Re: Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

[Guest guest]

I took the AMRT (IICRC) training from Restcon. They did not teach coating.

In our experience there are several reasons to coat although we have never used the Anabec product. Wee have used encapsulants from and Design Polymerics.

1.) We do not think this is a valid reason but many people coat because they can charge by the square foot and this is how the can make a good profit margin.

2.) When you encapsulate you know that mold will not grow on that surface even if it gets a little wet. In an attic there is almost always some moisture from sweating AC ducts or whatever. So encapsulation gives you added protection.

3.) When you encapsulate it is easy to provide clearance. If everything is white ... you take a picture and you are clear. (We also require pictures of wood structural members before encapsulation.)

Rosen

Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

Group:

I'm currently working on a project that involved a fairly modest water loss in the attic of a single family residence. The source was a kinked condensate line from the forced-air A/C unit located in the attic (space heat is via a combination of radiant floor and hot water fin-tube convectors).

A limited area of the blown-in cellulose insulation and adjoining framing was wet; fungal growth was visible on the trusses. The amount of water released was not enough to flow through the poly vapor retarder and did not significantly damage the underlying gyp-board ceiling.

The remediation contractor removed all of the insulation from the entire ~1200 sq ft attic, used ice blasting to remove fungal materials from the affected framing elements, then initially used Anabec cleaning, disinfecting and protective products. To shorten a longer story, he subsequently returned to the home, used a Zinsser disinfectant and then sprayed clear PermaGuard on every square inch of the framing, poly vapor retarder, and OSB roof decking (plus the DWV piping, fireplace flue, etc.). BTW, PermaGuard contains small quantities of chlorothalonil (an EPA-registered pesticide), but the coating itself is not EPA registered.

When I asked why he coated every square inch of every surface in the attic (even those that had not been water damaged) the remediator responded that he was instructed to do so during training at the IICRC. He named the specific instructors, and they are familiar persons within the IICRC. Their names are not of critical importance in this inquiry.

Here are my questions -- I'd appreciate your feedback.

1. Has anyone else been instructed to use a coating in this way by the IICRC or by others? If so, what thought process was used or justification provided?

2. Does anyone have any experience in using this coating over the Anabec "Anashield"? Could there be a chemical compatibility concern? Could the "organosilane" (Anashield) inhibit or slow curing of the PermaGuard (a "latex acrylic resin interior sealer")?

Replies either on this list or privately (wab -at- michaelsengineering .com) are welcome.

TIA.

Wane <><><><><><><><><><><>Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIHDivision Manager, Indoor Air QualityMICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions."811 Monitor Street, Suite 100PO Box 2377La Crosse, Wisconsin 54602 Phone , ext. 484Cell Fax mailto:wab@michaels engineering. comOn the web at: http://www.michaels engineering. com "To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?"- Graham NOTICE: This e-mail and

any attachments may contain confidential information. Use and further disclosure of the information by the recipient must be consistent with applicable laws, regulations and agreements. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender; delete the e-mail; and do not use, disclose or store the information it contains.

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[Guest guest]

I would LOVE to hear from the manufacturer's of the products that are being used in this manner (Cole where are you), and from the EPA guys. My understanding from the chemical side is that it is illegal to use the products inconsistent to product labeling. I have read articles where contractors have gone to jail and were fined pretty heavily for this...

It is my further understanding that EPA registered products require that mold be removed prior to applying a chemical.

Can someone verify this for me?????

Larkin, CRMI, WRT

ERS Services

elires@...

I find that it is not the circumstances in which we are placed, but the spirit in which we face them, that constitutes our comfort.- T. KingThat's what learning is, after all; not whether we lose the game, but how we lose and how we've changed because of it and what we take away from it that we never had before, to apply to other games. Losing, in a curious way, is winning.- Bach from "The Bridge Across Forever"

Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

Group:

I'm currently working on a project that involved a fairly modest water loss in the attic of a single family residence. The source was a kinked condensate line from the forced-air A/C unit located in the attic (space heat is via a combination of radiant floor and hot water fin-tube convectors).

A limited area of the blown-in cellulose insulation and adjoining framing was wet; fungal growth was visible on the trusses. The amount of water released was not enough to flow through the poly vapor retarder and did not significantly damage the underlying gyp-board ceiling.

The remediation contractor removed all of the insulation from the entire ~1200 sq ft attic, used ice blasting to remove fungal materials from the affected framing elements, then initially used Anabec cleaning, disinfecting and protective products. To shorten a longer story, he subsequently returned to the home, used a Zinsser disinfectant and then sprayed clear PermaGuard on every square inch of the framing, poly vapor retarder, and OSB roof decking (plus the DWV piping, fireplace flue, etc.). BTW, PermaGuard contains small quantities of chlorothalonil (an EPA-registered pesticide), but the coating itself is not EPA registered.

