Re: Proceedings of the Saratoga Conference 1994

[Guest guest]

What is the customary response of remediators to a "mold problem"

which consists of individuals with the following illness presentation?

-

I don't know what it is, but it should be to refer the affected individuals to a qualified medical doctor for examination, preferably one board-certified in occupational and environmental medicine.

Steve Temes

[Guest guest]

I won't disagree with you on that at all, Quack. But it wouldn't be appropriate for remediation contractors to be advising their customers about which doctors they should be examined by, would it? I'll bet does, though.

Isn't it truly sad that doctors with specialization in this area of environmental medicine are considered to be either plaintiff doctors or defense doctors? It would be so much better if they were just competent doctors who diagnose and treat patients.

Shoemaker is definitely on to something revolutionary in the medical world with his genotype testing. I hope he gets lots of funding to further his work.

Steve Temes

So few doctors know anything about mold illness..

really, only a few in the country are what anyone could call "knowledgeable". Some know a lot.

A very few. less than ten, probably

Dr. Richie Shoemaker in land, really stands out as being the best by all accounts..

Thank God, the situation is improving, but the pace of change is still glacial..it seems.

knows this.. maybe he is just trying to get me to respond with this answer for you.

Despite the fact that environmental doctors are supposed to know stuff like this, my impression has been

that their primary specialty is workplace-related injuries and that they are afraid of the whole mold wilderness..

God willing that situation will change. I don't think its their fault, its just that some powerful interests are standing in the way

of this kind of knowledge moving forward...

They have to feed their families too...just like everyone else.. They don't want to stick their necks out to be cut.

What is the customary response of remediators to a "mold problem"

which consists of individuals with the following illness presentation?

-

I don't know what it is, but it should be to refer the affected individuals to a qualified medical doctor for examination, preferably one board-certified in occupational and environmental medicine.

Steve Temes

[Guest guest]

So few doctors know anything about mold illness.. really, only a few in the country are what anyone could call " knowledgeable " . Some know a lot. A very few. less than ten, probably Dr. Richie Shoemaker in land, really stands out as being the best by all accounts..

Thank God, the situation is improving, but the pace of change is still glacial..it seems. knows this.. maybe he is just trying to get me to respond with this answer for you.Despite the fact that environmental doctors are supposed to know stuff like this, my impression has been

that their primary specialty is workplace-related injuries and that they are afraid of the whole mold wilderness..God willing that situation will change. I don't think its their fault, its just that some powerful interests are standing in the way

of this kind of knowledge moving forward...They have to feed their families too...just like everyone else.. They don't want to stick their necks out to be cut.

In a message dated 12/13/2006 2:14:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

erikmoldwarrior@... writes:

What is the customary response of remediators to a " mold problem "

which consists of individuals with the following illness presentation?

-

I don't know what it is, but it should be to refer the affected individuals to a qualified medical doctor for examination, preferably one board-certified in occupational and environmental medicine.

Steve Temes

[Guest guest]

,

In addition to what Steve said I would

search for a qualified consultant to assist in surveying the perceived or purported

environment and thereafter if found to be confirmed the consultant can produce

a report. The reactive individual can then bring the document(s) to their next

visit. Hopefully a referral can be made at that point (normally what is

expected) to a specialist. I can’t see a normal primary care physician handling

these types of health issues.

I wonder if health insurance would cover

Shoemaker and traveling (if required) seeing it is a specialty. On the other

hand, it not plausible so its in their head and that would require a shrink (now

be easy, I am just kidding so don’t take it seriously).

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of AirwaysEnv@...

Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006

2:57 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re:

Proceedings of the Saratoga Conference 1994

In a message dated 12/13/2006 2:14:08 PM

Eastern Standard Time, erikmoldwarriorearthlink (DOT) net

writes:

What is the customary

response of remediators to a " mold problem "

which consists of individuals with the following illness presentation?

-

I don't know what it is, but it should be to

refer the affected individuals to a qualified medical doctor for examination,

preferably one board-certified in occupational and environmental medicine.

Steve Temes

[Guest guest]

You know, I think that we all.. everyone on this planet ... should try to think less like lawyers and more like human beings!You know, hearing about cholestyramine was a literal lifesaver for me, and I don't think that my doctor would have understood why it would help me without reading Dr. Shoemaker's time series paper. I think that a sick client would be glad to hear any information that would help. Its NOT improper to tell people things that are true.Thats why we live in America. There must be a way to do it without complicating other issues..whatever they are...

[Guest guest]

Just trying to get a sense of how often remediators encounter and/or

detect people meeting CFS criteria.

And if so, what actions are taken if/when this happens.

