Re: Re: Particle Counting for Mold

December 7, 2006

I am an AmIAQC C.I.E.C.. My insurance is thru Legends. Either the job site is clean and mold free after the work is done or it is not.

I take samples to make sure the job is done right. I cannot undertand why that is offensive to anyone. If the client wants to hire a third party to also test fine. But they rarely will if they have confidence in the remediator.

Rosen

Re: Particle Counting for Mold

and ,I can understand a remediator who takes presamples checked by an independent lab. I can understand a remediator who takes samples during remediation for internal (not reported to the customer) reasons like QA/QC.I can not understand a remediator who takes their own samples for post testing reported to a customer as proof of effectiveness for remediation. In fact, my insurance carrier will not cover that last scenario. The only reason they will let me do inspections and write a scope of work for my remediation projects is:1) I have a CMC certification from the AmIAQ 2) My reporting formats were reviewed by the insurance carriers experts 3) My contracts were reviewed by the insurance carriers experts 4) My SOPs were reviewed by the insurance carriers expertsI think there are not enough qualified people to do all the jobs for inspections. Everyone should

look at the conflict of interest documents in Virginia for asbestos and apply the same thing for mold and bacteria as far as remediation.I would like to know what insurance carrier will cover anyone for $5 million dollars to do their own post testing even if they use an independant lab. It is too easy to take meaningless samples. Carry a $2 million dollar insurance policy through Legends Environmental ( McFarland) from my AmIAQ membership. I have looked at other situations, . Please advise everyone with the name of the carrier.Regards,Greg WeathermanaerobioLogical Solutions Inc.Arlington VA 22202gwaerobioLogical (DOT) com************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ****> > At Aeorotech the detection limit for QPCR is not less than a minimum> of 100 spore equivalents per species. But you typically need quite a> bit more to get accurate numbers based on the results I have gotten> back from them. That's

why you need to run air samples for several> hours unless the airborne spore levels are very high. Best results> that I've had are from dust or bulk samples. > > > > Rosen> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > Do you Yahoo!?> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.> > http://new.mail. yahoo.com> >> > > > > > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. > > > QLab> 5 Drive> Cherry Hill , NJ 08003> > www.QLabUSA. com> > > > > > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo!

Answers. Try it now.> > > > > > Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. > > > > > > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.> > > > > > Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __>

December 8, 2006

:

How can you claim that a site is MOLD FREE? If you do, you are wrong!!!!

How do toy eliminate mold between the studs and the blocking, between the sole plate and the concrete, between the studs and the shear panel? And I am speaking of stick-framed assemblies. It may be easier to remove most mold in metal stud assemblies, but even these systems cannot be rendered MOLD FREE without total disassembly. If you are claiming MOLD FREE, you are making a claim that cannot be substantiated.

For what it is worth....

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

I am an AmIAQC C.I.E.C.. My insurance is thru Legends. Either the job site is clean and mold free after the work is done or it is not.

I take samples to make sure the job is done right. I cannot undertand why that is offensive to anyone. If the client wants to hire a third party to also test fine. But they rarely will if they have confidence in the remediator.

Rosen

Re: Particle Counting for Mold

and ,

I can understand a remediator who takes presamples checked by an

independent lab.

I can understand a remediator who takes samples during remediation

for internal (not reported to the customer) reasons like QA/QC.

I can not understand a remediator who takes their own samples for

post testing reported to a customer as proof of effectiveness for

remediation.

In fact, my insurance carrier will not cover that last scenario.

The only reason they will let me do inspections and write a scope of

work for my remediation projects is:

1) I have a CMC certification from the AmIAQ

2) My reporting formats were reviewed by the insurance carriers

experts

3) My contracts were reviewed by the insurance carriers experts

4) My SOPs were reviewed by the insurance carriers experts

I think there are not enough qualified people to do all the jobs for

inspections. Everyone should look at the conflict of interest

documents in Virginia for asbestos and apply the same thing for mold

and bacteria as far as remediation.

