Re: Has anyone ever used 'ground heat' and ground cooling' for fresh air ventilators?

[Guest guest]

Quack:

Careful there! If you start sucking air from the soil you will have to contend with high humidity, biologicals and spores, and harmful soil-gases such as radon. Therefore, if you plan to do this, I suggest first filtering the air of all the nasty particulates therein (and replace the filters frequently), then pass the air through activated carbon to strip-out the harmful gases (and replace the carbon frequently), then use a desiccant dehumidifier to strip out the moisture. This said, after the expense and energy spent polishing the air from the ground, why not just heat/cool and filter some outdoor air? Just a thought.

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

I have been thinking a lot about the benefits of powered fresh air

ventilation in homes and I realize that a big issue is often that the

air from outside is way too hot or cold in most climates.

However, it seems as if the Earth is typically fairly manageable

temperature wise, and that reservoir of moderate heat a few feet

beneath our feet could buffer the incoming air so that it was cooler

or hotter, given a chance.

Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant in both summer

and winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly dealt with..

Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you know HOW they have done it?

Thank you!

[Guest guest]

Sounds like earth tubes. Also sounds like cooling off the plantation

house

>

> I have been thinking a lot about the benefits of powered fresh air

> ventilation in homes and I realize that a big issue is often that

the

> air from outside is way too hot or cold in most climates.

>

> However, it seems as if the Earth is typically fairly manageable

> temperature wise, and that reservoir of moderate heat a few feet

> beneath our feet could buffer the incoming air so that it was

cooler

> or hotter, given a chance.

>

> Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant in both summer

> and winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly dealt with..

>

> Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you know HOW they

have done it?

>

> Thank you!

>

[Guest guest]

I you may check this article for earth cooling pipe

modelling and energy saving:

Tilte: 'The cooling potential of earth–air heat

exchangers for domestic buildings in a desert climate'

Journal:Building and Environment, Volume 41, Issue 3,

March 2006, Pages 235-244

by: F. Al-Ajmi, D.L. Loveday and V.I. Hanby

good luck,

--- LiveSimply wrote:

> I have been thinking a lot about the benefits of

> powered fresh air

> ventilation in homes and I realize that a big issue

> is often that the

> air from outside is way too hot or cold in most

> climates.

>

> However, it seems as if the Earth is typically

> fairly manageable

> temperature wise, and that reservoir of moderate

> heat a few feet

> beneath our feet could buffer the incoming air so

> that it was cooler

> or hotter, given a chance.

>

> Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant

> in both summer

> and winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly

> dealt with..

>

> Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you

> know HOW they have done it?

>

> Thank you!

>

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

>

> Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant in both

summer

and winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly dealt with..

>Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you know HOW they

have done it?

Thank you!

>

The most masterful example of a cave home is probably the " World

Famous Hole 'n the Rock " near Moab Utah.

http://www.theholeintherock.com/

The interior is conventional 1950's and is like stepping back in

time. It has an absolutely fabulous dehumidification system.

And the system must be working, because I was there a few months ago

and it felt fine.

-

[Guest guest]

Quack,

I've heard of, and done some research on what is known as

" geothermal systems " for heating and cooling. I also know one person

who uses it.

As Mr. Geyer pointed out, bringing in air from subterranean areas

brings along its own set of problems.

The systems that I've become somewhat familiar with, as I understand

them are a type of heat pump (heat/energy exchange unit) that utilizes

either well water, from a well or wells dedicated exclusively to the

geothermal system, or from coils buried in the ground that use fluid or

gas, same or similar to ethylene glycol (antifreeze) or freon as an

energy transport medium, which I believe then goes through a

compressor and/or heat exchanger to extract the necessary energy for

heating or cooling.

These systems use electric to operate the pump and condensor, and

the lines run through the heat exchanger which most commonly, I

believe, utilizes a forced air system to utilize the energy and transport

the conditioned air within the interior of the structure, the same as a

more conventional heat pump, which instead uses the energy in

ambient outdoor air for an energy source.

While the circulating pumps and condensor use a relatively small

amount of electricity, my understanding is that the lack of need for a

conventional fuel energy source such as oil, gas, etc. results in

tremendous savings in overall heating costs, and is of course, much

more environmentally friendly. I don't know how cooling costs

compare.

It seems to make a lot more sense than dealing with the issues that

would result from transporting air directly from a subsurface location,

and into a building.

