Re: asp/pen levels outdoors

[Guest guest]

Alice,

Dr. Harriet Burge talked about outdoor Asp/Pen levels very briefly while she presented at the American Industrial Hygiene Conference and Exposition one week ago today. She said people had been telling her throughout her entire career that Aspergillus and Penicillium spp. aren't outdoor molds, that they're only indoors. She presented sampling results that indicated otherwise.

I don't remember where these particular results were from, but I do recall her saying that samples were taken year-round and that Asp/Pen species accounted for 80 percent of the outdoor spores across the entire year and that the peak concentrations reached as high as 3,500 counts per cubic meter. See the attached file for a photo of her slide. Perhaps you can make out the values indicated on the slide; they're a bit blurry on my screen.

Sincerely,

Steve Sauer, EditorIndoor Environment Connections12339 Carroll Ave.Rockville, MD 20852Phone: ext. 17Fax: E-mail: IECnews@...

I was asked to comment on a report of mold levels of asp/pen outdoors of 1700 and 2600 counts/m3 (total count is 3300 and 2100, respectively, with remainder being mostly Cladosporium) in gulf coast area. Two samples inside the house are around 700 (total count around 1500). The total counts seem low to me; the asp/pen seems slightly elevated, but I dont know what is typical for asp/pen in that area. I have seen the NRDC results which show some very high levels in New Orleans. I dont know if those levels have persisted. If anyone has any expertise in this area, I would appreciate you contacting me on or off the listserve. Thank you.Alice Freundalice.freund@...

[Guest guest]

The EMLab IAQ pocket reference guide 2006 provides a good reference for

comparing these numbers. You can chose the data from Florida or

Texas.

For Florida, the 97.5% percentile for Clado is 7639 s/m3 and the 97.5%

percentile for Pen/Asp is 4053 s/m3

Your numbers are a little less, but not significantly different.

As for NOLA, the counts have been very high at times. I have heard

that the levels are decreasing from people down there.

Bob

[Guest guest]

For what it is worth.....I have sampled the air in Sacramento, CA in April

and have found outdoor concentrations of Pen/Asp as high as 3987/6023-s/m3

respectively, with total spore counts as high as 21,530-s/m3; the majority

being Cladosporium. Interestingly, Stachybotryus is often present at 300 to

400-s/m3; which I believe is representative of the surrounding agriculture

and rice production. Needless to say, if you have allergies, Sacramento, CA

is not the place to be in the spring time.

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KENTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

> The EMLab IAQ pocket reference guide 2006 provides a good reference for

> comparing these numbers. You can chose the data from Florida or

> Texas.

>

> For Florida, the 97.5% percentile for Clado is 7639 s/m3 and the 97.5%

> percentile for Pen/Asp is 4053 s/m3

>

> Your numbers are a little less, but not significantly different.

>

> As for NOLA, the counts have been very high at times. I have heard

> that the levels are decreasing from people down there.

>

> Bob

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

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> 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit

> to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included

> information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to:

> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted

> material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use',

> you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

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[Guest guest]

Alice,

Even if the levels of P/A are close, there is still more to this compaprison

than meets the eye.

If the P/A spores outdoors are present primarily as individuals and those

indoors are present mostly in groups or in chains, there is still an indoor

source. Thus, the appearance of the spores (whether present in clusters or

chains vs individuals) can be critical in making a determination as to the

significance of the indoor/outdoor ratio. The labs really should report on

this, and not just the number counts.

C. May, M.A., CIAQP

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

1522 Cambridge Street

Cambridge, MA 02139

www.mayindoorair.com

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

Freund, Alice writes:

>

> I was asked to comment on a report of mold levels of asp/pen outdoors of 1700

and 2600 counts/m3 (total count is 3300 and 2100, respectively, with remainder

being mostly Cladosporium) in gulf coast area. Two samples inside the house are

around 700 (total count around 1500). The total counts seem low to me; the

asp/pen seems slightly elevated, but I dont know what is typical for asp/pen in

that area. I have seen the NRDC results which show some very high levels in New

Orleans. I dont know if those levels have persisted. If anyone has any expertise

in this area, I would appreciate you contacting me on or off the listserve.

Thank you.

>

> Alice Freund

> alice.freund@...

>

[Guest guest]

Go look at aaaai.org. You have low levels for the gulf coast.

B. Dotson, CIH, CSP, DEE

asp/pen levels outdoors

I was asked to comment on a report of mold levels of asp/pen outdoors of 1700 and 2600 counts/m3 (total count is 3300 and 2100, respectively, with remainder being mostly Cladosporium) in gulf coast area. Two samples inside the house are around 700 (total count around 1500). The total counts seem low to me; the asp/pen seems slightly elevated, but I dont know what is typical for asp/pen in that area. I have seen the NRDC results which show some very high levels in New Orleans. I dont know if those levels have persisted. If anyone has any expertise in this area, I would appreciate you contacting me on or off the listserve. Thank you.Alice Freundalice.freund@...

