Re: Extraordinary Swallow Study of an infant w/ PTT and several webs

[Guest guest]

Hello all! As the mama of two tt kiddos, thought I'd pipe up here.

I hear a lot of " I can't believe that mom or this mom won't get her baby's

tongue clipped. " . I thought I'd share our experience with tongue ties.

Both children have pp tongue ties - my oldest struggled w bfing (mostly supply)

and speech. Her tt went undiagnosed until a speech pathologist dx'ed when she

was 3. What an amazing moment, to discover what caused so many of our issues!

Fast forward to a few days before my son was born. I swore that, if his tongue

was tied, we would clip. Then my beautiful, perfect son was born. And was tt.

But we had had a beautiful home birth, and I was so, so attached - I didn't want

to harm a hair on his head, let alone clip off a part of his perfect body! So I

worked and worked with another IBCLC to try to get him off the ground. Only

after it became clear that we really needed to get it clipped for him to

successfully breastfeed did I agree to the procedure.

This is not to say that I don't support frenotomies - I often recommend them!

Or that they don't help - our breastfeeding relationship was preserved thanks to

the clip. But just to say that - even when you are knowledgeable and committed

- it is hard to turn over your tiny baby for a medical procedure that might

cause them pain. I think that, ironically, if we've done our job right and

promoted strong biological attachment through an uninterrupted birth experience,

it can make the process more challenging.

Add to the overall mix someone not fully committed to bfing, or fully informed

about the procedure, and it gets even trickier!

Warmly,

Jeanette

Jeanette McCulloch, IBCLC

La Leche League Leader, Ithaca, NY

[Guest guest]

I kind of dread stepping into this one, but I will take the risk--knowing you

have all run into people who simply do not want information for whatever reason.

A former client of mine (also an RN) who follows this mother's page saw how

obvious it was that this baby needed clipping and mom had never mentioned that

anyone had ever properly evaluated the tie or suggested it to her. She posted on

my Holistic Lactation FB page, asking folks to comment and offer their stories

in hopes of informing and encouraging the blogger to do so herself. The client

sent me a private message and asked me to post as an LC.

I will admit that I did not want to post at all when I read the blogger's

history. All of my red flags went up about this blogger. She is obviously very

smart, and a homebirth mother, yet she had immersed herself in a highly

medicalized approach to this feeding problem. It felt odd to me.

I have certainly seen moms become identified with the drama of their situations

before and even attach to a " martyr " complex that can come with all the public

stroking they get for being super, amazing, more than human mothers. To be

honest, that is what this felt like to me.

But, I very stupidly posted, bc I was concerned that other moms with babies with

very obvious TTs would come away thinking there was no solution but this

invasive and medicalized and, IMO-orally damaging intervention (for which I do

not blame moms--I blame uneducated providers).

It was a nightmare immediately. An LLLL also posted at the same time that I did,

who had traveled from Canada with my support to see Larry in Albany after 4

months of being told her baby had no TT. She tried to be supportive. As did

several other moms who read the post on my FB page.

The blogger was instantly defensive and vicious, as were her readers. They

personally attacked all of us, making the entire interaction about something it

had nothing to do with. Honestly, it felt like Lord of the Flies. She called us

names, said we are all wealthy and privileged and arrogant and self-righteous

and it just got uglier from there. Mostly, she attacked me.

She claims to be an LLLL herself--which IMO means she should be censured for her

actions--bc she is implying that she is giving accurate info (as an LLLL). She

gave a lot of damaging misinformation and would not acknowledge that anything

any of us said was correct (although now she pretends she always knew the things

she argued against).

Like that all PTTs MUST be done under GA. That laser is ONLY used for anterior

ties.

Honestly, I have never experienced anything like this in my life.

I actually deleted all of my posts--but if you feel inclined, you can still read

the name-calling and insults, although I cannot say it would make me happy that

you do so.

The only thing that gave me some perspective was when someone who works with

kids with autism posted on her page offering her some ideas about helping her 8

year old autistic daughter. The blogger snapped back something like " That's the

difference between " people who work with kids with autism " and parents with kids

with autism " . She was rude as hell.