I also believe that the liquid and freon gas are a much more efficient

transfer medium, but I would need to do some research to find out

exactly how much more efficient.

I do know that conventional air exchange heat pumps become

inefficient to useless at lower temperatures (maybe around 25 - 30

degrees F), and must rely on an electric back-up for heat.

What you presented though is interesting, and I'm wondering whether

any systems have been developed that are based more upon the

principals of a conventional ambient air based heat pump that instead

of ambient oudoor air use air circulated by fans or blowers through

sealed subterranean tubes in order to utilize the geothermal energy.

Does anybody know?

Chuck Reaney

I have been thinking a lot about the benefits of powered fresh air

ventilation in homes and I realize that a big issue is often that the

air from outside is way too hot or cold in most climates.

However, it seems as if the Earth is typically fairly manageable

temperature wise, and that reservoir of moderate heat a few feet

beneath our feet could buffer the incoming air so that it was cooler

or hotter, given a chance.

Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant in both summer

and winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly dealt with..

Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you know HOW they

have

done it?

Thank you!

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not

always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are

making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding

of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy,

scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this

constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided

for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title

17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed

without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational

purposes. For more information go to:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use

copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go

beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright

owner.

[Guest guest]

Have you considered something like this? Residential Heat Exchange Ventilator http://www.trac-aircon.co.uk/residential_heat_exchange_ventilator.htm You probably could run the outdoor intake air through an "air tight" pipe a few feet under the ground, but it may not be cost-efficient (setup and maintenance). Wei Tang QLabLiveSimply wrote: I have been thinking a lot about the benefits of powered fresh airventilation in homes and I realize that a big issue is often that theair from outside is way too hot or cold in most climates.However, it seems as if the Earth is typically fairly manageabletemperature wise, and that reservoir of moderate heat a few feetbeneath our feet could buffer the incoming air so that it was cooleror hotter, given a chance.Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant in both summerand winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly dealt with..Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you know HOW they have done it?Thank you! QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

:

Of course Moab has a good dehumidification system.....IT IS A DESERT! Moab gets about 8-in of rainfall on an annual basis, and in some years it is much less. Moab is also at 4,500-ft in elevation. Moab is a DRY place!....but not always dry. In October of this year they got a real gully washer that flooded many areas. Moab sits on a massive sandstone formation with minimal topsoil/vegetation. Therefore, when Moab gets heavy rains (like this October), most of the precip washes off and runs/flows in gullies, producing the spectacular sandstone formations that is the attraction of Moab.

For what it is worth....

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

>

> Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant in both

summer

and winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly dealt with..

>Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you know HOW they

have done it?

Thank you!

>

The most masterful example of a cave home is probably the " World

Famous Hole 'n the Rock " near Moab Utah.

http://www.theholeintherock.com/

The interior is conventional 1950's and is like stepping back in

time. It has an absolutely fabulous dehumidification system.

And the system must be working, because I was there a few months ago

and it felt fine.

-

[Guest guest]

Wei,I guess the big question is how much does it cost to heat or cool that additional fresh air. These units work sort of like our nose and its blood supply do to moderate the temperature of the air we breathe right?

Have you considered something like this? Residential Heat Exchange Ventilator

http://www.trac-aircon.co.uk/residential_heat_exchange_ventilator.htm

You

probably could run the outdoor intake air through an " air tight " pipe a

few feet under the ground, but it may not be cost-efficient (setup and

maintenance). Wei Tang QLab

I guess that is the big question.. Is the cost savings worth the effort..I'm glad that you guys think this is a potentially good idea, though. Is anyone interested in my further thoughts about how it could be done or know of anyone who might already have done it so I can gain some perspective on whether its a 'pipe dream' or not..

[Guest guest]

Chuck, You know someone who uses this? That's great! Have they written anything up about it - how it works in different climates, what kinds of materials to use, etc.?I would prefer to stay away from antifreeze, as I'm 100% sure that the ground that far below the ground where I live does not freeze, ever.. (but it might get cold in the winter, how cold, I don't know, I'm assumng the deeper you go, the closer the year-round temperature extremes go to some kind of 'average' temperature..

It seems as if it could have the potential, if done right, to save some people a LOT of money, depending on how much effort they were willing to devote to the initial construction.. (burying the long enough pipe deeply enough)

Thank you!

Quack,

I've heard of, and done some research on what is known as

" geothermal systems " for heating and cooling. I also know one person

who uses it.

