Formaldehyde pollution

[Guest guest]

Sorry but I just can't take it anymore! The following statements are just so out to lunch that I cannot beilieve a real person would say them

"This said, manufactured wood products are here to stay ­ get used to it. Adhesive formulations are probably not going tochange much either....unless people are willing to tolerate furniture that falls apart in two to three years. "

While manufactured wood products may be here to stay, they do not have to be built using resins that emit copious amounts of formaldehyde, just becasue the first price is lower, although the final cost is huge, when all costs are determined and included. It would only take pennies more a sheet to produce panel products that would not emit formaldehyde, wood toxins or any other know toxic products. We do not have to choose minimum first price no matter what the total cost; although we would have to be honest and tell consumers about the many hidden costs of choosing cheap and crappy first, then paying through the nose later.

The urea-fromaldehyde resin that is still used in particleboard is water unstable and is what makes most cheap furniture disintegrate in the presence of water. Why would you use a water-unstable resin in a water planet (and earth is the water planet)? There are many other resins that could be used at a reasonable first price and lower total cost. We do not have to settle for less that costs more. But we do have to get together and inform the poorly-informed public about the nonsense that they are being told and sold.

Jim H. White

System Science Consulting - "Helping you find the right question"

1. Re: Diesel School Buses? how about formaldehyde Posted by: " Geyer" mgeyer@... bs101master Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:26 am (PDT)Tom:Yes...formaldehyde is a big issue in indoor air. Manufactured woodproducts, especially particle board and OSB and to a lesser extent veneerwood products, off-gas a lot of VOCs. There are several significantaldehydes off-gassing, but most people are only looking for fomaldehyde.There are also acetone, IPA and other alcohols, butyric acid, MEK and otherketones, to name a few. This said, manufactured wood products are here tostay ­ get used to it. Adhesive formulations are probably not going tochange much either....unless people are willing to tolerate furniture thatfalls apart in two to three years. Off-gassing from manufactured woodproducts is a BIG issues in tenant improvement projects when new furnitureis installed. I see a solution to the problem being a substantial increasein fresh air make-up, an increasing the air exchange rate. The solution topollution is often dilution. However, this comes at a cost, e.g., energycosts to condition the air, and filtration costs to polish the fresh air.Because...fresh air is only as fresh as what is up stream. (Sort of likethe saying: The yellow is in the beer because the bear is upstream ­ samephenomenon.)For what it is worth.....-- Geyer, PE, CIH, CSPPresidentKERNTEC Industries, Inc.Bakersfield, Californiawww.kerntecindustries.com

[Guest guest]

Jim:

I believe, you lack some understanding of material science. The principle reason cheap, particleboard furniture disintegrates in the presence of water has less to do with the type of resin used (though cheap particle board has less resin per pound of product), it is somewhat the finish used, and it is more often the imbibition of moisture and the swelling of cellulose particles. I disagree with you, reformulated resins do not emit “copious” amounts of formaldehyde, especially when compared to what they used to emit. Define copious? Yes, urea-aldehyde resins have been re-formulated to emit less aldehydes; just as much as lead-based paints have been reformulated to have less lead; albeit, most paints are not lead-free. And I hope that some day, these resins will be re-formulated to emit no formaldehyde; in addition to other aldehydes, ketones, etc., while still being strong, durable, hydrophobic, and toxic to biological decay/consumption. Moreover, it take more than a “few pennies” to produce panel products that do not emit formaldehyde; the issues are much more broad and complex than you assume/allege. There are structural and durability concerns as well. Great strides have been made by manufacturers to greatly lower manufactured wood-product emissions, and I believe the first manufacturer to produce products with zero-formaldehyde emissions will have a great marketing advantage; all other issues being equal. Regulating the industry is a piss-poor way to make it work; let the capitalist market develop and it will have a much greater chance of success and efficacy. Just look at what mold has done to the sheetrock industry, and how the EFIS industry has matured. Also, a lot can be done to reduce emissions if newly manufactured products were allowed to age and off-gas, before being sold, used, and installed; but it is not done because consumer demand is so high. Lumber is green and wet (not moist) when sold, manufactured wood when installed is off-gassing almost as much as the day it was produced, and new automobiles stink with VOCs when placed on the lot. With time, many of these VOCs become negligible as the volatile and semi-volatile chemicals off-gas and the product ages. Even buildings made with concrete, masonry and brick off-gas, and when you consider radon, it does not quickly diminish with time like VOCs. If residential buildings were required to have regular air exchanges (similar to what is required in many other countries, e.g., Canada) bad IAQ could be a thing of the past and a lot of these issues, e.g., formaldehyde injury, would be lessened. A lot can also be done if manufactured wood-product materials (e.g., particle board) were heated slightly, to accelerate off-gassing, before being placed into the consumer market....but that takes time and money. Speaking of which, regarding your comment that “We do not have to choose minimum first price no matter what the total cost...”, I can only assume that you do not shop at Wal-Mart, Target, or any of the other low-price stores that sell cheap Chinese-produced products manufactured with little regard for safe labor practices, environmental stewardship, or product durability. Unfortunately, most American consumers are VERY price conscious, and they choose to buy the cheapest thing on the market. Get used to it.

For what it is worth....

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

Sorry but I just can't take it anymore! The following statements are just so out to lunch that I cannot beilieve a real person would say them

" This said, manufactured wood products are here to stay ­ get used to it. Adhesive formulations are probably not going to

change much either....unless people are willing to tolerate furniture that falls apart in two to three years. "

While manufactured wood products may be here to stay, they do not have to be built using resins that emit copious amounts of formaldehyde, just becasue the first price is lower, although the final cost is huge, when all costs are determined and included. It would only take pennies more a sheet to produce panel products that would not emit formaldehyde, wood toxins or any other know toxic products. We do not have to choose minimum first price no matter what the total cost; although we would have to be honest and tell consumers about the many hidden costs of choosing cheap and crappy first, then paying through the nose later.

The urea-fromaldehyde resin that is still used in particleboard is water unstable and is what makes most cheap furniture disintegrate in the presence of water. Why would you use a water-unstable resin in a water planet (and earth is the water planet)? There are many other resins that could be used at a reasonable first price and lower total cost. We do not have to settle for less that costs more. But we do have to get together and inform the poorly-informed public about the nonsense that they are being told and sold.

Jim H. White

System Science Consulting - " Helping you find the right question "

1. Re: Diesel School Buses? how about formaldehyde

Posted by: " Geyer " mgeyer@... bs101master

Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:26 am (PDT)

Tom:

Yes...formaldehyde is a big issue in indoor air. Manufactured wood

products, especially particle board and OSB and to a lesser extent veneer

wood products, off-gas a lot of VOCs. There are several significant

aldehydes off-gassing, but most people are only looking for fomaldehyde.

There are also acetone, IPA and other alcohols, butyric acid, MEK and other

ketones, to name a few. This said, manufactured wood products are here to

stay ­ get used to it. Adhesive formulations are probably not going to

change much either....unless people are willing to tolerate furniture that

falls apart in two to three years. Off-gassing from manufactured wood

products is a BIG issues in tenant improvement projects when new furniture

is installed. I see a solution to the problem being a substantial increase

in fresh air make-up, an increasing the air exchange rate. The solution to

pollution is often dilution. However, this comes at a cost, e.g., energy

costs to condition the air, and filtration costs to polish the fresh air.

Because...fresh air is only as fresh as what is up stream. (Sort of like

the saying: The yellow is in the beer because the bear is upstream ­ same

phenomenon.)

For what it is worth.....

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> manufactured wood products are here to stay ­ get used to it.