It is clear no one dare disagree with her and so they don't. And when you know

someone is like that, and you are a weak person, you are likely to jump to their

defense, no matter what they do, bc it puts your out of the line of fire.

(Actually one person really called her out for her actions, who apparently has

been following her, but did it anon).

Recently, I have seen similar viciousness on blogs from midwives--calling each

other bitches and being absolutely disgusting to each other, while readers rush

in to stroke them, rather than call them on their nastiness. Or be trashed

themselves. It's one sure way to discourage dissent.

I truly understand not wanting to do any unnecessary intervention. But this baby

is being bottle-fed, which is usually an unnecessary intervention and far from

harmless. And she has other issues like reflux and is being medicated for it,

when revising the TT might well solve it, as it so often does.

When my perfect little granddaughter was born at home, the last thing I wanted

to see was that TT. But when her mom could not nurse w/o pain, even though I

(and a chiropractor) were able tweak things enough to keep her at breast for a

week before their appt, I knew it was an intervention that simply needed to

happen. But, it was not w/o pain for me to recommend it, nor for her parents to

choose to do it.

I cannot know what is in any person's heart, and as a mom I will assume she is

doing the best she can. But, if you claim any kind of expert position, you have

an obligation to be sure that you only provide accurate information and that is

not happening in this case and the continued public argument that there is no

need for clipping this baby does a great deal of harm to others.

But at this point--who would dare question her?

Tow, IBCLC

> >

> > Hello all! As the mama of two tt kiddos, thought I'd pipe up here.

> >

> > I hear a lot of " I can't believe that mom or this mom won't get her baby's

tongue clipped. " . I thought I'd share our experience with tongue ties.

> >

> > Both children have pp tongue ties - my oldest struggled w bfing (mostly

supply) and speech. Her tt went undiagnosed until a speech pathologist dx'ed

when she was 3. What an amazing moment, to discover what caused so many of our

issues!

> >

> > Fast forward to a few days before my son was born. I swore that, if his

tongue was tied, we would clip. Then my beautiful, perfect son was born. And

was tt. But we had had a beautiful home birth, and I was so, so attached - I

didn't want to harm a hair on his head, let alone clip off a part of his perfect

body! So I worked and worked with another IBCLC to try to get him off the

ground. Only after it became clear that we really needed to get it clipped for

him to successfully breastfeed did I agree to the procedure.

> >

> > This is not to say that I don't support frenotomies - I often recommend

them! Or that they don't help - our breastfeeding relationship was preserved

thanks to the clip. But just to say that - even when you are knowledgeable and

committed - it is hard to turn over your tiny baby for a medical procedure that

might cause them pain. I think that, ironically, if we've done our job right

and promoted strong biological attachment through an uninterrupted birth

experience, it can make the process more challenging.

> >

> > Add to the overall mix someone not fully committed to bfing, or fully

informed about the procedure, and it gets even trickier!

> >

> > Warmly,

> > Jeanette

> >

> >

> > Jeanette McCulloch, IBCLC

> > La Leche League Leader, Ithaca, NY

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow . It sounds like that was a tough situation. I'm a LLLL and I worry

about this blogger saying she's a Leader. If she is indeed a Leader someone

would need to report her for her to be censured. Disagreeing with someone is

one thing but if she was nasty about it that crosses the line. Does she say she

is a Leader in her blog or did she mention it in the comments? There's a fine

line and unfortunately blogs seem to get a lot of people in trouble.

If she was passing her personal opinions off as an " official " way to deal with

the issue she crossed the line. If she is simply relating what she's going

through it might be different. I guess I would have to see it. But if you wish

you can send the link to LLLI (contact info is on their website) and ask them to

take a look at it if it concerns you. If LLLI doesn't hear about it sometimes

things are allowed to happen that shouldn't.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Re: Extraordinary Swallow Study of an infant w/ PTT and

several webs

I kind of dread stepping into this one, but I will take the risk--knowing you

have all run into people who simply do not want information for whatever reason.