I would like to know what insurance carrier will cover anyone for $5

million dollars to do their own post testing even if they use an

independant lab. It is too easy to take meaningless samples. Carry

a $2 million dollar insurance policy through Legends Environmental

( McFarland) from my AmIAQ membership. I have looked at other

situations, . Please advise everyone with the name of the

carrier.

Regards,

Greg Weatherman

aerobioLogical Solutions Inc.

Arlington VA 22202

gwaerobioLogical (DOT) com <mailto:gw%40aerobioLogical.com>

************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ****

> > At Aeorotech the detection limit for QPCR is not less than a

minimum

> of 100 spore equivalents per species. But you typically need quite

a

> bit more to get accurate numbers based on the results I have gotten

> back from them. That's why you need to run air samples for several

> hours unless the airborne spore levels are very high. Best results

> that I've had are from dust or bulk samples.

> >

> > Rosen

> >

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> > Do you Yahoo!?

> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

> > http://new.mail. <http://new.mail./> yahoo.com

> >

>

> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it

now.

>

> QLab

> 5 Drive

> Cherry Hill , NJ 08003

>

> www.QLabUSA. com

>

> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it

now.

>

> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

>

> Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small

Business.

>

> Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call

rates.

>

> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

>

> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

>

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

>

December 8, 2006

It is all about doing the job right, for a fair price and providing accountability. Actually attorney's love us. We put together fair Xactimate quotes for them to submit to the insurance providers they are fighting with and a fixed bid on doing all the work. And then we get the job done on schedule for the quoted price.

You hardly everr know what the job entails until the walls are opened. Protocols written on the basis of a visual inspection and a few air samples are hardly ever right. So the remediation contractor bids the job based on what everyone knows is probably an unrealistic job description based on visual mold He goes in and starts to work and then has to jack up the price to complete the job because now he found hidden mold. At that point there is no competitive bidding and then the home owner and/or insurance provider gets ripped of. That is far from an ideal situation.

Rosen

Re: Particle Counting for Mold

, then CERTIFIED MOLD FREE CORP. is actually doing all 4 functions: inspection, remediation, PRV, and certifying the job to be "Mold Free". I'm surprized that you've not seen challenges to the certification aspect. Florida has such a high attorney/population ratio.Disinterested third party inspection, verification and certification adds accountability, credibility and a liability screen. For what its worth, ~Cheryl C Crane, CIEC

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December 8, 2006

Pre loss condition is the key. Mold growth free.

Rosen

Re: Particle Counting for Mold and ,I can understand a remediator who takes presamples checked by an independent lab. I can understand a remediator who takes samples during remediation for internal (not

reported to the customer) reasons like QA/QC.I can not understand a remediator who takes their own samples for post testing reported to a customer as proof of effectiveness for remediation. In fact, my insurance carrier will not cover that last scenario. The only reason they will let me do inspections and write a scope of work for my remediation projects is:1) I have a CMC certification from the AmIAQ 2) My reporting formats were reviewed by the insurance carriers experts 3) My contracts were reviewed by the insurance carriers experts 4) My SOPs were reviewed by the insurance carriers expertsI think there are not enough qualified people to do all the jobs for inspections. Everyone should look at the conflict of interest documents in Virginia for asbestos and apply the same thing for mold and bacteria as far as remediation.I would like to know what insurance carrier will cover

anyone for $5 million dollars to do their own post testing even if they use an independant lab. It is too easy to take meaningless samples. Carry a $2 million dollar insurance policy through Legends Environmental ( McFarland) from my AmIAQ membership. I have looked at other situations, . Please advise everyone with the name of the carrier.Regards,Greg WeathermanaerobioLogical Solutions Inc.Arlington VA 22202gwaerobioLogical (DOT) com <mailto:gw%40aerobio Logical.com> ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ****> > At Aeorotech the detection limit for QPCR is not less than a minimum> of 100 spore equivalents per species. But you typically need quite a> bit more to get accurate numbers based on the results I have gotten> back from them. That's why you need to run air samples for several> hours unless the airborne spore levels are very high. Best

results> that I've had are from dust or bulk samples. > > > > Rosen> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > Do you Yahoo!?> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.> > http://new.mail. <http://new.mail. /> yahoo.com> >> > > > > > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. > > > QLab> 5 Drive> Cherry Hill , NJ 08003> > www.QLabUSA. com> > > > > > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it

now.> > > > > > Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. > > > > > > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.> > > > > > Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __>

