Re: trying to understand

[Guest guest]

,

I am so sorry you are going through this. It is not unreasonable to want a

cleaning lady. And you know what, you are a valuable person. The fault is not

yours, it is your #**#! husbands. His feelings (which are wrong) do not make

you a bad person. The name calling is totally unacceptable. To me that is

verbal and emotional abuse.

I think you know what my marriage was like. No validation, very little support.

Bottom line, only you know what to do in terms of your marriage. I got out of

mine because I couldn't take it anymore.

I am sending big hugs and positive thoughts your way. Post again and let us

know how you are doing.

BTW, I would have told him to clean the (bleep) house himself.

Hania (whose blood is boiling now because I haven't mastered the art of being

calm)

[Guest guest]

--- ahimsa wrote:

> I think, like most arguments (and as you mentioned

> in your

> post) the cleaning lady is just the catalyst for the

> argument.

I think the way your husband is not treating you is

not right. My first thought was to say that this is

an example of why I'm single and never plan to get

involved again, but I realize that some people

actually find partners who can work out differences,

so I'm trying to be more positive about other people.

If you compromise your health to please someone else,

your physical condition won't get better and might get

worse. Over-doing for 4 1/2 years for my ex bpd

spouse is what got me fibromyalgia (I am convinced.)

I am now taking care of myself first. Please take

care of yourself.

> I think it is hard for some people to understand

> that while a

> person with a chronic illness can often do some

> things that

> other " normal " healthy people can do (for example,

> can

> still work), there are other things that one simply

> cannot do.

My parents are still trying to grasp what I can and

can't do now that I have fibromyalgia. They don't

really approve of taking time off work, but during the

heat of the summer, I have had to take off one day per

week just to rest of to make it the next week.

> CFS mailing lists we call it ART--Aggressive Rest

> Therapy! :-)

I really like this one!

Holly

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Wow, , I'm so sorry to hear you are going through this!

I think, like most arguments (and as you mentioned in your

post) the cleaning lady is just the catalyst for the argument.

The deeper issue is respect, trust, and how two people in a

marriage can work out their disagreements. Also, how your

husband sees you and whether he truly understands and believes

that you have a chronic illness. Oh yeah, it could also be

related to different views about how to spend money or even

gender roles.

I'll stick to discussing the health issue because that is

something I can relate to. I have CFIDS, Chronic Fatigue and

Immune Dysfunction Syndrome, also known as CFS.

I think it is hard for some people to understand that while a

person with a chronic illness can often do some things that

other " normal " healthy people can do (for example, can

still work), there are other things that one simply cannot do.

I was able to work (with lots of time off, reduced work hours)

for about 10 years after I got sick. But I simply could not do

things like scrub a bathtub without severe consequences. It

was not an option if I wanted to save my strength for working,

a higher priority task for so many reasons.

I wish I could give you some good advice but I think the best I

can do is to give you validation:

You are not crazy or selfish or lazy! You are sick! You are

working full time, and have children to raise, PLUS you have

Fibromyalgia. It was a very smart move to delegate some

housework to a cleaning service to protect your health and

allow you to do all the other stuff you need to do (kids,

working, etc.). Plus your husband probably forgets that even

if you have a cleaning service, you still have other housework

like laundry, dishes, groceries--these tasks still have to be

done and can be quite exhausting when you're ill.

I hope this helps. I also hope you can find a way to discuss

this with your husband without it escalating into a major battle.

It may be up to you to keep your cool even if he cannot.

I wish you the strength to stand up for your needs and protect your

health. Avoid the FOG that could make you feel selfish for having

something that you NEED to support your health and well being.

Hugs,

Marjorie in Oregon

ahimsa@...

PS. I have the best husband when it comes to my illness. I'll

share one quote with you. He's always saying, " Resting counts! "

which is a shorthand way to remind me that resting is not " doing

nothing. " Resting is a necessary activity so that I can recover

and build up strength. He trusts that I am doing the best I can

to help with the housework, that I am not lazy, etc. On one of my

CFS mailing lists we call it ART--Aggressive Rest Therapy! :-)

So, I will pass on his message to you, , " Resting counts! "

(you may need less rest and more pain relievers or other kinds

of treatment, but I think you get the idea)

[Guest guest]

Jules,

Kinda hard for me to respond because as your sis' I know you AND your

husband but I gotta put my 2 cents in!

> I am so mad at my husbands attitude over this. He feels

that " good, it was a waste of money to begin with. " He claims that

cleaning the house is very easy to do and we should just do it in our

spare time.

My husband does this too. I don't know if he will ever totally

understand. When I went away for a week, leaving him with the 2 kids

and the house he had the whole house cleaned and even bragged to my

other stay at home mom friends at the playground that it was easy. I

don't think they liked him much after that and I wasnt' sure whether

to thank him for cleaning the house or slug him!

>I feel like I work very hard outside the home.....

You know I don't work outside the home and it is damn, hard work

getting to those tubs and baseboards and mopping and all that other

hard, time consuming, back breaking extra stuff. I can only make the

time to do it when the dust is starting to look a different color or

the tub is starting to look like a lagoon.

> and his attitude shows me that he does not value the contributions

I bring in.

Hate to say it, but his attitude shows that he doesn't value you like

he should!

>Do I make large amounts of money....no. But I make a decent salary.