A former client of mine (also an RN) who follows this mother's page saw how

obvious it was that this baby needed clipping and mom had never mentioned that

anyone had ever properly evaluated the tie or suggested it to her. She posted on

my Holistic Lactation FB page, asking folks to comment and offer their stories

in hopes of informing and encouraging the blogger to do so herself. The client

sent me a private message and asked me to post as an LC.

I will admit that I did not want to post at all when I read the blogger's

history. All of my red flags went up about this blogger. She is obviously very

smart, and a homebirth mother, yet she had immersed herself in a highly

medicalized approach to this feeding problem. It felt odd to me.

I have certainly seen moms become identified with the drama of their situations

before and even attach to a " martyr " complex that can come with all the public

stroking they get for being super, amazing, more than human mothers. To be

honest, that is what this felt like to me.

But, I very stupidly posted, bc I was concerned that other moms with babies with

very obvious TTs would come away thinking there was no solution but this

invasive and medicalized and, IMO-orally damaging intervention (for which I do

not blame moms--I blame uneducated providers).

It was a nightmare immediately. An LLLL also posted at the same time that I did,

who had traveled from Canada with my support to see Larry in Albany after 4

months of being told her baby had no TT. She tried to be supportive. As did

several other moms who read the post on my FB page.

The blogger was instantly defensive and vicious, as were her readers. They

personally attacked all of us, making the entire interaction about something it

had nothing to do with. Honestly, it felt like Lord of the Flies. She called us

names, said we are all wealthy and privileged and arrogant and self-righteous

and it just got uglier from there. Mostly, she attacked me.

She claims to be an LLLL herself--which IMO means she should be censured for her

actions--bc she is implying that she is giving accurate info (as an LLLL). She

gave a lot of damaging misinformation and would not acknowledge that anything

any of us said was correct (although now she pretends she always knew the things

she argued against).

Like that all PTTs MUST be done under GA. That laser is ONLY used for anterior

ties.

Honestly, I have never experienced anything like this in my life.

I actually deleted all of my posts--but if you feel inclined, you can still read

the name-calling and insults, although I cannot say it would make me happy that

you do so.

The only thing that gave me some perspective was when someone who works with

kids with autism posted on her page offering her some ideas about helping her 8

year old autistic daughter. The blogger snapped back something like " That's the

difference between " people who work with kids with autism " and parents with kids

with autism " . She was rude as hell.

It is clear no one dare disagree with her and so they don't. And when you know

someone is like that, and you are a weak person, you are likely to jump to their

defense, no matter what they do, bc it puts your out of the line of fire.

(Actually one person really called her out for her actions, who apparently has

been following her, but did it anon).

Recently, I have seen similar viciousness on blogs from midwives--calling each

other bitches and being absolutely disgusting to each other, while readers rush

in to stroke them, rather than call them on their nastiness. Or be trashed

themselves. It's one sure way to discourage dissent.

I truly understand not wanting to do any unnecessary intervention. But this baby

is being bottle-fed, which is usually an unnecessary intervention and far from

harmless. And she has other issues like reflux and is being medicated for it,

when revising the TT might well solve it, as it so often does.

When my perfect little granddaughter was born at home, the last thing I wanted

to see was that TT. But when her mom could not nurse w/o pain, even though I

(and a chiropractor) were able tweak things enough to keep her at breast for a

week before their appt, I knew it was an intervention that simply needed to

happen. But, it was not w/o pain for me to recommend it, nor for her parents to

choose to do it.

I cannot know what is in any person's heart, and as a mom I will assume she is

doing the best she can. But, if you claim any kind of expert position, you have

an obligation to be sure that you only provide accurate information and that is

not happening in this case and the continued public argument that there is no

need for clipping this baby does a great deal of harm to others.

But at this point--who would dare question her?

Tow, IBCLC

> >

> > Hello all! As the mama of two tt kiddos, thought I'd pipe up here.

> >

> > I hear a lot of " I can't believe that mom or this mom won't get her baby's

tongue clipped. " . I thought I'd share our experience with tongue ties.

