Guest guest Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Shell, Improperly cured concrete? How was this determined? Pretty unlikely. Who ruled out CO, HCHO, and mold? How? What was the property filled with before building? Simple fix, de-pressurize the floor. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Is it possible there could be moisture leaching through the walls? I can't think of the term but when dirty concrete is used it never cures right and then there is this white algae substance that builds up. It could be there is improper ventilation and there is minute dust particles bothering their bronchial tubes. Not an expert, just some thoughts. Shell Bleiweiss wrote: Anyone know about health effects of improperly cured concrete in the basement of a home? I have a prospective client who gets sick with burning lungs and flu like symptoms when spending much time in the basement of new (Feb. 2005) home. Others who spend time in basement also have similar symptoms. CO, formaldehyde and mold have been ruled out. PC says concrete floor seems dusty all the time. They cleaned up with water and vacuuming and aired out and problem subsided for a while, then came back. Ideas? Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawChicago and Barrington IL Officeswww.shell-bleiweiss.com Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Shell, I think you should collect an air sample and have it analyzed for total particles using TEM and XRD. You may wish to collect a wipe sample or two as reference material for the analyst. There are probably many labs that can do this, but I use EMSL for this particular analysis. Their # is 800- 220-3675 and ask for the IH lab. Mark Doughty Concrete Dust? Anyone know about health effects of improperly cured concrete in the basement of a home? I have a prospective client who gets sick with burning lungs and flu like symptoms when spending much time in the basement of new (Feb. 2005) home. Others who spend time in basement also have similar symptoms. CO, formaldehyde and mold have been ruled out. PC says concrete floor seems dusty all the time. They cleaned up with water and vacuuming and aired out and problem subsided for a while, then came back. Ideas? Shell Bleiweiss Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss Environmental and OSHA Law Chicago and Barrington IL Offices www.shell-bleiweiss.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Also, take some pH paper and see if it is alkaline. -----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of Mark DoughtySent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:59 AMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Concrete Dust? Shell, I think you should collect an air sample and have it analyzed for total particles using TEM and XRD. You may wish to collect a wipe sample or two as reference material for the analyst. There are probably many labs that can do this, but I use EMSL for this particular analysis. Their # is 800- 220-3675 and ask for the IH lab. Mark Doughty -----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Shell BleiweissSent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:44 PMTo: iequality Subject: Concrete Dust? Anyone know about health effects of improperly cured concrete in the basement of a home? I have a prospective client who gets sick with burning lungs and flu like symptoms when spending much time in the basement of new (Feb. 2005) home. Others who spend time in basement also have similar symptoms. CO, formaldehyde and mold have been ruled out. PC says concrete floor seems dusty all the time. They cleaned up with water and vacuuming and aired out and problem subsided for a while, then came back. Ideas? Shell BleiweissLaw Offices of Shell J. BleiweissEnvironmental and OSHA LawChicago and Barrington IL Officeswww.shell-bleiweiss.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Shell - Just a quick comment on basements. I saw a report on a home recently had people with trouble breathing in the basement. Consultants were baffled -- couldn't find any sources. Finally someone discovered that so much CO2 was entering the basement from the soil, the CO2 was displacing the oxygen. Low O2 - who'd have thought! So occasionally it may be worthwhile to measure O2 or CO2. In your case, the continued dust makes me think something else is happening. I'd want to cover the slab for a while, see if the dust is still appearing. I'd also like to put a dust sample under the microscope and see if it's all cement dust or if it looks like something else. Good fortune! Henry Henry Slack, P.E. U.S. EPA Region 4 Indoor Air Program For more assistance, try EPA's Web site, www.epa.gov/iaq or call EPA's Indoor Air Quality Information Clearinghouse . Experts are available 9-5 M-F >Anyone know about health effects of improperly cured concrete in the >basement of a home? I have a prospective client who gets sick with >burning lungs and flu like symptoms when spending much time in the >basement of new (Feb. 2005) home. Others who spend time in basement also >have similar symptoms. CO, formaldehyde and mold have been ruled out. PC >says concrete floor seems dusty all the time. They cleaned up with water >and vacuuming and aired out and problem subsided for a while, then came >back. Ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Shell: Sealing the concrete with a commercial product designed for concrete products may solve the problem, especially the dustiness. It might also be worth while checking on any concrete admixtures (e.g., fly ash) to the concrete that may have been added. Don Schaezler, Ph.D., P.E., CIH ETC Information Services, LLC Cibolo, Texas Shell Bleiweiss wrote: > > Anyone know about health effects of improperly cured concrete in the > basement of a home? I have a prospective client who gets sick with > burning lungs and flu like symptoms when spending much time in the > basement of new (Feb. 2005) home. Others who spend time in basement > also have similar symptoms. CO, formaldehyde and mold have been ruled > out. PC says concrete floor seems dusty all the time. They cleaned up > with water and vacuuming and aired out and problem subsided for a > while, then came back. Ideas? > > Shell Bleiweiss > Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss > Environmental and OSHA Law > Chicago and Barrington IL Offices > > www.shell-bleiweiss.com <http://www.shell-bleiweiss.com> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Bob: Please explain what you mean by depressurizing the floor. I think of creating positive or negative pressure in a structure or area as a way of assuring that bad stuff moves through openings in the direction we want (i.e. radon not coming in, asbestos fibers not going out). If that is what you mean by depressurize the floor, how does it deal with a floor itself (the suspicion, not proven by any means) that is producing the problem? Remember, I am a lawyer, not an engineer. Think of me as your 8 year old son and explain, explain, explain <g>. Shell Bleiweiss Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss Environmental and OSHA Law Chicago and Barrington IL Offices www.shell-bleiweiss.com Re: Concrete Dust? > Shell, > > Improperly cured concrete? How was this determined? Pretty unlikely. > > Who ruled out CO, HCHO, and mold? How? > > What was the property filled with before building? > > Simple fix, de-pressurize the floor. > > Bob > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 Shell, If I were looking for someone who may have prior knowledge of ill health complaints brought on by new construction/possible slab problems, I would go to Seats of Homeowners Against Deficient Dwellings ns@... or Janet Ammand of Homeowners for Better Builders president@.... Both women volunteer much time on the subject and have for several years. I am sure they would both be glad to help you, if they can. And I would be inclined to think if anybody, they have probably seen this problem before. Sharon >> Anyone know about health effects of improperly cured concrete in the basement of a home? I have a prospective client who gets sick with burning lungs and flu like symptoms when spending much time in the basement of new (Feb. 2005) home. Others who spend time in basement also have similar symptoms. CO, formaldehyde and mold have been ruled out. PC says concrete floor seems dusty all the time. They cleaned up with water and vacuuming and aired out and problem subsided for a while, then came back. Ideas?> > Shell Bleiweiss> Law Offices of Shell J. Bleiweiss> Environmental and OSHA Law> Chicago and Barrington IL Offices> > www.shell-bleiweiss.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 Steve: You describe a VERY common problem in new construction, and the problem is pervasive all over the U.S. Excessive soil-moisture intrusion (and secondary effects) accounts for over 60% of new home construction complaints nation-wide! I find it ironic and humorous at the same time, and don't understand why the building codes don't prescribe more effective vapor barriers and/or why administrative requirements (local building codes) don't step-in where the regional building codes are deficient. It is not like these issues are new, or unknown. If a robust vapor barrier was installed at the time of construction, problems associated with excessive moisture vapor, radon, and other soil gases would be mute. Many codes still recommend a single layer of 4-mil or 6-mil polyethylene. If you ever built anything, or were involved with fabricating foundations, most single sheets of poly don't survive the installation of rebar and dobie-blocks, and concrete contractors routinely puncture and tear whatever sheet plastic is present. They often don't care. My standard vapor barrier design is: 1 " to 2 " of clean, medium to fine-grain construction sand, two layers of 6-mil black poly (available at any home-improvement store), staggered sheets with 50% overlap, seams sealed with clear packaging tape (any tape will do and it is available at any office supply store), then covered with another 2 " layer of clean sand. All plumbing and structural penetrations are sealed with plastic sheeting and tape. The BIGGEST issue (after the barrier is installed) is to supervise the concrete contractor for job-site performance, i.e., no rebar or metal stakes through the plastic, and