You make good money and that is intimidating to him.

Also...There is no comparing your job to his and I am shocked he has

the ba* & ^ to do that. He works one day on and four days off. Give

me a break!

> I'm upset over his attitude that cleaning the house is so easy to

do. I tried telling him that I was very angry that he could sit

there and tell me it was so easy to clean house when I was the one

who did the bulk of the cleaning. He stated last night that he

always does his fair share. Well, his way of cleaning is very

different than mine and he's the one who decides what his fair share

is, and I have no input.

Unfortunately my hub is the same way :-(

>Plus when we were discussing it, he made comments that were very

demeaning. Like, " If I(!) the princess, HAD to have someone come in

and clean this house then WE " D better do it " . And, " he been married

to a bitch for 20 years " . And, " all I did all day every day was sit

on the computer whining with a bunch of people about the nadas " . He

said " I was very expensive and he didn't think I was worth it " .

Okay...I'm just going to have to kill him. Seriously, Jules, this

pains me so to hear this. Arguing about a maid and housework is one

thing...him saying all that is something different entirely. I think

that what pains me the most is that you believe him.

He is soooo intimidated by you. He knows he has it good and when he

can keep you in line by using petty comments (that only make him look

like a big, ignorant ahole) he is going to use it.

By making YOU believe that you are worthless he has accomplished

keeping you with him and his biggest fear would be losing you.

I agree with what someone else wrote...now that you have grown strong

and are finding your true self, that scares him and I think he is

afraid that you might discover You find him worthless...so he makes

you feel worthless.

You owe it to yourself (and those boys) to set boundaries with your

hubby. Those comments he makes are verbal and emotional abuse.

Don't excuse that or take it lightly.

> This morning he gave me 50$. He said he would have paid me what we

pay B to clean, but he didn't have to put up with her " bitching the

whole time " .

Jerk! (And I love what wrote about this!)

>We went back to the same old pattern. I get upset....he puts me

down to put me in my place....and I end up raging.

You have got to find a way to break this pattern. Set a boundary in

regard to him putting you down and be strong and enforce it.

>I want him to take my difficulties with my mom seriously. I want

him to take my job seriously.

Don't know if you can control any of this. He may never understand

our nada situation and your job scares him because it provides you

with independence and income!

>I don't want him to call me a " princess " or a " bitch " . And

furthermore I don't want to be married to someone who even THINKS I'm

a " princess " or a " bitch " . I don't want him to say that in front of

my boys, because how will they respect me.

Of course you don't...it's abuse and it hurts!

>And I especially don't want to get into the same pattern where he

runs me down and I capitulate and kow tow to him because he must be

right. My self-esteem is fragile enough that when he says those

things, I believe hime.

He is NOT right!!! Don't you DARE believe him!! You are a generous,

loving person and you are now strong and everyone who knows you knows

you are not a " princess " (in the context your husband meant it). In

fact, we know how hard you work and I know everyone who knows you

would agree that if any of us " deserves " a maid to come in and clean

it would be you. You are doing an incredible job at work and it does

take up a great deal of your time.

And I have to tell you this. I am teaching [my daughter] that each

and every female is a princess. We are all by the right of being

female a princess. We are all special and worthy and deserving of

loyalty, love, pampering (by our own self and by those who love us)

and most of all...respect.

I got this off the newest edition of " The Little Princess " and I

believe it to be true.

So I do believe you are a princess, Jules. I believe that you are

beautiful, caring, loving, respectful, talented and deserving of all

that in return.

>I don't think wanting a cleaning woman when I work 45-55 hours a

week makes me a " princess " .

No justifying needed, I believe. If you've got the money, wanting a

maid is in no way selfish. It is like owning a dishwasher. Sure,

you could wash it all by hand but it does a great job and saves you a

lot of time that you could be spending elsewhere.

And if that elsewhere is on this website...more power to

you...because you have found strength, compainship and understanding

here! That is " taking care of you " and very important.

> I don't know. But I've got to stop " whining " because I have to go

to work.

You are not whining. Sounds like something hubby would say. Venting

is a more positive and constructive word!

You are in a hard place, Jules and I wish you strength to take care

of yourself. You have done so well with nada that it might not have

been apparent that there is abuse from your hubby. Now might be a

good time to take a look at the " patterns " in your marriage that are

abusive or unhealthy and try to find boundaries to stop them.

You, like all princesses , deserve a happy castle and someone to

pamper and love you unconditionally. (Don't get me wrong though, ANY

hubby is going to have quirks...they are okay as long as they are not

abusive or get on our nerves too much!).

And fire that d@#n maid! Don't give in and not have one...you need

one!...but find another one. If you really like this one, talk to

her and again, set boundaries. Let her know if she can't make it to

your house you must be informed and any more " no shows " without

notice will have to result in termination of services.

Good luck!

Sara

[Guest guest]

I am glad someone else wrote this! I thought I would be the only

one to say that on behalf of princesses everywhere(haha), it is not

an insult to be labeled as one. After all, I am the result of the

pairing of the " King and Queen " as described in UBM...so that would

make it official. I always knew deep down that I was a princess,

after all, what girl isn't?