As Mr. Geyer pointed out, bringing in air from subterranean areas

brings along its own set of problems.

The systems that I've become somewhat familiar with, as I understand

them are a type of heat pump (heat/energy exchange unit) that utilizes

either well water, from a well or wells dedicated exclusively to the

geothermal system, or from coils buried in the ground that use fluid or

gas, same or similar to ethylene glycol (antifreeze) or freon as an

energy transport medium, which I believe then goes through a

compressor and/or heat exchanger to extract the necessary energy for

heating or cooling.

These systems use electric to operate the pump and condensor, and

the lines run through the heat exchanger which most commonly, I

believe, utilizes a forced air system to utilize the energy and transport

the conditioned air within the interior of the structure, the same as a

more conventional heat pump, which instead uses the energy in

ambient outdoor air for an energy source.

While the circulating pumps and condensor use a relatively small

amount of electricity, my understanding is that the lack of need for a

conventional fuel energy source such as oil, gas, etc. results in

tremendous savings in overall heating costs, and is of course, much

more environmentally friendly. I don't know how cooling costs

compare.

It seems to make a lot more sense than dealing with the issues that

would result from transporting air directly from a subsurface location,

and into a building.

I also believe that the liquid and freon gas are a much more efficient

transfer medium, but I would need to do some research to find out

exactly how much more efficient.

I do know that conventional air exchange heat pumps become

inefficient to useless at lower temperatures (maybe around 25 - 30

degrees F), and must rely on an electric back-up for heat.

What you presented though is interesting, and I'm wondering whether

any systems have been developed that are based more upon the

principals of a conventional ambient air based heat pump that instead

of ambient oudoor air use air circulated by fans or blowers through

sealed subterranean tubes in order to utilize the geothermal energy.

Does anybody know?

Chuck Reaney

[Guest guest]

http://www.fhp-mfg.com/res_products/applications.htm

This site explains how geothermal works for AC/heating. We have few of these installations around in residential single family. But the FHP products are very popular in new high rise residential AC systems.

Rosen

Re: Has anyone ever used 'ground heat' and "ground cooling' for fresh air ventilators?

Quack,I've heard of, and done some research on what is known as "geothermal systems" for heating and cooling. I also know one person who uses it.As Mr. Geyer pointed out, bringing in air from subterranean areas brings along its own set of problems.The systems that I've become somewhat familiar with, as I understand them are a type of heat pump (heat/energy exchange unit) that utilizes either well water, from a well or wells dedicated exclusively to the geothermal system, or from coils buried in the ground that use fluid or gas, same or similar to ethylene glycol (antifreeze) or freon as an energy transport medium, which I believe then goes through a compressor and/or heat exchanger to extract the necessary energy for heating or cooling.These systems use electric to operate the pump and condensor, and the lines run through the heat exchanger which most commonly, I believe, utilizes a forced

air system to utilize the energy and transport the conditioned air within the interior of the structure, the same as a more conventional heat pump, which instead uses the energy in ambient outdoor air for an energy source.While the circulating pumps and condensor use a relatively small amount of electricity, my understanding is that the lack of need for a conventional fuel energy source such as oil, gas, etc. results in tremendous savings in overall heating costs, and is of course, much more environmentally friendly. I don't know how cooling costs compare.It seems to make a lot more sense than dealing with the issues that would result from transporting air directly from a subsurface location, and into a building.I also believe that the liquid and freon gas are a much more efficient transfer medium, but I would need to do some research to find out exactly how much more efficient.I do know that

conventional air exchange heat pumps become inefficient to useless at lower temperatures (maybe around 25 - 30 degrees F), and must rely on an electric back-up for heat.What you presented though is interesting, and I'm wondering whether any systems have been developed that are based more upon the principals of a conventional ambient air based heat pump that instead of ambient oudoor air use air circulated by fans or blowers through sealed subterranean tubes in order to utilize the geothermal energy.Does anybody know?Chuck ReaneyI have been thinking a lot about the benefits of powered fresh airventilation in homes and I realize that a big issue is often that theair from outside is way too hot or cold in most climates.However, it seems as if the Earth is typically fairly manageabletemperature wise, and that reservoir of moderate heat a few

feetbeneath our feet could buffer the incoming air so that it was cooleror hotter, given a chance.Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant in both summerand winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly dealt with..Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you know HOW they havedone it?Thank you!FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has notalways been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We aremaking such material available in our efforts to advance understandingof environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy,scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe thisconstitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as providedfor in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributedwithout profit to those who have

expressed a prior interest inreceiving the included information for research and educationalpurposes. For more information go to:http://www.law. cornell.edu/ uscode/17/ 107.shtml. If you wish to usecopyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that gobeyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyrightowner.