NO leaning on the shovel! (You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to break laborers of this habit.) If properly done, this barrier will last the life of the structure, keep out water, radon, and all other vapors. Total cost?...Under $1,000 for a 2,000-sq.ft. building footprint, slab-on-grade foundation. If really high concentrations of soil-gas vapors are present at the building site, an HDPE/ABS french-drain system placed just under the bottom sand layer and plumbed to the roof, provides a preferential pathway for gases to safely migrate. The whole system is passive and requires no energy input ever. If soil-water is an issue, a HDPE french-drain system placed below the vadose zone (capillary fringe) will do nicely if sloped to drain/sump. It is SO EASY to install these systems correctly at the time of construction, and like you experienced, it is a damn costly nightmare to retrofit later. This is a BIG practice area of mine, i.e., designing vapor barriers for new construction and fixing problem buildings that have vapor intrusion. I often see many nice, new (i.e., less than 3-yrs old), buildings that are really harmed due to an inadequate or poorly installed vapor barrier; and once the concrete is placed, there is not a whole lot that can be done within a reasonable budget to mitigate the problem. Moreover, the most effective mitigation controls are often active systems that have significant life-cycle costs. The lack of front-end (pre-concrete) engineering controls would eliminate a lot of back-end (post-construction) problems. For what it is worth... -- ***************************************************** Geyer PE, CIH, CSP PRESIDENT KERNTEC Industries, Inc. 3703 Columbus Street Bakersfield, California 93306 P F mgeyer@... www.kerntecindustries.com www.michaelgeyer.com ***************************************************** > The hallmark of my sick house 10 years ago was efflorescence forming on the > garage floor, which was the lowest concrete slab in the house. > > The problem was moisture coming up through the slabs, continuously. A > substance -- which was never identified despite the expenditure of >$10K in > testing and drawing on the expertise of several highly recommended CIH and > other experts -- came into the house with that moisture, caused flulike > symptoms especially in sensitized individuals, and most likely was related to > an ultrafine white dust we observed after the house had been evacuated for 6 > months. > > In retrospect 10 years later, I think the substance was a metal in soluble > form. Whether it came from the soil, the concrete, or something from the soil > playing ion-exchange as the water wicked through the slab will never be known. > > We fixed the drainage problem (twice, before we got it right) and that stopped > whatever was coming into the house. " The bottom of the french drains must be > at least the wicking height of the soil below the base of the stemwalls. " > > The importance of the house being only two years old is that something leached > from the soil has had time to reach the interior of the house, but not enough > time to leach out all that was in the soil. Just a thought. > > Steve Chalmers > stevec@... > This E-mail scanned for spam and viruses by ATG Internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 Bob: Positive pressurization....see my post to . -- Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP President KERNTEC Industries, Inc. Bakersfield, California www.kerntecindustries.com > , > > We bled is 20% outside air to keep the concentration way below the LEL. > > I agree that systems can be designed, but other than ripping out the > concrete floor and putting in a passive system on a grid, and then > pouring a new floor at a cost of many thousands of dollars. > > What other low cost alternatives are there? > > Bob > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been > specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material > available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, > human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. > We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as > provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title > 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit > to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included > information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: > http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted > material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', > you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Dang that Spell Check! Did you perhaps mean " efflorescence " ? Yes, but I according to my disclaimer, I disavow any knowledge of having done so. :-) Oh well, disclaimers only go so far. I guess my enthusiasm in making my comments was a little too efflorescent. And my spellchecker, it's clueless, although it did highlight spellchecker. ************************************************************ K. Klein, PE ME, MBA Indoor Air Quality Solutions, Inc. 2523 SR 133 Bethel, OH 45106-0007 VOICE: FAX: (with notice) E-mail: mkklein68@... ************************************************************ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Why is this only a problem with new construction? Certainly old homes didnt have plastic vapor barriers. Re: Concrete Dust? Steve: You describe a VERY common problem in new construction, and the problem is pervasive all over the U.S. Excessive soil-moisture intrusion (and secondary effects) accounts for over 60% of new home construction complaints nation-wide! I find it ironic and humorous at the same time, and don't understand why the building codes don't prescribe more effective vapor barriers and/or why administrative requirements (local building codes) don't step-in where the regional building codes are deficient. It is not like these issues are new, or unknown. If a robust vapor barrier was installed at the time of construction, problems associated with excessive moisture vapor, radon, and other soil gases would be mute. Many codes still recommend a single layer of 4-mil or 6-mil polyethylene. If you ever built anything, or were involved with fabricating foundations, most single sheets of poly don't survive the installation of rebar and dobie-blocks, and concrete contractors routinely puncture and tear whatever sheet plastic is present. They often don't care. My standard vapor barrier design is: 1 " to 2 " of clean, medium to fine-grain construction sand, two layers of 6-mil black poly (available at any home-improvement store), staggered sheets with 50% overlap, seams sealed with clear packaging tape (any tape will do and it is available at any office supply store), then covered with another 2 " layer of clean sand. All plumbing and structural penetrations are sealed with plastic sheeting and tape. The BIGGEST issue (after the barrier is installed) is to supervise the concrete contractor for job-site performance, i.e., no rebar or metal stakes through the plastic, and NO leaning on the shovel! (You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to break laborers of this habit.) If properly done, this barrier will last the life of the structure, keep out water, radon, and all other vapors. Total cost?...Under $1,000 for a 2,000-sq.ft. building footprint, slab-on-grade foundation. If really high concentrations of soil-gas vapors are present at the building site, an HDPE/ABS french-drain system placed just under the bottom sand layer and plumbed to the roof, provides a preferential pathway for gases to safely migrate. The whole system is passive and requires no energy input ever. If soil-water is an issue, a HDPE french-drain system placed below the vadose zone (capillary fringe) will do nicely if sloped to drain/sump. It is SO EASY to install these systems correctly at the time of construction, and like you experienced, it is a damn costly nightmare to retrofit later. This is a BIG practice area of mine, i.e., designing vapor barriers for new construction and fixing problem buildings that have vapor intrusion. I often see many nice, new (i.e., less than 3-yrs old), buildings that are really harmed due to an inadequate or poorly installed vapor barrier; and once the concrete is placed, there is not a whole lot that can be done within a reasonable budget to mitigate the problem. Moreover, the most effective mitigation controls are often active systems that have significant life-cycle costs. The lack of front-end (pre-concrete) engineering controls would eliminate a lot of back-end (post-construction) problems. For what it is worth... -- ***************************************************** Geyer PE, CIH, CSP PRESIDENT KERNTEC Industries, Inc. 3703 Columbus Street Bakersfield, California 93306 P F mgeyer@... www.kerntecindustries.com www.michaelgeyer.com ***************************************************** > The hallmark of my sick house 10 years ago was efflorescence forming on the > garage floor, which was the lowest concrete slab in the house. > > The problem was moisture coming up through the slabs, continuously. A > substance -- which was never identified despite the expenditure of >$10K in > testing and drawing on the expertise of several highly recommended CIH and > other experts -- came into the house with that moisture, caused flulike > symptoms especially in sensitized individuals, and most likely was related to > an ultrafine white dust we observed after the house had been evacuated for 6 > months. > > In retrospect 10 years later, I think the substance was a metal in soluble > form. Whether it came from the soil, the concrete, or something from the soil > playing ion-exchange as the water wicked through the slab will never be known. > > We fixed the drainage problem (twice, before we got it right) and that stopped > whatever was coming into the house. " The bottom of the french drains must be > at least the wicking height of the soil below the base of the stemwalls. " > > The importance of the house being only two years old is that something leached > from the soil has had time to reach the interior of the house, but not enough > time to leach out all that was in the soil. Just a thought. > > Steve Chalmers > stevec@... > This E-mail scanned for spam and viruses by ATG