain enough for you to understand. What you are promoting is your opinion. Well some of us do not share it. Some of us do not need to kill our milk in order to make a mother culture with it. I buy my mother cultures from Glengarry Cheese and have never had an issue with them sprouting weird things using fresh whole goats milk to make them. It is not acceptable for you to yell, capital letter usage, at those of us that disagree with you. Debbie Chikousky Manitoba, Canada gdchik@... http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 Please Debbie try being a little nicer to people....Ina Re: Re: fil milk and viili << Can you all NOT READ and understand what you are reading??? Read> the post, AGAIN.>>I find your tone rude. I hope that is plain enough for you to understand. What you are promoting is your opinion. Well some of us do not share it. Some of us do not need to kill our milk in order to make a mother culture with it. I buy my mother cultures from Glengarry Cheese and have never had an issue with them sprouting weird things using fresh whole goats milk to make them. It is not acceptable for you to yell, capital letter usage, at those of us that disagree with you.Debbie ChikouskyManitoba, Canadagdchik@...http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 I usually am nice and try to be as helpful and I can be. I really don't know why you are asking me to be nicer to people in general on the list. Debbie ChikouskyManitoba, Canadagdchik@...http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/ Re: Re: fil milk and viili Please Debbie try being a little nicer to people....Ina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 I have found Debbie to be more than generous with her time and her efforts to help everyone. I don't know her personally, but I sure don't see a reason for the attacks upon her, and the rudeness I am seeing from other members of this list. Everyone has an opinion, learn to deal with it. I don't always agree with everything said, even coming from friends, still don't mean I can't respect them or be courteous in my response. We learn by sharing, at least most people do. Aquila Ranch Oberhasli & Debbie Chikousky wrote: I usually am nice and try to be as helpful and I can be. I really don't know why you are asking me to be nicer to people in general on the list. Debbie ChikouskyManitoba, Canadagdchik@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Donna I am sure that you are sincere in your arguments, and that you are using what you consider objective information to reach your decision on using pasteurized milk for these cultures. But I would suggest that there is some other objective information that supports using unprocessed milk. 1. The mix of microorganisms that predominate in a culture is strongly influenced by the "nature" of the culture media (in this case the milk). Clearly if you desire to make a "mother" culture that is successful in dominating the growth in the milk that you subsequently inoculated, it is important that that "mother" culture use the same media. For must of us that want to use unprocessed milk for our various cultured dairy products, it is therefore important that the "mother" be a culture that was selected for optimal growth in unprocessed milk. 2. Again for those of us that want to culture dairy products using unprocessed milk, our environments are not by any means sterile. So under practical environmental conditions I want an inoculum that is going to faithfully grow in my environmental conditions. 3. Traditionally, cultured dairy products were consistently produced using unprocessed milk. And I assume that one reason that they were so successful was that the cultures that they passed on were produced and maintained in what we would now consider very uncontrolled environments. But environments that were more or less consistent. The important point is that they were successful, so it is possible to develop and maintain an inoculum using unprocessed milk. Sometimes they used heat in their processes, but certainly not the conditions that are currently used to produce the pasteurized product that we have in the stores today. 4. It is certainly true that under our culture conditions the organisms in our environment, including the raw milk, are going to; compete or otherwise influence that final cultured product. So it would be wise to select a starter culture that consistently works under our conditions, and to me that argues to develop that starter culture in the environment that it is being developed to function. Ted Re: fil milk and viili Can you all NOT READ and understand what you are reading??? Read the post, AGAIN.I plainly said that if you are trying make an innoculate 'mother' culture that you are going to use to innoculate your milk then you MIGHT want to use pasteurized milk to ensure that what you innoculate THAT batch with is all you are growing. You are not consuming that batch, but using it to grow your good bugs to innoculate your milk with later. It's no different than when I plant a bed of