[Guest guest]

Yes, My wife and I also visited Moab just a few months ago, and of course, checked out the Hole in the Wall...it was very cool..

[Guest guest]

Ahh, you wanted to know about ground source heat pumps. I thought

you were asking about the passive earthtubes.

I probably did about 20 systems in Canada in a past life.

It depends where you live, but a closed loop system could hit

freezing and you would therefore need anitfreeze. Sometimes making

frost under ground at 144 Btu/lb is useful :-)

> >

> > Quack,

> >

> > I've heard of, and done some research on what is known as

> > " geothermal systems " for heating and cooling. I also know one

person

> > who uses it.

> >

> > As Mr. Geyer pointed out, bringing in air from subterranean areas

> > brings along its own set of problems.

> >

> > The systems that I've become somewhat familiar with, as I

understand

> > them are a type of heat pump (heat/energy exchange unit) that

utilizes

> > either well water, from a well or wells dedicated exclusively to

the

> > geothermal system, or from coils buried in the ground that use

fluid or

> > gas, same or similar to ethylene glycol (antifreeze) or freon as

an

> > energy transport medium, which I believe then goes through a

> > compressor and/or heat exchanger to extract the necessary energy

for

> > heating or cooling.

> >

> > These systems use electric to operate the pump and condensor, and

> > the lines run through the heat exchanger which most commonly, I

> > believe, utilizes a forced air system to utilize the energy and

transport

> > the conditioned air within the interior of the structure, the

same as a

> > more conventional heat pump, which instead uses the energy in

> > ambient outdoor air for an energy source.

> >

> > While the circulating pumps and condensor use a relatively small

> > amount of electricity, my understanding is that the lack of need

for a

> > conventional fuel energy source such as oil, gas, etc. results in

> > tremendous savings in overall heating costs, and is of course,

much

> > more environmentally friendly. I don't know how cooling costs

> > compare.

> >

> > It seems to make a lot more sense than dealing with the issues

that

> > would result from transporting air directly from a subsurface

location,

> > and into a building.

> >

> > I also believe that the liquid and freon gas are a much more

efficient

> > transfer medium, but I would need to do some research to find out

> > exactly how much more efficient.

> >

> > I do know that conventional air exchange heat pumps become

> > inefficient to useless at lower temperatures (maybe around 25 -

30

> > degrees F), and must rely on an electric back-up for heat.

> >

> > What you presented though is interesting, and I'm wondering

whether

> > any systems have been developed that are based more upon the

> > principals of a conventional ambient air based heat pump that

instead

> > of ambient oudoor air use air circulated by fans or blowers

through

> > sealed subterranean tubes in order to utilize the geothermal

energy.

> >

> > Does anybody know?

> >

> > Chuck Reaney

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Correct me if I am wrong. I think those units have fresh outdoor air and stale indoor air passing each other in opposite directions in separate channels next to each other, so they can exchange heat energy. Heating or cooling is still done in HVAC. Of course, the fresh air doesn't come in 24/7. Wei Tang QLabLiveSimply wrote: Wei,I guess the big question is how much does it cost to heat

or cool that additional fresh air. These units work sort of like our nose and its blood supply do to moderate the temperature of the air we breathe right? Have you considered something like this? Residential Heat Exchange Ventilator http://www.trac-aircon.co.uk/residential_heat_exchange_ventilator.htm You probably could run the outdoor intake air through an "air tight" pipe a few feet under the ground, but it may not be cost-efficient (setup and maintenance). Wei Tang QLabI guess that is the big question.. Is the cost savings worth the effort..I'm glad that you guys think this is a potentially good idea, though. Is anyone interested in my further thoughts about how it could be done or know of anyone who might already have done it so I can gain some perspective on whether its a 'pipe dream' or not.. QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ

08003www.QLabUSA.com

[Guest guest]

