Re: Exposure to Alternaria alternata in US homes is

[Guest guest]

This is a perfect example as to why the average consumer

should never perform their own “mold sampling.” Not to

mention the fact that these “mold kits” being sold often times

already contain mold at the get go. Put a Petri dish out in any house and

things will grow. I do it with my son on a regular basis when I have

media that is soon to expire – just for kicks.

It is a waste of time, energy and money in my opinion –

and had those three things been spent on maintaining and fixing the problems in

the first place, you wouldn’t have to be concerned about mold…

Sorry to sound so harsh, but for a very long time you have

been posting your home issues to this group with your main concern always being

mold. Maybe it’s time to actually hire a qualified and competent person

with construction/building science knowledge to address your homes real problems,

then FIX them. Simply “closing off a room” is not going to

make the problem go away.

Stacey Champion

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of barb1283

Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006

9:43 PM

To: iequality

Subject: SV: Re:

Exposure to Alternaria alternata in US homes is

Dont know but I would be happy and interested to find

out.

Most recent test was done with plates from Environmental Health Center

of Dallas found one Alternaria only in master bedroom along with 10

aspergillus flavus and 2 mucor sp. This was based on a *half hour*

exposure so 13 spores in 1/2 hour they said was high, as that would

translate into 26 an hour.

Three years prior test (Sept 2003)plate by, sorry to bring up a sore

point, Pro Lab, found 3 alternaria, 3 cladosporum, 1 penicillium (Pro

Lab said results were within normal limits). Pro Lab plate was

exposured for one hour so 8 spores in one hour.

Dallas plates

were done purposely by me on hot humid day in August of

this year; and Pro Lab plates were done in September of 2003. I did

not note weather, etc.

I also had professional testing done after the Pro Lab plates by

Kilbane Environmental because room smelled moldy and there had been

leak around chimney above room. Their tests were done in March 2005

with Air-O-Cell. They counted 9 aspergillus spores and 1 cladosporus

spores as a " raw count " , not an area count, so 10 total spores

caught. Their interpretation was air quality was good. However it

should be noted that it was dead of winter (March) and humidity in

house was 28% as I was not humidifying. However they recommended

since I was not feeling well and detected musty odor in room, that

wall around chimney be opened in this room and checked for mold, but

this has not been done yet, so can't report what was conclusion. I

keep room shut. Chimney is in bad condition and moldy air could

actually be coming down from attic through crack is wall around

chimney there. Trying to figure this out now. Chimney leak has been

fixed long ago.

I looked through data and nowhere do I see a description of medium

they use, however I can know by Wednesday.

>

> Barb,

>

> Can you also identify the media used? Was it TSA or MEA? or other.

>

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

The problems I can see here are: (1) Collection efficiencies of Asp/Pen spores for settling plates are low due to their sizes. Unfortunately, they are usually the most common/important airborne indicators of indoor mold growth. (2) "Moldy" and "good quality" air don't go together. Spore count of 75 L of air collected in 5 min window is only a screening. Be careful when saying that the air quality is good, in fact, the results only indicates that an elevation of mold spores in the air at the time collected was "not found". Field observations are much more important. (3) Spore traps don't trap 100% of spores. When there seems to be a problem and spore count results don't agree, use Andersen impactor, filtration-type spore traps (Bi-Air, QTrap-V, etc), or liquid impaction devices (Omni 3000, BioSampler), especially with extreme temperature or low humidity air. (4) You don't need to open the wall to check for mold. Wall cavity air sampling is sufficient most of the time. Although it's been found that sample taken 6 - 12 inches away from the source may not indicate that. However, the problem might have been in the sampling protocol. Most of the samples we received are overloaded with dry wall dust. After the first liter of air overload the gel with dry wall dust, the spores in the rest of the 29 liters are going to have a hard time being captured. In Nashville, I presented a "MoldSense Wall Cavity Air Sampling Protocol" in one of my presentations. The procedure is in the program book. Your lab will totally love you if you use that. It's easy to read and you get good results. Just like citing a standard protocol you use, properly refering any procedures you folllow is recommended. Wei Tang QLab Stacey Champion

wrote: This is a perfect example as to why the average consumer should never perform their own “mold sampling.” Not to mention the fact that these “mold kits” being sold often times already contain mold at the get go. Put a Petri dish out in any house and things will grow. I do it with my son on a regular basis when I have media that is soon to