Another analogy, this one by Mark Twain. If you put a frog into a pan

of boiling water, he will jump out and run away. But if you put a

frog into a pan of cool water and slowly heat it, he will " get used

to it " and stay. He will adapt. He will also be dead.

Should I go or should I stay? Which is congruent with the best

science? Which for survival? Which for " public " health? Which for

winning a legal case? Oh, the choices! I'm getting a headache.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

While manufactured wood products may be here to stay, they do not have to be built using resins that emit copious amounts of formaldehyde, just because the first price is lower, although the final cost is huge, when all costs are determined and included. It would only take pennies more a sheet to produce panel products that would not emit formaldehyde, wood toxins or any other know toxic products.

Speculation that an additional pennies may be incurred may be realistic, but set up cost and change of gluing technique etc. could be substantial on the manufacturing end.

As a builder that could be held liable for as long as 15 years in a material quality suite . I doubt that I would render that product into another persons hand in good faith.

Personally I don't use OSB or particle board and people cry about my prices.

I can hardly wait for the suites over " Mold Proof drywall" . Now convince the jury that it really grew on the paint. How much will this cost us to "win" if required?

Let the industry change thru natural evolution . There will always be a lesser market.

Shoving IAQ down the average persons throat is mute after they find out the price.

If you don't like your carcinogenic formaldehyde in gas form, I can install a UV light and serve it to you as a powder. If you don't like the ozone from the UV we'll use t coated bulbs.

Oh yes, the fiberglass ductwork will be putting shards on your bed for only the first month or so but the voc's from the plastic flex duct lining will take a bit longer. The manufacturer included a washable hog hair filter in your air handler guaranteed to stop a baseball but we can install a high efficiency filtration system for X $. Yes sir I can get you a roll of hog hair.

Just a thought

Valin

[Guest guest]

:

You stated:

Oh yes, the fiberglass ductwork will be

putting shards on your bed for only the first month or so but the voc's from

the plastic flex duct lining will take a bit longer. The manufacturer included

a washable hog hair filter in your air handler guaranteed to stop a

baseball but we can install a high efficiency filtration system for

X $. Yes sir I can get you a roll of hog hair.

Just a thought

Valin

Could you please expand on the VOCs with your

experience.

The reason I ask is that I was an expert for

a mobile homeowner in a case where we believed the VOC offgassing promoted

discoloration of the walls in the place. The case settled but it’s

still on my mind.

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

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pH2, LLC

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From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gval102@...

Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 6:55

PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re:

Formaldehyde pollution

In a message dated 6/26/2006 11:48:00

A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, systemsa@... writes:

While manufactured wood products may be

here to stay, they do not have to be built using resins that emit copious

amounts of formaldehyde, just because the first price is lower, although the

final cost is huge, when all costs are determined and included. It would only

take pennies more a sheet to produce panel products that would not emit

formaldehyde, wood toxins or any other know toxic products.

Speculation that an additional pennies

may be incurred may be realistic, but set up cost and change of gluing technique

etc. could be substantial on the manufacturing end.

As a builder that could be held liable

for as long as 15 years in a material quality suite . I doubt that I would

render that product into another persons hand in good faith.

Personally I don't use OSB

or particle board and people cry about my prices.

I can hardly wait for the suites over

" Mold Proof drywall " . Now convince the jury that it really grew on

the paint. How much will this cost us

to " win " if required?

Let the industry change thru natural

evolution . There will always be a lesser market.

Shoving IAQ down the average persons

throat is mute after they find out the price.

If you don't like your carcinogenic

formaldehyde in gas form, I can install a UV light and serve it to you as a

powder. If you don't like the ozone from the UV we'll use t coated bulbs.

Oh yes, the fiberglass ductwork will be

putting shards on your bed for only the first month or so but the voc's from

the plastic flex duct lining will take a bit longer. The manufacturer included

a washable hog hair filter in your air handler guaranteed to stop a

baseball but we can install a high efficiency filtration system for

X $. Yes sir I can get you a roll of hog hair.