, Thanks for sharing this website with nice picture demonstrating the device. It does make sense. I guess Quack's idea is right on the money, except that they use liquid flow to carry the heat energy (probably more efficient than air flow). So, outdoor air stay fresh without possible contamination as mentioned in previous posts. Wei Tang QLABgary rosen wrote: http://www.fhp-mfg.com/res_products/applications.htm This site explains how geothermal works for AC/heating. We have few of these installations around in residential single family. But the FHP products are very popular in new high rise residential AC systems. Rosen Re: Has anyone ever used 'ground heat' and "ground cooling' for fresh air ventilators? Quack,I've heard of, and done some research on what is known as "geothermal systems" for heating and cooling. I also know one person who uses it.As Mr. Geyer pointed out, bringing in air from subterranean areas brings along its own set of problems.The systems that I've become somewhat familiar with, as I understand them are a type of heat pump (heat/energy exchange unit) that utilizes either well water, from a well or wells dedicated exclusively to the

geothermal system, or from coils buried in the ground that use fluid or gas, same or similar to ethylene glycol (antifreeze) or freon as an energy transport medium, which I believe then goes through a compressor and/or heat exchanger to extract the necessary energy for heating or cooling.These systems use electric to operate the pump and condensor, and the lines run through the heat exchanger which most commonly, I believe, utilizes a forced air system to utilize the energy and transport the conditioned air within the interior of the structure, the same as a more conventional heat pump, which instead uses the energy in ambient outdoor air for an energy source.While the circulating pumps and condensor use a relatively small amount of electricity, my understanding is that the lack of need for a conventional fuel energy source such as oil, gas, etc. results in tremendous savings in overall heating costs, and

is of course, much more environmentally friendly. I don't know how cooling costs compare.It seems to make a lot more sense than dealing with the issues that would result from transporting air directly from a subsurface location, and into a building.I also believe that the liquid and freon gas are a much more efficient transfer medium, but I would need to do some research to find out exactly how much more efficient.I do know that conventional air exchange heat pumps become inefficient to useless at lower temperatures (maybe around 25 - 30 degrees F), and must rely on an electric back-up for heat.What you presented though is interesting, and I'm wondering whether any systems have been developed that are based more upon the principals of a conventional ambient air based heat pump that instead of ambient oudoor air use air circulated by fans or blowers through sealed subterranean tubes in order to

utilize the geothermal energy.Does anybody know?Chuck ReaneyI have been thinking a lot about the benefits of powered fresh airventilation in homes and I realize that a big issue is often that theair from outside is way too hot or cold in most climates.However, it seems as if the Earth is typically fairly manageabletemperature wise, and that reservoir of moderate heat a few feetbeneath our feet could buffer the incoming air so that it was cooleror hotter, given a chance.Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant in both summerand winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly dealt with..Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you know HOW they havedone it?Thank you!FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has notalways been specifically authorized by the copyright

owner. We aremaking such material available in our efforts to advance understandingof environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy,scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe thisconstitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as providedfor in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributedwithout profit to those who have expressed a prior interest inreceiving the included information for research and educationalpurposes. For more information go to:http://www.law. cornell.edu/ uscode/17/ 107.shtml. If you wish to usecopyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that gobeyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyrightowner.

[Guest guest]

Geyer wrote:

>

> :

>

> Of course Moab has a good dehumidification system.....IT IS A

DESERT!

but not inside a cave.

This Hole 'n the Rock home has a FORMIDIBLE dehumidification system

and it is definitely required - even in a desert.

You can't count on a desert clime to overcome the difficulties of IEQ.

Let me take you around Las Vegas, Carson or Reno!

I'll show you some desert slammers for sure.

-

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know of an inexpensive, easily cleanable way to interface moving air to the chilled (or warmed) fluid coming from the pipes? I was thinking that the impracticality of running the air through the pipes itself precluded using something like this, but the pumps and liquid tubes don't seem too difficult to build. OTOH, a heat exchanger sounds like it might be harder. Would something like a modern hot water radiator unit work?

When I get better, I want to build something like this..

[Guest guest]

Based on the residential systems I did in Canada, the groundsource

systems would be a premium of 5000 to 6000 dollars more than

compared to high efficiency gas heat with central air.

The first process for a successful groundsource heat pump is to

reduce the heat load in the first place. Homes seemed better

insulated and tightly sealed in Canada going back in time.

But there are additional factors why they cost more. In Canada part

of the reason was the quality of the temperature source or 'how warm

the earth is'. If you were in the Prairies then with good snow cover

your system could be extracting heat at a temperature near the

freezing point of water. The lower the temperature source, the lower

the heat output.