Given the current state of CFS disbelief, they would probably have

abandoned conventional doctors and are trying to work this out on their

own.

-

[Guest guest]

LiveSimply wrote:

> I think that a sick client would be glad to hear any information

that would help. Its NOT improper to tell people things that are true.

>

True enough, but there is something one needs to take into

consideration.

If someone doesn't recognize an unfamiliar paradigm, they have no

means of knowing if it is true - and a great deal of reason to think

that it is probably false.

Examination of the anecdotal stories in the sickbuildings group

reveals that even people who are progressing toward an illness state

that is clearly recognizable by those " who have been there and done

it " will normally fail to heed advice that is perfectly true - until

it is too late - and they reach a certain threshold of discernment

which changes their mind.

Under the circumstances in which just telling someone the truth is

no guarantee that it will be accepted, the alternative is to make

relevant information available and ask people to consider that it

might apply to them - either presently, or perhaps later.

-

[Guest guest]

Cassidy,

I am fortunate to know some good occ docs and allergists in my area (who actually know a lot about IAQ chemical and microbial issues). But if this is a priority for any IEQ consultant, how do you suggest that he/she go about finding such a competent MD who(m?) they can feel comfortable recommending?

Do you ask if they do plaintiff or defense work? That was meant to be funny, but maybe it isn't.

It took many years of my "being on the circuit" to have met the ones I know and can recommend.

Maybe the professional organization that board-certified occupational & environmental physicians belong to would be able to compile a list, organized by geographical region, of qualified doctors who welcome this type of patient and want referrals from IEQ consultants? IAQA could request it and link to it. Or do you go to the Yellow Pages? Or Google?

Steve Temes

Also, a priority for any IEQ consultant is to first

find MDs competent with chemical and biological exposures...and

allergists who perform delay-type hypersensitivity (DTH) testing.

Actually, if many here don't know what DTH reactions are and why we

should all know an allergist who can perform this form of testing -

then we should delve into this subject on this list.

Cassidy Kuchenbecker

[Guest guest]

Bob/Ma,

I posed the insurance question to an agent recently and the answer as

a 'fat chance'. Also, a priority for any IEQ consultant is to first

find MDs competent with chemical and biological exposures...and

allergists who perform delay-type hypersensitivity (DTH) testing.

Actually, if many here don't know what DTH reactions are and why we

should all know an allergist who can perform this form of testing -

then we should delve into this subject on this list.

Cassidy Kuchenbecker

>

> ,

>

>

>

> In addition to what Steve said I would search for a qualified

consultant to

> assist in surveying the perceived or purported environment and

thereafter if

> found to be confirmed the consultant can produce a report. The reactive

> individual can then bring the document(s) to their next visit.

Hopefully a

> referral can be made at that point (normally what is expected) to a

> specialist. I can't see a normal primary care physician handling

these types

> of health issues.

>

>

>

> I wonder if health insurance would cover Shoemaker and traveling (if

> required) seeing it is a specialty. On the other hand, it not

plausible so

> its in their head and that would require a shrink (now be easy, I am

just

> kidding so don't take it seriously).

>

>

>

> Bob/Ma.

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf

> Of AirwaysEnv@...

> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 2:57 PM

> To: iequality

> Subject: Re: Proceedings of the Saratoga Conference 1994

>

>

>

> In a message dated 12/13/2006 2:14:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> erikmoldwarrior@... writes:

>

> What is the customary response of remediators to a " mold problem "

> which consists of individuals with the following illness presentation?

> -

>

>

> I don't know what it is, but it should be to refer the affected

individuals

> to a qualified medical doctor for examination, preferably one

> board-certified in occupational and environmental medicine.

>

> Steve Temes

>

[Guest guest]

et al

More generally we usually (not just often) assume that the value system of others is reasonably close to our own. Much of the world, however, believes (though not using these words because they are too blunt) that a lie is good and that the truth is bad. We can manipulate a lie to our own ends but the truth is harder to manipulate. It is hard for those of us who believe that the truth will set us free to accept the above, but there is good evidence on the good lie vs bad truth statement. Many government agencies, at the senior level, act as though the above were their reality. Down in the working ranks there are many who are public servants who just want to do good work for their respective publics. This explains both a lot of the discontent in government and the "weird" things we hear from government representatives that go against what we know, reasonably well, to be quite different from what they are saying.

As a mid-level public servant I was sent, several times, to consultants that tried to teach me how to tell anything but the truth to the question asked; I never learned that well and was known to have "an attitude problem." I do so!!

