RE: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

[Guest guest]

It would seem to me that you will need to buy one of their cows, get a receipt and/or registration in your name. Show that you are paying boarding, breeding (A.I. costs) and milking labor costs and feed costs to the tune of X amount of dollars per month, i.e. a contract spelling out how much you pay. I've never heard of that, but it sure would assure you of getting milk and keep the gov out of your business. You might work out a deal where you get the cow in trade for her calf when she has it. Of course it would all just be on paper. That way you won't have to put out all that money for the cow initially.

Out here, people go in together and get a steer or two or three, pay a farmer or buy the feed and then when the time comes, the farmer has it butchered, cut and wrapped and the people pay so much per pound for it, but have to pick it up from the place that processes it. It's not legal here to sell meat from your ranch, but it is legal to raise it for the people.

It's the same thing with chickens. I used to raise meat birds, have them processed and fill advanced orders when they were ready. But, legally, all I was supposed to do is raise them for the people and then sell the live birds to the people who were then supposed to go get them processed. Isn't that dumb?

Sounds like a good idea. Just make sure you have all the paperwork. It just might be the way people will get out from under all this bullshit from the government.

K.C.

True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

I'm considering trying to find an arrangement where I own a whole dairy cow and pay a farmer to board, feed and milk it. I believe the Oregon Department of Agriculture is going to go after cow shares. By owning the whole cow, then there's no cow share to challenge. Anybody out there ever done an arrangement like this that can give me some advice. Is it even feasible?

[Guest guest]

I wish you luck with this. As a farmer i wouldn't risk that a person might decide to purchase some land and suddenly their cow on paper become their cow. Set up as this the farmer would loose all his rights to that cow. I suppose we can't always have the best of both worlds.

Debbie ChikouskyManitoba, Canadagdchik@...http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/

True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

I'm considering trying to find an arrangement where I own a whole dairy cow and pay a farmer to board, feed and milk it. I believe the Oregon Department of Agriculture is going to go after cow shares. By owning the whole cow, then there's no cow share to challenge. Anybody out there ever done an arrangement like this that can give me some advice. Is it even feasible?

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

There is a misunderstanding here. I am not wanting to own the cow on paper. I actually want to own the cow. I would buy it outright (or in barter for something of equal or greater value). It would actually be my cow, free to come and get any time I wanted. I would reimburse the farmer for board, feed, vet expenses and for milking it for me with enough extra in the deal to make it worth the farmers while. Maybe the amount a farmer would have to charge me to make it worth their while would make it prohibitively expensive, but I won't know unless I ask.

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of & Debbie ChikouskySent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 11:09 AMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

I wish you luck with this. As a farmer i wouldn't risk that a person might decide to purchase some land and suddenly their cow on paper become their cow. Set up as this the farmer would loose all his rights to that cow. I suppose we can't always have the best of both worlds.

Debbie ChikouskyManitoba, Canadagdchik@...http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/

[Guest guest]

Thanks, K.C., these are exactly the kind of suggestions I was looking for. I hope you don't mind if I tap you with some more questions if I end up pursuing this.

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of TinybabeSent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:24 AMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

It would seem to me that you will need to buy one of their cows, get a receipt and/or registration in your name. Show that you are paying boarding, breeding (A.I. costs) and milking labor costs and feed costs to the tune of X amount of dollars per month, i.e. a contract spelling out how much you pay. I've never heard of that, but it sure would assure you of getting milk and keep the gov out of your business. You might work out a deal where you get the cow in trade for her calf when she has it. Of course it would all just be on paper. That way you won't have to put out all that money for the cow initially.

Out here, people go in together and get a steer or two or three, pay a farmer or buy the feed and then when the time comes, the farmer has it butchered, cut and wrapped and the people pay so much per pound for it, but have to pick it up from the place that processes it. It's not legal here to sell meat from your ranch, but it is legal to raise it for the people.

