Re: A writing and attached article by Mulvey son

[Guest guest]

While I don't doubt that their exposures in the house may have made the family sick, and I wish Mulvey son success in helping mold victims, this article is fraught with sensationalism and speculation.

Was it the abandoned septic tank that made them sick or black mold? What is the relationship between one and the other? Did sewage contaminants enter the air in the crawl space and house? What caused mold to grow in the crawl space?

The spores were like dust and they were everywhere. A high chair sprouted "stuff that looked like something out of a horror movie" (mold?) overnight.

The experts said to get out and tear the place down because the house was toxic.

She had mold coming out of her head.

There isn't a whole lot of medical, microbiological, or building science described in this article. This might have been a good case study to demonstrate that exposure to certain indoor contaminants causes negative health effects, as MMJ intended, if only a decent study had been done. Based on this article, the opportunity to use this as an exemplary case study was missed. I strongly suggest that it not be used to illustrate how mold makes people sick if the objective is to convince the "mold denialists".

Steve Temes

The s had their water tested. But it wasn't the water. Dean's mother believed it was the house. So Dean went looking, and in the crawl space under the master bedroom, an addition built by the previous owner, he found ``black mold spores everywhere."

And then he discovered what he believes is the source. ``I'm out in the backyard, digging, and boom, I hit concrete." Just 12 inches from the bedroom -- against code and against logic -- there was a septic tank that had been left full when the property was linked to the town's sewer system in 1991.

Wearing protective gear, he cleaned up the mold and poured concrete over the dirt-bottom floor that separated the addition from the crawl space. And then he had the house tested. The experts said to get his family out, to tear the place down and leave everything. The house was toxic.

``The spores were like dust, and they were everywhere. Overnight, a high chair sprouted ``stuff that looked like something out of a horror movie," he said.

Mikaela's scalp started to ooze. ``The doctor thought it was goose poop from doing headstands in the park," her mother said. ``But then they tested it. She had mold coming out of her head."

The contractor who built the addition 12 inches from a septic tank is immune to any legal action. It happened too long ago. The town inspectors? They're immune, too. No one is culpable. No one is legally guilty because, while the family believes the black mold caused them to get sick, there is no definitive proof.

[Guest guest]

But of course " There is no conclusive proof that mold causes human disease " ...All of the things that happened to these and other people " are mere coincidence " ....Just kidding..

But seriously, everyone else in the world seems to realize that we are being lied to... except us! How did this happen to us?On 7/30/06,

snk1955@... wrote:

A writing by Mulvey son:

If any of you wonder why so many of us are fighting so hard on the issue of the devastating health effects of mold exposure, just read this article and you will understand.

Patrice and Dean are two of the nicest people you would ever want to meet. I stood with them on the sidewalk across the street from their home as it was being torn down. Any and every time I have asked Patrice to write a letter to congress, testify before the Boston City Council or just recently testifying before the Massachusetts Joint Committee on Public Health supporting H 4766 (An Act Relative to Healthy Schools and Other Public Buildings) she has been there. Despite their tremendous loss and pain, they are there to support any and all efforts to keep people from getting sick from exposure to mold and going through what they did.

That's why we are working so hard on bringing this health crisis to the forefront. We don't want you to go through what we went through.

To all those out there in peer review land who are trying to say that mold doesn't harm your health, consider yourself on notice. Tell Patrice and Dean mold exposure is harmless; tell that to everyone else out there who is suffering from mold exposure. I can put my head on the pillow at night. Can you?

Mulvey son

THIS STORY HAS BEEN FORMATTED FOR EASY PRINTING

BEVERLY BECKHAM

Their house was not a healthy home

July 30, 2006

Everything about the child is beautiful. She has beautiful hair, beautiful eyes (made even more beautiful by silver glitter on the day we meet), a beautiful smile, and a beautiful soul.

You can see a child's soul when they're new. ``Where did you come from, baby dear? Out of the everywhere into the here. " So says the poem. But as they age? Souls often hide.