> >

> > Both children have pp tongue ties - my oldest struggled w bfing (mostly

supply) and speech. Her tt went undiagnosed until a speech pathologist dx'ed

when she was 3. What an amazing moment, to discover what caused so many of our

issues!

> >

> > Fast forward to a few days before my son was born. I swore that, if his

tongue was tied, we would clip. Then my beautiful, perfect son was born. And

was tt. But we had had a beautiful home birth, and I was so, so attached - I

didn't want to harm a hair on his head, let alone clip off a part of his perfect

body! So I worked and worked with another IBCLC to try to get him off the

ground. Only after it became clear that we really needed to get it clipped for

him to successfully breastfeed did I agree to the procedure.

> >

> > This is not to say that I don't support frenotomies - I often recommend

them! Or that they don't help - our breastfeeding relationship was preserved

thanks to the clip. But just to say that - even when you are knowledgeable and

committed - it is hard to turn over your tiny baby for a medical procedure that

might cause them pain. I think that, ironically, if we've done our job right

and promoted strong biological attachment through an uninterrupted birth

experience, it can make the process more challenging.

> >

> > Add to the overall mix someone not fully committed to bfing, or fully

informed about the procedure, and it gets even trickier!

> >

> > Warmly,

> > Jeanette

> >

> >

> > Jeanette McCulloch, IBCLC

> > La Leche League Leader, Ithaca, NY

> >

>

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

No, in her comments she pulled out the Leader card to give her credability in

claiming her opinions were fact. I was a Leader for 17 years and was very wary

of what I ever said as such. By way of not addressing the issues she focused on

personal attacks instead. That is what concerned me so much bc people would

assume that gave her credibility and trust her statements. I have caught dozens

of TTs from posts on the web and I have seen so many miserable mothers who were

led to believe for months or even years their babies were not TTd. IMO she has

contributed to that happening for many more babies

Tow IBCLC

> > >

> > > Hello all! As the mama of two tt kiddos, thought I'd pipe up here.

> > >

> > > I hear a lot of " I can't believe that mom or this mom won't get her baby's

tongue clipped. " . I thought I'd share our experience with tongue ties.

> > >

> > > Both children have pp tongue ties - my oldest struggled w bfing (mostly

supply) and speech. Her tt went undiagnosed until a speech pathologist dx'ed

when she was 3. What an amazing moment, to discover what caused so many of our

issues!

> > >

> > > Fast forward to a few days before my son was born. I swore that, if his

tongue was tied, we would clip. Then my beautiful, perfect son was born. And

was tt. But we had had a beautiful home birth, and I was so, so attached - I

didn't want to harm a hair on his head, let alone clip off a part of his perfect

body! So I worked and worked with another IBCLC to try to get him off the

ground. Only after it became clear that we really needed to get it clipped for

him to successfully breastfeed did I agree to the procedure.

> > >

> > > This is not to say that I don't support frenotomies - I often recommend

them! Or that they don't help - our breastfeeding relationship was preserved

thanks to the clip. But just to say that - even when you are knowledgeable and

committed - it is hard to turn over your tiny baby for a medical procedure that

might cause them pain. I think that, ironically, if we've done our job right

and promoted strong biological attachment through an uninterrupted birth

experience, it can make the process more challenging.

> > >

> > > Add to the overall mix someone not fully committed to bfing, or fully

informed about the procedure, and it gets even trickier!

> > >

> > > Warmly,

> > > Jeanette

> > >

> > >

> > > Jeanette McCulloch, IBCLC

> > > La Leche League Leader, Ithaca, NY

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

That makes me very sad. I got extra training on my own to understand and

diagnose TT. All the Leaders I know understand it's a real problem and we do

everything we can to get those mothers help.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Re: Extraordinary Swallow Study of an infant w/ PTT and

several webs

No, in her comments she pulled out the Leader card to give her credability in

claiming her opinions were fact. I was a Leader for 17 years and was very wary

of what I ever said as such. By way of not addressing the issues she focused on

personal attacks instead. That is what concerned me so much bc people would

assume that gave her credibility and trust her statements. I have caught dozens

of TTs from posts on the web and I have seen so many miserable mothers who were

led to believe for months or even years their babies were not TTd. IMO she has

contributed to that happening for many more babies

Tow IBCLC

> > >

> > > Hello all! As the mama of two tt kiddos, thought I'd pipe up here.