It's the same thing with chickens. I used to raise meat birds, have them processed and fill advanced orders when they were ready. But, legally, all I was supposed to do is raise them for the people and then sell the live birds to the people who were then supposed to go get them processed. Isn't that dumb?

Sounds like a good idea. Just make sure you have all the paperwork. It just might be the way people will get out from under all this bullshit from the government.

K.C.

[Guest guest]

Well I'm not running a dairy, but I do have my own horses and I board

others horses. Many times I have been asked if someone can half lease

one of my horses and I will have no part of that and all it's

liabilities, but if someone wanted to board a cow at my farm it would

be fine with me. That is a way better option in my mind than me

selling raw milk or selling cow shares. If they get land and take the

cow home good for them! Same as any horse boarded here, or the ones in

for training that get to go home, I see it as a good thing. I would

suggest to you for every customer you 'lose' that way the sucess of the

industry will bring you 2 more if it gets common.

I can see this getting a hole shot in it by some rule or law, but

meanwhile I say go for it!

April

[Guest guest]

I am new to all this, but I think somewhere along the line I read of

someone paying the farmer for 'labor' as opposed to milk or cheese. I

don't know if that would be another feasible work around?!

[Guest guest]

You would need to address the fact of removing the animal. A week or two week notice of removal would make sense. Custom raising contracts common in the dairy industry have 3 month notices except in case of emergency. If you think about it removing an animal at a moment's notice would force the farmer to live day by day for feed inventories, ect.

I also throw caution is that if the farmer boards more than one cow, then your milk would need to be segregated and the farmer could face liability if another cow's milk "potentially" contaminated your cows milk or could be said that it may have is a large liability at stake even though you owned your cow.

As far as ownership costs, due note that costs can be very volatile. If you want a vet to come look at and treat a simple case of ketosis or milk fever, you could be looking at $100. DA's 150+, calving problem 100-150, etc. not including treatments. On a herd basis it tends to average out, but a single cow can be baseline price or volatile expenses.

I seen successful cow arrangements where someone milks another persons milk cows in his herd (commodity milk). The two parties are cow knowledgeable and understand each other. I would personally hate to deal with someone in that situation where the cow is owned by someone not cow smart because if the cow has a bad calving or such and is no longer viable, an unknowledgeable cow owner will likely not understand things like that happen and would proceed to blame the farmer.....

It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt, physically, financially, and/or emotionally. If everyone one understands the other and manage the risks, it could work out beautifully.

RE: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

Debbie,

There is a misunderstanding here. I am not wanting to own the cow on paper. I actually want to own the cow. I would buy it outright (or in barter for something of equal or greater value). It would actually be my cow, free to come and get any time I wanted. I would reimburse the farmer for board, feed, vet expenses and for milking it for me with enough extra in the deal to make it worth the farmers while. Maybe the amount a farmer would have to charge me to make it worth their while would make it prohibitively expensive, but I won't know unless I ask.

[Guest guest]

That is also something that could be put into the contract, i.e. that the animal shall REMAIN on the farmer's property at his/her address for the life of the cow. This would also protect the farmer's investment.

However, if they have a cow they are willing to sell, with the understanding that they are merely going to board, feed and milk it for the person and at some time the buyer may decide to take the animal, that's OK too.

Sometimes there may be a situation like that would benefit both parties.

K.C.

True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

I'm considering trying to find an arrangement where I own a whole dairy cow and pay a farmer to board, feed and milk it. I believe the Oregon Department of Agriculture is going to go after cow shares. By owning the whole cow, then there's no cow share to challenge. Anybody out there ever done an arrangement like this that can give me some advice. Is it even feasible?

[Guest guest]

That is how it works with my cow shareholders. I never SELL milk. They pay

per gallon for my labor as well as for the share of the cow. Of course when

people come to my gate and ask if I sell milk, I always say NO. Never know

who's asking.

K.C.

Re: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

I am new to all this, but I think somewhere along the line I read of

someone paying the farmer for 'labor' as opposed to milk or cheese. I

don't know if that would be another feasible work around?!