December 8, 2006

I give my clients the test results along with photographic documentation of the mold remediation process especially what the walls looked like before being closed up. Then I give them a certificate that I returned the place to pre-loss condition and in the process did not contaminated the premises. I am a licensed assessor in TX and I pretty much follow the TX requirements for post-remediation certificatation.

Do you provide such a written certificate? Is it backed by your insurance carrier?

Rosen

Re: Particle Counting for Mold

and ,I can understand a remediator who takes presamples checked by an independent lab. I can understand a remediator who takes samples during remediation for internal (not reported to the customer) reasons like QA/QC.I can not understand a remediator who takes their own samples for post testing reported to a customer as proof of effectiveness for remediation. In fact, my insurance carrier will not cover that last scenario. The only reason they will let me do inspections and write a scope of work for my remediation projects is:1) I have a CMC certification from the AmIAQ 2) My reporting formats were reviewed by the insurance carriers experts 3) My contracts were reviewed by the insurance carriers experts 4) My SOPs were reviewed by the insurance carriers expertsI think there are not enough qualified

people to do all the jobs for inspections. Everyone should look at the conflict of interest documents in Virginia for asbestos and apply the same thing for mold and bacteria as far as remediation.I would like to know what insurance carrier will cover anyone for $5 million dollars to do their own post testing even if they use an independant lab. It is too easy to take meaningless samples. Carry a $2 million dollar insurance policy through Legends Environmental ( McFarland) from my AmIAQ membership. I have looked at other situations, . Please advise everyone with the name of the carrier.Regards,Greg WeathermanaerobioLogical Solutions Inc.Arlington VA 22202gwaerobioLogical (DOT) com************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ****> > At Aeorotech the detection limit for QPCR is not less than a minimum> of 100 spore equivalents per species. But you typically need quite a> bit more to get accurate numbers

based on the results I have gotten> back from them. That's why you need to run air samples for several> hours unless the airborne spore levels are very high. Best results> that I've had are from dust or bulk samples. > > > > Rosen> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > Do you Yahoo!?> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.> > http://new.mail. yahoo.com> >> > > > > > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. > > > QLab> 5 Drive> Cherry Hill , NJ 08003> > www.QLabUSA. com> > > > >

> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.> > > > > > Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. > > > > > > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.> > > > > > Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > > > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __>

December 8, 2006

All,

I give my clients the test results along with

photographic documentation of the mold remediation process.

I have often wondered about giving the client

a photograph of

the finished product in environmental remediation projects. I always come back to the same issue. By giving a photograph, are we in fact

representing that the photograph shows the lack of contamination? If the contaminant is too small to see with

the naked eye, how could you possibly see it in a photograph? To me that always seemed like absurd proof,

so I never did it. (I do keep

photographs for my own records.)

Any body else thought about this?

Mark Doughty

December 8, 2006

Mark,

I totally agree with you.. Seeing the eye

can only see down to 50 microns and mold spores are at an average 5-10 microns,

how are the clients going to know if what they are seeing is cleaned?

Besides, why do we take air samples? Because we cant see them. Are

the pictures going to help see any better what we can’t see now? I

believe the picture can or may demonstrate that the area(s) were cleaned if

what was cleaned is now comparably different than prior to the cleaning event.

Notice I did not say is absent of microbial forms. It can still look clean yet

have microbial particulate still attached i.e. look at what we arte seeing

after dry ice blasting. It looks clean yet the counts can be out of this

world.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Mark Doughty

Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006

4:04 PM

To: iequality

Subject: RE: Re:

Particle Counting for Mold

All,

I give my clients

the test results along with photographic documentation of the mold remediation

process.