Mikaela 's soul shines. She is 9 years old and going into fourth grade. She lives on a quiet street in Abington with her mother, Patrice, her father, Dean, her sisters Deanna, 14, and a, 7, and her new umbrella cockatoo, Sassy. She likes to write and draw and go fishing with her Uncle . And she wants to be a teacher. Or a doctor. Mikaela, in many ways, is a typical kid.

Except that what happened to her and to her family is not typical.

But I am not at her house to talk about a heart infection that nearly killed her. Or how sick her sisters were, or how her father got an infection in his vocal cords and couldn't talk for three months. Or how her mother had pneumonia more than 20 times in six years. Or how a baby boy born nine months before she was died when he was just 6 months old.

I have come to meet not a victim but a young author who, along with a dozen other classmates, wrote a book.

``Angel and Meggy " is the title of Mikaela's self-published story. Angel is a red speckled ladybug and Meggy is a little girl with long blonde hair and a big smile , and they are friends. There's a blue sky, a yellow sun, and bright green grass. Everything is perfect , but then the friends quarrel and Meggy cries until Angel says ``I'm sorry " and the world is right again.

If only an ``I'm sorry " could make the world right again.

``My angel, " is what Mikaela's mom called her son. ``He was the most perfect little boy. " And ladybugs are her spiritual connection to him.

Mikaela never met her brother, . But he lives in her heart.

You can't tell by looking at her that she's missing a brother. Or that for the first six years of her life she was always sick, that everyone in her family was sick. Because now she is better. Now the whole family is on the mend.

Except for , who died on Valentine's Day 1996.

Dean and Patrice grew up in Dorchester. They dated in their teens. They got married, lived in East Harwich, had a healthy baby daughter, and then moved to Abington, to a four-bedroom Cape.

Six months later , was born. ``He was the best baby. Always smiling. " His death was seen as a fluke. A tragedy. Bacterial meningitis.

Inexplicable.

After died, Dean and Patrice and daughter Deana suffered bouts of dizziness, and had rashes and kidney infections and lung problems. ``We thought it was grief. " Patrice says.

And then Mikaela was born , and she had rashes, too, and chronic strep throat. When she was 6 months old, doctors found a bacterial infection in her blood.

``It was a nightmare, " said Patrice. Then a was born, and her face kept swelling up. ``We all had different problems , so no one saw the same medical people. "

So no one put the pieces together -- sick parents, sick kids, even the dogs were sick. The family's two cocker spaniels both developed lung and kidney disease.

The s had their water tested. But it wasn't the water. Dean's mother believed it was the house. So Dean went looking, and in the crawl space under the master bedroom, an addition built by the previous owner, he found ``black mold spores everywhere. "

And then he discovered what he believes is the source. ``I'm out in the backyard, digging, and boom, I hit concrete. " Just 12 inches from the bedroom -- against code and against logic -- there was a septic tank that had been left full when the property was linked to the town's sewer system in 1991.

Wearing protective gear, he cleaned up the mold and poured concrete over the dirt-bottom floor that separated the addition from the crawl space. And then he had the house tested. The experts said to get his family out, to tear the place down and leave everything. The house was toxic.

``The spores were like dust, and they were everywhere. Overnight, a high chair sprouted ``stuff that looked like something out of a horror movie, " he said.

Mikaela's scalp started to ooze. ``The doctor thought it was goose poop from doing headstands in the park, " her mother said. ``But then they tested it. She had mold coming out of her head. "

The contractor who built the addition 12 inches from a septic tank is immune to any legal action. It happened too long ago. The town inspectors? They're immune, too. No one is culpable. No one is legally guilty because, while the family believes the black mold caused them to get sick, there is no definitive proof.

But, morally?

The s tore down their house and carted it away. And decontaminated their lot. Friends helped them. The insurance company canceled their policy, so friends helped them build their new house, too, on the cleaned-up site.