Just a thought

Valin

[Guest guest]

:

You stated:

Oh yes, the fiberglass ductwork will be putting shards on your bed for only the first month or so but the voc's from the plastic flex duct lining will take a bit longer. The manufacturer included a washable hog hair filter in your air handler guaranteed to stop a baseball but we can install a high efficiency filtration system for X $. Yes sir I can get you a roll of hog hair.

Just a thought

Valin

Could you please expand on the VOC's with your experience.

The reason I ask is that I was an expert for a mobile homeowner in a case where we believed the VOC off gassing promoted discoloration of the walls in the place. The case settled but it’s still on my mind.

Was this a package unit connected to the trailers' duct system with flex duct ?

The plastic liner will emit in the heating cycle as it cures. Much the same as a cars' dashboard.

Air limit controls are normally trip at 160 F . A plugged filter or under sized ducts provide an excellent opportunity for extended high temp operation.

More often holes in flex will entrain dirt from underneath or someone gets industrious with a can of oil on the evap motor. A loose belt will also cause discolorations on walls.

Was it checked as to whether the duct in question was ( Duct rated or Flex connector rated) there are two.

Valin

[Guest guest]

At the moment, only particleboard and a few decorative plywood decorative panel products use urea formaldehyde. Both indoor grade and outdoor grade structural plywood use phenol formaldehyde, as does OSB. A few orphan types of waferboard seem to used urea, although that is denied, Certainly they have high emission rates. By the way, the resins are mixed in to the particles and wafers, usually in a dry pellet form, and do not cover or coat all parts of the particles or wafers.

When wood gets into any of these products, the wood particles or wafers/chips swell back closer to life size, in spite of their reduced size in the compressed product. When they dry out again they almost never go back close to the size of the undamaged product. With phenol formaldehyde resin there is little damage to the resin itself but the resin may be torn off fibres, or fibres torn out of waters and the material loses some strength. With urea formaldehyde resin, the resin itself may decompose significantly (if it is warm and wet, for long enough) and even more loss of strength will occur. The decomposed resin releases both urea-like compounds and formaldehyde, becoming a huge source of formaldehyde that was not there before the resin decomposed. In most cases, as the fibres or particles dry, the resulting product is quite air permeable, often much thicker and slightly longer and wider. If constrained it may buckle. Because of the many air paths available in the opened-up material, the emission rates of all components in from the surface to the surrounding air are very high.

I hope that all of you who use OSB remember to have it installed so that the resin-impregnated surface (one side only) is to the side that will likely get wet. Sometimes, of course all sides get wet then the single-surface coating may be of little use.

Jim H. White SSC

13b. Re: Formaldehyde Pollution Posted by: " Moffett" pmoffett@... patmoffett3800 Date: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:43 am (PDT)Jim, You bring out some interesting points. Is there a chart that explainsformaldehyde wood binders and types, and what materials such as plywood andOSB have? When engineered wood products are bound together and are soakedbecause of a water damage where swelling occurs, what happens toformaldehyde, to what happens to the plies and strands of wood when theydry? Thanks, Moffett

[Guest guest]

The whole process of wood creep has not been adequately addressed by the wood products industry or the codes. That is a basic reality. The fact that there is a sequence in the use of available new water in composite wood products is also important. What is being neglected is that the urea formaldehyde resin competes in parallel with the wood fibres and flakes or particles for the water and, since it is water unstable, starts to degrade if the temperature is sufficient, even before the wood fibres are fully saturated. This process is slower, I believe, until saturation is approached, but it is still happening. By the time the wood assembly is approaching fibre saturation, the resin may be 'coming unglued' internally.

To me it just makes no sense to use a water-unstable resin on a water planet, unless, of course you are purposefully designing and building self-destructive products.