I have often wondered about giving the client a photograph

of the finished product in

environmental remediation projects. I always come back to the same

issue. By giving a photograph, are we in fact representing that the

photograph shows the lack of contamination? If the contaminant is too

small to see with the naked eye, how could you possibly see it in a

photograph? To me that always seemed like absurd proof, so I never did

it. (I do keep photographs for my own records.)

Any body else thought about this?

Mark Doughty

December 8, 2006

In TX, you are required by law to provide photographic documentation. I think it is good.

When you do source removal and you have a picture of lets say a moldy wall; then a picture of no wall; then a picture of a new unpainted wall... you have proof you did not just cover up the problem but removed the source.

If someone every wants to sue you and you have such photographic evidence that shows compliance with industry standards they will have a hard time.

Rosen

RE: Re: Particle Counting for Mold

All,

I give my clients the test results along with photographic documentation of the mold remediation process.

I have often wondered about giving the client a photograph of the finished product in environmental remediation projects. I always come back to the same issue. By giving a photograph, are we in fact representing that the photograph shows the lack of contamination? If the contaminant is too small to see with the naked eye, how could you possibly see it in a photograph? To me that always seemed like absurd proof, so I never did it. (I do keep photographs for my own records.)

Any body else thought about this?

Mark Doughty

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December 9, 2006

Pre loss condition is the key. Mold growth free.

Rosen

Re: Re: Particle Counting for Mold

:

How can you claim that a site is MOLD FREE? If you do, you are wrong!!!!

How about IEP-CERTIFIED CONDITION 1?

I have no idea what this would mean, but IICRC should like it.

ST

December 9, 2006

I can't believe you said ... "Neanderthal remediators". Now I understand why you consider remediators not capable of making any of their own decisions or analysis. Remediators are an inferior species compared to IEPs. They are sub-human. Wow. THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT INSIGHT!

Rosen

I Re: Particle Counting for Mold> > Bob/Ma> > A few additional thoughts on this subject. Sorry in advance to VENT.> > In our area there are several ramifications due to assessors doing their own testing in addition to pushing some of us into mold remediation work.> > 1.) The other assessors cannot compete on price and tend

to take too few samples to stay competitive. Here's a true story... I was called in to remedate a Real Estate transaction (house for sale) where an assessor found mold. He said to gut the bathroom. I said that there was no visible mold nor were there any samples taken in that bathroom to make me want to do any work there at all. I asked him why he concluded the bathroom needing gutting. He said that the seller would not pay for enough samples to test the bathroom, so to cover himself he recommended that the bathroom be gutted. I kid you not.> > 2.) The other issue is that the assessors (around here) that do their own lab work never provide raw counts. There is always 24 Stachy; 48 Curvularia; 96 Pen/Asp. But this is based on only 1, 2, and 4 spores. I think that is highly unethical. > > Rosen> ----- Original Message ----

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December 9, 2006

Bob/Ma.,

I think you lack a good sense of humor and are a lousy lurker.

It wasn't that long ago that I offered my opinion about the definition of Condition 1 in S520. It defines a concept, that there is such a thing as normal fungal ecology and that no environment is MOLD FREE (certified or not). It is not a working definition, meaning that it is useless in the field. Any definition of "a condition" that doesn't permit you to identify whether that condition exists or not is an inadequate definition.

I tried to offer this comment as a public reviewer of the document but when I followed the instructions to comment (e-mail to Larry ), I never received the necessary forms, or anything -- after two attempts. Not cool. Not ANSI.

As far as RMI (pay attention to Henry, Bob), I don't consider the microbial content of the dust from a vacuum cleaner bag to be reliably representative of anything.

You asked,

Steve Temes

Steve,

I believe the â€œCondition 1â€ (according to the S520) means a normal ecology.