Jim H. White System Science Consulting

Re: Proceedings of the Saratoga Conference 1994

LiveSimply wrote:> I think that a sick client would be glad to hear any information that would help. Its NOT improper to tell people things that are true.> True enough, but there is something one needs to take into consideration.If someone doesn't recognize an unfamiliar paradigm, they have no means of knowing if it is true - and a great deal of reason to think that it is probably false.Examination of the anecdotal stories in the sickbuildings group reveals that even people who are progressing toward an illness state that is clearly recognizable by those "who have been there and done it" will normally fail to heed advice that is perfectly true - until it is too late - and they reach a certain threshold of discernment which changes their mind.Under the circumstances in which just telling someone the truth is no guarantee that it will be accepted, the alternative is to make relevant information available and ask people to consider that it might apply to them - either presently, or perhaps later.-

[Guest guest]

Jim, Thank you for a great description of how this kind of thinking works. There are ramifications to this - the huge costs of maintaining what in effect are reality distortion systems.I read a lot of history and I see a pattern. This is what happens when empires fall. Chance after chance for peaceful change is squelched - which really means - missed - and the cost of maintaining the lies becomes so prohibitive that it begins to cost everyone but the rulers far more than simply changing the entire paradigm. Thats when revolutions happen. That is is why we are so screwed up. On 12/14/06, Jim H. White <

systemsa@...> wrote:

et al

More generally we usually (not just often) assume that the value system of others is reasonably close to our own. Much of the world, however, believes (though not using these words because they are too blunt) that a lie is good and that the truth is bad. We can manipulate a lie to our own ends but the truth is harder to manipulate. It is hard for those of us who believe that the truth will set us free to accept the above, but there is good evidence on the good lie vs bad truth statement. Many government agencies, at the senior level, act as though the above were their reality. Down in the working ranks there are many who are public servants who just want to do good work for their respective publics. This explains both a lot of the discontent in government and the " weird " things we hear from government representatives that go against what we know, reasonably well, to be quite different from what they are saying.

As a mid-level public servant I was sent, several times, to consultants that tried to teach me how to tell anything but the truth to the question asked; I never learned that well and was known to have " an attitude problem. " I do so!!

Jim H. White System Science Consulting

Re: Proceedings of the Saratoga Conference 1994

LiveSimply wrote:> I think that a sick client would be glad to hear any information that would help. Its NOT improper to tell people things that are true.> True enough, but there is something one needs to take into consideration.If someone doesn't recognize an unfamiliar paradigm, they have no means of knowing if it is true - and a great deal of reason to think that it is probably false.Examination of the anecdotal stories in the sickbuildings group reveals that even people who are progressing toward an illness state that is clearly recognizable by those " who have been there and done it " will normally fail to heed advice that is perfectly true - until it is too late - and they reach a certain threshold of discernment which changes their mind.Under the circumstances in which just telling someone the truth is no guarantee that it will be accepted, the alternative is to make relevant information available and ask people to consider that it might apply to them - either presently, or perhaps later.-

[Guest guest]

Cassidy,

I think that would be a reasonable

discussion. How much are you familiar with DTH testing? I have been trying to

get my primary care on board.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Cassidy Kuchenbecker

Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006

5:40 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re:

Proceedings of the Saratoga Conference 1994

Bob/Ma,

I posed the insurance question to an agent recently and the answer as

a 'fat chance'. Also, a priority for any IEQ consultant is to first

find MDs competent with chemical and biological exposures...and

allergists who perform delay-type hypersensitivity (DTH) testing.

Actually, if many here don't know what DTH reactions are and why we

should all know an allergist who can perform this form of testing -

then we should delve into this subject on this list.

Cassidy Kuchenbecker

>

> ,

>

>

>

> In addition to what Steve said I would search for a qualified

consultant to

> assist in surveying the perceived or purported environment and

thereafter if

> found to be confirmed the consultant can produce a report. The reactive

> individual can then bring the document(s) to their next visit.

Hopefully a

> referral can be made at that point (normally what is expected) to a

> specialist. I can't see a normal primary care physician handling

these types

> of health issues.

>

>

>

> I wonder if health insurance would cover Shoemaker and traveling (if

> required) seeing it is a specialty. On the other hand, it not

plausible so

> its in their head and that would require a shrink (now be easy, I am

just

> kidding so don't take it seriously).

>

>

>

> Bob/Ma.

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf

> Of AirwaysEnv@...

> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 2:57 PM

> To: iequality

> Subject: Re: Proceedings of the Saratoga Conference 1994

>

>

>

> In a message dated 12/13/2006 2:14:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> erikmoldwarrior@... writes:

>

> What is the customary response of remediators to a " mold

problem "

> which consists of individuals with the following illness presentation?