Internet. FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 The house in question had a heavy plastic vapor barrier under the slab, although it was one of the first constructed after that became a code requirement here. My guess is the plumbing wasn't sealed as it went through the plastic. We observed two problems with the whole concept of using plastic to stop water coming up: first, most of the water was wicking up through the concrete stemwalls, which occurs completely independent of any plastic in other places. We had just the moisture barrier vinyl (the grey stuff) down for several months before putting new flooring, and could see color changes where water was reaching it...along the stemwalls. Second, when we used it in the first attempt at french drains around the house perimeter, it appeared that something was being concentrated (distilled?) just below the plastic. I had horrible reactions when the drains were excavated (to make them deeper), when the underside of the plastic was exposed to air and allowed to dry. My guess is that the ultrafine dust which was drawn up through slab cracks under the house's massive cabinetry may have had a similar origin. This was a problem with perched water over/in hardpan clay, in the presence of an ornamental retaining wall preventing proper drainage of the front yard, which are likely not the conditions you are treating. Very similar to that subdivision in Merced they had to bulldoze around that same time, however. My own conclusion? Plastic is useless and proper drainage is a must. But that's just for the problem I had... Steve Chalmers stevec@... -------------------------------- 3b. Re: Concrete Dust? Posted by: " Geyer " mgeyer@... bs101master Wed Jul 5, 2006 1:04 pm (PST) Steve: You describe a VERY common problem in new construction, and the problem is pervasive all over the U.S. Excessive soil-moisture intrusion (and secondary effects) accounts for over 60% of new home construction complaints nation-wide! I find it ironic and humorous at the same time, and don't understand why the building codes don't prescribe more effective vapor barriers and/or why administrative requirements (local building codes) don't step-in where the regional building codes are deficient. It is not like these issues are new, or unknown. If a robust vapor barrier was installed at the time of construction, problems associated with excessive moisture vapor, radon, and other soil gases would be mute. Many codes still recommend a single layer of 4-mil or 6-mil polyethylene. If you ever built anything, or were involved with fabricating foundations, most single sheets of poly don't survive the installation of rebar and dobie-blocks, and concrete contractors routinely puncture and tear whatever sheet plastic is present. They often don't care. My standard vapor barrier design is: 1 " to 2 " of clean, medium to fine-grain construction sand, two layers of 6-mil black poly (available at any home-improvement store), staggered sheets with 50% overlap, seams sealed with clear packaging tape (any tape will do and it is available at any office supply store), then covered with another 2 " layer of clean sand. All plumbing and structural penetrations are sealed with plastic sheeting and tape. The BIGGEST issue (after the barrier is installed) is to supervise the concrete contractor for job-site performance, i.e., no rebar or metal stakes through the plastic, and NO leaning on the shovel! (You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to break laborers of this habit.) If properly done, this barrier will last the life of the structure, keep out water, radon, and all other vapors. Total cost?...Under $1,000 for a 2,000-sq.ft. building footprint, slab-on-grade foundation. If really high concentrations of soil-gas vapors are present at the building site, an HDPE/ABS french-drain system placed just under the bottom sand layer and plumbed to the roof, provides a preferential pathway for gases to safely migrate. The whole system is passive and requires no energy input ever. If soil-water is an issue, a HDPE french-drain system placed below the vadose zone (capillary fringe) will do nicely if sloped to drain/sump. It is SO EASY to install these systems correctly at the time of construction, and like you experienced, it is a damn costly nightmare to retrofit later. This is a BIG practice area of mine, i.e., designing vapor barriers for new construction and fixing problem buildings that have vapor intrusion. I often see many nice, new (i.e., less than 3-yrs old), buildings that are really harmed due to an inadequate or poorly installed vapor barrier; and once the concrete is placed, there is not a whole lot that can be done within a reasonable budget to mitigate the problem. Moreover, the most effective mitigation controls are often active systems that have significant life-cycle costs. The lack of front-end (pre-concrete) engineering controls would eliminate a lot of back-end (post-construction) problems. For what it is worth... -- ***************************************************** Geyer PE, CIH, CSP PRESIDENT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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