Re: Particle Counting for Mold

[Guest guest]

:

Well said! I feel that anyone who uses at a particulate counter and infers a specific type of particulate based solely on particle size, absent any other compelling information (e.g., dust in a grain mill), is VERY mistaken and shortsighted. I take many air samples and look at them VERY closely using PLM and EM, and the variety and types or aerosols (e.g., particulates, matrixes, and clusters of airborne stuff) I find are diverse. One cannot conclude with any reliability that particulates in the 10-micron range are mold spores....not without other compelling data.

For what it is worth...

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

Okay, but are you also thinking of possibilities for pet dander, fibrous materials, pollen, insect fragments, skin cell fragments, etc.???? If not, then you are not addressing the actual picture of the indoor air quality. Mold is one small facet… Maybe it just happens to be the one you derive the majority of your income from?

S.C.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 6:24 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Particle Counting for Mold (was: Re: Is QPCR Better)

That is also my impression. If I find something in the 10 micron range I think of Stachy, Chaetomium, Curvularia.

But you also have Pen/Asp-like particles that are clumps of spores and will also appear in the larger range.

Rosen

Re: Particle Counting for Mold (was: Re: Is QPCR Better)

I would image that the data for particle sizes between 2 to 6 microns will correlate with ariborne mold spors better since this is the size range for Asp/Pen-like spores. Can anyone comment on that?

Wei Tang

QLab

[Guest guest]

Robyn:

Wow! Thanks for the information. What an interesting fact....Dust mites and chivalry!

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

Hi ,

It is incorrect to assume that dustmites don’t grow at RH less than 55% unless it is continuous. Dustmites only need moisture for 1 hour in 24 to be fully hydrated. They are very hard to kill by dehydration as about 8 males will gallantry huddle around 1 breeding female prevent her from dehydration in periods of low RH.

Regards

Robyn

Dr Robyn Phipps

Institute of Technology and Engineering 456

Massey University

Private Bag 11 222

Palmerston North

New Zealand

DD ++ 64 6 350 5107

Fax ++ 64 6 350 5604

[Guest guest]

Dear Ms. Larkin: I know I've heard this tune before; "And the spin goes on, & the spin goes on ...." I think I need to forward this thread to Mr. 'O Reilly. Sincerely, Pete H. Carkhuff, ASCS, WRT IICRC S520 Section 4.2.1 Proponentgary rosen wrote: , I understand your arguments and conerns completely. I have heard them before and they are valid. But there's another side of the coin: 1.) Most clients want to deal with one entity that takes responsibility for the whole job. 2.) They want the job to be certified and warrantied by the responsible party. 3.) I as an IEP (as well as remediator) would never certify or provide a warranty for a job performed by another remediation contractor unless I was there full time during the work. That becomes expensive. 4.) I have a $5M E & O policy with mirobial matter coverage. My insurance provider has no problem with my checking my own work. 5.) I don't want anyone to pat me on the back and say a job well done and take some of the risk. I am proud to be able to give people a warranty and certification for the work we do and take all the risk. 6.) There is often not enough money to do both the remediation work and to bring in an IEP. I think it is unethical to skimp on the remediation work so one can bring in an IEP to reduce your risk. Rosen Particle Counting for Mold (was: Re: Is QPCR Better) and group:The message

below refers to using a particle counter to look forspores coming out of electrical boxes. In Wisconsin , I only know ofone consultant that has purchased a particle counter, and I am notsure if they routinely use it on water damage/mold jobs.I have used a rented counter on multiple occasions - so this isn't aquestion on how they work.I would like to know if anyone has used a counter for trackingelevated levels of airborne spores. I ask because I look at traces onspore trap samples and there is a lot of debris that is between 1-10microns. Only on a few rare occasions would I feel confident that thespore to debris ratio was sufficient to have 'detected' the spores.TIA for your comments.Cassidy Kuchenbecker> At Aeorotech the detection limit for QPCR is not less than a minimumof 100 spore equivalents per species. But you typically need quite abit more to get accurate numbers based on the results I have gottenback from them. That's why you need to run air samples for severalhours unless the airborne spore levels are very high. Best resultsthat I've had are from dust or bulk samples. > > Rosen> > > > > > > > >____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Do you Yahoo!?> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.> http://new.mail. yahoo.com> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. QLab5 DriveCherry Hill , NJ 08003www.QLabUSA. com Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. Everyone is raving about the all-new

Yahoo! Mail beta. Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

[Guest guest]

Pete,

I'm sure Mike will get a chuckle, he has known me for a very long time and has known my thoughts and opinions on this matter since day one.