When I asked why he coated every square inch of every surface in the attic (even those that had not been water damaged) the remediator responded that he was instructed to do so during training at the IICRC. He named the specific instructors, and they are familiar persons within the IICRC. Their names are not of critical importance in this inquiry.

Here are my questions -- I'd appreciate your feedback.

1. Has anyone else been instructed to use a coating in this way by the IICRC or by others? If so, what thought process was used or justification provided?

2. Does anyone have any experience in using this coating over the Anabec "Anashield"? Could there be a chemical compatibility concern? Could the "organosilane" (Anashield) inhibit or slow curing of the PermaGuard (a "latex acrylic resin interior sealer")?

Replies either on this list or privately (wab -at- michaelsengineering .com) are welcome.

TIA.

Wane <><><><><><><><><><><>Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIHDivision Manager, Indoor Air QualityMICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions."811 Monitor Street, Suite 100PO Box 2377La Crosse, Wisconsin 54602 Phone , ext. 484Cell Fax mailto:wab@michaels engineering. comOn the web at: http://www.michaels engineering. com "To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?"- Graham NOTICE: This e-mail and

any attachments may contain confidential information. Use and further disclosure of the information by the recipient must be consistent with applicable laws, regulations and agreements. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender; delete the e-mail; and do not use, disclose or store the information it contains.

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[Guest guest]

Bob,

If the client does not like the protocol then they won't hire that person ... unless of course the cost is much less. Then they probably will hire them anyway.

When remediating a large attic space for example ... bleach followed by encapsulation can reduce the cost of remediation by a huge amount. Strong bleach removes mold. It does not just kill it like Microban, MDF-500 etc.

When remediating a real estate transaction, a picture of the remediated wall with all the studs completely white because they are covered with white encapsulant has always resulted in a happy buyer (in my experience.) Buyers will never understand or trust lab tests but seeing is believing.

Rosen

Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

Group:

I'm currently working on a project that involved a fairly modest water loss in the attic of a single family residence. The source was a kinked condensate line from the forced-air A/C unit located in the attic (space heat is via a combination of radiant floor and hot water fin-tube convectors).

A limited area of the blown-in cellulose insulation and adjoining framing was wet; fungal growth was visible on the trusses. The amount of water released was not enough to flow through the poly vapor retarder and did not significantly damage the underlying gyp-board ceiling.

The remediation contractor removed all of the insulation from the entire ~1200 sq ft attic, used ice blasting to remove fungal materials from the affected framing elements, then initially used Anabec cleaning, disinfecting and protective products. To shorten a longer story, he subsequently returned to the home, used a Zinsser disinfectant and then sprayed clear PermaGuard on every square inch of the framing, poly vapor retarder, and OSB roof decking (plus the DWV piping, fireplace flue, etc.). BTW, PermaGuard contains small quantities of chlorothalonil (an EPA-registered pesticide), but the coating itself is not EPA registered.

When I asked why he coated every square inch of every surface in the attic (even those that had not been water damaged) the remediator responded that he was instructed to do so during training at the IICRC. He named the specific instructors, and they are familiar persons within the IICRC. Their names are not of critical importance in this inquiry.

Here are my questions -- I'd appreciate your feedback.

1. Has anyone else been instructed to use a coating in this way by the IICRC or by others? If so, what thought process was used or justification provided?

2. Does anyone have any experience in using this coating over the Anabec "Anashield"? Could there be a chemical compatibility concern? Could the "organosilane" (Anashield) inhibit or slow curing of the PermaGuard (a "latex acrylic resin interior sealer")?

Replies either on this list or privately (wab -at- michaelsengineering .com) are welcome.

TIA.

Wane <><><><><><><><><><><>Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIHDivision Manager, Indoor Air QualityMICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions."811 Monitor Street, Suite 100PO Box 2377La Crosse, Wisconsin 54602 Phone , ext. 484Cell Fax mailto:wab@michaels engineering. comOn the web at: http://www.michaels engineering. com "To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?"- Graham NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. Use and further disclosure of the information by the recipient must be consistent with applicable laws, regulations and agreements. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender; delete the e-mail; and do not use, disclose or store the information it contains.

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[Guest guest]

Wane,

I personally do not believe in using

coatings if at all possible (as noted in my earlier post). So far I have not had

the need. Clean, Clean, and Clean some more.

I have not had such good results with Anabec

(when I used it). Neither do I agree with their promotion of the “leave

in place” and “no need to remove contaminated building materials”

(last I knew) that Anabec has promoting.

You bring up very good questions surrounding

the impact of multiple unrelated sealing applications. If you have not, I would

suggest sending out a sample of the materials for analysis to answer some of

your questions?

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Wane A. Baker

Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006

2:41 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Coatings and

remediator instruction at IICRC?

