Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 We've been noticing our jersey nosing around her hay the last couple of days and not eating as much as normal. She still goes for her supplements same as always. We tried a different kind of hay and it didn't make a difference. Any thoughts? Thanks, Meg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Is it heavy cut, i.e., not much leaves and heavy stems? If so, she's looking for finer cut (dairy quality) alfalfa that has more protein in order to stay warmer for the winter. Just my opinion, but this time of year, I've found they really want their protein and finer cut hay, without the blue flowers really gives them that. K.C. Re: jersey eating less > We've been noticing our jersey nosing around her hay the last couple of > days and not eating as much as normal. She still goes for her > supplements same as always. We tried a different kind of hay and it > didn't make a difference. Any thoughts? > > Thanks, > Meg > > > > > PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING! > Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/ > > Archive search: http://onibasu.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 The issue with the soluble protein levels in alfalfa is relevant. The key is to balance the ration accordingly. Alfalfa hay contains far less soluble protein than alfalfa haylage even if they have the same crude protein content. At some points soluble protein source will be needed in the diet. (hence the use of a small amount urea is some dairy diets). Soybean meal will bring is some SP also. Any corn or other cereal grain offsets the SP level. Good fresh grass pasture has "extremely" high soluble protein content. "Dairy Quality"- always feed the best quality to your cows +150 RFV. Too good of hay can be a problem- albeit a good problem. This may cause the dairyman to reduce the amount of this "rocket fuel" fed to reduce the rate of passage throught the rumen. The goal in the ruminant diet is to keep the feed in the rumen for a degree of time so that the bugs can break it down and utilize the feed. A balanced dairy ration is the goal that can be accomplished so long as it is balanced and managed to maintain the desired outcome. Re your Jersey: has her milk production slipped, how is her water consumption, does she eat her grain, is she close to calving? Re: Re: jersey eating less I don't know where you got that information about alfalfa. That's all cows are fed here and in many other states. We get the highest possible protein hay, i.e. "Dairy Quality". It wouldn't be called that if it wasn't good for them. Over time people would report the problems you claim and stop feeding it. I know several people that have fed this to their dairy cows and they have all lived extremely long lives with no problems at all. Alfalfa does not cause mastitis or any of the other problems you bring up. That's just flat not true. I think you have gotten some bad advice.K.C.----- Original Message ----- > The hay sounds fine. Cows prefer a nice mix and it is far less> potent. A little alfalfa is fine, but it has far too much soluble> protein which floods the blood stream with urea nitrogen. It then> takes energy to excrete the excess. The excess protein can cause> mastitis and breeding problems as it passes through the milk and> reproductive tract ( called milk urea nitrogen and blood urea> nitrogen). I realize some only feed alfalfa, but don't feel bad if you> can't get any. My cows like your type of hay much better.>> Cheyenne>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 High MUN and BUN levels will cause reproductive problems. Also it means if the levels are higher >15, then you are losing milk production by feeding too much protein per energy level in the diet. Too low and your losing milk from not feeding enough. Also ties back to the issue of soluble protein. Re: Re: jersey eating less For real information on urea nitrogen, go to this link: http://cahpwww.vet.upenn.edu/mun/mun_info.htmlIt totally disproves what you say and in fact the urea, blood and protein is absolutely necessary to break down ammonia so the system does not become toxic and urea is present naturally in milk. Blood urea levels vary depending on diet, but it is certainly not a bad thing and does not cause problems....in fact, quite the opposite.K.C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 It is exactly what I said. They tell in the article that alfalfa raises the level. That it takes energy to use up the excess. And that too much causes problems. They could have given more detail on the problems. If you look at other articles I'm sure they'll do a better job. Like I said some is ok. It actually would be a protein suppliment if high protein. At ripe stage it is like brush, which is what it is. If you like it go for it. I'm not telling you what to do only giving others options and information to make choices with. Cheyenne > >> > >> > Have you noticed any change in milk or swollen quarters? Has her > >> > manure changed? What is the hay like? > >> > >> No change in quality of milk, but quantity has dropped in 1/2. No udder > >> changes. Haven't seen her poop. No sign of diarrhea. The hay is a grass > >> mix.. some clover. We tried giving her some of the square bales that > >> are from a different source. Not at all moldy. No difference. She just > >> keeps nosing through it and then looking over at the house like, " come > >> on, guys, feed me something. " She gobbles up all her extras that we > >> regularly give her.. beets, rice bran, kelp, EM's, molasses, azomite, > >> bokashi. She looks healthy and alert, pee is normal. We've had her for > >> 2-1/2 years and she's never done this before. Other cow and calf are > >> fine and eating the hay like normal. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING! > > Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information! > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/ > > > > Archive search: http://onibasu.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 We have an old (32yr) horse, thorougbred who wasn't eating the 4 way hay we gave him and the vet said his back teeth were all worn down. We give him all the stuff you mentioned and soaked hay pellets along with some orchard grass and he gobbles it up, so it could be the teeth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 I guess I'm doing the right thing by Margie and Princess then. They get more alfalfa hay in the winter because there's no grass and in the spring and summer, they have grass, so they get a little less. Margie is producing 2.5 gallons per milking and I'm only milking once a day now, so that's pretty good. She naturally went from 3 gallons twice a day to 2.5 once a day. Cows will adjust their production for what is being taken. She hasn't lost production at all since I went to once a day. I do expect her to slow down a little because that's natural, the longer into lactation she goes. I've never heard of overfeeding alfalfa to the point of having a problem. What I have noticed is that cows pretty much eat what they need and will come back to it later if they get hungry. I try not to feed so much that they have bunches left over. Something other people do in the winter is feed some oat hay or wheat straw to build up heat. I know if I throw some straw into the mix, say for bedding, they will eat some of it, but get tired of it real fast and want their alfalfa. As a side note: I just hope all you folks appreciate your farmers, if you are buying milk from people who hand milk in the winter. I have to tell you that milking in 7-10 deg. isn't easy. I've had to wear a silk glove on my right hand and got a $1 pair of gloves that I cut the thumb, forefinger and middle fingers out of so I can milk and not freeze the other two fingers. It's just really bad in the mornings now. But, it's supposed to go back up into the 20's by Sunday morning and into the 30's for the highs. Time for shorts (LOL). K.C. Re: Re: jersey eating less For real information on urea nitrogen, go to this link: http://cahpwww.vet.upenn.edu/mun/mun_info.htmlIt totally disproves what you say and in fact the urea, blood and protein is absolutely necessary to break down ammonia so the system does not become toxic and urea is present naturally in milk. Blood urea levels vary depending on diet, but it is certainly not a bad thing and does not cause problems....in fact, quite the opposite.K.C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 I don't know what you refer to when you say it's " Brush " . Alfalfa is a legume and that's where you get the protein. All I can say is my girls and all the cattle I've ever heard about, beef included, except in those places that can't grow alfalfa, eat alfalfa year round in addition to pasture and do not have any problems with it. Moreover, when they cut alfalfa, they don't just bale it up. It is cured first. It has to be. You can not feed green, fresh growing or just cut alfalfa to cattle because that will kill them. Even when the farmers sell " green cut " to the dairies, it is cured first. The only difference is it is delivered un-baled. The only time you can turn cattle out onto an alfalfa field is once it's thoroughly frozen. That removes the toxins. I know the farmers around here turn their cattle out onto their fields once there has been a hard freeze here. Naturally, if talking about mega dairies where they feed a lot of crap mixed in with the good alfalfa, I can see where problems may occur. K.C. Re: jersey eating less > > > It is exactly what I said. They tell in the article that alfalfa > raises the level. That it takes energy to use up the excess. And that > too much causes problems. They could have given more detail on the > problems. If you look at other articles I'm sure they'll do a better job. > Like I said some is ok. It actually would be a protein suppliment if > high protein. At ripe stage it is like brush, which is what it is. If > you like it go for it. I'm not telling you what to do only giving > others options and information to make choices with. > > Cheyenne > > >> >> >> >> > Have you noticed any change in milk or swollen quarters? Has her >> >> > manure changed? What is the hay like? >> >> >> >> No change in quality of milk, but quantity has dropped in 1/2. No > udder >> >> changes. Haven't seen her poop. No sign of diarrhea. The hay is a > grass >> >> mix.. some clover. We tried giving her some of the square bales that >> >> are from a different source. Not at all moldy. No difference. She > just >> >> keeps nosing through it and then looking over at the house like, > " come >> >> on, guys, feed me something. " She gobbles up all her extras that we >> >> regularly give her.. beets, rice