They took a second mortgage and moved in three summers ago. The house is beautiful. The girls are beautiful. ``They're healthy. That's all I care about, " Patrice says.

But they still have asthma, and Patrice has polycystic kidney disease, and Mikaela has learning difficulties. And the dogs had to be put down.

``So you have three girls, " people say when they meet the s. ``Yes, three girls, " they reply.

But they had a boy, too. , called Angel by his mother. ``We didn't just lose our home, " she says. ``We lost our son. "

Beverly Beckham can be reached at bbeckham@...

..

�

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

[Guest guest]

Sharon, You talk a lot about all the things that are wrong in the mold "world" - research is being stifled by commercial interests... doctors arent being trained... bad science is being promoted as "truth"... etc. But I dont believe I've ever heard you voice what goal(s) you hope to achieve from your activism. "Raising awareness"? What does that mean in the real world? Broad ideals sure, but no specifics or achievables. What are your project goals and timelines? I assume you hope to achieve something tangible from your efforts. No? With that thought in mind, what was the purpose of posting that letter here? A heart tugging story for sure. But think who your audience is here. You posted it to a group of mold/IAQ professionals all of whom could recount their own heart tugging stories. I'm not trying to come across as a callous git but more trying to get you to think about what you are

trying to do. WE get it. We're already in the trenches helping our clients. Did that letter help us do our job better? All Im trying to say is continue to be the dogged investigator you are and give us information we can use positively. Dont waste your considerable and precious energy and empathy giving us rhetoric that contains nothing substantive. I'll probably continue to argue with you but I will continue to admire you for your passion, fire and determination. So was that a back-handed compliment? :-> Stuart McCallum

[Guest guest]

I think the issue is that some people think that they can practice their businesses, such as renting homes or or building homes - practice their businesses, cutting important corners very irresponsibly, confident in the current atmosphere of cronyism and corruption that they will never be called to task for ruining many (mostly poor) people's lives. Its as if there's a private joke between these greedy folks and some (irresponsible) government officials that its okay to do this. To collect people's money, while giving them something worse than nothing, a health nightmare. And because the laws are nonexistent or intentionally ambiguous, when injured people, desperate, go to the government hoping there will be help for them, they find only derision..

This experience is sobering. Why? because there is no safety net. You can't get back those years, that health you once had..Life threatening stress, in and of itself, changes people neurologically. (See http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/02/health/psychology/02psych.html )We don't get a second life. The life we have is all we have.

That is why people who intentionally poison people for their own profit should be punished appropriately, under criminal as well as civil stautes

, yet to be written.Some people just don't get it. Those people are profoundly part of the problem, and not part of the solution.I don't think that they ever will get it. (A lot of it probably has to do with their own narcissism - I suspect that many of the mold poisoners around us share a disorder which makes many people blind to their own impacts on others..as they lack a functioning conscience and the ability to empathize.. look it up under " NPD " They leave a trail of grief in their wake..)

[Guest guest]

Was it

the abandoned septic tank that made them sick or black mold?

A thought struck me while reading this post. Why do we even use

this term on this list? Is it possible that folks do not realize

that there are other molds with black appearance other than Stachy?

I ran into such a mold. The stuff was black as coal, existing on

the debris layer on supply ducts that also had a condensation

problem. The mold? Cladisporium, one of the most common

molds, particularly in the fall when leaves, it primary food source, are

most abundant.

Black mold is a term used by sensationalists and not one I would think

should be used by the professionals on this list. We should know

better. Even " a black mold " is better terminology than

simply " black mold " , which has come to imply Stachy.

******************************************************

If what is written looks too stupid to be written by me, I disclaim

it. On

the other hand, if it is brilliant, then I have no one to blame but

myself.

Otherwise, whether you choose to accept my opinion is up to you.

******************************************************

K. Klein, PE ME, MBA

Indoor Air Quality Solutions, Inc.