Group:

I'm

currently working on a project that involved a fairly modest water loss in the

attic of a single family residence. The source was a kinked condensate

line from the forced-air A/C unit located in the attic (space heat is via a

combination of radiant floor and hot water fin-tube convectors).

A

limited area of the blown-in cellulose insulation and adjoining framing was

wet; fungal growth was visible on the trusses. The amount of water

released was not enough to flow through the poly vapor retarder and did not

significantly damage the underlying gyp-board ceiling.

The

remediation contractor removed all of the insulation from the entire ~1200 sq

ft attic, used ice blasting to remove fungal materials from the affected

framing elements, then initially

used Anabec cleaning, disinfecting and protective products. To shorten a

longer story, he subsequently

returned to the home, used a Zinsser disinfectant and then sprayed clear

PermaGuard on every square inch of the framing, poly vapor retarder, and OSB roof

decking (plus the DWV piping, fireplace flue, etc.). BTW,

PermaGuard contains small quantities of chlorothalonil (an EPA-registered

pesticide), but the coating itself is not EPA registered.

When

I asked why he coated every square inch of every surface in the attic (even

those that had not been water damaged) the remediator responded that he was

instructed to do so during training at the IICRC. He named the specific

instructors, and they are familiar persons within the IICRC. Their names

are not of critical importance in this inquiry.

Here

are my questions -- I'd appreciate your feedback.

1.

Has anyone else been instructed to use a coating in this way by the IICRC or by

others? If so, what thought process was used or justification

provided?

2.

Does anyone have any experience in using this coating over the Anabec

" Anashield " ? Could there be a chemical compatibility

concern? Could the " organosilane " (Anashield) inhibit or slow

curing of the PermaGuard (a " latex acrylic resin interior sealer " )?

Replies

either on this list or privately (wab -at- michaelsengineering.com) are

welcome.

TIA.

Wane

<><><><><><><><><><><>

Wane

A. Baker, P.E., CIH

Division

Manager, Indoor Air Quality

MICHAELS

ENGINEERING

" Real Professionals. Real Solutions. "

811 Monitor Street, Suite

100

PO Box

2377

La Crosse,

Wisconsin 54602

Phone

, ext. 484

Cell

Fax

mailto:wabmichaelsengineering

On the

web at: http://www.michaelsengineering.com

" To

love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more

fun? "

-

Graham

NOTICE:

This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. Use and

further disclosure of the information by the recipient must be consistent with

applicable laws, regulations and agreements. If you received this e-mail in

error, please notify the sender; delete the e-mail; and do not use, disclose or

store the information it contains.

[Guest guest]

What about dry ice blasting for attics? I don't think that many biocides address mycotoxins. In fact, from what I have heard, many of them end up increasing the amount of mycotoxin in the environment because they liberate the toxins from the mold itself. Also, don't many of those biocides or encapsulants carry the possibility of other health issues with them? Also, what happens when the encapsulant breaks down? If there are mycotoxins in the space, the encapsulant could end up carrying mycotoxin in its pulverized dust just like mold often does. With the same issues.

Bob,

If the client does not like the protocol then they won't hire that person ... unless of course the cost is much less. Then they probably will hire them anyway.

When remediating a large attic space for example ... bleach followed by encapsulation can reduce the cost of remediation by a huge amount. Strong bleach removes mold. It does not just kill it like Microban, MDF-500 etc.

When remediating a real estate transaction, a picture of the remediated wall with all the studs completely white because they are covered with white encapsulant has always resulted in a happy buyer (in my experience.) Buyers will never understand or trust lab tests but seeing is believing.

Rosen

RE: Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

,

If I were to buy a home and I found it was sealed I would not buy it. Sealing does not tell me it was completed correctly. Furthermore, no one can tell me when the sealant will breakdown. Who owns the problem at that point? Will the sealants become an issue due to chemicals in the near future? Restoring the area to pre-loss condition is no coating when started, no coating when completed.

I see most coatings are to cover up what hasn't been cleaned correctly. And who will know after its been coated? The contractor made good quick money only to become the clients problems later in time (or the new owner's).

I do not allow coating on my projects besides the area is required to be cleaned prior to coating so why coat? Why add another chemical when not necessary? If it's a moisture problem, doesn't the S520 and every other document say mitigate the moisture problem? So if the moisture problems is resolved, why coat?

Bob/Ma

[Guest guest]

WOW, ! When did bleach get an EPA registration for use during mold remediation? What does the manufacturer recommend as a mixing factor for use during a mold project? Or better yet, what is on the product labeling?

And strong bleach, what about the new VOC's you are introducing?

Larkin, CRMI, WRT

ERS Services

elires@...