bran, kelp, EM's, molasses, azomite, >> >> bokashi. She looks healthy and alert, pee is normal. We've had > her for >> >> 2-1/2 years and she's never done this before. Other cow and calf are >> >> fine and eating the hay like normal. >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING! >> > Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information! >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/ >> > >> > Archive search: http://onibasu.com >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 That makes sense. If their mouth is bothering them, hay is the last thing they will eat. Good advice. K.C. re: jersey eating less > We have an old (32yr) horse, thorougbred who wasn't eating the 4 way > hay we gave him and the vet said his back teeth were all worn down. We > give him all the stuff you mentioned and soaked hay pellets along with > some orchard grass and he gobbles it up, so it could be the teeth. > > > > > > > PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING! > Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/ > > Archive search: http://onibasu.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 You make me laugh, KC. How you come up with this is amazing. The reason they wait till after frost is because alfalfa is so finicky, if you graze it before a frost it is much more prone to winterkill. I live in the dairy state. I see all my neighbors playing the alfalfa game. I see the vet in their driveway, the rendering truck pick up their dead cows. Watch them replant their froze out stands, hear their complaints, go to their auctions, blah, blah, blah. There are multiple reasons certainly, but in the grazing circles farmers are figuring out the reality. Cows and grass go together as they have for centuries. If they have no choice they will eat it, and I'm not saying they won't otherwise, but it won't kill them if they eat it fresh. Unless you're talking about the potential of bloat. Most graziers start out with a fair bit of alfalfa in their pasture as they grew it when conventional. It dies out quickly and grass fills in. Now the profit is in the farmers pocket. Keep access to straw as at least your cow can get some fiber to soak up the protein. A lot of big dairies are feeding straw in their TMR to offset the potent protein problems they're running into. Even a pile of corn silage isn't enough. Cheyenne > >> >> > >> >> > Have you noticed any change in milk or swollen quarters? Has her > >> >> > manure changed? What is the hay like? > >> >> > >> >> No change in quality of milk, but quantity has dropped in 1/2. No > > udder > >> >> changes. Haven't seen her poop. No sign of diarrhea. The hay is a > > grass > >> >> mix.. some clover. We tried giving her some of the square bales that > >> >> are from a different source. Not at all moldy. No difference. She > > just > >> >> keeps nosing through it and then looking over at the house like, > > " come > >> >> on, guys, feed me something. " She gobbles up all her extras that we > >> >> regularly give her.. beets, rice bran, kelp, EM's, molasses, azomite, > >> >> bokashi. She looks healthy and alert, pee is normal. We've had > > her for > >> >> 2-1/2 years and she's never done this before. Other cow and calf are > >> >> fine and eating the hay like normal. > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING! > >> > Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information! > >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/ > >> > > >> > Archive search: http://onibasu.com > >> > > >> > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 I don't know what goes on in your state. Maybe they are spraying their fields with some kind of chemicals. They don't spray the alfalfa here. Traditionally, large dairies have major problems with mastitis and other infections because of the way the cows are kept and yes they die young. That isn't the case here. The small dairy that I am very familiar with has had no deaths in the last couple of years, save one old girl that was 23 or 25 and one cow that had nerve damage and couldn't get up due to a calf damaging a nerve during birth. I think that cow was well into her teens. Not all dairies keep their cattle in this kind of condition for sure. Lorie and her mom keep their cows like I keep my two....only on a much bigger scale. They are pampered. Small dairies that I have been introduced to here in this state all feed alfalfa and they don't have any problems at all. The mega daires here are different. They all have many deaths during the year due to the total lack of good care and all the garbage they feed the cows. But that goes on all over the country with mega dairies. To each his own. I don't feed any silage. Just good, dairy quality alfalfa and grass and veggies and fruits and some grain at milking time. I will continue to do this. My girls have always been 100% healthy and the only time the vet has come out was when I needed to have papers/vaccines for traveling out of the state and for the bangs vaccine. What people do here with their alfalfa fields is obviously different from where you are. Maybe that's why cows don't fare well on alfalfa there. I don't know. But, I'm glad I was able to give you a giggle. I know several alfalfa growers and they put the cows out there after the freeze for the reasons I've said. Believe it or not. No sweat off my brow. K.C. Re: jersey eating