2523 SR 133

Bethel, OH 45106-0007

VOICE:

FAX: (with notice)

E-mail: mkklein68@...

*******************************************************

Wouldn't it be nice if common sense were really common?

[Guest guest]

Matt,

You missed my point. I used the term "black mold" because I was critiquing the article (posted by Sharon) that vaguely accused an abandoned septic tank and black mold of causing even more vague health problems, as well as a child's death. I was noting that the article did not distinguish between either "causative agent" and was written as though the mere presence of a septic tank and black mold explained the cause of the family's health problems.

I never use the term black mold in my work and have not used it, other than as a quote from some non-scientist, on this list. I have been taking (black and every other color) mold samples since the early '90s, before there was an AIHA EMPAT program and when I had trouble finding a lab that would even analyze my air samples -- and before the term black mold was used in the popular media. Now all of the new mold labs that have sprung up like Starbucks are bombarding me with marketing and everyone is a mold expert.

I agree with your comments, however, they do not pertain to me as I am not the professional who "used the term". I quoted the article that I was criticizing for not being scientific, which you might have realized if you had read what I wrote more carefully. As long as you are pointing out that Cladosporium is a common mold Genus which contains Species that can be black (something I have known for many years), you might want to spell it correctly. And be advised that Memnoniella and Chaetomium and some of the Aspergilli and Penicillia, etc., etc. are also black in color.

Steve Temes

Was it the abandoned septic tank that made them sick or black mold?

A thought struck me while reading this post. Why do we even use this term on this list? Is it possible that folks do not realize that there are other molds with black appearance other than Stachy? I ran into such a mold. The stuff was black as coal, existing on the debris layer on supply ducts that also had a condensation problem. The mold? Cladisporium, one of the most common molds, particularly in the fall when leaves, it primary food source, are most abundant.

Black mold is a term used by sensationalists and not one I would think should be used by the professionals on this list. We should know better. Even "a black mold" is better terminology than simply "black mold", which has come to imply Stachy.

Steve Temes wrote on 7/31/06:

While I don't doubt that their exposures in the house may have made the family sick, and I wish Mulvey son success in helping mold victims, this article is fraught with sensationalism and speculation.

Was it the abandoned septic tank that made them sick or black mold? What is the relationship between one and the other? Did sewage contaminants enter the air in the crawl space and house? What caused mold to grow in the crawl space?

The spores were like dust and they were everywhere. A high chair sprouted "stuff that looked like something out of a horror movie" (mold?) overnight.

The experts said to get out and tear the place down because the house was toxic.

She had mold coming out of her head.

There isn't a whole lot of medical, microbiological, or building science described in this article. This might have been a good case study to demonstrate that exposure to certain indoor contaminants causes negative health effects, as MMJ intended, if only a decent study had been done. Based on this article, the opportunity to use this as an exemplary case study was missed. I strongly suggest that it not be used to illustrate how mold makes people sick if the objective is to convince the "mold denialists".

Steve Temes

The s had their water tested. But it wasn't the water. Dean's mother believed it was the house. So Dean went looking, and in the crawl space under the master bedroom, an addition built by the previous owner, he found ``black mold spores everywhere."

And then he discovered what he believes is the source. ``I'm out in the backyard, digging, and boom, I hit concrete." Just 12 inches from the bedroom -- against code and against logic -- there was a septic tank that had been left full when the property was linked to the town's sewer system in 1991.

Wearing protective gear, he cleaned up the mold and poured concrete over the dirt-bottom floor that separated the addition from the crawl space. And then he had the house tested. The experts said to get his family out, to tear the place down and leave everything. The house was toxic.

``The spores were like dust, and they were everywhere. Overnight, a high chair sprouted ``stuff that looked like something out of a horror movie," he said.

Mikaela's scalp started to ooze. ``The doctor thought it was goose poop from doing headstands in the park," her mother said. ``But then they tested it. She had mold coming out of her head."