Of course depending on context and tone and such any word or label

can be an insult, especially if it is closely followed by the " B "

word! I think I would have to tell your hubby that he is the one

acting like a little bitch. I would also have some choice words

about the $50 he gave you. As in save it for a hooker, because he

won't be one of this princess' " subjects " for quite sometime with

that attitude! Just kidding, obviously, no one would really want

their husbands to visit a hooker. but--You could go buy him some

earplugs as a more economical version of a maid..his house could then

be cleaned without him " listening to the bitching. " ha ha He also

wouldn't have to listen to the sound of his butt hitting the pavement

from being kicked out by some " princess. "

Before I read the part where he called you names and was completely

mean and nasty about the whole maid issue, I was going to suggest

something like taking all of the jobs that are difficult and dividing

them up on a chart or something. If you aren't able to scrub the

bath tub, maybe he could trade you for one of his harder duties.

Like if he doesn't like to fold laundry or if he can't do some other

job that may be too detailed or something, you could trade them until

you both feel like no one is getting the short end of the deal. For

example, I hate the cat box duties--ick. My boyfriend hates to do

laundry. So he is on kitty box detail and I am in charge of the

laundry. To us it is fair, the laundry may take longer and the cat

box obviously smells worse than the laundry, but to him, the time

consuming laundry is not as bad as the stinky kitties and vice versa

for me. It wouldn't work as well if both of us felt the same way

about the laundry, but usually we can compromise or take turns.

Sorry you are having a bad time with the husband, hope it gets better

soon! (a.k.a. princess rachel)

> And I have to tell you this. I am teaching [my daughter] that each

> and every female is a princess. We are all by the right of being

> female a princess. We are all special and worthy and deserving of

> loyalty, love, pampering (by our own self and by those who love us)

> and most of all...respect.

> I got this off the newest edition of " The Little Princess " and I

> believe it to be true.

> So I do believe you are a princess, Jules. I believe that you are

> beautiful, caring, loving, respectful, talented and deserving of

all

> that in return.

[Guest guest]

Good morning all

I want to thank everyone who replied for your validation. Right now my house is

very clean. The funny thing is when I'm upset one thing that soothes me is

clean house. LOL

Right now my husband and I are basically not speaking. I am so angry and hurt.

I just don't want to say anything to him. It's like our last argument closed a

part of me and right now I don't know how to get past it. Part of me knows that

I am very wrong in acting the way I am right now. I either need to get past it

or take steps to get out of it. I am so torn in so many ways right now. Part

of me wants to tell him to get out of the house. Everyone is right. When he

talks to me that way it is verbal abuse. I'm dissapointed in myself that I

followed the same patterns I did in the past.

This has always been a pattern in my marriage. When there is a conflict my

husband reacts by putting me down in a very ugly and viscious manner. It's his

way of controlling me. I can see it for what it is. I can also see where it is

his problem, not mine. For a long time when he started putting me down part of

me would believe him. I learned to react by saying " This is verbal abuse and I

will not listen " and usually leaving the room. This usually worked.

Right now I so want him out of the house. I feel like I need time alone to

think about all this without him here. I need to process my thoughts and

feelings. I know that if I go back in the bedroom and tell him this, he's going

to say " no, he's not leaving if I want out I need to leave " . Even that is so

invalidating. The problem is always mine. He'll also say he wants to put it

all behind us and not think about it anymore. I can't do that this time. I

don't think I ever really put it behind me in the past. I'd put on my nice face

and go along with him and pretend it didn't happen. But inside I would simmer

and hate him and hate myself for putting up with it. I don't want to forget it

this time. Got a lot of thinking to do.

I've got to go and get ready for work, but I want to thank everyone for

replying.

[Guest guest]

I think many/most people on the list are " into " WAPF, own a copy of Nourishing Traditions, and recognize real dairy is the way to go. It looks to me as though you have an answer as to why real dairy is critical to good health. I'm not quite sure what you don't understand? WAPF/NT are great at supporting the immune-system.

Sharon, NH

Why is it that most people I know that eat

organic foods and a supposed vegetarian lifestyle there kids have every

imaginable food allergy etc… Our spike in also autism and other things

has my curiosity going. These are the kids you would least expect to have stuff

since they are not vaxed and eat organic foods. I guess I'm just trying

to understand when I get together sometimes with people who are into the

natural living which is what I'm into but we are into WAPF. Which is a

whole other spectrum of natural living from veganism. When I get together for a

playgroup with these other families these kids have every imaginable food allergy

to certain foods. No nuts, no dairy, no wheat, no sugar not even natural

sugar like honey, no eggs, and the list could go on and on. It puts a huge

strain on brining food to share. My 12 yr old daughter has airborne allergies

but since we have been eating very healthy organic foods and raw dairy her

allergies and asthma are a thing of the past. She used to be allergic to cats

and certain dogs but that is gone now to since we are around a lot of dogs all

the time. She used to be allergic to chocolate and strawberries when she was a

toddler but not anymore. My 3 yr old son used to get bloody diarrhea from

drinking store bought milk. Not anymore with raw. I think our diet has a lot to

do with it and the cleaning products we use in our home now.

-- Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will have plenty to eat.

[Guest guest]

I know

why our lifestyle with our kids is good. I had a very bad ordeal with a vegan

chiropractor in our area very recently and I was left shaking my head. They

think there lifestyle is far superior and they judged us very badly for our

lifestyle. At first I did not know they were vegans. Our kids are healthy etc..