lettuce, I don't want marigolds and mustard sprouting in it!! Sure, I like mustard and I like marigolds, but I don't want to be constantly picking them out of my salads!Raw milk is wonderful and I make all sorts of things with it. But if I am growing my innoculate cultures I want to start with NOTHING IN THERE but what I want growing in there. There are bacteriophages, molds, fungus, bacteria out there floating about in the air that will play havoc with your cultures under the best of circumstances. Starting with milk that is already ALIVE with stuff is not going to make it easy for my innoculate to outcompete and give me a pure culture. Using raw milk to grow your innoculate cultures is just one more opportunity for growing the wrong thing. And, it doesn't matter how STERILE you want to be in havesting that raw milk, either. It's a LIVING FOOD with living organisms in it.I have always had much greater success in keeping an innoculate culture healthy and pure if I started with pasteurized milk. The book that Rikki Carroll wrote, Cheesemaking Made Easy, has a great protocol for making starter cultures. DonnaSafehaven NubiansDandridge, TN I NEVER pastuerize milk to make cheese, yogurt, kefir, or drink and have > never had an issue with my product being contaminated. If the milk isn't > "clean" enough to be safe for a person to do these things with it isn't safe > for drinking.> Debbie Chikousky> Manitoba, Canada> gdchik@...> http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/ > > > > > > "Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your kids!"> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 I'm in catch-up mode, so if I'm missing something please forgive, but I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. Let me add my wrench to this mess: Donna wrote that she advocated a pure mother culture, to be used with subsequent raw milk cultures. She wrote that all kinds of bad bacteria can inhabit raw milk, which raised the defensive hackles on this crowd. But I think she may have unwittingly used the wrong words - it is true that certain strains of bacteria will proliferate in raw milk unless it is pasteurized - most of them good guys! But they can overwhelm the culture you are trying to proliferate for a given product....so you don't really get yogurt' you get clabber-gurt, or kefir-clabber, or filmilk-clabbergurt.... If you don't pasteurize your milk to create a given culture, you may encourage the proliferation of other cultures - most likely good guys, but not what you intended to proliferate. Raw milk has very agressive probiotic qualities, and they can overwhelm slower-developing cultures that need lactose and certain temperatures to thrive. They can be overwhelmed by those fast-growing raw milk good-guys! This can affect the thickness, taste, texture and quality of your end product. When you pasteurize the milk, yes, you destroy wonderful nutrients, but if you then add in specific probiotics for a given product, pasteurization allows the perfect environment for them to thrive and be dominant. Remember that fermentation restores enzymes, increases vitamins, reduces lactose, and adds beneficial bacteria? Hope this makes sense? It's all about balance, and manipulating specific cultures. Don't be afraid of cooking raw milk - you are a food scientist, dealing with the best of materials. and sometimes, temperature only needs to be raised to 90-130 degrees F.; which leave some room for some of those treasured babies to survive. Try it with yogurt; that's easy. (and thick, mild, and creamy!) The best kefir happens with slightly heated (90 degree F) milk; they just love it! -Blair > > Can you all NOT READ and understand what you are reading??? Read > the post, AGAIN. > I plainly said that if you are trying make an > innoculate 'mother' culture that you are going to use to innoculate > your milk then you MIGHT want to use pasteurized milk to ensure that > what you innoculate THAT batch with is all you are growing. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 Thank you, ! Obviously you have made cheese?? kept culture lines going? and know about bateriophages, yeasts, molds? We are in hay and I am also milking at the Blackburns, so have not had time to get back to this topic. I do remember someone making a comment that they got their cultures from Glengarry.... guess what? Those mother cultures are NOT being made with raw milk! Personally after years of keeping cultures going, I finally got tired of it and went to DVI and LOVE IT! Cheap, consistant and no more worrying about keeping that mess going! More time and space for cheese that I EAT! Today the closest thing I come to messing with a culture line is to use storebought cultured buttermilk when teaching a starter cheese course. It's good for making chevre, cottage cheese, buttermilk, feta, mozzarella and not as technically overwhelming to the beginner. I support the right of the public to make INFORMED decisions about whether they want to risk consuming raw dairy products. And, the risks are real. Statistically