> -

>

>

> I don't know what it is, but it should be to refer the affected

individuals

> to a qualified medical doctor for examination, preferably one

> board-certified in occupational and environmental medicine.

>

> Steve Temes

>

[Guest guest]

LiveSimply wrote:

> There are ramifications to this - the huge costs of maintaining

what in effect are reality distortion systems.

>

> I read a lot of history and I see a pattern. This is what happens

when empires fall. Chance after chance for peaceful change is

squelched - which really means - missed - and the cost of maintaining

the lies becomes so prohibitive that it begins to cost everyone but

the rulers far more than simply changing the entire paradigm.

>

> Thats when revolutions happen.

The revolution is surely happening, but have you stopped to consider

that those who have not yet encountered the new paradigm might not be

deliberately lying?

As a history buff, perhaps you remember that the brothers hid

their flyer away after Kitty Hawk until their patents took effect.

For a couple of years, a furious debate arose over whether the craft

had actually flown or whether that one photograph and the witness

accounts were faked. Most were doubtful of the the s reasons

for hiding from public view.

Some observers were so insulted at being called liars that they had

legal affidavits drawn up attesting that they had actually witnessed

the flight.

The deniers said that the problems of flight had shown themselves to

be almost insurmountable and that more proof was required than just a

photo and a few examples of sworn testimony.

Neither side could back down.

That's how it is with a paradigm shift.

Both sides consider themselves to be the staunch defenders of the

Truth.

That's why, if you recall my stories in sickbuildings, I don't ask

people to believe me. I simply tell them to go witness the " effect "

and the evidence for themselves.

-

[Guest guest]

Cassidy, I'd like to know more about DTH and how to find a

physician. I have a new client w/ what seems like systemic hives and

has been seen by our best local doctors. He has also had a full work-

up at Mayo Clinic's allergy and dermo depts.

The physicians are stumped. I have read his records and there is no

indication that MCI has been considered, only IgE mediated

allergens. Maybe they have considered this and I'm too new on the

team to know.

I'll be running VOC, MVOC, TVOC type screening panels once I have

fully evaluated the space, gathered a history and have had time to

develop thoughts and hypothesis.

He has provided me w/ a completed QEESI profile. His masking level

is low....now. The only system affected is his skin....now.

The client is miserable as one might expect. He has just rented

another home to try and escape. His wife is fine, but worried as one

might expect.

Thanks in advance. ~Cheryl Crane, CIEC

[Guest guest]

The wing-warping technique the Brothers pioneered was a work of

genius and it may have far more use in the future than it did in the

past.

Another interesting aviation story is that of Alberto Santos-Dumont - look him up!

[Guest guest]

ciec_fl wrote:

>

> Cassidy, I'd like to know more about DTH and how to find a

> physician. I have a new client w/ what seems like systemic hives

and

> has been seen by our best local doctors. He has also had a full

work-

> up at Mayo Clinic's allergy and dermo depts.

>

> The physicians are stumped. > Thanks in advance. ~Cheryl Crane, CIEC

>

Some of the old-timers who came over from the IAQ list may

remember " and his snowy cat " , because this strange manifestation

was the final immunological insult that made me move out of my house

in 1994.

And that the top doctors in the world were baffled.

Those of us who've been through it can predict that moving may not be

enough - and almost certainly will NOT be if possessions are taken

along.

-

[Guest guest]

, though I'm sorry that your experience is first hand, thanks

for the reply.

He took his own linens, towels, clothes, new vacuum, & computer.

That said, when he moved into his oceanfront condo from his single

family home in a heavily wooded area on a golf course, he brought

his old familiar furnishings.

I have another client who has had a Glade plug-in oil type room

freshiner drip the oil onto a plastic laminate countertop. The

countertop is now impregnated by the oil and the client experiences

swollen lips, watery eyes, a severe headache when in the kitchen w/

the countertop.

We covered the top w/ sticky carpet protector and ventilated the

room well. The client was OK w/ the trace VOC level - no symptoms.

From that we feel that the symptoms are stemming from the

contaminated countertop.

I know of no way to remediate the countertop in place, and have

suggested that they replace the top(s). (Heat w/ a blow dryer - I'd

worry about blistering the laminate.)

Would you have any other suggestions?

Thanks again, ~Cheryl C Crane, CIEC

[Guest guest]

>

> , though I'm sorry that your experience is first hand, thanks

> for the reply.

> We covered the top w/ sticky carpet protector and ventilated the

> room well. The client was OK w/ the trace VOC level - no symptoms.

> From that we feel that the symptoms are stemming from the

> contaminated countertop.