Needless to say after he struck my 18 mo. old on the face when he was adjusting

her that was it we were gone! I’m now going to have to go to court to be

released out of a year long contract with this idiot. Anyways I was made to

feel horrible about myself because I am overweight and I’m not a vegan.

They think if I go on a vegan diet I will lose weight. I am now very careful

who I associate with now and go to for my health. My children were told they

were eating junk food by eating a healthy diet and my children are thin. It was

just a mess! My husband wanting me to go to these people because they were a homeschooling

family of ,8 and homebirthed, non vax and ate organically. Well it has been a

nightmare and the lady chiropractor brought up my weight issues all the time

even in public places I would run into her at. They were a husband and wife that

were chiropractors. They tried to make me feel horrible because I was

overweight and ate meat and dairy etc... My weight issues mainly have to do

with having 4 children and having my husband go off to war while being pregnant

with out 4th and gaining 72 lbs from stress. I lost 50 lbs after. Mostly

my lack of losing anymore weight is hormonal from breastfeeding but I’m

not willing to wean my almost 2 yr old child just to lose weight. They sent us

a nasty letter saying that this is all because of my weight issues and not

because he slapped my child. It has been a roller coaster over the last few

weeks trying to deal with all of this mess. So choose your health practioners

carefully!!!! I guess in my previous posts why do vegetarians think that there

diet is far superior and they are militant about it, better for them in there

kids have so many allergies to foods etc.. Why don’t they see the light

is my opinion and giving others such a hard time about eating meat and dairy

that is the WAP way. I don’t care if they are vegetarian but why are they

so hell bent on outing others down?

I think many/most people

on the list are " into " WAPF, own a copy of Nourishing Traditions, and

recognize real dairy is the way to go. It looks to me as though you have an

answer as to why real dairy is critical to good health. I'm not quite

sure what you don't understand? WAPF/NT are great at supporting the

immune-system.

Sharon, NH

[Guest guest]

If it is more than a coincidence that you notice people trying to eat

Organic have kids with problems, I would suggest that it may be a

predisposition to those problems that has sparked their interest in

healthier eating.

Constitutionally, there is a huge range in the natural health of

individuals. We all know people who eat whatever they want, feel

great, and never get sick, and we know others that try their best and

still suffer from chronic " unwellness " . For the chronically unwell,

lifestyle choices have a much bigger impact on health, and what for

one might constitute a " miracle cure " (like switching to raw dairy)

might for another be little more than what is required to continue to

get out of bed in the morning.

Eating clean food isn't the only answer in an increasingly toxic

world. Many children are born with a toxic overload, and adults

collect xenobiotics throughout their lives. Everyone will react

differently to the toxic baggage that they carry around.

[Guest guest]

,

Nuts come in all shapes, sizes and flavors. From what you

describe, you found a pair of chiropractic vegan nuts. My personal

experience with same types have been same as yours, so I just grin

and nod my head and avoid them like the plague they are upon my soul.

Personally, I can look at my teeth and digestive tract and tell I

am supposed to be omnivorus! Fruits, vegetables, meat, fish, etc....

make a BALANCED diet!

I was blessed by being born and raised in East Tennessee from

family lines that had been in the Appalachian mountains since the

1700s. On my father's side of the family they had been farmers. I

remember that a trip to the grocery store once a week for his parents

meant maybe two bags of groceries- sugar, salt, flour, cornmeal,

Wheaties, etc.... Until I was about five they kept a family cow,

raised their own pigs and kept chickens. My grandfather was in his

late 80s when he passed and my grandmother in her mid 90s. They

always had a garden until after he died, too. Going down into the

cellar at their house was like entering a well stock grocery store-

home canned tomatoes, corn, beans, beets, etc....

Now, they ate good, nothing fancy, but just good food- three

solid meals a day. Fresh in season, canned or frozen when not. And,

they ate meat (mostly chicken they grew themselves, and pork,

including sausage and bacon!), butter, eggs, and so forth. There was

ALWAYS bread at ever meal, too, either 'light bread' or 'corn bread.'

My grandmother told me many, many, times that the best things

that ever happened in her lifetime were vaccines, antibiotics, and

electricity. She had first hand lived the reality of doing without

all three meant. When we visited cemetaries for decoration days she

could tell me all about that row of little short graves with little

plain stone markers that went around the edge of the larger

graves.....children who died of things we don't even THINK about

today because of vaccinations and antibiotics.

I have also visited the grave of my great, great grand parents

and thier infant daughter who died after drinking poison milk, too.

There is a plant that comes up early in the spring around here which

a well fed cow won't touch. But, back in those times things were

harder and this particular cow was hungry enough to eat it. My

great, grand father should have also died, too, as he was just about

four and probably still drinking milk.

On my mother's side, they had been farmers until coalmining came

into the mountains in the early 1900s. My maternal grandmother lost

both her parents to TB and I had two of my mom's sisters that had it

but lived. THANK GOD that the combination of the killing off of all

the wild cloven hoofed animals (deer, elk, buffalo) and

pasteurization of milk enabled TB to almost be eradicated. I

say 'almost' because it's still there, lurking in wild populations as

the recent Michigan outbreak in dairy cattle proved.