What is a normal ecology and under what conditions is a normal ecology? I do not know b/c everything is relative and/or subjective. I think we would need some comparisons as like what the EPA ERMI rating is attempting to establish. What do you think?

Bob/Ma.

How about IEP-CERTIFIED CONDITION 1?

I have no idea what this would mean, but IICRC should like it.

ST

December 9, 2006

Steve,

I believe the “Condition 1” (according

to the S520) means a normal ecology. What is a normal ecology and under

what conditions is a normal ecology? I do not know b/c everything is relative

and/or subjective. I think we would need some comparisons as like what the EPA ERMI

rating is attempting to establish. What do you think?

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of AirwaysEnv@...

Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006

10:43 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: Particle

Counting for Mold

In a message dated 12/8/2006 2:26:07 PM

Eastern Standard Time, garyrosen72652 writes:

Pre loss condition is the key. Mold growth free.

Rosen

Re: Re: Particle Counting for Mold

:

How can you claim that a site is MOLD FREE? If you do, you are wrong!!!!

How about IEP-CERTIFIED CONDITION 1?

I have no idea what this would mean, but IICRC should like it.

ST

December 9, 2006

Mold growth free is what we claim. I am sure that a client will be more confident hearing Mold Growth Free than IEP CERTIFIED CONDITION 1.

Rosen

Re: Re: Particle Counting for Mold:How can you claim that a site is MOLD FREE? If you do, you are wrong!!!!How about IEP-CERTIFIED CONDITION 1?I have no idea what this would mean, but IICRC should like it.ST

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

December 9, 2006

Bob/Ma.

You bring up a good point. What is normal? As defined by S520 this means no significant fungal growth and normal "amounts" of settled spores.

Normal is typically defined as having a species distribution similar to the outdoor i.e. no elevation of water damage indicators.

However what about homes that are dirty and have a lot of mold spores in the dirt and dust. These environments may be unhealthful to sensitive individuals.

What about homes with contaminated AC ducts?

What about homes that only have mold growth problems in humid summer months?

What about homes contaminated with mold micro-fragments due to remediation work that used blasting techniques. Spores counts low but toxin containing fragments high.

And lastly, some believe that indoor mold growth and resultant viable spores tend to cause greater illness in sensitive people than do similar amounts of (older) outdoor spores. If that is the case, and I believe that this is true, then NORMAL "amounts" according to S520 may be unhealthful to sensitive individuals.

Rosen

Re: Re: Particle Counting for Mold

:How can you claim that a site is MOLD FREE? If you do, you are wrong!!!!How about IEP-CERTIFIED CONDITION 1?I have no idea what this would mean, but IICRC should like it.ST

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

December 9, 2006

,

I must totally disagree. The term “Mold

Growth Free” is or could easily be misunderstood. I would not use the

term at all. Simply bring in a third party company and get out of the way. Let

the third part clear the project. Can you see where the concerns are now? At

least a “Condition 1” is more clear than mold growth free. It

can be mold growth free and yet still have 10 magnitudes of elevations of spore

counts. How about what Carl has proposed earlier. The dry ice blasting

denatured the mold and spores although the remaining parts have potential for

being an allergenic matter. OK, your mold growth free but is it clean and have

you accomplished what you set out to do (alleviate the concerns of the client).

Furthermore do they know what they are expecting you to achieve? Boy you

open up a huge liability here!

IMHO,

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006

11:33 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re:

Particle Counting for Mold

Mold growth free is what we claim. I am sure that

a client will be more confident hearing Mold Growth Free than IEP

CERTIFIED CONDITION 1.

Rosen

Re: Re: Particle Counting for Mold

:

How can you claim that a site is MOLD FREE? If you do, you are wrong!!!!

How

about IEP-CERTIFIED CONDITION 1?

I have no idea what this would mean, but IICRC should like it.

ST

Everyone is raving about the

all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

December 9, 2006

,

You make good points and based on your

points:

What about homes with contaminated AC

ducts?

What about homes that only have mold growth

problems in humid summer months?