Perhaps in the more temporate areas of the United States, the

temperature source is warmer and then a significantly smaller unit

would suffice and lower the costs.

In Northern Canada, the heat pumps were sized to upwards of 80% of

the design heat load, and in cooling mode, they would be grossly

oversized. However, the ambinet dewpoint in Northern Canada/Prairies

was low enough for the oversizing not to be problematic.

Oversized AC in a more humid climate can lead to high indoor RH. I

never experienced an elevated RH due to equipment oversizing in

Northern Canada myself.

With open loop systems, you do need good quality of water and a

means of disposing this water. I have seen people install them

against advice on water quality and the Heat Exchangers scale up

quickly. Scale insulates and reduces heat transfer. Without scale

problems, the open loop systems operate with a higher temperature

source than the closed loop, 10 degrees was what I found.

Sorry to ramble, did my lowly " Bachelor's Degree Project " on these

systems based on about 8 systems I put in, during my final year at

school.

>

> I have been thinking a lot about the benefits of powered fresh air

> ventilation in homes and I realize that a big issue is often that

the

> air from outside is way too hot or cold in most climates.

>

> However, it seems as if the Earth is typically fairly manageable

> temperature wise, and that reservoir of moderate heat a few feet

> beneath our feet could buffer the incoming air so that it was

cooler

> or hotter, given a chance.

>

> Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant in both summer

> and winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly dealt with..

>

> Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you know HOW they

> have

> done it?

>

> Thank you!

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

> This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not

> always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are

> making such material available in our efforts to advance

understanding

> of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy,

> scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this

> constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as

provided

> for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with

Title

> 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed

> without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

> receiving the included information for research and educational

> purposes. For more information go to:

> http://www.law. cornell.edu/ uscode/17/ 107.shtml.

<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.> If you wish to use

> copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that

go

> beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright

> owner.

[Guest guest]

I asked a heating specialist friend of mine for his opinion on this and below are his comments:

This has been done before by burying large, long pipes about 2 Meters deep.

The problem in North America is that in the summer the air will be cooled below the dewpoint (easily calculated once you know the dewpoint of the air at any/every time, the thermal mass and conductivity and thickness of the pipe, the thermal mass and water content and conductivity of the soil, the pipe's fouling factor, surface film coefficient, the air density and velocity, etc.) and water will collect in the pipe, creating a biology experiment. In the winter the air would be heated enough to avoid or mostly avoid the need for a defrost cycle in an energy recovery ventilator at the expense of much fan energy - hard to say if there would be a net energy gain or net loss, although it would certianly qualify as an "alternative technology" or "new energy system" regardless of how much energy it used or saved. Substituting expensive energy (fan electricity) for cheap energy (gas or oil used to heat the building) means that even if it saved a little

energy, it would probably add to the energy cost, and to the overall energy use when the electric grid inefficiency is taken into account.

The technique has reportedly been done sucessfully in Europe. However, if you compare the summer peak dewpoints in North American and Europe, you will find higher summer dewpoints in Minneapolis, Boston, New York, Washington DC, and Seattle than in London, Dublin, Rome, furt, Munich, and Barcelona. In other words, their drier summer climate helps. Reportedly they also use clay pipe, presumably because capillary forces are strong enough to keep the condensation from becoming available for mold, although I doubt this would work when the soil is saturated by rain.

I have looked into doing it in the US, and have concluded that it is not a good idea in terms of saving either energy or money or anything else of value here, and remain unconvinced that it works in Europe either.

Henry Gifford"Redington, Curtis" wrote:

Group,

Using a ground source heat pump can be much more energy efficient than other methods of heating/cooling, including air source heat pumps. Unfortunately, for most energy efficient options (from CF lights to front loading washers), there is an often substantial increase in up-front purchase cost. For my house, I paid an extra $5000 (vs. the standard 80% efficient gas furnace with standard AC) to go with a ground source heat pump with 2-stage compressor and variable speed fan. I also paid about $1000 for a well, pump, pressure tank, and piping to supply water to our "pump and dump" (open loop) system. Based on comparison to utility costs at our previous home, it looks like we will recover that investment (through reduced utility costs) in about four to five years. Part of the credit would have to go to the construction method (ICF) as well as air sealing too, though.

Curtis Redington

Re: Has anyone ever used 'ground heat' and "ground cooling' for fresh air ventilators?