> > >

> > > I hear a lot of " I can't believe that mom or this mom won't get her baby's

tongue clipped. " . I thought I'd share our experience with tongue ties.

> > >

> > > Both children have pp tongue ties - my oldest struggled w bfing (mostly

supply) and speech. Her tt went undiagnosed until a speech pathologist dx'ed

when she was 3. What an amazing moment, to discover what caused so many of our

issues!

> > >

> > > Fast forward to a few days before my son was born. I swore that, if his

tongue was tied, we would clip. Then my beautiful, perfect son was born. And

was tt. But we had had a beautiful home birth, and I was so, so attached - I

didn't want to harm a hair on his head, let alone clip off a part of his perfect

body! So I worked and worked with another IBCLC to try to get him off the

ground. Only after it became clear that we really needed to get it clipped for

him to successfully breastfeed did I agree to the procedure.

> > >

> > > This is not to say that I don't support frenotomies - I often recommend

them! Or that they don't help - our breastfeeding relationship was preserved

thanks to the clip. But just to say that - even when you are knowledgeable and

committed - it is hard to turn over your tiny baby for a medical procedure that

might cause them pain. I think that, ironically, if we've done our job right

and promoted strong biological attachment through an uninterrupted birth

experience, it can make the process more challenging.

> > >

> > > Add to the overall mix someone not fully committed to bfing, or fully

informed about the procedure, and it gets even trickier!

> > >

> > > Warmly,

> > > Jeanette

> > >

> > >

> > > Jeanette McCulloch, IBCLC

> > > La Leche League Leader, Ithaca, NY

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

this makes me sick to my stomach.... Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.comwww.facebook.com/thesecond9months.--- Subject: Re: Extraordinary Swallow Study of an infant w/ PTT and several websTo:

Date: Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 8:57 PM

No, in her comments she pulled out the Leader card to give her credability in claiming her opinions were fact. I was a Leader for 17 years and was very wary of what I ever said as such. By way of not addressing the issues she focused on personal attacks instead. That is what concerned me so much bc people would assume that gave her credibility and trust her statements. I have caught dozens of TTs from posts on the web and I have seen so many miserable mothers who were led to believe for months or even years their babies were not TTd. IMO she has contributed to that happening for many more babies

Tow IBCLC

> > >

> > > Hello all! As the mama of two tt kiddos, thought I'd pipe up here.

> > >

> > > I hear a lot of "I can't believe that mom or this mom won't get her baby's tongue clipped.". I thought I'd share our experience with tongue ties.

> > >

> > > Both children have pp tongue ties - my oldest struggled w bfing (mostly supply) and speech. Her tt went undiagnosed until a speech pathologist dx'ed when she was 3. What an amazing moment, to discover what caused so many of our issues!

> > >

> > > Fast forward to a few days before my son was born. I swore that, if his tongue was tied, we would clip. Then my beautiful, perfect son was born. And was tt. But we had had a beautiful home birth, and I was so, so attached - I didn't want to harm a hair on his head, let alone clip off a part of his perfect body! So I worked and worked with another IBCLC to try to get him off the ground. Only after it became clear that we really needed to get it clipped for him to successfully breastfeed did I agree to the procedure.

> > >

> > > This is not to say that I don't support frenotomies - I often recommend them! Or that they don't help - our breastfeeding relationship was preserved thanks to the clip. But just to say that - even when you are knowledgeable and committed - it is hard to turn over your tiny baby for a medical procedure that might cause them pain. I think that, ironically, if we've done our job right and promoted strong biological attachment through an uninterrupted birth experience, it can make the process more challenging.

> > >

> > > Add to the overall mix someone not fully committed to bfing, or fully informed about the procedure, and it gets even trickier!

> > >

> > > Warmly,

> > > Jeanette

> > >

> > >

> > > Jeanette McCulloch, IBCLC

> > > La Leche League Leader, Ithaca, NY

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>