Re: @ NORMI Becomes the Fastest Growing Organization wi thin Mold and Remediation Ind.

[Guest guest]

Dear "Quack--" There certainly are likewise good and needy people who need medicines... and who need an education... and who need food.. Somebody has to find the available resources to "buy" those needs... In your case have you looked to the traditional charity organizations? Have you tried appropriate church or philanthropic organizations?? I'm guessing there should be a number of church ministries who would love to assist you especially in the Boston area if that is where you are located. Isn't there a state commission on public housing operating within your state? I know of the one in Virginia. I'd think up there in the first colonies you'd have a state agency with a receptive ear. Ken Re: NORMI Becomes the Fastest Growing Organization wi thin Mold and Remediation Ind.Bob,These are all very valid reasons to withold access to the S520 to nonprofessionals, I agree.Do you have any referrals as to organizations or specs that are available to anyone who NEEDS to have a good guide to this kind of information? Perhaps one of the other organizations. Excuse me, but from my perspective it almost seems as if there is some kind of conspiracy by the powerful to deny people access to the information that they need to improve this situation. You people may think that this situation revolves around you and your needs.. but its a complex one.MUCH more complex like that. For every person who can afford one of your services, there are hundreds who cant. They NEED this information. If an organization exists that claims to offer it, but then doesnt in a way they can access. its almost worse than it not even existing. You should find another way to make your money. People are being hurt by this. At the very least an organization should realize that specs like this should NOT remain unavailable to the general public if it expects them to be widely accepted. Please consider this seriously.This is a health issue. You can't keep a spec closed in a health situation.

[Guest guest]

Everyone, please bear with me today. I'm a little scattered. Sometimes

my trains of thought get derailed. But I think hopefully you all

understand what I'm getting at.

If I snap at you, PLEASE don't take it personally. It isn't meant to

be so. This is a very civilized forum and I appreciate that a lot.

[Guest guest]

LiveSimply

Please provide a "name" and not just an email address/nom-de-plume.

There are many types of "standards" and all should be differently titled, but we get careless and use the terms incorrectly. Also, many organizations can write standards but they have no "teeth" unless mandated by "someone" having the authority to mandate them (almost always a government agency).

S520 has been prepared by an industry organization to help the industry, and the users of the industry's services. It has no basis in law and will not until a government agency mandates that situation by calling it up in legislation. It is very useful, however, in trying to get the industry to improve the delivery of appropriate services.

Once a standard is mature and has followed all the appropriate steps (there are many indeed) it can be called up. Until then it is proprietary to the industry organization and that is as it should be.

Please do not shoot the industry organization for trying to do the right thing. You are shooting the wrong agency. If you think a mandated standard is needed (I agree with you) then approach the proper government agency or your appropriate government representative.

Jim H. White

Re: @ NORMI Becomes the Fastest Growing Organization wi thin Mold and Remediation Ind.

But those standards are for manufacturers while any proposed IAQ-related specs impact normal people strongly.In my case, it has been in trying to get a landlord to clean up a 100 year old building to the point where it was healthy to live in. That was and is an education in itself. And not a good one.So - what standards am I or other people supposed to point to? Not only do we need standards, they need to have teeth and they need to be publically available. I am not saying that S520 or whatever other standards exist need to be THE standard, but simply that whatever standard is deigned for public use needs to be public. And it needs to be FOLLOWED.What is so hard about that to understand? If a proprietary organization produced a closed, proprietary standard for its own members use then so be it. I am not saying they should give THAT away for free. Its only if they are promoting a standard publically as THE standard that I think that need for it to itself be public becomes so obvious.Why not require that professionals pay for the full document with technical minutia cost money for commercial entities but make the basic, functional part freely available under a 'copyleft' or its equivalent.. to non-professionals, and a complete copy available to public health and building department people -public servants, and nonprofits that deal with IAQ for free or the cost of duplication on CDROM? (not print)

On 12/12/06, Jim H. White <systemsamagma (DOT) ca> wrote:

Un-named LiveSimply

I find your ongoing suggestion that standards be free to the public most uniformed about how standards are written and paid for.

You cannot get a free copy of a UL or CSA or ASTM standard. They are available for a reasonable fee. For some SWOs (Standard Writing Organizations) with small audiences, the fee tends to be higher because the total number of standards likely to be sold is quite small and X/n, when n is a small number is much higher than X/m when m is a much bigger number (as it would be for UL, CSA or ASTM). It costs a fair bit of money to make any standard "happen" and that must be paid somehow. For years I helped fund CSA and ULC standards and provided free research to support ASTM standards, but smaller SWOs did not get that monetary support. I made the case for it but management did not support such funding to the smaller SWOs.