[Guest guest]

Alice, Then I guess your question is whether there is a hidden source of Asp/Pen in the house. The outdoor can be unusually high and there is stil an indoor source. The outdoor can be very low, and yet, all the Asp/Pen can be from outdoor. This has something to do with the indoor spores are the result of the "history" of the level of spores coming into the room, and the control/reference sample is only a 5 to 10 min samples. This is where an indoor reference can be helpful. The advance spore count can possibly help you with that. Unfortunately, if the samples were prepared by another lab, then it won't work very well. Jeff mentioned the cluster things, which is not difficult to do post-analysis regardless who prepared the samples. If you also have some Cladosporium, basidiospores and ascospores outdoors, then you can

compare those four group in their percentages. If the Asp/Pen percentage in indoor is significantly higher than that in outdoor (or indoor reference), then it pays to look further in the house. Good luck! Wei"Freund, Alice" wrote: Wei TangThank you. Its good to know about the labs differentiating the various species of asp/pen.We already know that there is a mold source indoors. There is visible mold from a roof leak and swab samples show high levels of alternaria, and no asp/pen. there is already a plan to remediate the leaks and visibly damaged materials. Its more a question of whether the outdoor

levels are unusually high and are a source for the indoor levels.Alice Re: asp/pen levels outdoorsAlice, I believe the questions that you are trying to ask is whether those indoor Asp/Pen spores came from outdoor. Or, is there an indoor mold growth (source)? (1) Asp/Pen-LIKE spores is a BIG GROUP of hundreds of species. (2) Outdoor Asp/Pen (or total) level could vary greatly even from day to day. Comparing your indoor (or outdoor) data to an "average range" of very variable numbers can only give you limited information.

Traditional spore counting can only identify spores based on fungal taxonomy. As such, identification at a species level is usually impossible. Spores are combined into a group when it is impossible to identify to a genus level, e.g. Aspergillus/Penicillium (Asp/Pen)-like spores. As a result, people may be misled to think that there is no difference between the spore counts of their indoor and outdoor samples. For instance, the Asp/Pen-like spores in an indoor sample could be small with a smooth cell wall, while the Asp/Pen spores in the outdoor sample are large with a rough cell wall. This signifies that they are not from the same fungal colony. Traditional spore counting does not point out this difference. Advance spore trap analyses are being offered by at least two labs to help people to answer that question. Asp/Pen and Cladosporium spores are being sorted into different groups (not based on fungal

taxonomy) to help to distinguish their possible different origins. To keep this forum as informational discussion, please go see the following websites for details. (1) Cladosporium and Pen/Asp analytical supplement by EMLab http://www.emlab.com/app/services/Services.po?event=analysis & type=216 (If this link doesn't work, try to search "Cladosporium and Pen/Asp analytical supplement" on their home page.) http://www.emlab.com/ (2) Spore Signature Analysis by QLAB http://www.qlabusa.com/spore_signature.html Wei Tang QLAB "Freund, Alice"

wrote: I was asked to comment on a report of mold levels of asp/pen outdoors of 1700 and 2600 counts/m3 (total count is 3300 and 2100, respectively, with remainder being mostly Cladosporium) in gulf coast area. Two samples inside the house are around 700 (total count around 1500). The total counts seem low to me; the asp/pen seems slightly elevated, but I dont know what is typical for asp/pen in that area. I have seen the NRDC results which show some very high levels in New Orleans. I dont know if those levels have persisted. If anyone has any expertise in this area, I would appreciate you contacting me on or off the listserve. Thank you.Alice Freundalice.freund@...FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental,

political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

Antoher way to tell the possible difference of outdoor and indoor Asp/Pen is by doing culturable analysis, but it takes 7-8 days. Wei QLAB"Freund, Alice" wrote: I was asked to comment on a report of mold levels of asp/pen outdoors of 1700 and 2600 counts/m3 (total count is 3300 and 2100, respectively, with remainder being mostly Cladosporium) in gulf coast area. Two samples inside the house are around 700 (total count around 1500). The total counts seem low to me; the asp/pen seems slightly elevated, but I dont know what is typical for asp/pen in that area. I have seen the NRDC results which show some very high levels in New

Orleans. I dont know if those levels have persisted. If anyone has any expertise in this area, I would appreciate you contacting me on or off the listserve. Thank you.Alice Freundalice.freund@... Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab Director QLAB5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLABusa.com

[Guest guest]

The optimal way is culturable analysis (viable air samples). We have seen many instances in which the Pen/Asp counts are equivalent indoors vs outdoors but the species mix is completely different. Culturable analysis takes us 5 working days.

Bob Lanier

MouldWorks

Re: asp/pen levels outdoors

Antoher way to tell the possible difference of outdoor and indoor Asp/Pen is by doing culturable analysis, but it takes 7-8 days.

Wei

QLAB"Freund, Alice" wrote:

I was asked to comment on a report of mold levels of asp/pen outdoors of 1700 and 2600 counts/m3 (total count is 3300 and 2100, respectively, with remainder being mostly Cladosporium) in gulf coast area. Two samples inside the house are around 700 (total count around 1500). The total counts seem low to me; the asp/pen seems slightly elevated, but I dont know what is typical for asp/pen in that area. I have seen the NRDC results which show some very high levels in New Orleans. I dont know if those levels have persisted. If anyone has any expertise in this area, I would appreciate you contacting me on or off the listserve. Thank you.Alice Freundalice.freund@...

Wei Tang, Ph.D.Lab Director

QLAB5 DriveCherry Hill, NJ 08003www.QLABusa.com