expire – just for kicks. It is a waste of time, energy and money in my opinion – and had those three things been spent on maintaining and fixing the problems in the first place, you wouldn’t have to be concerned about mold… Sorry to sound so harsh, but for a very long time you have been posting your home issues to this group with your main concern always being mold. Maybe it’s time to actually hire a qualified and competent person with

construction/building science knowledge to address your homes real problems, then FIX them. Simply “closing off a room” is not going to make the problem go away. Stacey Champion From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of barb1283Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 9:43 PMTo: iequality Subject: SV: Re: Exposure to Alternaria alternata in US homes is Dont know but I would be happy and interested to find out. Most recent test was done with plates from Environmental Health Center of Dallas found one Alternaria only in master bedroom along with 10 aspergillus flavus and 2 mucor sp. This was based on a *half hour* exposure so 13 spores in 1/2 hour they said was high, as that would translate into 26 an hour. Three years prior test (Sept 2003)plate by, sorry to bring up a sore point, Pro Lab, found 3 alternaria, 3 cladosporum, 1 penicillium (Pro Lab said results were within normal limits). Pro Lab plate was exposured for one hour so 8 spores in one hour. Dallas plates were done purposely by me on hot humid day in August of this year; and Pro Lab plates were done in September of 2003. I

did not note weather, etc. I also had professional testing done after the Pro Lab plates by Kilbane Environmental because room smelled moldy and there had been leak around chimney above room. Their tests were done in March 2005 with Air-O-Cell. They counted 9 aspergillus spores and 1 cladosporus spores as a "raw count", not an area count, so 10 total spores caught. Their interpretation was air quality was good. However it should be noted that it was dead of winter (March) and humidity in house was 28% as I was not humidifying. However they recommended since I was not feeling well and detected musty odor in room, that wall around chimney be opened in this room and checked for mold, but this has not been done yet, so can't report what was conclusion. I keep room shut. Chimney is in bad condition and moldy air could actually be coming down from attic through crack is wall around chimney there. Trying to figure

this out now. Chimney leak has been fixed long ago. I looked through data and nowhere do I see a description of medium they use, however I can know by Wednesday. >> Barb,> > Can you also identify the media used? Was it TSA or MEA? or other.> > > Bob> Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab Director QLab5

DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLABusa.com

[Guest guest]

Wei,

Any chance you could post your suggested wall cavity air sampling protocol here for those of use who could not attend the conference and your presentation?

Thanks!

Stojanik

RE: Re: Exposure to Alternaria alternata in US homes is

The problems I can see here are:

(1) Collection efficiencies of Asp/Pen spores for settling plates are low due to their sizes. Unfortunately, they are usually the most common/important airborne indicators of indoor mold growth.

(2) "Moldy" and "good quality" air don't go together. Spore count of 75 L of air collected in 5 min window is only a screening. Be careful when saying that the air quality is good, in fact, the results only indicates that an elevation of mold spores in the air at the time collected was "not found". Field observations are much more important.

(3) Spore traps don't trap 100% of spores. When there seems to be a problem and spore count results don't agree, use Andersen impactor, filtration-type spore traps (Bi-Air, QTrap-V, etc), or liquid impaction devices (Omni 3000, BioSampler), especially with extreme temperature or low humidity air.

/ (4) You don't need to open the wall to check for mold. Wall cavity air sampling is sufficient most of the time. Although it's been found that sample taken 6 - 12 inches away from the source may not indicate that. However, the problem might have been in the sampling protocol. Most of the samples we received are overloaded with dry wall dust. After the first liter of air overload the gel with dry wall dust, the spores in the rest of the 29 liters are going to have a hard time being captured. In Nashville, I presented a "MoldSense Wall Cavity Air Sampling Protocol" in one of my presentations. The procedure is in the program book. Your lab will totally love you if you use that. It's easy to read and you get good results. Just like citing a standard protocol you use, properly refering any procedures you folllow is recommended.

Wei Tang

QLab

Stacey Champion <schampioncommspeed (DOT) net> wrote:

This is a perfect example as to why the average consumer should never perform their own “mold sampling.” Not to mention the fact that these “mold kits” being sold often times already contain mold at the get go. Put a Petri dish out in any house and things will grow. I do it with my son on a regular basis when I have media that is soon to expire – just for kicks.

It is a waste of time, energy and money in my opinion – and had those three things been spent on maintaining and fixing the problems in the first place, you wouldn’t have to be concerned about mold…

Sorry to sound so harsh, but for a very long time you have been posting your home issues to this group with your main concern always being mold. Maybe it’s time to actually hire a qualified and competent person with construction/building science knowledge to address your homes real problems, then FIX them. Simply “closing off a room” is not going to make the problem go away.