What about homes contaminated with mold

micro-fragments due to remediation work that used blasting techniques.

Spores counts low but toxin containing fragments high.

What is normal and what standard are you (as a professional) going to

use and as well make clear to your client that you did the remediation (in a

fiduciary position) to their best interest?

I would expect none of these points to be of issue due to your (at the

time) present knowledge these other areas are contributing factors. Are you

going to remediate one aspect of the contamination only to know shortly (very) due

to the remaining contributors not being addressed what you have remediated will

become of no affect within possible days? Why bother taking the client’s money?

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006

12:11 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re:

Particle Counting for Mold

Bob/Ma.

You bring up a good point. What is normal? As defined by

S520 this means no significant fungal growth and normal " amounts " of

settled spores.

Normal

is typically defined as having a species distribution similar to the outdoor

i.e. no elevation of water damage indicators.

However what about homes that are dirty and have a lot of mold spores

in the dirt and dust. These environments may be unhealthful to sensitive

individuals.

What about homes with contaminated AC ducts?

What about homes that only have mold growth problems in humid summer

months?

What about homes contaminated with mold micro-fragments due to

remediation work that used blasting techniques. Spores counts low but

toxin containing fragments high.

And lastly, some believe that indoor

mold growth and resultant viable spores tend to cause greater illness in

sensitive people than do similar amounts of (older) outdoor spores. If

that is the case, and I believe that this is true, then NORMAL

" amounts " according to S520 may be unhealthful to sensitive

individuals.

Rosen

Re: Re: Particle Counting for Mold

:

How can you claim that a site is MOLD FREE? If you do, you are wrong!!!!

How about

IEP-CERTIFIED CONDITION 1?

I have no idea what this would mean, but IICRC should like it.

ST

Everyone is raving about the

all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

December 9, 2006

Bob,

Good questions. Of course there are no simple answers as things vary from job to job; client to client; any number of variables. There will also be many ways to approaches to each problem depending on one's training, background ... you name it.

Since I am a building contractor that does remediation and testing I tend to look at things from the following perspectives:

Open walls and remove the source contaminants.

Pull back carpets and look for stained carpet tack.

Enter attics to look for problems.

Cut open AC supply and return air plenums and visually inspect for contamination.

Look for water leaks knowing that whereever there are leaks you will have mold independent of the season.

If they are sick and the house is dirty and there is no money to properly clean I don't take the job.

If the job is a real estate transaction ... then I remediate the specific problem areas and if the house is filthy I don't care. I only certify that that work that I performed took care of the problem. Not that the house is clear.

I have an interesting job coming up this week. Mold Testing. I got a referral from Dr. Schaller regarding a patient of his that has mold sensitivity. Whenever he enters his office he gets sick in 10 minutes. He's had the place tested for mold and the results are negative. But as he gets sick we know there is a problem. My testing protocol will be:

1.) Open the AC ducts and check for contamination problems. I believe that you get many mold micro-fragments from dead mold in AC ducts that might cause health problems but do not show up on spore counts.

2.) Take carpet dust samples and send it out for QPCR analysis. This will see fragments and spores and a history of the problem. Many times air sampling is done at face height level but it should always be done at the floor level on any susptect carpet with normal activity such as walking, sitting etc. Spores settle. Taking air samples 6 feet off the ground in a still room is cheating (to me it is).

3.) I have purchased some of QLABs FV-01 viable cartridges and will check to see if there are more viable spores inside than out. I believe that viable (new growth) inside spores have a higher potential to make someone sick than older outside spores. So total spore count may miss something. I'll take a bunch of total spore counts as well.

This testing costs $$ and is not your typical testing for mold. But it is a real life example that may serve to help answer your questions.

Rosen

Re: Re: Particle Counting for Mold

:How can you claim that a site is MOLD FREE? If you do, you are wrong!!!!How about IEP-CERTIFIED CONDITION 1?I have no idea what this would mean, but IICRC should like it.ST

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Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

December 9, 2006

Bob/Ma.

