Re: BN DVD

[Guest guest]

Dear Dee,I use BN quite a lot and most of the time it works.  However, sometimes it just does not.  For example, today, I tried BN with a 5 day old infant with a fairly receding chin.  It did not work.  He kept overshooting the breast and became more and more irritable. We went back to a regular cross-cradle with “follow me mum†approach of asymmetrical latch and that worked. So BN is not a “fit-all†intervention.  But it’s one more tool in our BF toolbox. I think if you keep trying it, you will one day have an occasion where it will work. Keep us posted. Ghislaine Reid, BA (Translation 1981), LLL (1990), IBCLC(2002)Montreal, Quebec, Canada De : [mailto: ] De la part de Dee KassingEnvoyé : 14 juin 2011 01:15À : Objet : RE: Re: BN DVD OK, I tried laid-back nursing again tonight. Had a baby who has a posterior tongue tie and mom with flat/short nipples/reduction surgery. Baby was having a lot of trouble latching. Adding a nipple shield didn't help. But baby just kept trying. Was not upset. The other times I have tried, baby was upset, so I thought that was the problem. We pushed the recliner back so baby could be held against mother by gravity. Baby's feet were on mother's leg and baby could push herself around well. She kept overshooting the nipple. *Then* she got upset. We finally went back to mom sitting upright and using cradle hold, gave baby a few more attempts (she kept putting her mouth against the breast but " missing " , not connecting) and then baby finally latched. Once again, BN did not work in my office. I really don't get it. I have to say, I don't understand the allure of this system of working. Dee Kassing Dear and Dee,I agree with both of you that BN should not be presented as a fix-all method to breastfeeding issues. However, in some ways, I also disagree with you as this approach to positioning the infant and the posture taken by the mother almost always makes an improvement to painful latch and/or non-latching (breast refusing) infants. The difference I see with this approach is that it takes in consideration the infant’s neonatal primitive reflexes and permits the infant to use these to be efficient in the right habitat – his mother’s body. It also lets the mother be more intuitive. Most other approaches that we touted as “the†only way to position an infant at the breast in the past did not take into account any of these neonatal primitive reflexes. It did exactly the contrary thus portraying the infant as “reluctant†or “aggressive non-nurser†(the enemy to control) and did not help the mother feeling positive about her infant’s competence nor hers. It also allows us, the IBCLC, to take a more hands-off approach. It is so much more empowering for the mother... and in the end much more satisfactory for the IBCLC. My 2-cents... Have a great day. Ghislaine Reid, BA (Translation 1981), LLL (1990), IBCLC(2002)Montreal, Quebec, Canada

[Guest guest]

Yes, Dee, I have to agree, some babies need a little more direction. Today I had 2 clients with latching/sore nipple issues. 1st mom I instructed in a cross cradle hold with a brest friend pillow and baby nursed better when mom support breast and slightly shaped it the entire feeding (baby had low tone) 2nd mom, I instructed to lay back on the couch and baby did much better than he ever had before. She had to micro manage just a bit b/c baby tended to over shoot nipple. But you know, moms are supposed to help! We're moms after all. any way both moms were happy and comfortable and babies nursed well. I've become much more comfortable trying different things for different situations. That's the beauty of this work! Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation

Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.comBreastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/--- Subject: RE: Re: BN DVDTo: Date: Tuesday, June 14, 2011, 7:47 PM

Dear Dee,I use BN quite a lot and most of the time it works. However, sometimes it just does not. For example, today, I tried BN with a 5 day old infant with a fairly receding chin. It did not work. He kept overshooting the breast and became more and more irritable. We went back to a regular cross-cradle with “follow me mum†approach of asymmetrical latch and that worked. So BN is not a “fit-all†intervention. But it’s one more tool in our BF toolbox. I think if you keep trying it, you will one day have an occasion where it will work. Keep us posted. Ghislaine Reid, BA (Translation 1981), LLL (1990), IBCLC(2002)Montreal, Quebec,

Canada De : [mailto: ] De la part de Dee KassingEnvoyé : 14 juin 2011 01:15À : Objet : RE: Re: BN DVD OK, I tried laid-back nursing again tonight. Had a baby who has a posterior tongue tie and mom with flat/short nipples/reduction surgery. Baby was having a lot of trouble latching. Adding a nipple shield didn't help. But baby just kept trying. Was not upset. The other times I have tried, baby was upset, so I thought that was the problem. We pushed the recliner back so baby could be held against mother by gravity. Baby's feet were on mother's leg and baby could push herself around well. She kept overshooting the nipple. *Then* she got upset. We finally went back to mom sitting upright and using cradle hold, gave baby a few more attempts (she kept putting her mouth against the breast but "missing", not connecting) and then baby finally latched. Once again, BN did not work in my office. I really

don't get it. I have to say, I don't understand the allure of this system of working. Dee Kassing Dear and Dee,I agree with both of you that BN should not be presented as a fix-all method to breastfeeding issues.

However, in some ways, I also disagree with you as this approach to positioning the infant and the posture taken by the mother almost always makes an improvement to painful latch and/or non-latching (breast refusing) infants. The difference I see with this approach is that it takes in consideration the infant’s neonatal primitive reflexes and permits the infant to use these to be efficient in the right habitat – his mother’s body. It also lets the mother be more intuitive. Most

other approaches that we touted as “the†only way to position an infant at the breast in the past did not take into account any of these neonatal primitive reflexes. It did exactly the contrary thus portraying the infant as “reluctant†or “aggressive non-nurser†(the enemy to control) and did not help the mother feeling positive about her infant’s competence nor hers. It also allows us, the IBCLC, to take a more hands-off approach. It is so much more empowering for the mother... and in the end much more satisfactory for the IBCLC. My 2-cents... Have a great day. Ghislaine Reid, BA (Translation 1981), LLL (1990), IBCLC(2002)Montreal, Quebec, Canada

[Guest guest]

Thanks for these ideas, Nikki. A little like when a mother has a heart-to-heart with a baby on a nursing strike, except we're allowing the baby to do the "discussing". I like the idea of it.