Stacey Champion

Dont know but I would be happy and interested to find out. Most recent test was done with plates from Environmental Health Center of Dallas found one Alternaria only in master bedroom along with 10 aspergillus flavus and 2 mucor sp. This was based on a *half hour* exposure so 13 spores in 1/2 hour they said was high, as that would translate into 26 an hour. Three years prior test (Sept 2003)plate by, sorry to bring up a sore point, Pro Lab, found 3 alternaria, 3 cladosporum, 1 penicillium (Pro Lab said results were within normal limits). Pro Lab plate was exposured for one hour so 8 spores in one hour. Dallas plates were done purposely by me on hot humid day in August of this year; and Pro Lab plates were done in September of 2003. I did not note weather, etc. I also had professional testing done after the Pro Lab plates by Kilbane Environmental because room smelled moldy and there had been leak around chimney above room. Their tests were done in March 2005 with Air-O-Cell. They counted 9 aspergillus spores and 1 cladosporus spores as a "raw count", not an area count, so 10 total spores caught. Their interpretation was air quality was good. However it should be noted that it was dead of winter (March) and humidity in house was 28% as I was not humidifying. However they recommended since I was not feeling well and detected musty odor in room, that wall around chimney be opened in this room and checked for mold, but this has not been done yet, so can't report what was conclusion. I keep room shut. Chimney is in bad condition and moldy air could actually be coming down from attic through crack is wall around chimney there. Trying to figure this out now. Chimney leak has been fixed long ago. I looked through data and nowhere do I see a description of medium they use, however I can know by Wednesday. >> Barb,> > Can you also identify the media used? Was it TSA or MEA? or other.> > > Bob>

Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab Director

QLab5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLABusa.com

[Guest guest]

I only posted this in response to question about finding viable

alternaria spores in homes. That was someone else's topic.

I am not asking for help of any kind having to do with these tests.

As for other things mentioned.

I don't know what is wrong with only having water damage problems.

I've paid for professional testing of house for mold, to one of your

collegues, and professional testing for lead.

I don't just talk about my problems without fixing them. I put a

new foundation wall under one side of this house five years ago to

replace water damaged cinder block wall and had other side of house

foundation dug out to footer, repaired and patched the year after

that. Basement problems are done properly and have held and there

is no mold or water problems in foundation anymore so I don't just

talk about problems, I also fix them.

This summer there were signs of additional problems. Air testing

was done and I just got results back last August showing problem in

attic. That is only two months ago. I'm not talking about the

same problem over and over again and not doing anything about it.

I do some testing myself because I find it interesting and I'm smart

enough to do it and not lazy, so I do things for myself that I can.

Even though I do some testing myself, before I spend alot of money

on remediation, I have results checked by someone else and I have

work done by professionals. I certainly didn't put new foundation

under myself or have a handyman do it.

I closed off the room until I can fix it. It's not been determined

yet where odor is coming from even though I had a professional

testor out here doing tests he recommended and couldn't find

anything wrong with room. Person was from professional organization

many people here are from, so I closed off room since it is not

known yet what is wrong. If I knew where odor was coming from or if

professional I hired had found problem, I would have fixed it rather

than shutting room up.

Regarding mold kits. I am not an average consumer but a pretty

smart one, and also very hard working one. I prepare kits several

days in advance in order to give any mold that may be contained in

kit a chance to grow first. I have done many mold test with kits

and very rarely does mold grow before test, once in the last three

years and I received one kit with mold already visible which I threw

away and they replaced. I know it's cheap and I am not trying to

tout them as the best. I've used different labs. It just so

happens on Alternaria topic brought up here, I had a Pro Lab test

result that was topical to subject. When I use Pro Lab it is

because they are inexpensive and convenient to pick up. I usually

don't send them off to be analyize any more since people here say

they are so bad. I don't know but use them now just to get an idea

of how moldy conditions are some place. If they are very moldy and

it may mean work needs to be done, I get tests done from another

source. My post was not about promoting Pro Lab or putting them

down either, just responding to someone else's post about finding

alternaria in home.

As for if you put a dish out something will grow. That is true also

of other tests for mold. Vacuum air up in an Air-O-Cell and you

will get mold also. Mold is everywhere. I know that too.

As far as if I had put money into house in first place I would not

have these problems, you are saying my problem is due to neglect

since I'm unwilling to spend money and do things correctly. House

belonged to elderly relative that passed away 5 years ago at age 100

and she neglected house for about 15 years before she passed away

and I am trying to save house but there is alot of work. I'm not

lazy or cheap and neither was she.