I find that it is not the circumstances in which we are placed, but the spirit in which we face them, that constitutes our comfort.- T. KingThat's what learning is, after all; not whether we lose the game, but how we lose and how we've changed because of it and what we take away from it that we never had before, to apply to other games. Losing, in a curious way, is winning.- Bach from "The Bridge Across Forever"

Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

Group:

I'm currently working on a project that involved a fairly modest water loss in the attic of a single family residence. The source was a kinked condensate line from the forced-air A/C unit located in the attic (space heat is via a combination of radiant floor and hot water fin-tube convectors).

A limited area of the blown-in cellulose insulation and adjoining framing was wet; fungal growth was visible on the trusses. The amount of water released was not enough to flow through the poly vapor retarder and did not significantly damage the underlying gyp-board ceiling.

The remediation contractor removed all of the insulation from the entire ~1200 sq ft attic, used ice blasting to remove fungal materials from the affected framing elements, then initially used Anabec cleaning, disinfecting and protective products. To shorten a longer story, he subsequently returned to the home, used a Zinsser disinfectant and then sprayed clear PermaGuard on every square inch of the framing, poly vapor retarder, and OSB roof decking (plus the DWV piping, fireplace flue, etc.). BTW, PermaGuard contains small quantities of chlorothalonil (an EPA-registered pesticide), but the coating itself is not EPA registered.

When I asked why he coated every square inch of every surface in the attic (even those that had not been water damaged) the remediator responded that he was instructed to do so during training at the IICRC. He named the specific instructors, and they are familiar persons within the IICRC. Their names are not of critical importance in this inquiry.

Here are my questions -- I'd appreciate your feedback.

1. Has anyone else been instructed to use a coating in this way by the IICRC or by others? If so, what thought process was used or justification provided?

2. Does anyone have any experience in using this coating over the Anabec "Anashield"? Could there be a chemical compatibility concern? Could the "organosilane" (Anashield) inhibit or slow curing of the PermaGuard (a "latex acrylic resin interior sealer")?

Replies either on this list or privately (wab -at- michaelsengineering .com) are welcome.

TIA.

Wane <><><><><><><><><><><>Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIHDivision Manager, Indoor Air QualityMICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions."811 Monitor Street, Suite 100PO Box 2377La Crosse, Wisconsin 54602 Phone , ext. 484Cell Fax mailto:wab@michaels engineering. comOn the web at: http://www.michaels engineering. com "To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?"- Graham NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. Use and further disclosure of the information by the recipient must be consistent with applicable laws, regulations and agreements. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender; delete the e-mail; and do not use, disclose or store the information it contains.

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

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[Guest guest]

I personally do not believe in leaving mold in place and then coating it. Is that what the Anabec system is?

Remove the mold. Restore to like-new condition. We never encapsulate mold. We only encapsulate clean materials for the purpose of preventing mold returning and to make PRV easy and because things painted white look good to our clients.

Rosen

Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

Group:

I'm currently working on a project that involved a fairly modest water loss in the attic of a single family residence. The source was a kinked condensate line from the forced-air A/C unit located in the attic (space heat is via a combination of radiant floor and hot water fin-tube convectors).

A limited area of the blown-in cellulose insulation and adjoining framing was wet; fungal growth was visible on the trusses. The amount of water released was not enough to flow through the poly vapor retarder and did not significantly damage the underlying gyp-board ceiling.

The remediation contractor removed all of the insulation from the entire ~1200 sq ft attic, used ice blasting to remove fungal materials from the affected framing elements, then initially used Anabec cleaning, disinfecting and protective products. To shorten a longer story, he subsequently returned to the home, used a Zinsser disinfectant and then sprayed clear PermaGuard on every square inch of the framing, poly vapor retarder, and OSB roof decking (plus the DWV piping, fireplace flue, etc.). BTW, PermaGuard contains small quantities of chlorothalonil (an EPA-registered pesticide), but the coating itself is not EPA registered.

When I asked why he coated every square inch of every surface in the attic (even those that had not been water damaged) the remediator responded that he was instructed to do so during training at the IICRC. He named the specific instructors, and they are familiar persons within the IICRC. Their names are not of critical importance in this inquiry.

Here are my questions -- I'd appreciate your feedback.

1. Has anyone else been instructed to use a coating in this way by the IICRC or by others? If so, what thought process was used or justification provided?

2. Does anyone have any experience in using this coating over the Anabec "Anashield"? Could there be a chemical compatibility concern? Could the "organosilane" (Anashield) inhibit or slow curing of the PermaGuard (a "latex acrylic resin interior sealer")?

Replies either on this list or privately (wab -at- michaelsengineering .com) are welcome.

TIA.

Wane <><><><><><><><><><><>Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIHDivision Manager, Indoor Air QualityMICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions."811 Monitor Street, Suite 100PO Box 2377La Crosse, Wisconsin 54602 Phone , ext. 484Cell Fax mailto:wab@michaels engineering. comOn the web at: http://www.michaels engineering. com "To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?"- Graham NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. Use and further disclosure of the information by the recipient must be consistent with applicable laws, regulations and agreements. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender; delete the e-mail; and do not use, disclose or store the information it contains.

Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

>>I don't think that many biocides address mycotoxins. In fact, from what I have heard, many of them end up increasing the amount of mycotoxin in the environment because they liberate the toxins from the mold itself.

Strong bleach will destroy the mold and the spores and the toxins. Not many other biocides will destroy all three.

>>Also, what happens when the encapsulant breaks down? If there are mycotoxins in the space, the encapsulant could end up carrying mycotoxin in its pulverized dust just like mold often does. With the same issues.

The encapsulant is a thick specialized latex paint. It is very strong and stable.

Rosen

RE: Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

,

If I were to buy a home and I found it was sealed I would not buy it. Sealing does not tell me it was completed correctly. Furthermore, no one can tell me when the sealant will breakdown. Who owns the problem at that point? Will the sealants become an issue due to chemicals in the near future? Restoring the area to pre-loss condition is no coating when started, no coating when completed.

I see most coatings are to cover up what hasn't been cleaned correctly. And who will know after its been coated? The contractor made good quick money only to become the clients problems later in time (or the new owner's).

I do not allow coating on my projects besides the area is required to be cleaned prior to coating so why coat? Why add another chemical when not necessary? If it's a moisture problem, doesn't the S520 and every other document say mitigate the moisture problem? So if the moisture problems is resolved, why coat?

Bob/Ma

Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Did you ever use Tilex? 50% bleach. For use on mold. Works great. Check the label and MSDS. http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/products/msds/index.html

Rosen

Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

Group:

I'm currently working on a project that involved a fairly modest water loss in the attic of a single family residence. The source was a kinked condensate line from the forced-air A/C unit located in the attic (space heat is via a combination of radiant floor and hot water fin-tube convectors).

A limited area of the blown-in cellulose insulation and adjoining framing was wet; fungal growth was visible on the trusses. The amount of water released was not enough to flow through the poly vapor retarder and did not significantly damage the underlying gyp-board ceiling.

The remediation contractor removed all of the insulation from the entire ~1200 sq ft attic, used ice blasting to remove fungal materials from the affected framing elements, then initially used Anabec cleaning, disinfecting and protective products. To shorten a longer story, he subsequently returned to the home, used a Zinsser disinfectant and then sprayed clear PermaGuard on every square inch of the framing, poly vapor retarder, and OSB roof decking (plus the DWV piping, fireplace flue, etc.). BTW, PermaGuard contains small quantities of chlorothalonil (an EPA-registered pesticide), but the coating itself is not EPA registered.

When I asked why he coated every square inch of every surface in the attic (even those that had not been water damaged) the remediator responded that he was instructed to do so during training at the IICRC. He named the specific instructors, and they are familiar persons within the IICRC. Their names are not of critical importance in this inquiry.

Here are my questions -- I'd appreciate your feedback.

1. Has anyone else been instructed to use a coating in this way by the IICRC or by others? If so, what thought process was used or justification provided?

2. Does anyone have any experience in using this coating over the Anabec "Anashield"? Could there be a chemical compatibility concern? Could the "organosilane" (Anashield) inhibit or slow curing of the PermaGuard (a "latex acrylic resin interior sealer")?

Replies either on this list or privately (wab -at- michaelsengineering .com) are welcome.

TIA.

Wane <><><><><><><><><><><>Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIHDivision Manager, Indoor Air QualityMICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions."811 Monitor Street, Suite 100PO Box 2377La Crosse, Wisconsin 54602 Phone , ext. 484Cell Fax mailto:wab@michaels engineering. comOn the web at: http://www.michaels engineering. com "To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?"- Graham NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. Use and further disclosure of the information by the recipient must be consistent with applicable laws, regulations and agreements. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender; delete the e-mail; and do not use, disclose or store the information it contains.

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

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[Guest guest]

Carl,

I believe that most would agree that a picture of a wall that was previously moldy and is now replaced new drywall is generally harder to fake than some air samples. That's what I mean by seeing is believing. It is easier to deceive a client with bogus interpretation of clearance results than pictures of moldy materials replaced with new.

I do about 1/2 of my work for attorneys. Juries understand pictures better lab tests. For a jury "seeing is believing". No matter what type of results you get from lab testing an opposing attorney can find problems with it or appear to find problems enough to confuse a jury. We take alot of pictures during our jobs.

Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?> Group: I'm currently working on a project that involved a fairly> modest water loss in the attic of a single family residence. The> source was a kinked condensate line from the forced-air A/C unit> located in the attic (space heat is via a combination of radiant floor> and hot water fin-tube convectors). A limited area of the blown-in> cellulose insulation and adjoining framing was wet; fungal growth was> visible on the trusses. The amount of water released was not enough to> flow through the poly vapor retarder and did not significantly damage> the underlying gyp- board ceiling. The remediation contractor removed> all of the

insulation from the entire ~1200 sq ft attic, used ice> blasting to remove fungal materials from the affected framing> elements, then initially used Anabec cleaning, disinfecting and> protective products. To shorten a longer story, he subsequently> returned to the home, used a Zinsser disinfectant and then sprayed> clear PermaGuard on every square inch of the framing, poly vapor> retarder, and OSB roof decking (plus the DWV piping, fireplace flue,> etc.). BTW, PermaGuard contains small quantities of chlorothalonil (an> EPA-registered pesticide), but the coating itself is not EPA> registered. When I asked why he coated every square inch of every> surface in the attic (even those that had not been water damaged) the> remediator responded that he was instructed to do so during training> at the IICRC. He named the specific instructors, and they are familiar> persons within the IICRC.

Their names are not of critical importance> in this inquiry. Here are my questions -- I'd appreciate your> feedback. 1. Has anyone else been instructed to use a coating in this> way by the IICRC or by others? If so, what thought process was used or> justification provided? 2. Does anyone have any experience in using> this coating over the Anabec "Anashield"? Could there be a chemical> compatibility concern? Could the "organosilane" (Anashield) inhibit or> slow curing of the PermaGuard (a "latex acrylic resin interior> sealer")? Replies either on this list or privately (wab -at-> michaelsengineering .com) are welcome. TIA. Wane> <><><><><><> <><><><>< > Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIH Division Manager,> Indoor Air Quality MICHAELS ENGINEERING "Real Professionals. Real> Solutions." 811 Monitor Street, Suite 100 PO Box 2377 La

Crosse,> Wisconsin 54602 Phone , ext. 484 Cell Fax> mailto:wab@michaels engineering. com On the web at: > > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.> > > > > > > > > > > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.> >

Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

[Guest guest]

Hi Wane

If you call at Anabec She may be able to point you to the formulation chemist. I would be fairly confident to say the warranty is compromised.

www.anabec.com/media/20_Year_Warranty.pdf

Is this the same Perma-Guard as in 88% silica dioxide, (Household D-20, Diatomaceous Earth) ? Silicanosis risk?

http://depts.washington.edu/envhlth/info/biennial_report_99_01/what_breathing.html

With these two possibilities looming, I would be prepared to see the remediator once again fill that attic with CO2 and start from scratch. Unless of couse the customers signed something to have it done.

Good Luck

Valin

[Guest guest]

Go to the store and buy Tilex. Read the label. Who cares about Basiospores and bleach. Try it on Pen/Asp. Disolves it.

Mold does not penetrate wood. It only grows on the first 100-200 mircons as I recall from my IICRC training. Are you thinking dryrot.?

Rosen

Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

Group:

I'm currently working on a project that involved a fairly modest water loss in the attic of a single family residence. The source was a kinked condensate line from the forced-air A/C unit located in the attic (space heat is via a combination of radiant floor and hot water fin-tube convectors).

A limited area of the blown-in cellulose insulation and adjoining framing was wet; fungal growth was visible on the trusses. The amount of water released was not enough to flow through the poly vapor retarder and did not significantly damage the underlying gyp-board ceiling.

The remediation contractor removed all of the insulation from the entire ~1200 sq ft attic, used ice blasting to remove fungal materials from the affected framing elements, then initially used Anabec cleaning, disinfecting and protective products. To shorten a longer story, he subsequently returned to the home, used a Zinsser disinfectant and then sprayed clear PermaGuard on every square inch of the framing, poly vapor retarder, and OSB roof decking (plus the DWV piping, fireplace flue, etc.). BTW, PermaGuard contains small quantities of chlorothalonil (an EPA-registered pesticide), but the coating itself is not EPA registered.

When I asked why he coated every square inch of every surface in the attic (even those that had not been water damaged) the remediator responded that he was instructed to do so during training at the IICRC. He named the specific instructors, and they are familiar persons within the IICRC. Their names are not of critical importance in this inquiry.

Here are my questions -- I'd appreciate your feedback.

1. Has anyone else been instructed to use a coating in this way by the IICRC or by others? If so, what thought process was used or justification provided?

2. Does anyone have any experience in using this coating over the Anabec "Anashield"? Could there be a chemical compatibility concern? Could the "organosilane" (Anashield) inhibit or slow curing of the PermaGuard (a "latex acrylic resin interior sealer")?

Replies either on this list or privately (wab -at- michaelsengineering .com) are welcome.

TIA.