When was the last time we had a polio epidemic? I was born just

after the successful vaccination programs, but still remember lining

up after church on 'Polio Sunday' to get vaccinated. Those in leg

braces and even iron lungs were personally known to me, too, that

were born before that vaccine existed. Again, THANK GOD for modern

medicine.

To those who don't vaccinate and have such a twisted view of how

good we have it?? I would love to ship them all to a third world

country and watch them try to assimalate THAT 'natural' way of living

LOL. Death is natural as heck, you know? Those who don't vaccinate

are safe here in the USA because the rest of us DO vaccinate!

Yes, I understand that there is good dirt and there is bad dirt

out there. Having exposure to good dirt doesn't put babies in short

little graves nor does it cause adults to cough thereselves to death

with TB. I LIKE MODERN MEDICINE!!! We just need to find the balance

that is now lacking where we use the good parts and don't over do it

to point of being a NUT! Living on concrete and being a super clean

freak is not healthy, either. Balance is what is required.

What I want is to be able to buy raw products if that's what I

want. I do NOT want a 3000 cow dairy producing those raw products,

either!!!

It's sad that you had such a horrible experience. Personally I

have found the more I fixate on my weight, the more likely I am to

gain rather than lose. What worked for me in the long run was a 12

Step Program that helped me understand and love me.... that

translated into less stress and more fun in my life and things

improved. And, none of those folks EVER made any attack upon me,

either, because they knew firsthand that was spiritually damaging!

Donna

Safehaven Nubians

Dandridge, TN

>

> I know why our lifestyle with our kids is good. I had a very bad

ordeal with

> a vegan chiropractor in our area very recently and I was left

shaking my

> head. They think there lifestyle is far superior and they judged us

very

> badly for our lifestyle. At first I did not know they were vegans.

Our kids

> are healthy etc.. Needless to say after he struck my 18 mo. old on

the face

> when he was adjusting her that was it we were gone! I'm now going

to have to

> go to court to be released out of a year long contract with this

idiot.

> Anyways I was made to feel horrible about myself because I am

overweight and

> I'm not a vegan. They think if I go on a vegan diet I will lose

weight. I am

> now very careful who I associate with now and go to for my health.

My

> children were told they were eating junk food by eating a healthy

diet and

> my children are thin. It was just a mess! My husband wanting me to

go to

> these people because they were a homeschooling family of ,8 and

homebirthed,

> non vax and ate organically. Well it has been a nightmare and the

lady

> chiropractor brought up my weight issues all the time even in

public places

> I would run into her at. They were a husband and wife that were

> chiropractors. They tried to make me feel horrible because I was

overweight

> and ate meat and dairy etc... My weight issues mainly have to do

with having

> 4 children and having my husband go off to war while being pregnant

with out

> 4th and gaining 72 lbs from stress. I lost 50 lbs after. Mostly my

lack of

> losing anymore weight is hormonal from breastfeeding but I'm not

willing to

> wean my almost 2 yr old child just to lose weight. They sent us a

nasty

> letter saying that this is all because of my weight issues and not

because

> he slapped my child. It has been a roller coaster over the last few

weeks

> trying to deal with all of this mess. So choose your health

practioners

> carefully!!!! I guess in my previous posts why do vegetarians think

that

> there diet is far superior and they are militant about it, better

for them

> in there kids have so many allergies to foods etc.. Why don't they

see the

> light is my opinion and giving others such a hard time about eating

meat and

> dairy that is the WAP way. I don't care if they are vegetarian but

why are

> they so hell bent on outing others down?

>

>

>

> I think many/most people on the list are " into " WAPF, own a copy of

> Nourishing Traditions, and recognize real dairy is the way to go.

It looks

> to me as though you have an answer as to why real dairy is critical

to good

> health. I'm not quite sure what you don't understand? WAPF/NT are

great at

> supporting the immune-system.

> Sharon, NH

>

[Guest guest]

I think what you are saying may be why are vegans unhealthy? That is more likely the common denominator in the unhealthy friends than why are people that eay organic unhealthy and your experience has been so different. I do not personally believe people were designed to be vegan. but I am sure there are lots of links out there that could explain a lot about this.

Debbie ChikouskyManitoba, Canadagdchik@...http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/

[Guest guest]

I think that what is happening is that meat eating people are

becoming the untouchable caste in the modern world. The reason

Jewish people don't eat pork is that raising hogs wasn't

environmentally sound at that time that the religious rules were

being formed. Hindus don't eat much beef because raising cattle for

food wasn't environmentally sound. It was better to raise them for

labor and a little milk. Beef is present in quantities that feed a

few...so such people were given lower status. Other people are

trading off fewer healthy opportunities for higher status. It's

just like geese are only slaughtered here when their numbers

are " excess " of what lawn-owners care to tolerate, and they are to

be eaten only by the lowest and the lowliest, the homeless. It's

just like pigeons are flying and bugs are flying all around us and

we don't eat them.

The vegans want you to die out and the human race evolve into grass-

eating monkeys.

LAURA.

>

> I know why our lifestyle with our kids is good. I had a very bad

ordeal with

> a vegan chiropractor in our area very recently and I was left

shaking my

> head. They think there lifestyle is far superior and they judged

us very

> badly for our lifestyle. At first I did not know they were vegans.

Our kids

> are healthy etc.. Needless to say after he struck my 18 mo. old on

the face

> when he was adjusting her that was it we were gone! I'm now going

to have to

> go to court to be released out of a year long contract with this

idiot.