Actually Mold Growth Free is a very suitable choice of words. So long as you have stopped the moisture you are mold growth free.

Not all jobs have funds for you to clean an entire house of setlled spores. That is very expensive. If someone is not sick from mold why would they pay to have their whole house cleaned. Once the mold source is gone and you have done a careful job cleaning the remediation area, they can open some windows and the house will be cleaner than before the remediation.

I do believe that blasting creates micro-particles. I never blast. I use so called Wet Techniques.

Rosen

Re: Re: Particle Counting for Mold

:How can you claim that a site is MOLD FREE? If you do, you are wrong!!!!How about IEP-CERTIFIED CONDITION 1?I have no idea what this would mean, but IICRC should like it.ST

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on

Yahoo! Answers.

December 9, 2006

Steve,

Any

definition of " a condition " that doesn't permit you to identify

whether that condition exists or not is an inadequate definition.

I believe I said

that. I stated: What is a normal ecology and under what conditions is a

normal ecology? I do not know b/c everything is relative and/or subjective. I

should have also mentioned in flux as well.

I also do not feel we can

go forth without at least a reasonable platform to work from. Even if it’s

not exact lets try to get a reasonable approximation. I would offer that a

normal ecology is a controlled indoor environment or building (that has not

been subjected to water damage and/or elevated RH condition(s)) and is settled within

a reasonable proximity of the project). This environment is also one that may be

compared against that has been under such conditions which have not become conducive

to or allowed to promoted fungal growth.

I don't consider the microbial content of the dust from a vacuum cleaner bag to

be reliably representative of anything.

I

agree and have argued this position as well; way too many variables and

unscientific.

I hope this came out right I am way past my bed time.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of AirwaysEnv@...

Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006

2:00 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re:

Particle Counting for Mold

Bob/Ma.,

I think you lack a good sense of humor and are a lousy lurker.

It wasn't that long ago that I offered my opinion about the definition of

Condition 1 in S520. It defines a concept, that there is such a thing as

normal fungal ecology and that no environment is MOLD FREE (certified or

not). It is not a working definition, meaning that it is useless in the

field. Any definition of " a condition " that doesn't permit you

to identify whether that condition exists or not is an inadequate definition.

I tried to offer this comment as a public reviewer of the document but when I

followed the instructions to comment (e-mail to Larry ), I never received

the necessary forms, or anything -- after two attempts. Not cool.

Not ANSI.

As far as RMI (pay attention to Henry, Bob), I don't consider the microbial

content of the dust from a vacuum cleaner bag to be reliably representative of

anything.

You asked,

Steve Temes

In a message dated 12/9/2006 11:45:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,

BobEnvironmentalAirTechs writes:

Steve,

I believe the “Condition 1”

(according to the S520) means a normal ecology.

What is a normal ecology

and under what conditions is a normal ecology? I do not know b/c everything is

relative and/or subjective. I think we would need some comparisons as like what

the EPA ERMI rating is attempting to establish. What do you think?

Bob/Ma.

How about

IEP-CERTIFIED CONDITION 1?

I have no idea what this would mean, but IICRC should like it.

ST

December 9, 2006

Steve,

Bob s BobB@... has just provided us some very interesting and useful perspective on Normal. Normal depends on many factors. In Canada where there are basements and very tight buildings Normal means there is some indoor mold growth. Normal in Florida in an air conditioned house is no mold growth. But in an older non-air conditioned house Normal will be mold growth.

The S520 leaves the definition to the professionals involved in the remediation which is as it should be. Unfortunately Normal in schools throughout the country is in many cases unhealthful. I don't think that is what they mean by Normal.