Wane <><><><><><><><><><><>Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIHDivision Manager, Indoor Air QualityMICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions."811 Monitor Street, Suite 100PO Box 2377La Crosse, Wisconsin 54602 Phone , ext. 484Cell Fax mailto:wab@michaels engineering. comOn the web at: http://www.michaels engineering. com "To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?"- Graham NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. Use and further disclosure of the information by the recipient must be consistent with applicable laws, regulations and agreements. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender; delete the e-mail; and do not use, disclose or store the information it contains.

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[Guest guest]

This is NOT what I have heard again and again. What people (responsible remediation pros) have told me is that encapsulants often don't remove mycotoxins or completely destroy them. Also, they break down in time, and in some situations, its not such a long time. Bleach is also by itself a toxin in many ways. It needs to be removed fully.I also see a strong danger in that many unscrupuous people will seize on any cheap, non time intensive 'solution' simply to get an immediate problem (complaining tenants, employees, etc.) off of their backs and will not address whatever underlying problems brought them to that place.

Then the mold issue will remain, even if it is hidden for a time, it will return. Hidden reservoirs will never be dicovered or cleaned out.Those hidden reservoirs, for example, inside of walls, cannot be effectively sealed off unless they are found in the first place. See the discussion of this at http://lib.tkk.fi/Diss/2003/isbn9512267756/ (especially article 6 scroll to bottom of page for link - This is a must read..)

Also, latex is prone to being fed on by molds such as aspergillus fumigatus, which when it grows in a latex paint environment tends to produce high amounts of ergot alkaloids (which are toxic and also psychoactive, closely related to some illegal drugs, see the link here: http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/6/3106 )*sigh*On 12/11/06, gary rosen

wrote:

>>I don't think that many biocides address mycotoxins. In fact, from what I have heard, many of them end up increasing the amount of mycotoxin in the environment because they liberate the toxins from the mold itself.

Strong bleach will destroy the mold and the spores and the toxins. Not many other biocides will destroy all three.

>>Also, what happens when the encapsulant breaks down? If there are mycotoxins in the space, the encapsulant could end up carrying mycotoxin in its pulverized dust just like mold often does. With the same issues.

The encapsulant is a thick specialized latex paint. It is very strong and stable.

Rosen

Re: Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

What about dry ice blasting for attics? I don't think that many biocides address mycotoxins. In fact, from what I have heard, many of them end up increasing the amount of mycotoxin in the environment because they liberate the toxins from the mold itself. Also, don't many of those biocides or encapsulants carry the possibility of other health issues with them? Also, what happens when the encapsulant breaks down? If there are mycotoxins in the space, the encapsulant could end up carrying mycotoxin in its pulverized dust just like mold often does. With the same issues.

On 12/11/06, gary rosen <

garyrosen72652@ yahoo.com> wrote:

Bob,

If the client does not like the protocol then they won't hire that person ... unless of course the cost is much less. Then they probably will hire them anyway.

When remediating a large attic space for example ... bleach followed by encapsulation can reduce the cost of remediation by a huge amount. Strong bleach removes mold. It does not just kill it like Microban, MDF-500 etc.

When remediating a real estate transaction, a picture of the remediated wall with all the studs completely white because they are covered with white encapsulant has always resulted in a happy buyer (in my experience.) Buyers will never understand or trust lab tests but seeing is believing.

Rosen

[Guest guest]

Few if any coatings will prevent mold returning, since the mold can grow quite well on a layer of dust on the treated surface. This has been proven many times on many surfaces. Research/search for the work by Karin Foarde amoungst others.

Jim H. White

Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

Group:

I'm currently working on a project that involved a fairly modest water loss in the attic of a single family residence. The source was a kinked condensate line from the forced-air A/C unit located in the attic (space heat is via a combination of radiant floor and hot water fin-tube convectors).

A limited area of the blown-in cellulose insulation and adjoining framing was wet; fungal growth was visible on the trusses. The amount of water released was not enough to flow through the poly vapor retarder and did not significantly damage the underlying gyp-board ceiling.

The remediation contractor removed all of the insulation from the entire ~1200 sq ft attic, used ice blasting to remove fungal materials from the affected framing elements, then initially used Anabec cleaning, disinfecting and protective products. To shorten a longer story, he subsequently returned to the home, used a Zinsser disinfectant and then sprayed clear PermaGuard on every square inch of the framing, poly vapor retarder, and OSB roof decking (plus the DWV piping, fireplace flue, etc.). BTW, PermaGuard contains small quantities of chlorothalonil (an EPA-registered pesticide), but the coating itself is not EPA registered.

When I asked why he coated every square inch of every surface in the attic (even those that had not been water damaged) the remediator responded that he was instructed to do so during training at the IICRC. He named the specific instructors, and they are familiar persons within the IICRC. Their names are not of critical importance in this inquiry.

Here are my questions -- I'd appreciate your feedback.

1. Has anyone else been instructed to use a coating in this way by the IICRC or by others? If so, what thought process was used or justification provided?