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[Guest guest]

The one problem I see with this is if you pay someone to do all this for you, you might run into the problem with an employer/employee relationship and all the taxes and insurance that goes with it. Now, if you pay the farmer under the table, that is between the two of you. just my 2 cents Steph in Wyoming" C. Coombes" wrote: I'm considering trying to find an arrangement where I own a whole dairy cow and pay a farmer to board, feed and milk it. I believe the Oregon Department of Agriculture is going to go after

cow shares. By owning the whole cow, then there's no cow share to challenge. Anybody out there ever done an arrangement like this that can give me some advice. Is it even feasible?

Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.

[Guest guest]

I don't mind. I'm only suggesting what I would want to do if I was approached or had that in mind.

Actually, I think this is a good thing for both the consumer (who has the extra money to do this) and the farmer who wants to share the cow's milk.

I would also make sure you have something in the contract for the amount of milk you get and if any goes to the farmer in exchange for some of the board, feed, etc.

I don't know how much milk you would need per week, but even Margie, with one milking per day at this time, gives me about 16 gallons of milk per week. So, if you are talking a full sized Jersey, you could be talking about something close to 30-40 gallons a week with two milkings a day. That's a lot of milk. I would think that an agreement could come into play for that as well.

K.C.

RE: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

Thanks, K.C., these are exactly the kind of suggestions I was looking for. I hope you don't mind if I tap you with some more questions if I end up pursuing this.

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of TinybabeSent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 10:24 AMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

It would seem to me that you will need to buy one of their cows, get a receipt and/or registration in your name. Show that you are paying boarding, breeding (A.I. costs) and milking labor costs and feed costs to the tune of X amount of dollars per month, i.e. a contract spelling out how much you pay. I've never heard of that, but it sure would assure you of getting milk and keep the gov out of your business. You might work out a deal where you get the cow in trade for her calf when she has it. Of course it would all just be on paper. That way you won't have to put out all that money for the cow initially.

Out here, people go in together and get a steer or two or three, pay a farmer or buy the feed and then when the time comes, the farmer has it butchered, cut and wrapped and the people pay so much per pound for it, but have to pick it up from the place that processes it. It's not legal here to sell meat from your ranch, but it is legal to raise it for the people.

It's the same thing with chickens. I used to raise meat birds, have them processed and fill advanced orders when they were ready. But, legally, all I was supposed to do is raise them for the people and then sell the live birds to the people who were then supposed to go get them processed. Isn't that dumb?

Sounds like a good idea. Just make sure you have all the paperwork. It just might be the way people will get out from under all this bullshit from the government.

K.C.

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for the info on the risks and the mention of the custom raising contracts. It sounds like other people are doing similar things (perhaps for different reasons) and I won't to have to reinvent the wheel.

Reasonable notice makes sense too. Now that I am thinking about it, I would need notice too if the farmer wanted out of the deal.

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of AlbingerSent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:01 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: RE: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

You would need to address the fact of removing the animal. A week or two week notice of removal would make sense. Custom raising contracts common in the dairy industry have 3 month notices except in case of emergency. If you think about it removing an animal at a moment's notice would force the farmer to live day by day for feed inventories, ect.

I also throw caution is that if the farmer boards more than one cow, then your milk would need to be segregated and the farmer could face liability if another cow's milk "potentially" contaminated your cows milk or could be said that it may have is a large liability at stake even though you owned your cow.

As far as ownership costs, due note that costs can be very volatile. If you want a vet to come look at and treat a simple case of ketosis or milk fever, you could be looking at $100. DA's 150+, calving problem 100-150, etc. not including treatments. On a herd basis it tends to average out, but a single cow can be baseline price or volatile expenses.

I seen successful cow arrangements where someone milks another persons milk cows in his herd (commodity milk). The two parties are cow knowledgeable and understand each other. I would personally hate to deal with someone in that situation where the cow is owned by someone not cow smart because if the cow has a bad calving or such and is no longer viable, an unknowledgeable cow owner will likely not understand things like that happen and would proceed to blame the farmer.....