>

> I know of no way to remediate the countertop in place, and have

> suggested that they replace the top(s). (Heat w/ a blow dryer - I'd

> worry about blistering the laminate.)

>

> Would you have any other suggestions?

> Thanks again, ~Cheryl C Crane, CIEC

Well yes, but I'm afraid that defending the stringency of my

strategy and specifics of my results caused me to get booted out of

the sickbuildings group.

Basically I found that with a concerted and extreme effort at

mycotoxin avoidance, my chemical sensitivities abated and are no

longer a problem for me.

I abandoned chasing around all the various substances I was

becoming reactive to, and focused solely on mold avoidance.

Amazingly enough, some sickbuildings members interpreted my

insistence that their strategy would have been inappropriate and/or

insufficient for someone at my level of illness as " arrogance " .

Examination of the messages tells the tale of this strange

resistance from the very people you would think would have a very

vested interest in pursuing a more concerted avoidance strategy, if

what they are doing isn't working for them.

I used to have to worry about air fresheners, but they no longer

seem to have any effect on me - but to accomplish this, I had to

train myself to stay away from " mold hits " and maintain a high degree

of avoidance over a long period of time.

For reasons I fail to understand, saying things like this appears to

make some people extremely upset, especially MCS'ers.

-

[Guest guest]

Bob/Ma:

I'm very familiar with DTH testing and the underlying reaction. My

masters study focuses on immunology and mycology. Unfortunatly, most

primary care physicians do not know allergists that do DTH testing.

However, you can get the physician to do a blood IgG antibody test for

various molds. The IgG antibody generates the DTH reaction.

My advice is to call all the allergists in your area and ask if they

do the DTH reaction. The key is to ask is the allergist has clients

call two days after the initial testing to say whether the test area

has started to swell.

Cassidy Kuchenbecker

> >

> > ,

> >

> >

> >

> > In addition to what Steve said I would search for a qualified

> consultant to

> > assist in surveying the perceived or purported environment and

> thereafter if

> > found to be confirmed the consultant can produce a report. The

reactive

> > individual can then bring the document(s) to their next visit.

> Hopefully a

> > referral can be made at that point (normally what is expected) to a

> > specialist. I can't see a normal primary care physician handling

> these types

> > of health issues.

> >

> >

> >

> > I wonder if health insurance would cover Shoemaker and traveling (if

> > required) seeing it is a specialty. On the other hand, it not

> plausible so

> > its in their head and that would require a shrink (now be easy, I am

> just

> > kidding so don't take it seriously).

> >

> >

> >

> > Bob/Ma.

> >

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: iequality@yahoogrou <mailto:iequality%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com

> [mailto:iequality@yahoogrou <mailto:iequality%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]

> On Behalf

> > Of AirwaysEnv@

> > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 2:57 PM

> > To: iequality@yahoogrou <mailto:iequality%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com

> > Subject: Re: Proceedings of the Saratoga Conference 1994

> >

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 12/13/2006 2:14:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> > erikmoldwarrior@ writes:

> >

> > What is the customary response of remediators to a " mold problem "

> > which consists of individuals with the following illness presentation?

> > -

> >

> >

> > I don't know what it is, but it should be to refer the affected

> individuals

> > to a qualified medical doctor for examination, preferably one

> > board-certified in occupational and environmental medicine.

> >

> > Steve Temes

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Cheryl:

See my last post regarding calling local allergists and asking two

specific questions. If they mumble and fumble their way through the

question, or if you get a dead silence, call someone else. Also, as I

stated, and IgG blood test can be ran by the physicians. The DTH

response may show as hives, in fact, the DTH response is the basis for

your reaction to poison ivy.

Cassidy Kuchenbecker

>

> Cassidy, I'd like to know more about DTH and how to find a

> physician. I have a new client w/ what seems like systemic hives and

> has been seen by our best local doctors. He has also had a full work-

> up at Mayo Clinic's allergy and dermo depts.

>

> The physicians are stumped. I have read his records and there is no

> indication that MCI has been considered, only IgE mediated

> allergens. Maybe they have considered this and I'm too new on the

> team to know.

>

> I'll be running VOC, MVOC, TVOC type screening panels once I have

> fully evaluated the space, gathered a history and have had time to

> develop thoughts and hypothesis.

>

> He has provided me w/ a completed QEESI profile. His masking level

> is low....now. The only system affected is his skin....now.

>

> The client is miserable as one might expect. He has just rented

> another home to try and escape. His wife is fine, but worried as one

> might expect.

>

> Thanks in advance. ~Cheryl Crane, CIEC

>