less > > You make me laugh, KC. How you come up with this is amazing. The > reason they wait till after frost is because alfalfa is so finicky, if > you graze it before a frost it is much more prone to winterkill. > > I live in the dairy state. I see all my neighbors playing the > alfalfa game. I see the vet in their driveway, the rendering truck > pick up their dead cows. Watch them replant their froze out stands, > hear their complaints, go to their auctions, blah, blah, blah. > > There are multiple reasons certainly, but in the grazing circles > farmers are figuring out the reality. Cows and grass go together as > they have for centuries. If they have no choice they will eat it, and > I'm not saying they won't otherwise, but it won't kill them if they > eat it fresh. Unless you're talking about the potential of bloat. Most > graziers start out with a fair bit of alfalfa in their pasture as they > grew it when conventional. It dies out quickly and grass fills in. Now > the profit is in the farmers pocket. > > Keep access to straw as at least your cow can get some fiber to soak > up the protein. A lot of big dairies are feeding straw in their TMR to > offset the potent protein problems they're running into. Even a pile > of corn silage isn't enough. > > Cheyenne > > >> >> >> >> >> >> > Have you noticed any change in milk or swollen quarters? > Has her >> >> >> > manure changed? What is the hay like? >> >> >> >> >> >> No change in quality of milk, but quantity has dropped in 1/2. No >> > udder >> >> >> changes. Haven't seen her poop. No sign of diarrhea. The hay is a >> > grass >> >> >> mix.. some clover. We tried giving her some of the square > bales that >> >> >> are from a different source. Not at all moldy. No difference. She >> > just >> >> >> keeps nosing through it and then looking over at the house like, >> > " come >> >> >> on, guys, feed me something. " She gobbles up all her extras > that we >> >> >> regularly give her.. beets, rice bran, kelp, EM's, molasses, > azomite, >> >> >> bokashi. She looks healthy and alert, pee is normal. We've had >> > her for >> >> >> 2-1/2 years and she's never done this before. Other cow and > calf are >> >> >> fine and eating the hay like normal. >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING! >> >> > Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information! >> >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/ >> >> > >> >> > Archive search: http://onibasu.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2005 Report Share Posted December 10, 2005 Since I'm only milking one cow at this time, I usually use the regular latex gloves that I get in packs of 10, but I will look into the ones you suggest. I knew there was something out there because my friend Lorie uses gloves like you are talking about. Thanks for the tip.K.C. xxxx Addtionally, Staph aureus is a natural resident bacteria on hands and causes some nasty contagious mastitis issues in commercial herds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2005 Report Share Posted December 10, 2005 Toxins may have been the wrong word. Green alfalfa is HOT. Yes they can bloat up and that will kill them. I planted some alfalfa in with the pasture mix. But, we are too dry here for it. I have to plant grass/pasture mix that is suitable for my area. So, I leave the alfalfa growing up to the experts to grow it properly and cut and bale it for me. Re: Re: jersey eating less ....except in those places that can't grow alfalfa, eat alfalfa year round in addition to pasture and do not have any problems with it. Moreover, when they cut alfalfa, they don't just bale it up. It is cured first. It has to be. You can not feed green, fresh growing or just cut alfalfa to cattle because that will kill them. xxxx It can be done with success. As part of a managed pasture system grazing alfalfa can be done provided the cows don't move into lush alfalfa on an empty stomach (bloating prob) and they are supplemented properly. Even when the farmers sell "green cut" to the dairies, it is cured first. The only difference is it is delivered un-baled. The only time you can turn cattle out onto an alfalfa field is once it's thoroughly frozen. That removes the toxins. xxxxxxx Toxins??? I know the farmers around here turn their cattle out onto their fields once there has been a hard freeze here.Naturally, if talking about mega dairies where they feed a lot of crap mixed in with the good alfalfa, I can see where problems may occur.K.C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2005 Report Share Posted December 10, 2005 I went to ACE this morning and they had a pack of gloves that were not Latex. Says they are good for people with allergies to Latex. But, I haven't found what they are made of. They seem a bit big for me, but I'm sure they will work. Only had one size. I'll check with the dairy supply next week. K.C. Re: Re: jersey eating less Since I'm only milking one cow at this time, I usually use the regular latex gloves that I get in packs of 10, but I will look into the ones you suggest. I knew there was something out there because my friend Lorie uses gloves like you are talking about. Thanks for the tip.K.C. xxxx Addtionally, Staph aureus is a natural resident bacteria on hands and causes some nasty contagious mastitis issues in commercial herds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.