> Anyways I was made to feel horrible about myself because I am

overweight and

> I'm not a vegan. They think if I go on a vegan diet I will lose

weight. I am

> now very careful who I associate with now and go to for my health.

My

> children were told they were eating junk food by eating a healthy

diet and

> my children are thin. It was just a mess! My husband wanting me to

go to

> these people because they were a homeschooling family of ,8 and

homebirthed,

> non vax and ate organically. Well it has been a nightmare and the

lady

> chiropractor brought up my weight issues all the time even in

public places

> I would run into her at. They were a husband and wife that were

> chiropractors. They tried to make me feel horrible because I was

overweight

> and ate meat and dairy etc... My weight issues mainly have to do

with having

> 4 children and having my husband go off to war while being

pregnant with out

> 4th and gaining 72 lbs from stress. I lost 50 lbs after. Mostly my

lack of

> losing anymore weight is hormonal from breastfeeding but I'm not

willing to

> wean my almost 2 yr old child just to lose weight. They sent us a

nasty

> letter saying that this is all because of my weight issues and not

because

> he slapped my child. It has been a roller coaster over the last

few weeks

> trying to deal with all of this mess. So choose your health

practioners

> carefully!!!! I guess in my previous posts why do vegetarians

think that

> there diet is far superior and they are militant about it, better

for them

> in there kids have so many allergies to foods etc.. Why don't they

see the

> light is my opinion and giving others such a hard time about

eating meat and

> dairy that is the WAP way. I don't care if they are vegetarian but

why are

> they so hell bent on outing others down?

>

>

>

> I think many/most people on the list are " into " WAPF, own a copy of

> Nourishing Traditions, and recognize real dairy is the way to go.

It looks

> to me as though you have an answer as to why real dairy is

critical to good

> health. I'm not quite sure what you don't understand? WAPF/NT

are great at

> supporting the immune-system.

> Sharon, NH

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Donna,

But you DO realize right, that the TB in milk back in the day was caused from

workers who had full-blown cases of TB and were hacking and coughing into

the milking buckets?

In Dr. Ron Schmid's The Untold Story of Milk, he states that research shows that

bovine TB is not transmissible to humans, and that the TB being passed in milk

to people was directly from people. It seemed like the milk was causing the TB

but it was not.

Of course, the milk was very poor quality, because the cows were being fed

distillery waste as their food. That milk was very low in nutrition, but not

diseased. No, this was not what caused the TB to be in the milk. It was mainly

because of the open-milking sytem of hand and bucket, unlike the closed-

milking systems we have today. And of course, human milkers aren't going

around coughing and carrying full-blown TB anymore as well.

Also, I do agree with you that vaccines could be a good thing, but the problem

is the substance that they suspend the vaccine in--thermerisol and mercury. If

they

could come up with some other suspension liquid, I have no problem with letting

the body be exposed to a mini-virus early on and building up immunities to it.

It makes perfect sense. But what doesn't make sense is putting a toxic

substance

in the injection....

Modern medicine does have it's place and it can definitely save lives

but there is wrong-headed thinking everywhere, and you just have to be research

to find the truth. One can't just trust all doctors hands down, after all they

are

only human and make mistakes too.

:-)

D.

>

> ,

> Nuts come in all shapes, sizes and flavors. From what you

> describe, you found a pair of chiropractic vegan nuts.

THANK GOD that the combination of the killing off of all

the wild cloven hoofed animals (deer, elk, buffalo) and

pasteurization of milk enabled TB to almost be eradicated. I

say 'almost' because it's still there, lurking in wild populations as

the recent Michigan outbreak in dairy cattle proved.

[Guest guest]

On Jun 18, 2006, at 8:54 AM, RawDairy wrote:Re: trying to understandPosted by: "baker_horace" baker_horace@...   baker_horaceSat Jun 17, 2006 5:57 am (PST)If it is more than a coincidence that you notice people trying to eatOrganic have kids with problems, I would suggest that it may be apredisposition to those problems that has sparked their interest inhealthier eating.I agree so much!  People just don't see the value in paying more and the extra-effort required until there is a life-changing illness in a family member or close friend.Sandy

[Guest guest]

,

You must not be Celtic? Go read up on the cattle cults. People

didn't eat beef on a daily basis due to lack of refrigeration. You

slaughtered a beef when you wanted to feed the whole tribe, not just

your family. Cattle were VITAL to the development and growth of

civilization (cities, towns) because they provided both the labor and

the 'bank' to hold onto wealth. You would not starve if you had

cattle.

Pigs were unclean in ancient times because they would show up at

battle scenes (or anywhere else there were human corpes) and clean

up. Nobody wanted to eat THAT meat. And, it was hard, if not

impossible to fence hogs to ensure they never did get any access to

any dead, human or animal.

In countries where there is not so much food freely, cheaply

available they DO eat pigeons and they are actually quite good. In

fact, we owe the pigeon populations of the cities to the Romans (and

probably before them other ancient peoples in cities.) Pigeons were

a VERY vital source of protien for the people living in Rome. You

could not throw a stone, hardly, in Rome without hitting a pigeon

house. When Rome fell and the dark ages came, those semidomesticated

pigeons went feral and spread out across the world. Remember Europe

only had waterfowl (ducks, geese) but no chickens until well into the

middle ages. Pigeons fell from favor after chickens were widespread

for a nice, tidy, daily supply of meat/eggs.