So, Pete, are you saying that if I hold a different opinion than what is stated in the IICRC S520, then I am wrong? Let's not also forget, Pete, that some states have outlawed companies doing both. The S520 is a remediation document, it gives guidance and direction to remediators. One should know the risk they are taking on prior to taking on any project, regardless of the standard or guidelines they are using to perform the work.

If you knew me at all, you would know that I do support much of what is recommended in the S520. You can go back to posts as far back as 2003 (when the document was first out) to verify that. I even gave a presentation on using the S520 as THE law for our state when I served on the Oklahoma Mold and Mold Remediation Task Force. Much of my time has been dedicated over the years to getting this standard recognized by local, state and federal law makers. I have counseled many homeowners, business owners, and property managers to read the document. Hell, Pete, I have even given the standard to my clients just so they are educated in what should take place.

All of that and $1.75 + tax will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks. It still has nothing to do with whether or not it is ethical, legal, or the right thing to do.

I can say that I am very glad to see that you have read the standard enough to know the Section to quote. I am sure your clients will be too.

Larkin, CRMI, WRT

ERS Services

elires@...

I find that it is not the circumstances in which we are placed, but the spirit in which we face them, that constitutes our comfort.- T. KingThat's what learning is, after all; not whether we lose the game, but how we lose and how we've changed because of it and what we take away from it that we never had before, to apply to other games. Losing, in a curious way, is winning.- Bach from "The Bridge Across Forever"

Particle Counting for Mold (was: Re: Is QPCR Better)

and group:The message below refers to using a particle counter to look forspores coming out of electrical boxes. In Wisconsin , I only know ofone consultant that has purchased a particle counter, and I am notsure if they routinely use it on water damage/mold jobs.I have used a rented counter on multiple occasions - so this isn't aquestion on how they work.I would like to know if anyone has used a counter for trackingelevated levels of airborne spores. I ask because I look at traces onspore trap samples and there is a lot of debris that is between 1-10microns. Only on a few rare occasions would I feel confident that thespore to debris ratio was sufficient to have 'detected' the spores.TIA for your comments.Cassidy Kuchenbecker> At Aeorotech the detection limit for QPCR is not less than a minimumof 100 spore equivalents per species. But you typically need quite abit more to get accurate numbers based on the results I have gottenback from them. That's why you need to run air samples for severalhours unless the airborne spore levels are very high. Best resultsthat I've had are from dust or bulk samples. > > Rosen> > > > > > > > >____________ _________

_________ _________ _________ _________ _> Do you Yahoo!?> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.> http://new.mail. yahoo.com>

Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.

QLab5 DriveCherry Hill , NJ 08003www.QLabUSA. com

Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.

Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

[Guest guest]

Hi Ms. Larkin: I'm not sure who "Mike" is but I want you to know that my comments were not directed at you, but rather with you! My original post in which I came to the defense of Chuck Reaney, stated that "in my book, you are either a Professional or you are not & those who violate section 4.2.1 are NOT, no matter how much spin they may try to put on it". In other posts, I have come to the defense of S520 for the simple fact that we now have a Standard of Care & Practice that we can use as a guide and as a tool to educate our customer's and clients. (There is a difference you know; a client implies a Fiduciary Responsibility - as an agent who represents the best interest of their client, ahead of their own interests; In general, Consultants have clients; Remediators have customers). As one who is on the

Remediation side of the fence, S520 was written specifically for practitioners like me. But in general, it is a great document for our entire industry and I believe we as an industry should be supportive in it's basic premises and most especially in it's attempt to protect the Consumer from, shall we say, (since I'm feeling mellow), some of the more questionable activities that can occur as the result of media hype, misinformation from agenda seeking groups and individuals, and overall misunderstanding within the general public. Are their deficiencies in S520? Sure, but it is a Living Document, and as our understanding deepens in regards to Professional Mold Remediation, as well as mold & human health, the document can change to reflect this greater understanding. Are we going to disagree about the various methods and their effectiveness