It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt, physically, financially, and/or emotionally. If everyone one understands the other and manage the risks, it could work out beautifully.

[Guest guest]

,

You could also think about getting a whole bunch of you together and

going in on the cow on your own, the same way you would in a cow

share, except it really IS you all, with the receipt and everything

to prove it. We have thought many times about doing this in TN, to

make it affordable for everyone....one family or person can't drink

16 gallons of milk.

Just a thought.

D.

>

> ,

>

> Thanks for the info on the risks and the mention of the custom

raising

> contracts. It sounds like other people are doing similar things

(perhaps for

> different reasons) and I won't to have to reinvent the wheel.

>

> Reasonable notice makes sense too. Now that I am thinking about

it, I would

> need notice too if the farmer wanted out of the deal.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Did this with a goat. They bought the goat, left her here for us to

care for. They got the milk when there was milk. Rather than a monthly

fee they supplied an agreed upon amount of feed and I got the

offspring. They finally got a place with room for the goat, bought

another and are now happily milking their own goats.

Belinda in TN

>

> I'm considering trying to find an arrangement where I own a whole

dairy cow

> and pay a farmer to board, feed and milk it. I believe the Oregon

Department

> of Agriculture is going to go after cow shares. By owning the whole

cow,

> then there's no cow share to challenge. Anybody out there ever done an

> arrangement like this that can give me some advice. Is it even feasible?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I believe that the government will eventually invalidate cow share agreements on the basis that since the owners cannot exercise true rights of ownership, they are not really the owners. If all the holders of a shares of a given cow come to an agreement that they want to move their cow to another farm, would they be able to come get it? Not according to what I am reading here. If they can't, the government will argue that you if you were really the owner(s) you could. And since you can't, it's not really your cow and it's not really your milk. So when the defacto owner, the farmer, transfers the milk to you, they are in effect selling it to you.

That is why I would only be interested in an agreement where I actually bought and had full rights of ownership on on the cow and the only restriction on taking the cow would be reasonable notice to allow the farmer to adjust to the impact on the farmer's operation. Or reasonable compensation for the impact if no notice is given. I'll be collecting my milk from my cow and the government would have to create laws against boarding cows or drinking raw milk to stop me.

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of TinybabeSent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:18 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

That is also something that could be put into the contract, i.e. that the animal shall REMAIN on the farmer's property at his/her address for the life of the cow. This would also protect the farmer's investment.

However, if they have a cow they are willing to sell, with the understanding that they are merely going to board, feed and milk it for the person and at some time the buyer may decide to take the animal, that's OK too.

Sometimes there may be a situation like that would benefit both parties.

K.C.

[Guest guest]

I could be wrong, but I am relatively confident that even the government will not consider this an employer/employee relationship. They have a set of criteria for determining the difference between contract labor and employee labor and to the best of my knowledge, this situation would not meet that criteria. If I hired a guy to go to the farmer's place and do the milking and taking care of the cow, that guy might be an considered an employee.

I don't have a philosophical problem with under the table transactions as a way to counter intrusive government regulations, but I want there to be a clear trail of transactions showing me acting as the true owner. I believe the government will going after cow shares on the premise that the owners don't really own the cows. I want the transaction trail and contract I have with the farmer to remove all doubt that I am the true owner.

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of nelsonSent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:25 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

The one problem I see with this is if you pay someone to do all this for you, you might run into the problem with an employer/employee relationship and all the taxes and insurance that goes with it. Now, if you pay the farmer under the table, that is between the two of you.

just my 2 cents

Steph in Wyoming

[Guest guest]

>

> I believe that the government will eventually invalidate cow share

> agreements on the basis that since the owners cannot exercise true

rights of

> ownership, they are not really the owners. If all the holders of a

shares of

> a given cow come to an agreement that they want to move their cow

to another

> farm, would they be able to come get it? Not according to what I am

reading

> here. If they can't, the government will argue that you if you were

really

> the owner(s) you could. And since you can't, it's not really your

cow and

> it's not really your milk. So when the defacto owner, the farmer,

transfers

> the milk to you, they are in effect selling it to you.