Since I helped develop, redevelop and reformulate most of the equations that describe the concentration of pollutants in indoor environments, I can assure you that the following are essentially true:

1 We really do need continuous mechanical ventilation in all inhabited buildings (rather like people insisting on breathing on a continuous basis). I didn't want to come to that conclusion, but I was not too old to change my mind and preconceptions. By the way, an energy-efficient ventilation system could be designed to run on less than 30 Watts, for most houses.

2 Most houses and other buildings are badly underventilated for much of the year. For Canadian houses, and a very large number of houses in the gold old USA, that adds up to several thousands of hours in a year. That is much too long to hold your breath, even if they are multiple, widely spaced incidents. I am not aware of good research in all climatic regions in the US, but it is likely that very few houses have good/adequately ventilation without mechanical assistance, certain US expert opinions to the contrary. Max Sherman and I have quite different opinions on how seriously to take industry assertions that putting good ventilation into houses would make all housing unaffordable.

3 The decimal order of magnitude of emission rates for materials, even in the same category, can vary widely. For some materials, no reasonable amount of ventilation can keep contamination levels down to acceptable maximums. For other, 'better' products, reasonable ventilation rates do a fine job. Ventilation can NEVER be the only means of keeping pollution under control; but it is very necessary.

4 The pressures towards simplistic solutions are powerful, but simplistic solutions usually lead to nonsense situations. Resist them with all your might.

Nuf said from ol' granpa!

2. Re: Folmaldehyde Pollution Posted by: " Geyer" mgeyer@... bs101master Date: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:45 am (PDT)Jim:My apologies. You are a very smart guy. Well put.However, when I hear folks say that it is the fault of the adhesive (i.e.,swelling due to moisture) I get annoyed. I¹ve done a fair amount of work oncellulose: imbibition pressure, particle creep, stress, etc. Excessmoisture and swelling cellulose is big physical change of any wood-basedmaterial. Really big. Moreover, it is an elastic change. It is often thefirst thing going on regarding physical changes to a wood product when toomany water molecules are present. Imbibition pressure is huge. Hell, theIndians used to split diorite granite with wood stakes and water! I believehygroscopic water will bind to the cellulose and the cellulose will creep,and that only after this is occurring and if sufficient water is stillpresent, with water begin to react with a water-based adhesive and begindissolution. Thoughts?Also, there are many, many building materials that off-gas volatiles, and Idon¹t believe this is going to change is my life time. What I believe isneeded to a two-fold approach...1-Try to keep emissions moderated at themanufacturing level, i.e., reduce the rate and toxicity of what isoff-gassing as much as practical. (To say that no chemicals should beoff-gassing is not realistic or practical.) 2-Require increased fresh-airand air exchange rates to dilute emissions inside the structure. (This willalso improve long-term IAQ from VOCs brought into, or emissions producedinside, the structure.) There are also ways to artificially accelerate VOCoff-gassing from building products by short-term heating (110F to 120F)combined with mechanical air exchanges. This method actually speeds-up theoff-gassing process and does little, if any, harm to most building products.I¹ve been heating structures for over 10-years for this very application(i.e., accelerate VOC off-gassing) and results have been very satisfactoryto building owners who otherwise would not have been able to move into theirnew, or newly remodeled, home or office space because of off-gassing VOCsand human sensitivities. If residential homes were only ventilated more,and with a slight positive pressure relative to outdoors, these smallemissions of formaldehyde, other toxic VOCs, radon, etc., AND the injuriouseffects, would be rather mute. We keep bitching about the ³toxic² chemicalspresent, when there are proven engineering controls that can mitigate it.Go figure!Regarding cheap....well, all I can say is that Wal-Mart and Target are twoof the fastest growing cheap discount stores in the US, and I don¹t see thatchanging any time soon. The public is going to buy cheap, regardless ofwhat we all say.Regards,-- ***************************************************** Geyer PE, CIH, CSPPRESIDENTKERNTEC Industries, Inc.3703 Columbus StreetBakersfield, California 93306P F