- of course; but that disagreement, if done in the right spirit, can lead to debate, discussion and dialog. And I believe it was Socrates, via Plato, that said "Dialog is the means to arriving at Truth". What doesn't change is the need for ethical guidelines and an accredited, recognized Industry Non-Profit Association that can actually mean something to belong to; that there are Professional Standards that will strive to be adhered to and ethical behaviors that can be expected by being a member of. Believe it or not, IMO the IAQA is our best hope as an industry voice in regards to IAQ/IEQ & microbial matters - but the fence needs to be well defined, built and defended if we as an industry are to be taken seriously. Section 4.2.1 is that fence. As always, I remain... at your service. Sincerely, Pete Pete, I'm sure Mike will get a chuckle, he has known me for a very long time and has known my thoughts and opinions on this matter since day one. So, Pete, are you saying that if I hold a different opinion than what is stated in the IICRC

S520, then I am wrong? Let's not also forget, Pete, that some states have outlawed companies doing both. The S520 is a remediation document, it gives guidance and direction to remediators. One should know the risk they are taking on prior to taking on any project, regardless of the standard or guidelines they are using to perform the work. If you knew me at all, you would know that I do support much of what is recommended in the S520. You can go back to posts as far back as 2003 (when the document was first out) to verify that. I even gave a presentation on using the S520 as THE law for our state when I served on the Oklahoma Mold and Mold Remediation Task Force. Much of my time has been dedicated over the years to getting this standard recognized by local, state and federal law makers. I have counseled many homeowners, business owners, and property managers to read the

document. Hell, Pete, I have even given the standard to my clients just so they are educated in what should take place. All of that and $1.75 + tax will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks. It still has nothing to do with whether or not it is ethical, legal, or the right thing to do. I can say that I am very glad to see that you have read the standard enough to know the Section to quote. I am sure your clients will be too. Larkin, CRMI, WRT ERS Services elires I find that it is not the circumstances in which we are placed, but the spirit in which we face them, that constitutes our comfort.- T. KingThat's

what learning is, after all; not whether we lose the game, but how we lose and how we've changed because of it and what we take away from it that we never had before, to apply to other games. Losing, in a curious way, is winning.- Bach from "The Bridge Across Forever" Particle Counting for Mold (was: Re: Is QPCR Better) and group:The message below refers to using a particle counter to look forspores coming out of electrical boxes. In Wisconsin , I only know ofone consultant that has purchased a particle counter, and I am notsure if they routinely use it on water damage/mold jobs.I have used a rented counter on multiple occasions - so this isn't aquestion on how they work.I would like to know if anyone has used a counter for trackingelevated levels of airborne spores. I ask because I look at traces onspore trap samples and there

is a lot of debris that is between 1-10microns. Only on a few rare occasions would I feel confident that thespore to debris ratio was sufficient to have 'detected' the spores.TIA for your comments.Cassidy Kuchenbecker> At Aeorotech the detection limit for QPCR is not less than a minimumof 100 spore equivalents per species. But you typically need quite abit more to get accurate numbers based on the results I have gottenback from them. That's why you need to

run air samples for severalhours unless the airborne spore levels are very high. Best resultsthat I've had are from dust or bulk samples. > > Rosen> > > > > > > > >____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Do you Yahoo!?> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.> http://new.mail. yahoo.com> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. QLab5 DriveCherry Hill , NJ 08003www.QLabUSA. com Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

[Guest guest]

and ,

I can understand a remediator who takes presamples checked by an

independent lab.

I can understand a remediator who takes samples during remediation

for internal (not reported to the customer) reasons like QA/QC.

I can not understand a remediator who takes their own samples for

post testing reported to a customer as proof of effectiveness for

remediation.

In fact, my insurance carrier will not cover that last scenario.

The only reason they will let me do inspections and write a scope of

work for my remediation projects is:

1) I have a CMC certification from the AmIAQ

2) My reporting formats were reviewed by the insurance carriers

experts

3) My contracts were reviewed by the insurance carriers experts

4) My SOPs were reviewed by the insurance carriers experts

I think there are not enough qualified people to do all the jobs for

inspections. Everyone should look at the conflict of interest

documents in Virginia for asbestos and apply the same thing for mold

and bacteria as far as remediation.

I would like to know what insurance carrier will cover anyone for $5

million dollars to do their own post testing even if they use an

independant lab. It is too easy to take meaningless samples. Carry

a $2 million dollar insurance policy through Legends Environmental

( McFarland) from my AmIAQ membership. I have looked at other

situations, . Please advise everyone with the name of the

carrier.

Regards,

Greg Weatherman

aerobioLogical Solutions Inc.

Arlington VA 22202

gw@...