The vegans can want in one hand and poop in the other and see

which one fills up first! Meat eating has a long history and it is

not going to die out any time soon. VBG

I have read some fantastic books lately about the history of

agriculture both in New World and in the Old World. I was amazed by

how ignorant I was about the history of our foods.

Donna

Safehaven Nubians

Dandridge, TN

> >

> > I know why our lifestyle with our kids is good. I had a very bad

> ordeal with

> > a vegan chiropractor in our area very recently and I was left

> shaking my

> > head. They think there lifestyle is far superior and they judged

> us very

> > badly for our lifestyle. At first I did not know they were

vegans.

> Our kids

> > are healthy etc.. Needless to say after he struck my 18 mo. old

on

> the face

> > when he was adjusting her that was it we were gone! I'm now going

> to have to

> > go to court to be released out of a year long contract with this

> idiot.

> > Anyways I was made to feel horrible about myself because I am

> overweight and

> > I'm not a vegan. They think if I go on a vegan diet I will lose

> weight. I am

> > now very careful who I associate with now and go to for my

health.

> My

> > children were told they were eating junk food by eating a healthy

> diet and

> > my children are thin. It was just a mess! My husband wanting me

to

> go to

> > these people because they were a homeschooling family of ,8 and

> homebirthed,

> > non vax and ate organically. Well it has been a nightmare and the

> lady

> > chiropractor brought up my weight issues all the time even in

> public places

> > I would run into her at. They were a husband and wife that were

> > chiropractors. They tried to make me feel horrible because I was

> overweight

> > and ate meat and dairy etc... My weight issues mainly have to do

> with having

> > 4 children and having my husband go off to war while being

> pregnant with out

> > 4th and gaining 72 lbs from stress. I lost 50 lbs after. Mostly

my

> lack of

> > losing anymore weight is hormonal from breastfeeding but I'm not

> willing to

> > wean my almost 2 yr old child just to lose weight. They sent us a

> nasty

> > letter saying that this is all because of my weight issues and

not

> because

> > he slapped my child. It has been a roller coaster over the last

> few weeks

> > trying to deal with all of this mess. So choose your health

> practioners

> > carefully!!!! I guess in my previous posts why do vegetarians

> think that

> > there diet is far superior and they are militant about it, better

> for them

> > in there kids have so many allergies to foods etc.. Why don't

they

> see the

> > light is my opinion and giving others such a hard time about

> eating meat and

> > dairy that is the WAP way. I don't care if they are vegetarian

but

> why are

> > they so hell bent on outing others down?

> >

> >

> >

> > I think many/most people on the list are " into " WAPF, own a copy

of

> > Nourishing Traditions, and recognize real dairy is the way to go.

> It looks

> > to me as though you have an answer as to why real dairy is

> critical to good

> > health. I'm not quite sure what you don't understand? WAPF/NT

> are great at

> > supporting the immune-system.

> > Sharon, NH

> >

>

[Guest guest]

The doctor is WRONG. TB that is spread from human to cow and back to

human is going to kill you and the cow, too.

You drink milk from a cow with bovine TB and you will get TB, most

likely. Like I said, I have personal, up close experience with

family members who died from it, and had it and recovered.

Give me WHATEVER is supspended in vaccine rather than smallpox,

polio, mumps, measles, tetanus, diptheria, whooping cough, etc...

Like everything else, vaccine technology has evolved over time to

point that they are much better than ever in past, both in

effectiveness and in not causing side effects.

I vaccinate my animals, too. Buried a few cows that died from

blackleg and have seen neighbors have a run of leptospirosis caused

abortions in their cows. You ain't lived until you been in the

middle of a full blown rabies epidemic among the skunks, raccoons,

foxes, coyotes. Several times in my lifetime we have been literally

under siege with rabid animals trying to get into the house,

attacking the livestock/yard pets, etc.... Thank goodness for rabies

vaccine!

Donna

Safehaven Nubians

Dandridge, TN

> >

> > ,

> > Nuts come in all shapes, sizes and flavors. From what you

> > describe, you found a pair of chiropractic vegan nuts.

>

> THANK GOD that the combination of the killing off of all

> the wild cloven hoofed animals (deer, elk, buffalo) and

> pasteurization of milk enabled TB to almost be eradicated. I

> say 'almost' because it's still there, lurking in wild populations

as

> the recent Michigan outbreak in dairy cattle proved.

>

[Guest guest]

Onus is on you, Donna, to disprove the assertion of Dr. Ron Schmid that bovine Tuberculosis is not transmissable to human beings. Perhaps you can point us to the peer-reviewed studies proving otherwise?

As for your idea that vaccines are somehow "much better than ever in past" ... you are badly deceived. I urge you to get the facts think for yourself and so realize that the entire vaccination industry is premised on one of the most monstrous hoaxes in history. Those of us who have examined what the vaccination lobby pretends in support of the efficacy of their products, are astounded at the LACK of real science.

What goes on in this industry is nothing short of criminal activity. And if you think that's an extreme statement, go read the charges of criminal negligence against those who were running the blood business in Canada and France ... carrying on extremely profitable enterprises ... knowing full well that the products were literally poisonous.