Sorry I have irritated you. I really don't think I post often here

at all but since August I have asked some questions.

In iequality , " Stacey Champion "

wrote:

>

> This is a perfect example as to why the average consumer should

never

> perform their own " mold sampling. " Not to mention the fact that

these " mold

> kits " being sold often times already contain mold at the get go.

Put a

> Petri dish out in any house and things will grow. >

>

> It is a waste of time, energy and money in my opinion - and had

those three

> things been spent on maintaining and fixing the problems in the

first place,

> you wouldn't have to be concerned about mold.

> Sorry to sound so harsh, but for a very long time you have been

posting your

> home issues to this group with your main concern always being

mold. Maybe

> it's time to actually hire a qualified and competent person with

> construction/building science knowledge to address your homes real

problems,

> then FIX them. Simply " closing off a room " is not going to make

the problem

> go away.

> >

> Stacey Champion

>

[Guest guest]

Steve,

The fresh air intake is too low in house. It goes out the

basement. I have to get an engineer or someone to somehow get it to

take air from higher up. That is on my list to do. I did not have

backflow preventer. That was the exact problem, plus installed too

low in house, so I shut fresh air intake off for summer.

That helped tremendously and I stopped feeling sick after I shut off

completely but air tests in the house done afterward showed high

mucor, high aspergillus and high *alternaria* (which is why I

responded to post)

Energy Star consultant said houses built in 1930's like mine have

air that mixes well from attic to basement so attic has to undergo a

process of sealing from house. I will have the energy star

consultant to do that. That was recommended to me by someone here

and I have that lined up. Afterward, I'm putting new insulation

down since it is very, very old and looks dirty to me.

Everything is being held up by not knowing what to do about chimney

that is damaged and air tests show there might be mold problem there

but I don't know if tests are actually reflecting attic air that is

in chimney or if they are reflective of status of chimney since

chimney bricks are cracked where chimney goes through attic.

Tests done in fireplace opening down on first floor were high in

mucor and also alternaria. That is where alternaria was high, in

fireplace opening. There was leak in chimney area 3 years ago. I

heard rain coming down into chimney and repaired but no telling how

long that was going on. Sound of rain inside of it was very

faint.

I've already posted questions about chimney. Didn't mean to bring

it up again but this is where I am stuck.

Bedroom that chimney goes through has a very sour smell. There is

crack in plaster around chimney in that bedroom area, so odor could

be from attic or from chimney OR from insulation if ruined there.

Bricks in chimney area that go through attic look to be

disintegrated in areas as far as I can see from a distance. I could

hire chimney person but if chimney person worked on chimney and knew

nothing about containment then contaminates could be spread.

I think I have to address chimney problem first and then attic

sealing off and then new insulation, in that order. That's what I'm

thinking.

I just don't know how to get all this going. Who to hire? Chimney

person or remediator? I would imagine a remediator would come in

and take down plaster around chimney and look at wall and also

chimney condition there but does a remediator KNOW if chimney needs

to be rebuilt. That is where I am stuck. People have their

expertise and there is overlaping knowledge needed.

>

> You are concerned about the air quality in your attic (which isn't

good in

> any attic). There should be no communication between the attic

and the occupied

> space. The ceiling plane should be intact but very often isn't.

> Did you understand the issue of an outside air intake causing air

to " pour "

> out of the house and suck in make-up air from the attic when air

conditioning

> in the automatic (T-stat setting) mode? Is there a good backflow

preventer on

> your intake? Is the envelope sealed? Something is wrong and it's

much more

> than mold in your attic.

>

> Steve Temes

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dr Tang,

Thanks for your information on MoldSense. I will look it over and see

if I can use this method.

Here is link I found for info on MoldSense:

<http://www.qlabusa.com/moldsense_reports.html>

>

> The problems I can see here are:

> (1) Collection efficiencies of Asp/Pen spores for settling plates

are low due to their sizes. Unfortunately, they are usually the most

common/important airborne indicators of indoor mold growth.

[Guest guest]

Energy Star consultant said houses built in 1930's like mine have

air that mixes well from attic to basement so attic has to undergo a

process of sealing from house.

Sounds like "balloon wall framing" construction. Suggest sealing wall cavities between studs above sill plate in basement by packing tightly with insulation and finishing seal with expandable foam. These cavities are also a fire race. You sucked a lot of air down from your attic because the outside air intake leaked out cold air. The old organic dust and glass fibers are likely to be causing as many problems as the mold.