****************************************************

> > At Aeorotech the detection limit for QPCR is not less than a

minimum

> of 100 spore equivalents per species. But you typically need quite

a

> bit more to get accurate numbers based on the results I have gotten

> back from them. That's why you need to run air samples for several

> hours unless the airborne spore levels are very high. Best results

> that I've had are from dust or bulk samples.

> >

> > Rosen

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> > Do you Yahoo!?

> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

> > http://new.mail. yahoo.com

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it

now.

>

>

> QLab

> 5 Drive

> Cherry Hill , NJ 08003

>

> www.QLabUSA. com

>

>

>

>

>

> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it

now.

>

>

>

>

>

> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

>

>

>

>

>

> Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small

Business.

>

>

>

>

>

> Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call

rates.

>

>

>

>

>

> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

>

>

>

>

>

> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

>

[Guest guest]

Stacey,

Just playing devil’s advocate here

for a minute:

If you have the homeowner “stand

there” while you take your post samples, and those results come back

showing that there are still say high counts of mold,

What are high counts? 

According to whom?  Do counts in

and of themselves mean anything if not looked at in

conjunction with cleanliness?

that homeowner develops adult onset asthma as a result of you trying to

“save them money,”

How could you prove that it came as a result of the remediation?  Is it possible that all of the other mold

exposure possibly played a role?  What

about personal cleanliness, does this play a role?  Does the fact that he was trying to save

money play a role? 

I had a case one time where two office employees filed workman’s

compensation claims for mold exposure at work. 

One of the two was a smoker.  I

developed the case for both workers and we prevailed, but I was really

conflicted about working with the smoker. 

Although they were both receiving the same dose, I felt as if the smoker

had somehow been responsible in a large degree for their own problems.  How do we as professionals handle these cases?

would you feel obligated to cover your client’s medical

expenses???

Let’s look at this from a different angle.  Let’s say that a building owner hires

someone to do an asbestos inspection. 

Let’s assume that the inspector failed to identify some pipe insulation

in the wall cavity.  If the building

owner is doing renovations in the build after the inspection and finds the

asbestos, what is the inspector’s responsibility to the owner?  Should he pay to remove the asbestos, after

all he never installed the material nor did he own the building.  Just exactly what are the legal obligations in

this case?  I think there is a strong

case against strict liability in this instance. 

Is this any difference than the case above?  I think it comes down to standard of care in

the industry, not state of the art.  Is

it possible that what is right and what is legal may

be two different things?

Also, do you expect them as a layperson to

understand sampling?

We don’t understand sampling, so, how could they?

 Just because you’re taking them,

doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re doing it right…

Just because they were taken properly doesn’t mean that we

know what they mean.

I think the whole issue of perceived conflict of interest is just

that, perceived.  I think if all parties

know where the potentials for conflict exist, and they are willing to accept

the risk, for whatever reason, that is between the parties.  It doesn’t matter if I think there is a

potential for a conflict, if two reasonable adults decide they will accept the

risk, it is none of my business.  Is

there a potential for problem in this type of relationship? Of course but what

types of relationships aren’t there potential problems?  I have clients that I wouldn’t hesitate

to find the problem, fix it and evaluate it for them.  I don’t think I would do that on most

mold jobs because it is not repeat business with a long-term client, but if one

of my long-term property development clients asked me to look at a piece of

property and handle all of the issues, I would consider it.  Of course I would explain where there were

perceived conflicts and let them make the determination.

I think a lot of the questions arise from how much risk one is

willing to accept.  You can never

eliminate all of the risk.  Think about

companies that practice from a position of lawsuit avoidance.  Are they really serving their clients best interest?

If you think so, take a good look at the medical profession and what that

practice cost us in terms of insurance premiums. 

In summation, I think that we all have to draw our own lines in the

sand.  Of course, the flip side is also true;

we all have to be responsible for our actions based upon where we draw the

line.   Some people like diving off of cliffs, while

others are much happier in the shallow end of the pool.  With greater risks come higher profits.  But, the harder they come the harder they

fall (one and all!).

Mark Doughty

 

[Guest guest]

, then CERTIFIED MOLD FREE CORP. is actually doing all 4

functions: inspection, remediation, PRV, and certifying the job to

be " Mold Free " . I'm surprized that you've not seen challenges to the

certification aspect. Florida has such a high attorney/population

ratio.