,

Thanks for sharing this website with nice picture demonstrating the device. It does make sense. I guess Quack's idea is right on the money, except that they use liquid flow to carry the heat energy (probably more efficient than air flow). So, outdoor air stay fresh without possible contamination as mentioned in previous posts.

Wei Tang

QLABgary rosen <garyrosen72652@ yahoo.com> wrote:

http://www.fhp- mfg.com/res_ products/ applications. htm

This site explains how geothermal works for AC/heating. We have few of these installations around in residential single family. But the FHP products are very popular in new high rise residential AC systems.

Rosen

Re: Has anyone ever used 'ground heat' and "ground cooling' for fresh air ventilators?

Quack,I've heard of, and done some research on what is known as "geothermal systems" for heating and cooling. I also know one person who uses it.As Mr. Geyer pointed out, bringing in air from subterranean areas brings along its own set of problems.The systems that I've become somewhat familiar with, as I understand them are a type of heat pump (heat/energy exchange unit) that utilizes either well water, from a well or wells dedicated exclusively to the geothermal system, or from coils buried in the ground that use fluid or gas, same or similar to ethylene glycol (antifreeze) or freon as an energy transport medium, which I believe then goes through a compressor and/or heat exchanger to extract the necessary energy for heating or cooling.These systems use electric to operate the pump and condensor, and the lines run through the heat exchanger which most commonly, I believe, utilizes a forced

air system to utilize the energy and transport the conditioned air within the interior of the structure, the same as a more conventional heat pump, which instead uses the energy in ambient outdoor air for an energy source.While the circulating pumps and condensor use a relatively small amount of electricity, my understanding is that the lack of need for a conventional fuel energy source such as oil, gas, etc. results in tremendous savings in overall heating costs, and is of course, much more environmentally friendly. I don't know how cooling costs compare.It seems to make a lot more sense than dealing with the issues that would result from transporting air directly from a subsurface location, and into a building.I also believe that the liquid and freon gas are a much more efficient transfer medium, but I would need to do some research to find out exactly how much more efficient.I do know that

conventional air exchange heat pumps become inefficient to useless at lower temperatures (maybe around 25 - 30 degrees F), and must rely on an electric back-up for heat.What you presented though is interesting, and I'm wondering whether any systems have been developed that are based more upon the principals of a conventional ambient air based heat pump that instead of ambient oudoor air use air circulated by fans or blowers through sealed subterranean tubes in order to utilize the geothermal energy.Does anybody know?Chuck ReaneyI have been thinking a lot about the benefits of powered fresh airventilation in homes and I realize that a big issue is often that theair from outside is way too hot or cold in most climates.However, it seems as if the Earth is typically fairly manageabletemperature wise, and that reservoir of moderate heat a few

feetbeneath our feet could buffer the incoming air so that it was cooleror hotter, given a chance.Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant in both summerand winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly dealt with..Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you know HOW they havedone it?Thank you!FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has notalways been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We aremaking such material available in our efforts to advance understandingof environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy,scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe thisconstitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as providedfor in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributedwithout profit to those who have

expressed a prior interest inreceiving the included information for research and educationalpurposes. For more information go to:http://www.law. cornell.edu/ uscode/17/ 107.shtml. If you wish to usecopyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that gobeyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyrightowner.

[Guest guest]

I’ve

only causally followed this thread, but I think this link will go a long way to

answering questions.

http://www.geoexchange.org/

Mark Doughty

Re: Has

anyone ever used 'ground heat' and " ground cooling' for fresh air

ventilators?

,

Thanks for sharing this website with nice picture

demonstrating the device. It does make sense. I guess Quack's idea is right on

the money, except that they use liquid flow to carry the heat energy (probably

more efficient than air flow). So, outdoor air stay fresh without possible

contamination as mentioned in previous posts.

Wei Tang

QLAB

gary rosen

<garyrosen72652@ yahoo.com> wrote:

http://www.fhp-

mfg.com/res_ products/ applications. htm

This site explains how geothermal works for

AC/heating. We have few of these installations around in residential

single family. But the FHP products are very popular in new high

rise residential AC systems.

Rosen

Re: Has anyone ever used 'ground heat' and " ground

cooling' for fresh air ventilators?

Quack,

I've heard of, and done some research on what is known as

" geothermal systems " for heating and cooling. I also know one person

who uses it.

As Mr. Geyer pointed out, bringing in air from subterranean areas

brings along its own set of problems.