The contractor who built the addition 12 inches from a septic tank is immune to any legal action. It happened too long ago. The town inspectors? They're immune, too. No one is culpable. No one is legally guilty because, while the family believes the black mold caused them to get sick, there is no definitive proof.

[Guest guest]

Matt:

Oh so well put! The term “black mold” and/or “toxic black mold” has been so bastardized it is pathetic. My favorite is Aspergillus niger; a toxic black mold that is also the primary ingredient in Bean-O. Does this mean that all toxic black molds reduce flatulence?

For what it is worth....

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

Was it the abandoned septic tank that made them sick or black mold?

A thought struck me while reading this post. Why do we even use this term on this list? Is it possible that folks do not realize that there are other molds with black appearance other than Stachy? I ran into such a mold. The stuff was black as coal, existing on the debris layer on supply ducts that also had a condensation problem. The mold? Cladisporium, one of the most common molds, particularly in the fall when leaves, it primary food source, are most abundant.

Black mold is a term used by sensationalists and not one I would think should be used by the professionals on this list. We should know better. Even " a black mold " is better terminology than simply " black mold " , which has come to imply Stachy.

******************************************************

If what is written looks too stupid to be written by me, I disclaim it. On

the other hand, if it is brilliant, then I have no one to blame but myself.

Otherwise, whether you choose to accept my opinion is up to you.

******************************************************

K. Klein, PE ME, MBA

Indoor Air Quality Solutions, Inc.

2523 SR 133

Bethel, OH 45106-0007

VOICE:

FAX: (with notice)

E-mail: mkklein68@...

*******************************************************

Wouldn't it be nice if common sense were really common?

[Guest guest]

Hey Guys,

When people are not as technically educated to the correct terminology as those who work within the field of the subject matter, I think you have to cut them some slack and try to understand the meaning of what they are saying.

It's just like in real estate sales, not hot tubs are Jacuzzis, not all wood floors are hard wood, and some peak ocean views are really peek ocean views.

Sharon

Matt:Oh so well put! The term “black mold†and/or “toxic black mold†has been so bastardized it is pathetic. My favorite is Aspergillus niger; a toxic black mold that is also the primary ingredient in Bean-O. Does this mean that all toxic black molds reduce flatulence?For what it is worth....-- Geyer, PE, CIH, CSPPresidentKERNTEC Industries, Inc.Bakersfield, Californiawww.kerntecindustries.com

[Guest guest]

I agree, I always laugh when someone or a client states they have identified toxic black mold (based on their unprofessional visual assessment). Too bad I don't have a microscope eyeball...

Re: A writing and attached article by Mulvey son

Was it the abandoned septic tank that made them sick or black mold? A thought struck me while reading this post. Why do we even use this term on this list? Is it possible that folks do not realize that there are other molds with black appearance other than Stachy? I ran into such a mold. The stuff was black as coal, existing on the debris layer on supply ducts that also had a condensation problem. The mold? Cladisporium, one of the most common molds, particularly in the fall when leaves, it primary food source, are most abundant.Black mold is a term used by sensationalists and not one I would think should be used by the professionals on this list. We should know better. Even "a black mold" is better terminology than simply "black mold", which has come to imply Stachy.

******************************************************If what is written looks too stupid to be written by me, I disclaim it. Onthe other hand, if it is brilliant, then I have no one to blame but myself. Otherwise, whether you choose to accept my opinion is up to you.****************************************************** K. Klein, PE ME, MBAIndoor Air Quality Solutions, Inc.2523 SR 133Bethel, OH 45106-0007VOICE: FAX: (with notice)E-mail: mkklein68adelphia (DOT) net*******************************************************Wouldn't it be nice if common sense were really common?

[Guest guest]

You

missed my point. I used the term " black mold " because I .

.. .

Whew! Steve, calm down my friend. I was not making any attack

on you, and I didn't miss your point. I was making a point using

your message, as implied by my writing that " a thought struck

me " . I in no way intended to say that you were less the man

than you are. :-) BTW, my spell checker doesn't like any of the

genera or species that I type, and it is very upset at you for publicly

pointing out its short-comings.