Disinterested third party inspection, verification and certification

adds accountability, credibility and a liability screen. For what its

worth, ~Cheryl C Crane, CIEC

[Guest guest]

Mark –

This post is a part of why I appreciate

you! I need to ponder some of these things, but wanted to let you know

that I will respond when I have some time and thank you for making me “think!”

-Stace

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Mark Doughty

Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006

9:45 AM

To: iequality

Subject: RE: Particle

Counting for Mold

Stacey,

Just playing devil’s advocate here for a minute:

If you have the homeowner “stand there” while you take

your post samples, and those results come back showing that there are still say

high counts of mold,

What are high counts? According to whom? Do counts in

and of themselves mean anything if not looked at in

conjunction with cleanliness?

that

homeowner develops adult onset asthma as a result of you trying to “save

them money,”

How could you prove that it came as a result of the remediation?

Is it possible that all of the other mold exposure possibly played a

role? What about personal cleanliness, does this play a role? Does

the fact that he was trying to save money play a role?

I had a case one time where two office employees filed

workman’s compensation claims for mold exposure at work. One of the

two was a smoker. I developed the case for both workers and we prevailed,

but I was really conflicted about working with the smoker. Although they

were both receiving the same dose, I felt as if the smoker had somehow been

responsible in a large degree for their own problems. How do we as

professionals handle these cases?

would you feel obligated to cover your client’s medical

expenses???

Let’s look at this from a different angle. Let’s

say that a building owner hires someone to do an asbestos inspection.

Let’s assume that the inspector failed to identify some pipe insulation

in the wall cavity. If the building owner is doing renovations in the

build after the inspection and finds the asbestos, what is the

inspector’s responsibility to the owner? Should he pay to remove

the asbestos, after all he never installed the material nor did he own the

building. Just exactly what are the legal obligations in this case?

I think there is a strong case against strict liability in this instance.

Is this any difference than the case above? I think it comes down to

standard of care in the industry, not state of the art. Is it possible

that what is right and what is legal may be two different

things?

Also, do you expect them as a layperson to understand sampling?

We don’t understand sampling, so, how could they?

Just because you’re taking them, doesn’t

necessarily mean that you’re doing it right…

Just because they were taken properly doesn’t mean that we

know what they mean.

I think the whole issue of perceived conflict of interest is just

that, perceived. I think if all parties know where the potentials for

conflict exist, and they are willing to accept the risk, for whatever reason,

that is between the parties. It doesn’t matter if I think there is

a potential for a conflict, if two reasonable adults decide they will accept

the risk, it is none of my business. Is there a potential for problem in

this type of relationship? Of course but what types of relationships

aren’t there potential problems? I have clients that I

wouldn’t hesitate to find the problem, fix it and evaluate it for

them. I don’t think I would do that on most mold jobs because it is

not repeat business with a long-term client, but if one of my long-term

property development clients asked me to look at a piece of property and handle

all of the issues, I would consider it. Of course I would explain where

there were perceived conflicts and let them make the determination.

I think a lot of the questions arise from how much risk one is

willing to accept. You can never eliminate all of the risk. Think

about companies that practice from a position of lawsuit avoidance. Are

they really serving their clients best interest? If you think so, take a good

look at the medical profession and what that practice cost us in terms of

insurance premiums.

In summation, I think that we all have to draw our own lines in the

sand. Of course, the flip side is also true; we all have to be

responsible for our actions based upon where we draw the line. Some

people like diving off of cliffs, while others are much happier in the shallow

end of the pool. With greater risks come higher profits. But, the

harder they come the harder they fall (one and all!).

Mark Doughty

[Guest guest]

wrong again. structures cannot be returned to " pre-loss condition "

or " mold growth/reservoir free " for the reasons that has

described.

Wane

> > > At Aeorotech the detection limit for QPCR is not less than a

> minimum

> > of 100 spore equivalents per species. But you typically need

quite

> a

> > bit more to get accurate numbers based on the results I have

gotten

> > back from them. That's why you need to run air samples for several

> > hours unless the airborne spore levels are very high. Best results

> > that I've had are from dust or bulk samples.

> > >

> > > Rosen

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> > > Do you Yahoo!?

> > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

> > > http://new.mail. <http://new.mail. /> yahoo.com

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it

> now.