Where do you think the money to write standards will come from? Governments do not normally support such activities very well, even for the bigger and more well-known SWOs. As other persons have stated on this ongoing saga, if people want a copy they can move money around or even get a local library to buy a copy, or find a local group that would help fund such an acquisition for you or the library.

I certainly WISH that standards were both free and widely available, especially on the web. However, interested parties do not necessarily want that and they have strong sway over what governments will support. It may not be right but it is the way it is. If you can find a way to get your congress-person to change the government funding situation, good for you - as long as that funding does not come with strong but hidden strings. Government money almost always comes with strings.

Jim H. White System Science Consulting (former government employee, now retired)

[Guest guest]

You know, there is a lot of common sense in this.Perhaps my anger and frustration is being misdirected to some extent. I really should be angry at the US legislators and the now ever-so-political US CDC and EPA for

not providing the guidance we need to get these situations cleaned up quickly and appropriately.The standards situation is an important one but I've said my peace. I certainly don't expect these organizations to do all the work that they have been doing for free. I wish that the kind of stuff that professional remediators do would percolate down to the rental environment.Its almost as of renters live on another planet, a dangerous one, as far as how their health issues are treated..

And its not like they pay cheap rent, either.. they pay and don't get the healthy homes they deserve, they get the cheapest and least honest approach possible. The owners get away with this, usually, knowing that the chance of their being sued is very low, even if the tenants end up really sick, like me, or worse, they have to fight a milion obstacles.

It's basically almost impossible. the system is stacked against you.Buyer beware...On 12/13/06, Jim H. White <

systemsa@...> wrote:

LiveSimply

Please provide a " name " and not just an email address/nom-de-plume.

There are many types of " standards " and all should be differently titled, but we get careless and use the terms incorrectly. Also, many organizations can write standards but they have no " teeth " unless mandated by " someone " having the authority to mandate them (almost always a government agency).

S520 has been prepared by an industry organization to help the industry, and the users of the industry's services. It has no basis in law and will not until a government agency mandates that situation by calling it up in legislation. It is very useful, however, in trying to get the industry to improve the delivery of appropriate services.

Once a standard is mature and has followed all the appropriate steps (there are many indeed) it can be called up. Until then it is proprietary to the industry organization and that is as it should be.

Please do not shoot the industry organization for trying to do the right thing. You are shooting the wrong agency. If you think a mandated standard is needed (I agree with you) then approach the proper government agency or your appropriate government representative.

Jim H. White

[Guest guest]

Jim:

I second Pat’s suggestion....California is a nice place to live and work, and there are many opportunities here for a guy with your qualifications. Cost of living is a bit high (in some places), the air quality is thick and opaque (Would you trust air you cannot see?), and the water quality is...don’t drink the water from the tap! But it is warm, much warmer than Canada. And you can enjoy wildland fires in December (we just had one several miles from our ranch a week ago). All this kidding around, really now, I imagine Pat, myself, and others can find you some billable hours here and there. I also imagine there are firms in California that could use your expertise. Then again, it may mean moving to Los Angeles. You gotta take the good with the bad here in the Left State. (Fortunately, I live on the Right side of the Left State.)

For what it is worth....

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

Hey Jim,

Southern California is a nice place to live and work. As a businessperson, we all think we make good decisions in life. We can use a good hand around here if you want to escape Canada.

Moffett

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Jim H. White

Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:04 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: @ NORMI Becomes the Fastest Growing Organization wi thin Mold and Remediation Ind.

LiveSimply

Unfortunately we are trying to become more " American " all the time. I decided to take early retirement when I was told that, as a government employee, I had to protect the industry from the government. My reply was " Perhaps not! " They told me I had an attitude problem. My reply was " I do so!. "

Unfortunately I am now facing bankruptcy. Oh well, we pay the consequences for our choices, do we not?

Jim H. White

Re: @ NORMI Becomes the Fastest Growing Organization wi thin Mold and Remediation Ind.

Jim, I'm sorry, I left something important out.. I DO think that

governments need to fund these activities.. Its health related and so

its important.

I realize that the US's model is self-policing and self-regulation for

all kinds of industry in most situations, but that clearly is a model

that is geared towards a different kind of interaction than many of

the interactions we see with IAQ. I think that there should be a

strong partnership between the public health community, the human

community, (ie. homeowners, renters, emplyers, employees, building

owners, etc.) and IAQ professionals with all of them working together

to find a workable spec that is not impossible to implement and which

keeps people healthy. The priority should be on public health and

nothing else. When businesses get too focused on making money to the

exclusion of important public health issues then I think its time for

government to step in. You are lucky to live in Canada, perhaps where

there is maybe less of a resistance to the government taking a role in

health issues.

Here, its like the fox is guarding the henhouse.