2. Does anyone have any experience in using this coating over the Anabec "Anashield"? Could there be a chemical compatibility concern? Could the "organosilane" (Anashield) inhibit or slow curing of the PermaGuard (a "latex acrylic resin interior sealer")?

Replies either on this list or privately (wab -at- michaelsengineering .com) are welcome.

TIA.

Wane <><><><><><><><><><><>Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIHDivision Manager, Indoor Air QualityMICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions."811 Monitor Street, Suite 100PO Box 2377La Crosse, Wisconsin 54602 Phone , ext. 484Cell Fax mailto:wab@michaels engineering. comOn the web at: http://www.michaels engineering. com "To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?"- Graham NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. Use and further disclosure of the information by the recipient must be consistent with applicable laws, regulations and agreements. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender; delete the e-mail; and do not use, disclose or store the information it contains.

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[Guest guest]

:

You said:

1. Go to the store and buy Tilex. Read the label. Who

cares about Basiospores and bleach. Try it on Pen/Asp. Disolves

it.

-

I have seen it NOT work after 3

applications – seen as in tape lifts under the microscope.

-

As for “Who cares about Basiospore”

- I do – they are what cause building damage

2. Mold does not penetrate wood. It only grows on the first

100-200 mircons as I recall from my IICRC training. Are you thinking

dryrot.?

-

generally penetration is limited

but Cl- free ions are even more limited – take a piece of moldy wood bleach it,

take a cross section and look at it. I will say the it does depend on the

level of impact of the fungus to begin with.

-

I didn’t say recall it, I said

test it and look at it as I have. Otherwise doublecheck you information and

the value of the source.

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics,

CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

PO Box 34140

Indianapolis, IN 46234

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to

place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and

any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and

are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the

addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed

to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message

and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and

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sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or

distributed without this statement.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006

4:43 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Coatings

and remediator instruction at IICRC?

Go to the store and buy Tilex. Read the label. Who cares

about Basiospores and bleach. Try it on Pen/Asp. Disolves it.

Mold does not penetrate wood. It only grows on the first 100-200

mircons as I recall from my IICRC training. Are you thinking dryrot.?

Rosen

Coatings and remediator instruction at IICRC?

Group:

I'm

currently working on a project that involved a fairly modest water loss in the

attic of a single family residence. The source was a kinked condensate

line from the forced-air A/C unit located in the attic (space heat is via a

combination of radiant floor and hot water fin-tube convectors).

A

limited area of the blown-in cellulose insulation and adjoining framing was

wet; fungal growth was visible on the trusses. The amount of water

released was not enough to flow through the poly vapor retarder and did not

significantly damage the underlying gyp-board ceiling.

The

remediation contractor removed all of the insulation from the entire ~1200 sq

ft attic, used ice blasting to remove fungal materials from the affected

framing elements, then initially

used Anabec cleaning, disinfecting and protective products. To shorten a

longer story, he subsequently

returned to the home, used a Zinsser disinfectant and then sprayed clear

PermaGuard on every square inch of the framing, poly vapor retarder, and OSB

roof decking (plus the DWV piping, fireplace flue, etc.). BTW,

PermaGuard contains small quantities of chlorothalonil (an EPA-registered

pesticide), but the coating itself is not EPA registered.

When

I asked why he coated every square inch of every surface in the attic (even

those that had not been water damaged) the remediator responded that he was

instructed to do so during training at the IICRC. He named the specific

instructors, and they are familiar persons within the IICRC. Their names

are not of critical importance in this inquiry.

Here

are my questions -- I'd appreciate your feedback.

1.

Has anyone else been instructed to use a coating in this way by the IICRC or by

others? If so, what thought process was used or justification

provided?

2.

Does anyone have any experience in using this coating over the Anabec

" Anashield " ? Could there be a chemical compatibility

concern? Could the " organosilane " (Anashield) inhibit or slow

curing of the PermaGuard (a " latex acrylic resin interior

sealer " )?

Replies

either on this list or privately (wab -at- michaelsengineering .com) are

welcome.

TIA.

Wane

<><><><><><><><><><><>

Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIH

Division

Manager, Indoor Air Quality

MICHAELS

ENGINEERING

" Real Professionals. Real Solutions. "

811 Monitor Street, Suite

100

PO Box

2377

La Crosse,

Wisconsin 54602

Phone

, ext. 484

Cell

Fax

mailto:wab@michaels

engineering. com

On the

web at: http://www.michaels engineering. com

" To

love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more

fun? "

-

Graham

NOTICE:

This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential information. Use and

further disclosure of the information by the recipient must be consistent with

applicable laws, regulations and agreements. If you received this e-mail in

error, please notify the sender; delete the e-mail; and do not use, disclose or

store the information it contains.

Everyone is raving

about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

Want to start your

own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

Need a quick answer? Get

one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo!

Answers.