******************************************************

If what is written looks too stupid to be written by me, I disclaim

it. On

the other hand, if it is brilliant, then I have no one to blame but

myself.

Otherwise, whether you choose to accept my opinion is up to you.

******************************************************

K. Klein, PE ME, MBA

Indoor Air Quality Solutions, Inc.

2523 SR 133

Bethel, OH 45106-0007

VOICE:

FAX: (with notice)

E-mail: mkklein68@...

*******************************************************

Wouldn't it be nice if common sense were really common?

[Guest guest]

Amen, Matt!

Miles

[Guest guest]

Any kind of septic tank is bound to be extremely dangerous because of the high concentrations of both bacterial toxins and also *especially important* hydrogen sulfide, which can be extremely toxic.. even at fairly low concentrations..

At least this is what I have read again and again..H2S causes brain damage. There is a big battle going on right now because in te Midwest there are these huge feedlots where animals live in filth and their excrement produces high quantities of H2S as it decays. A number of studies have looked at the neurological effects of the kinds of low level hydrogen sulfide exposure typical of downwind of these huge commercial 'farms' and they are very damaging.

Go to EHP and do a search for the word 'feedlot' and you'll see what i mean.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,No, I have no connection with that site and I'm not an air quality professional. I'm a renter who had a recent, nightmarish experience with mold in my apartment, tried for a long time to get it fixed, and finally, fled..

I don't use my name on the list because at the moldy apartment and the one after it, my apartments were broken into and I was harassed repeatedly and physically threatened by my then ex-landlord. To the best of my knowledge, they still have not cleaned up the building I ived in.. despite literally years now of first refusing to acknowledge that they had been told about the mold, then denial, and then, intermittently, making promises that they would.. (and then denial again, depending on the auidience..)

This was a lesson for me.. a lesson I don't care to repeat. My health is better now on some levels but I still have major health issues from that place and I am trying to piece my life back together.. I suppose I'm luckier than some but I don't want to push my luck.

I'm really sorry if I said anything that offended you. Sometimes I just speak my mind and don't necessarily say the right thing. If you can explain when/how/if I'm breaking any list rules, I'd be grateful.

So,

LiveSimply [

quackadillian@...] ..

just who are you?

Is this your site

http://www.livesimply.com/? If so, There

are no identifiers that I could find on your site either.

N. Walsh

LSU-OES

From:

iequality [mailto:

iequality ] On Behalf Of LiveSimply

Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006

10:48 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: A writing

and attached article by Mulvey son

I think the issue is that

some people think that they can practice their businesses, such as renting

homes or or building homes - practice their businesses, cutting important

corners very irresponsibly, confident in the current atmosphere of cronyism and

corruption that they will never be called to task for ruining many (mostly

poor) people's lives.

Its as if there's a private joke between these greedy folks and some

(irresponsible) government officials that its okay to do this. To collect

people's money, while giving them something worse than nothing, a health

nightmare. And because the laws are nonexistent or intentionally ambiguous,

when injured people, desperate, go to the government hoping there will be help

for them, they find only derision..

This experience is sobering. Why? because there is no safety net. You can't get

back those years, that health you once had..

Life threatening stress, in and of itself,

changes people neurologically.

(See http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/02/health/psychology/02psych.html

)

We don't get a second life. The life we have is all we have.

That is why people who intentionally poison

people for their own profit should be punished appropriately, under criminal as well as civil stautes ,

yet to be written.

Some people just don't get it. Those people are profoundly part of the problem,

and not part of the solution.

I don't think that they ever will get it.

(A lot of it probably has to do with their own narcissism - I suspect that many

of the mold poisoners around us share a disorder which makes many people blind

to their own impacts on others..as they lack a functioning conscience and the

ability to empathize.. look it up under " NPD " They leave a trail of

grief in their wake..)