Rosen

Re: Re: Particle Counting for Mold

Bob/Ma.,I think you lack a good sense of humor and are a lousy lurker.It wasn't that long ago that I offered my opinion about the definition of Condition 1 in S520. It defines a concept, that there is such a thing as normal fungal ecology and that no environment is MOLD FREE (certified or not). It is not a working definition, meaning that it is useless in the field. Any definition of "a condition" that doesn't permit you to identify whether that condition exists or not is an inadequate definition.I tried to offer this comment as a public reviewer of the document but when I followed the instructions to comment (e-mail to Larry ), I never received the necessary forms, or anything -- after two attempts. Not cool. Not ANSI.As far as RMI (pay attention to Henry, Bob), I don't consider the microbial content of the dust from

a vacuum cleaner bag to be reliably representative of anything.You asked,Steve TemesIn a message dated 12/9/2006 11:45:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bob@EnvironmentalAi rTechs.com writes:

Steve, I believe the “Condition 1” (according to the S520) means a normal ecology.

What is a normal ecology and under what conditions is a normal ecology? I do not know b/c everything is relative and/or subjective. I think we would need some comparisons as like what the EPA ERMI rating is attempting to establish. What do you think?Bob/Ma.How about IEP-CERTIFIED CONDITION 1?I have no idea what this would mean, but IICRC should like it.ST

__________________________________________________

December 10, 2006

“But as he gets sick we know there is a problem.”

Unless of course it is something other than mold which is making this

man ill, in which case you will have wasted his money by conducting a wild

goose chase. I suggest you focus less energy on taking people’s

money for awhile, and more energy on looking at the bigger picture of indoor

air/environmental quality. Will you be asking this man any questions and

investigating the history of the building? If not, this is even worse

than I thought…

-Stacey Champion

PS- What do you tell those sick clients with the filthy houses who don’t

have enough money to pay you? How can you possibly “certify”

anything that has to do with biological contaminants??? I’d love to

see your disclaimer.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006

1:01 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re:

Particle Counting for Mold

Bob,

Good questions. Of course there are no simple answers as things

vary from job to job; client to client; any number of variables. There will

also be many ways to approaches to each problem depending on one's

training, background ... you name it.

Since I am a building contractor that does remediation and testing I

tend to look at things from the following perspectives:

Open walls and remove the source

contaminants.

Pull back carpets and look for stained carpet

tack.

Enter attics to look for problems.

Cut open AC supply and return air plenums and

visually inspect for contamination.

Look for water leaks knowing that whereever there

are leaks you will have mold independent of the season.

If they are sick and the house is dirty and there

is no money to properly clean I don't take the job.

If the job is a real estate transaction ... then

I remediate the specific problem areas and if the house is filthy I don't

care. I only certify that that work that I performed took care of the

problem. Not that the house is clear.

I have an interesting job coming up this week. Mold

Testing. I got a referral from Dr. Schaller regarding a patient of

his that has mold sensitivity. Whenever he enters his office he gets sick in 10

minutes. He's had the place tested for mold and the results are

negative. But as he gets sick we know there is a problem. My

testing protocol will be:

1.) Open the AC ducts and check for contamination problems.

I believe that you get many mold micro-fragments from dead mold in AC

ducts that might cause health problems but do not show up on spore counts.

2.) Take carpet dust samples and send it out for QPCR

analysis. This will see fragments and spores and a history of the

problem. Many times air sampling is done at face height level but it

should always be done at the floor level on any susptect carpet with normal

activity such as walking, sitting etc. Spores settle. Taking air samples

6 feet off the ground in a still room is cheating (to me it is).

3.) I have purchased some of QLABs FV-01 viable cartridges and

will check to see if there are more viable spores inside than out. I

believe that viable (new growth) inside spores have a higher potential to make

someone sick than older outside spores. So total spore count may miss something.

I'll take a bunch of total spore counts as well.

This testing costs $$ and is not your typical testing for mold.

But it is a real life example that may serve to help answer your questions.

Rosen

..

December 10, 2006

Joe goes home and gets sick after 10 minutes.

Joe leaves home and gets better.

This happens 50x.

None of this happened before Joe's home had water damage.

Joe knows exactly where the water damage was.

I understand that you would want to do extensive testing because that somehow will save the guy money.