The systems that I've become somewhat familiar with, as I understand

them are a type of heat pump (heat/energy exchange unit) that utilizes

either well water, from a well or wells dedicated exclusively to the

geothermal system, or from coils buried in the ground that use fluid or

gas, same or similar to ethylene glycol (antifreeze) or freon as an

energy transport medium, which I believe then goes through a

compressor and/or heat exchanger to extract the necessary energy for

heating or cooling.

These systems use electric to operate the pump and condensor, and

the lines run through the heat exchanger which most commonly, I

believe, utilizes a forced air system to utilize the energy and transport

the conditioned air within the interior of the structure, the same as a

more conventional heat pump, which instead uses the energy in

ambient outdoor air for an energy source.

While the circulating pumps and condensor use a relatively small

amount of electricity, my understanding is that the lack of need for a

conventional fuel energy source such as oil, gas, etc. results in

tremendous savings in overall heating costs, and is of course, much

more environmentally friendly. I don't know how cooling costs

compare.

It seems to make a lot more sense than dealing with the issues that

would result from transporting air directly from a subsurface location,

and into a building.

I also believe that the liquid and freon gas are a much more efficient

transfer medium, but I would need to do some research to find out

exactly how much more efficient.

I do know that conventional air exchange heat pumps become

inefficient to useless at lower temperatures (maybe around 25 - 30

degrees F), and must rely on an electric back-up for heat.

What you presented though is interesting, and I'm wondering whether

any systems have been developed that are based more upon the

principals of a conventional ambient air based heat pump that instead

of ambient oudoor air use air circulated by fans or blowers through

sealed subterranean tubes in order to utilize the geothermal energy.

Does anybody know?

Chuck Reaney

I have been thinking a lot about the benefits of powered fresh air

ventilation in homes and I realize that a big issue is often that the

air from outside is way too hot or cold in most climates.

However, it seems as if the Earth is typically fairly manageable

temperature wise, and that reservoir of moderate heat a few feet

beneath our feet could buffer the incoming air so that it was cooler

or hotter, given a chance.

Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant in both summer

and winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly dealt with..

Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you know HOW they

have

done it?

Thank you!

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not

always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are

making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding

of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy,

scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this

constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided

for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title

17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed

without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational

purposes. For more information go to:

http://www.law. cornell.edu/ uscode/17/ 107.shtml. If you wish

to use

copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go

beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright

owner.

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I would certainly agree with your warnings and those voiced by others about

using the earth to condition outsde air.

Interestingly enough, some newer residential building codes will now allow

uventilated crawl spaces so long as they they are part of an air conveyance

system:

<http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/foundations/conditioned_crawl.pdf>

In other words, air from the HVAC supply or return must include the crawl

space. This seems like requiring an underground duct with a huge surface

area to acqure dust and mold growth.

It would have been simpler and healthier to allow the unventilated crawl

space if it is dehumidiified and completely sealed from the house air,

exterior and soil.

I would caution ayone from specifying this type of construction and am

interested in what others think.

C. May, M.A., CIAQP

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

1522 Cambridge Street

Cambridge, MA 02139

www.mayindoorair.com

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

Geyer writes:

> Quack:

>

> Careful there! If you start sucking air from the soil you will have to

> contend with high humidity, biologicals and spores, and harmful soil-gases

> such as radon. Therefore, if you plan to do this, I suggest first filtering

> the air of all the nasty particulates therein (and replace the filters

> frequently), then pass the air through activated carbon to strip-out the

> harmful gases (and replace the carbon frequently), then use a desiccant

> dehumidifier to strip out the moisture. This said, after the expense and

> energy spent polishing the air from the ground, why not just heat/cool and

> filter some outdoor air? Just a thought.

>

> --

> Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

> President

> KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

> Bakersfield, California

> www.kerntecindustries.com

>

>

>> I have been thinking a lot about the benefits of powered fresh air

>> ventilation in homes and I realize that a big issue is often that the

>> air from outside is way too hot or cold in most climates.

>> However, it seems as if the Earth is typically fairly manageable

>> temperature wise, and that reservoir of moderate heat a few feet

>> beneath our feet could buffer the incoming air so that it was cooler

>> or hotter, given a chance.

>>

>> Kind of like how cave homes are often quite pleasant in both summer

>> and winter if moisture/humidity issues are properly dealt with..

>>

>> Has anyone ever done this and if so, do any of you know HOW they have done

it?

>>

>> Thank you!