>

> That is why I would only be interested in an agreement where I

actually

> bought and had full rights of ownership on on the cow and the only

> restriction on taking the cow would be reasonable notice to allow

the farmer

> to adjust to the impact on the farmer's operation. Or reasonable

> compensation for the impact if no notice is given. I'll be

collecting my

> milk from my cow and the government would have to create laws

against

> boarding cows or drinking raw milk to stop me.

>

>

>

Go with your farmer to a dairy auction or purebred sale and let him

pick one for you to bid on. Your receipt will come from a total

disinterested third party, you'll probably get papers and it won't

look like a too-cozy relationship at all. Totally arms length that

way and the farmer might be really happy if he gets to keep calves

and he thinks the bloodline is an improvement.

Up front investment is quite large this way. That and the volume of

milk from a modern cow is probably what led to the share idea.

[Guest guest]

K.C.

You anticipated one of my questions already. I am completely ignorant about cows. All I know, I learned from this list. For example, I didn't know a cow needed to calve every year to keep producing milk. Anyway, the question you answered is how much milk a cow might produce. I was sure it was more than I could drink, but is way more than I anticipated, and as I don't want to get into hot water for selling raw milk directly to consumers myself, I would love an arrangement where I could barter with the farmer using the excess milk as part of the payment for the arrangement. I of course want to be sure that what the farmer does with the milk from that point doesn't expose me to unwanted liability.

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of TinybabeSent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:32 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

I don't mind. I'm only suggesting what I would want to do if I was approached or had that in mind.

Actually, I think this is a good thing for both the consumer (who has the extra money to do this) and the farmer who wants to share the cow's milk.

I would also make sure you have something in the contract for the amount of milk you get and if any goes to the farmer in exchange for some of the board, feed, etc.

I don't know how much milk you would need per week, but even Margie, with one milking per day at this time, gives me about 16 gallons of milk per week. So, if you are talking a full sized Jersey, you could be talking about something close to 30-40 gallons a week with two milkings a day. That's a lot of milk. I would think that an agreement could come into play for that as well.

K.C.

[Guest guest]

There is a misunderstanding here. I am not wanting to own the cow on paper. I actually want to own the cow.

Okay that is a whole different thing but and this is a huge but on our farm would be the issue of where the animal originally came from. If it was one of ours and I just had too many then great. But if you were to have to find a cow and bring it to a farm to board like horse owners do then that is different. I don't allow anything on here unless I,and only I, have the last say on where it came from. That even includes my husband which is by no means a worse farmer than I but he will tell anyone that I have researched a whole lot more about things than he has and I am more observant. Now I have refused several people that have wanted me to do just that because I didn't trust that the herd of goats didn't have CL or the cows didn't have e's and our vet is very concerned about a wide array of pathogens that could bring scours to our farm. Now on the positive I could see this working very well if a farmer had too many dairy animals and instead of selling them to outsiders sold them to boarders. You would have to come up with breeding policies etc but it is a good idea. You just might get a bit too much milk for one family though but you could always learn how to make cheese etc.

Debbie ChikouskyManitoba, Canadagdchik@...http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/

[Guest guest]

Hi ;

Since a cow might be too much milk, how about a goat? The goat would cost far less to purchase and keep. A good goat will give upward of 1.5 gallons a day during peak and average about a gallon per day. I you lived close to me I would be more than willing to do this with you.

Carmen

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ]On Behalf Of C. CoombesSent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 3:42 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: RE: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

K.C.