> >

> >

> > QLab

> > 5 Drive

> > Cherry Hill , NJ 08003

> >

> > www.QLabUSA. com

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it

> now.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small

> Business.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call

> rates.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

> >

> >

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

> >

[Guest guest]

you're triple and quadruple dipping, and eventually, it will bite you

in the posterior.

apparently, you're not familiar with the article written by

Bowdoin (Brown Sims PC, Houston, Texas) entitled " Wisdom: Pigs Get

Fat, But Hogs Get Slaughtered " ; Volume 5, Issue 5 (March 2004) of

Indoor Environment Connections. as described by Bowdoin, you and

your firm are " hogs " .

actually, it's all about ethics, and acknowledging what you don't

know. a difficult concept for some to accept: what is better left

in the hands of capable specialists.

the lab mycologist has never visited the site, and cannot possibly

comment on the interpretation of analytical results IN THE CONTEXT OF

his/her site observations.

Wane

>

> It is all about doing the job right, for a fair price and providing

accountability. Actually attorney's love us. We put together fair

Xactimate quotes for them to submit to the insurance providers they

are fighting with and a fixed bid on doing all the work. And then we

get the job done on schedule for the quoted price.

>

> You hardly everr know what the job entails until the walls are

opened. Protocols written on the basis of a visual inspection and a

few air samples are hardly ever right. So the remediation contractor

bids the job based on what everyone knows is probably an unrealistic

job description based on visual mold He goes in and starts to work

and then has to jack up the price to complete the job because now he

found hidden mold. At that point there is no competitive bidding and

then the home owner and/or insurance provider gets ripped of. That is

far from an ideal situation.

>

> Rosen

>

>

> Re: Particle Counting for Mold

>

> , then CERTIFIED MOLD FREE CORP. is actually doing all 4

> functions: inspection, remediation, PRV, and certifying the job to

> be " Mold Free " . I'm surprized that you've not seen challenges to

the

> certification aspect. Florida has such a high attorney/population

> ratio.

>

[Guest guest]

wrong again.

from your post below: " Low indoor spore counters. Much lower than

the outside. This is not rocket science although many IEPs seem to

think only they can uderstand the magic involved and that remediators

are more like Neanderthals and can't comprehend anything. "

from the perspective of someone with >15 years of real life

experience as an air quality professional (dirt under my nails, tools

in my back pockets, and proud of it):

there is no magic. there is, however, the science behind a true

expert interpretation of analytical results. your continuing

references to the incredibly simplistic IESO standards, " low indoor

spore counters [sic] " , and " lower than the outside " give you away.

it's become quite clear that, though an educated man, you started as

the (Neanderthal) remediator, and you're not qualified to serve as

the IEP.

Wane

>

> In general I would expect a lay person to understand sample results

just about as well as most IEPs unless the IEPy have extensive real

life experience with interpreting results as well as formal training.

Neither the formal training nor extensive real life experience are

obtained in any of the 1, 3, 4 days courses offered.

>

> Pre-remediation condition. Lots of mold. Post-remediation

clearance testing. Low indoor spore counters. Much lower than the

outside. This is not rocket science although many IEPs seem to think

only they can uderstand the magic involved and that remediators are

more like Neanderthals and can't comprehend anything.

>

> Rosen

>

>

> Re: Particle Counting for Mold

>

> Bob/Ma

>

> A few additional thoughts on this subject. Sorry in advance to VENT.

>

> In our area there are several ramifications due to assessors doing

their own testing in addition to pushing some of us into mold

remediation work.

>

> 1.) The other assessors cannot compete on price and tend to take

too few samples to stay competitive. Here's a true story... I was

called in to remedate a Real Estate transaction (house for sale)

where an assessor found mold. He said to gut the bathroom. I said

that there was no visible mold nor were there any samples taken in

that bathroom to make me want to do any work there at all. I asked

him why he concluded the bathroom needing gutting. He said that the

seller would not pay for enough samples to test the bathroom, so to

cover himself he recommended that the bathroom be gutted. I kid you

not.

>

> 2.) The other issue is that the assessors (around here) that do

their own lab work never provide raw counts. There is always 24

Stachy; 48 Curvularia; 96 Pen/Asp. But this is based on only 1, 2,

and 4 spores. I think that is highly unethical.

>

> Rosen

> ----- Original Message ----

[Guest guest]

Thanks,

Stace

Nostrovia! (The sound of one shot glass clinking)

Just name that beautiful child after me!

md

Mark –

This post is a part of why I appreciate

you! I need to ponder some of these things, but wanted to let you know

that I will respond when I have some time and thank you for making me

“think!”

-Stace