Steve Temes

[Guest guest]

Dr Tang,

Thanks for the information on the MoldSense. I was planning on

opening up wall to see condition of chimney there. Except now I

realize if I remove plaster, there will still be lathe behind it and

I would have to remove that too to see chimney. If chimney is okay,

I will have to probably put drywall around it since the lathe and

plaster would be difficult to put back so it would probably be a bad

trade off just to look at chimney to change from lathe and plaster

wall around chimney to drywall, so I will take your suggestion and

go about it differently.

> >

> > Barb,

> >

> > Can you also identify the media used? Was it TSA or MEA? or

other.

> >

> >

> > Bob

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Wei Tang, Ph.D.

> Lab Director

>

> QLab

> 5 Drive

> Cherry Hill, NJ 08003

>

> www.QLABusa.com

>

[Guest guest]

Maybe it's time to hire professionals for your situation. Ask them to take Andensen samples. Wei Tang QLab barb1283 wrote: Dr Tang,Thanks for the information on the MoldSense. I was planning on opening up wall to see condition of chimney there. Except now I realize if I remove plaster, there will still be lathe behind it and I would have to remove that too to see chimney. If chimney is okay, I will have to probably put drywall around it

since the lathe and plaster would be difficult to put back so it would probably be a bad trade off just to look at chimney to change from lathe and plaster wall around chimney to drywall, so I will take your suggestion and go about it differently. > >> > Barb,> > > > Can you also identify the media used? Was it TSA or MEA? or other.> > > > > > Bob> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Wei Tang, Ph.D.> Lab Director> > QLab> 5 Drive> Cherry Hill, NJ 08003> > www.QLABusa.com> Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab Director QLab5 DriveCherry

Hill, NJ 08003www.QLABusa.com

[Guest guest]

It looks like clumps of grey

cotton. Someone thinks rock wool. It has black sooty dust on top of

it.

Blown-in rock wool or mineral wool probably. You could have it tested by an asbestos lab. Anyway, the fibers are respiratory and mucous membrane irritants. The dark dust on the insulation will contain plenty of nasty stuff you don't want to be breathing. Stop the moisture causing the "sour" odor (could be from casein-based paint or horse hair plaster) and further microbial growth or damage to building materials. Stop the entry of particulate contaminants from the attic. Clean up the particles that are now in your living environment. I'm not a fan of blown-in insulation in any form. You may want to have the old insulation vacuumed out professionally and get a clean start on the attic rather than bury 75 yrs worth of accumulated funk under new insulation depending on your requirement for a higher standard of cleanliness.

Steve Temes

[Guest guest]

Steve, I do want to vacuum out the insulation that is there. It is

just too very old and nasty looking. Can you recommend an insulation

material?

>

> I'm not a fan of blown-in insulation in any form. You may want to

have the

> old insulation vacuumed out professionally and get a clean start on

the attic

> rather than bury 75 yrs worth of accumulated funk under new

insulation

> depending on your requirement for a higher standard of cleanliness.

>

> Steve Temes

>

[Guest guest]

Steve, I do want to vacuum out the insulation that is there. It is

just too very old and nasty looking. Can you recommend an insulation

material?

How about unfaced fiberglass batting with a plywood floor installed over it to minimize fiber release and make the space cleanable and useable for storage? There are less expensive options that will work fine (like blown-in) and innovative strategies that perform well (totally sealed attic spaces with insulation on the underside of the roof sheathing). I'll defer to others on the list for advice on these. I like a soffit and ridge vent combination for ventilation. Older homes like yours often have operable windows for attic ventilation or gable end vents. The most important thing is to get sufficient R value across the whole ceiling plane and to eliminate all communication between the attic and the conditioned space. I don't do specifications -- just recommendations for qualified people to implement.

Steve Temes

[Guest guest]

Thanks Steve,

I see packages of insulation at Home Depot that contain pink

fiberglass insulation. Are you referring to something like that? I

want to use something resistent to water damage. Fiberglass sounds

good for that.

Are there any indoor air quality people that get into specifics like

types of insulation, or should I consult an energy conservation

person?

I will be putting a 'walk around' floor so attic can at least be

inspected from time to time. Right now it's very difficult to walk up

there, have to balance on beams, etc.

>

>> >

> How about unfaced fiberglass batting with a plywood floor installed

over it

> to minimize fiber release and make the space cleanable and useab