minimal, but if you are that ONE that gets to be that statistic then it's 100%. Myself, I love to eat raw oysters on the half shell despite the risks. I also like farming, despite those risks, too. And, a church pot luck or a picnic is, IMVHO worth the slightly higher risk I run of food poisoning than eating my own home cooking or at an inspected resteaurant. My own milk, I will drink, make cheese, etc.... without a moments hesitation. Same with the friends for who I am relief milker. I know their cows, their management, and their lab test results LOL. But, there are goats and cows out there that I know personally (and their keepers) that I would NOT consume that milk raw. Probably not even if it were pasteurized, either. When you are buying from a producer you better know what to ask and how to 'read' the answers you are given! Who are they, what are their livestock experiences, etc... ??? In consuming raw dairy you are taking responsibility for your own personal health. That doesn't mean everybody out there milking a dairy animal is producing milk that's fit to consume raw. And, it also doesn't mean that raw milk is what you need to use for every purpose either. It's almost 4 PM and I got 35 full cows waiting for me! Donna Safehaven Nubians Dandridge, TN In RawDairy , " Blair McMorran " wrote: > > I'm in catch-up mode, so if I'm missing something please forgive, but > I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. > > Let me add my wrench to this mess: > > Donna wrote that she advocated a pure mother culture, to be used with > subsequent raw milk cultures. She wrote that all kinds of bad > bacteria can inhabit raw milk, which raised the defensive hackles on > this crowd. > > But I think she may have unwittingly used the wrong words - it is true > that certain strains of bacteria will proliferate in raw milk unless > it is pasteurized - most of them good guys! But they can overwhelm > the culture you are trying to proliferate for a given product....so > you don't really get yogurt' you get clabber-gurt, or kefir-clabber, > or filmilk-clabbergurt.... > > If you don't pasteurize your milk to create a given culture, you may > encourage the proliferation of other cultures - most likely good guys, > but not what you intended to proliferate. Raw milk has very agressive > probiotic qualities, and they can overwhelm slower-developing cultures > that need lactose and certain temperatures to thrive. They can be > overwhelmed by those fast-growing raw milk good-guys! This can affect > the thickness, taste, texture and quality of your end product. > > When you pasteurize the milk, yes, you destroy wonderful nutrients, > but if you then add in specific probiotics for a given product, > pasteurization allows the perfect environment for them to thrive and > be dominant. Remember that fermentation restores enzymes, increases > vitamins, reduces lactose, and adds beneficial bacteria? > > Hope this makes sense? It's all about balance, and manipulating > specific cultures. Don't be afraid of cooking raw milk - you are a > food scientist, dealing with the best of materials. and sometimes, > temperature only needs to be raised to 90-130 degrees F.; which leave > some room for some of those treasured babies to survive. > > Try it with yogurt; that's easy. (and thick, mild, and creamy!) The > best kefir happens with slightly heated (90 degree F) milk; they > just love it! > -Blair > > > > > > > Can you all NOT READ and understand what you are reading??? Read > > the post, AGAIN. > > I plainly said that if you are trying make an > > innoculate 'mother' culture that you are going to use to innoculate > > your milk then you MIGHT want to use pasteurized milk to ensure that > > what you innoculate THAT batch with is all you are growing. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 I think this might be what Daisy company is doing. I'll use this time to sneak in a remark about that subject. Remember when I wondered if their milk was pasteurized? I did call the companies Q & A line. I reached an automated voice that said first thing, their milk is pasteurized and homogenized. I decided not to wait for an operator to come on. Their website just says they know JUST the right culture to put in because they're pros. --LAURA-- Minnesota > > Raw milk has very agressive > probiotic qualities, and they can overwhelm slower-developing cultures > that need lactose and certain temperatures to thrive. They can be > overwhelmed by those fast-growing raw milk good-guys! This can affect > the thickness, taste, texture and quality of your end product. > > Hope this makes sense? It's all about balance, and manipulating > specific cultures. Don't be afraid of cooking raw milk - you are a > food scientist, dealing with the best of materials. and sometimes, > temperature only needs to be raised to 90-130 degrees F.; which leave > some room for some of those treasured babies to survive. > > > -Blair > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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