Those who have confidence in vaccinations = you take the dose of monkey pus which has been allocated to me for the upcoming "national emergency", please! But don't come crying to me for 'damages' from the public purse if you suffer one of the side affects ... knowledge of which the vaccine industry takes great care to hide. __________________________________>> The doctor is WRONG. TB that is spread from human to cow and back to > human is going to kill you and the cow, too. > You drink milk from a cow with bovine TB and you will get TB, most likely. Like I said, I have personal, up close experience with family members who died from it, and had it and recovered. >

Give me WHATEVER is supspended in vaccine rather than smallpox, > polio, mumps, measles, tetanus, diptheria, whooping cough, etc...> Like everything else, vaccine technology has evolved over time to > point that they are much better than ever in past, both in > effectiveness and in not causing side effects.

[Guest guest]

Yes I’m meaning

vegans not people who eat organically.

I think what you are saying may be

why are vegans unhealthy? That is more likely the common denominator in

the unhealthy friends than why are people that eay organic unhealthy and your

experience has been so different. I do not personally believe people were

designed to be vegan. but I am sure there are lots of links out there

that could explain a lot about this.

[Guest guest]

Gordon and others

The transmission of tuberculosis (both human and bovine) is extremely complex, technical and certainly burdened with incredible unsupported medical dogma. I have completed an annotated review of the topic aimed specifically at those of us who drink fresh nutrient-rich unprocessed milk and who hear the constant litany that drinking raw milk is a health risk and you can die. Tuberculosis is often linked to this fear tactic. My review should be published in Wise Traditions in the future. I downloaded it to this list awhile ago, but I am not sure that it was added to the archive files.

It is not worth getting into the details necessary to give a complete and factual explanation in this thread since it is a minor importance to the discussion. But because many of us on this list try hard to keep our information accurate and not perpetuate incomplete information that may be passed on by others as coming from reliable people who are not influenced by the litany of unsupported medical dogma; I will make a couple of general statements based on contemporary studies with reliable techniques that have withstood the test of reproducibility and critical review. And these observations are made in countries which have VERY low incidence of bovine tuberculosis in cattle herds. In countries with very high rates of tuberculosis in cattle it is a lot harder to be convinced of the findings.

Bovine tuberculosis can be transmitted from cows to people. It is remarkably rare, even when people are in constant close contact with cows who are infected. I like Ron have not been able to find a single credible case of bovine tuberculosis transmitted from a cow to a human by drinking milk.

Transmission from cows to humans occurs most frequently (remember extremely rare) by breathing in aerosols containing the bacteria.

Bovine tuberculosis has been transmitted from humans to humans (even more incredibly rare) by airborne.

Bovine tuberculosis was probably more common in the USA in the past. But the reduction in human cases had nothing to do with pasteurizing milk. Bovine tuberculosis was nearly eliminated from the dairy herds in the US, by herd management. And the current efforts to eliminate the rare infected cattle are focused totally on herd management.

Ron has seen my review. His statements are focused on the reality of drinking raw milk. When newspapers from Florida to Alaska report a case of bovine tuberculosis in a Michigan deer hunter and they ALL include a statement from some public health official that people should not drink raw milk because of the risk of tuberculosis; you must yell from the top of your lungs.... this is NOT TRUE!! But that doesn't mean that bovine tuberculosis couldn't be transmitted from cows to humans, not even that bovine tuberculosis can never be found in milk (it can be). It is just that the conditions for such transmission and contamination are so incredibly unlikely to occur today in the USA that even those of us who are drinking raw milk every day should not be the least concerned. And I repeat, neither Ron or I have ever been able to find a credible case of a human becoming infected with bovine tuberculosis from a cow by drinking the cow's milk.

Ted Beals

Re: trying to understand

Onus is on you, Donna, to disprove the assertion of Dr. Ron Schmid that bovine Tuberculosis is not transmissable to human beings. Perhaps you can point us to the peer-reviewed studies proving otherwise?

As for your idea that vaccines are somehow "much better than ever in past" ... you are badly deceived. I urge you to get the facts think for yourself and so realize that the entire vaccination industry is premised on one of the most monstrous hoaxes in history. Those of us who have examined what the vaccination lobby pretends in support of the efficacy of their products, are astounded at the LACK of real science.

What goes on in this industry is nothing short of criminal activity. And if you think that's an extreme statement, go read the charges of criminal negligence against those who were running the blood business in Canada and France ... carrying on extremely profitable enterprises ... knowing full well that the products were literally poisonous.

Those who have confidence in vaccinations = you take the dose of monkey pus which has been allocated to me for the upcoming "national emergency", please! But don't come crying to me for 'damages' from the public purse if you suffer one of the side affects ... knowledge of which the vaccine industry takes great care to hide. __________________________________>> The doctor is WRONG. TB that is spread from human to cow and back to > human is going to kill you and the cow, too. > You drink milk from a cow with bovine TB and you will get TB, most likely. Like I said, I have personal, up close experience with family members who died from it, and had it and recovered. >

Give me WHATEVER is supspended in vaccine rather than smallpox, > polio, mumps, measles, tetanus, diptheria, whooping cough, etc...> Like everything else, vaccine technology has evolved over time to > point that they are much better than ever in past, both in > effectiveness and in not causing side effects.