You anticipated one of my questions already. I am completely ignorant about cows. All I know, I learned from this list. For example, I didn't know a cow needed to calve every year to keep producing milk. Anyway, the question you answered is how much milk a cow might produce. I was sure it was more than I could drink, but is way more than I anticipated, and as I don't want to get into hot water for selling raw milk directly to consumers myself, I would love an arrangement where I could barter with the farmer using the excess milk as part of the payment for the arrangement. I of course want to be sure that what the farmer does with the milk from that point doesn't expose me to unwanted liability.

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of TinybabeSent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 2:32 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

I don't mind. I'm only suggesting what I would want to do if I was approached or had that in mind.

Actually, I think this is a good thing for both the consumer (who has the extra money to do this) and the farmer who wants to share the cow's milk.

I would also make sure you have something in the contract for the amount of milk you get and if any goes to the farmer in exchange for some of the board, feed, etc.

I don't know how much milk you would need per week, but even Margie, with one milking per day at this time, gives me about 16 gallons of milk per week. So, if you are talking a full sized Jersey, you could be talking about something close to 30-40 gallons a week with two milkings a day. That's a lot of milk. I would think that an agreement could come into play for that as well.

K.C.

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

I would have no problem with that. By protecting your animals the way you do, it would increase my confidence in buying an animal from you and give me more peace of mind knowing that my animal, by being in a very carefully protected herd, would be protected too.

I only hope I would be lucky enough to find a farmer nearby as picky as you.

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of & Debbie ChikouskySent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 3:49 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

There is a misunderstanding here. I am not wanting to own the cow on paper. I actually want to own the cow.

Okay that is a whole different thing but and this is a huge but on our farm would be the issue of where the animal originally came from. If it was one of ours and I just had too many then great. But if you were to have to find a cow and bring it to a farm to board like horse owners do then that is different. I don't allow anything on here unless I,and only I, have the last say on where it came from. That even includes my husband which is by no means a worse farmer than I but he will tell anyone that I have researched a whole lot more about things than he has and I am more observant. Now I have refused several people that have wanted me to do just that because I didn't trust that the herd of goats didn't have CL or the cows didn't have e's and our vet is very concerned about a wide array of pathogens that could bring scours to our farm. Now on the positive I could see this working very well if a farmer had too many dairy animals and instead of selling them to outsiders sold them to boarders. You would have to come up with breeding policies etc but it is a good idea. You just might get a bit too much milk for one family though but you could always learn how to make cheese etc.

Debbie ChikouskyManitoba, Canadagdchik@...http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/

[Guest guest]

Carmen,

Now that I know (having just learned) how much milk a cow produces, a goat might make a lot more sense than a cow. Thanks for the excellent suggestion.

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Iroquois-kc Alpines/Lucky-Hook RanchSent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:24 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: RE: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

Hi ;

Since a cow might be too much milk, how about a goat? The goat would cost far less to purchase and keep. A good goat will give upward of 1.5 gallons a day during peak and average about a gallon per day. I you lived close to me I would be more than willing to do this with you.

Carmen

[Guest guest]

Somehow this got re-posted. Maybe it was my mistake. If so, my apologies.

-----Original Message-----From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of C. CoombesSent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 11:38 AMTo: RawDairy Subject: RE: True Cow Ownership vs. Cow Shares

Debbie,

There is a misunderstanding here ...

[Guest guest]

K.C.,

>>>I was laughing because I could just invision this man's

kitchen full of refrigerators set to 55 degrees loaded with tons

of cheese and then he would have to move out or get a trailor to

put on the property for the excess.<<<

Very funny imagery.

So, can a person set their fridge to 55°F and make it stay

constant? I thought I saw something at cheesemaking.com that was

some little device, cost under $100 and I got the impression it

could fix the fridge at a set temp.

Thanks,

Starlene

[Guest guest]

What I have to question about this though is that shareholders in a company that do not hold more than 50% cannot make these kind of decisions either yet it still entitles them to income etc as per their shareholder agreements. It is very common for a person to hold onto the controlling share when they take on investors so why isn't this being banned?

Debbie ChikouskyManitoba, Canadagdchik@...http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/