Dee

Subject: Re: BN DVDTo: Date: Tuesday, June 14, 2011, 6:07 AM

Hello Dee:How about talking to a mom (before the baby is put on her chest) about the possibility that her baby might want to express feelings about what hasn't been going well at breast?Sometimes, when babies tell their stories, the energy clears and then breastfeeding can be recovered. (It is a baby SER.)The difference between baby overwhelm and a SER is that a baby in a SER will start to root, then have an emotional release, and then rest. This triad of behaviors may repeat; I've seen babies do as many as 5 or 6. Even one major release can move the dyad onto a different road.Midwife the mom to interact with her baby: "WHat are you telling me?" "I am so sorry to hear that you are so upset."Getting the anger out is a good thing.warmly,Nikki>> Hello, Ghislaine.>    I was at a conference a week and a half ago, and I explained that I have been trying laid-back nursing in my office but it has not once worked there, in spite of the fact that I have a nice recliner that moms can easily lean back in. I went to the session on BN, talked to others, even was fortunate enough to have a mother demonstrate up in one of the hotel rooms with her 4-week-old baby. But the difference I see is that the mothers who come to me have very difficult situations. Almost all the mothers in my office have talked to or been seen by at least 3 other bf helpers (sometimes other IBCLCs) before they get to me. I've often got babies who are MAD at the breast. Putting them in laid-back, even in skin-to-skin, just makes them

terribly angry, which of course upsets the mother. Baby then senses mother's distress and things just escalate from there.

[Guest guest]

But we weren't try to *make* the baby latch, Nikki. Baby was calm but having difficulty connecting and we thought if mom and baby moved into a different position, it might make it easier for the baby to figure it out. Mother was patient and so was I. The baby actually looked well supported, like in the videos I've seen and like the baby I watched in the hotel room at the recent conference. *Our* intent (mom and I) was to *let* baby do it, not force baby to do it. We really were trying to make her more comfortable. But the *baby* got upset. I feel like I understand the concepts and the type of support baby needs for this system, but I just don't see it working.

Dee

Subject: Re: BN DVDTo: Date: Tuesday, June 14, 2011, 6:09 AM

Hi Dee:If one thinks of BN as a something to do to make a baby latch, that intention may not lead to success. What about thinking of BN as a technique to create environment, and supporting the baby to do what it can?warmly,Nikki>> OK, I tried laid-back nursing again tonight. Had a baby who has a posterior tongue tie and mom with flat/short nipples/reduction surgery. Baby was having a lot of trouble latching. Adding a nipple shield didn't help. But baby just kept trying. Was not upset. The other times I have tried, baby was upset, so I thought that was the problem. We pushed the recliner back so baby could be held against

mother by gravity. Baby's feet were on mother's leg and baby could push herself around well. She kept overshooting the nipple. *Then* she got upset. We finally went back to mom sitting upright and using cradle hold, gave baby a few more attempts (she kept putting her mouth against the breast but "missing", not connecting) and then baby finally latched. Once again, BN did not work in my office. I really don't get it. I have to say, I don't understand the allure of this system of working.>     Dee Kassing>

[Guest guest]

Dee,Something similar happened to me with a newborn (36 hours of age).  It turned out that the baby had a broken collar bone and nothing had been noticed previously. No notes in the baby’s file about any birth injury. We only found out a few days later when the baby was seen at a outpatient breastfeeding clinic and it was obvious that one arm was not moving naturally to center of body. Could it be the case with this infant ? Ghislaine De : [mailto: ] De la part de Dee KassingEnvoyé : 15 juin 2011 00:20À : Objet : Re: Re: BN DVD But we weren't try to *make* the baby latch, Nikki. Baby was calm but having difficulty connecting and we thought if mom and baby moved into a different position, it might make it easier for the baby to figure it out. Mother was patient and so was I. The baby actually looked well supported, like in the videos I've seen and like the baby I watched in the hotel room at the recent conference. *Our* intent (mom and I) was to *let* baby do it, not force baby to do it. We really were trying to make her more comfortable. But the *baby* got upset. I feel like I understand the concepts and the type of support baby needs for this system, but I just don't see it working. DeeSubject: Re: BN DVDTo: Date: Tuesday, June 14, 2011, 6:09 AM Hi Dee:If one thinks of BN as a something to do to make a baby latch, that intention may not lead to success. What about thinking of BN as a technique to create environment, and supporting the baby to do what it can?warmly,Nikki>> OK, I tried laid-back nursing again tonight. Had a baby who has a posterior tongue tie and mom with flat/short nipples/reduction surgery. Baby was having a lot of trouble latching. Adding a nipple shield didn't help. But baby just kept trying. Was not upset. The other times I have tried, baby was upset, so I thought that was the problem. We pushed the recliner back so baby could be held against mother by gravity. Baby's feet were on mother's leg and baby could push herself around well. She kept overshooting the nipple. *Then* she got upset. We finally went back to mom sitting upright and using cradle hold, gave baby a few more attempts (she kept putting her mouth against the breast but " missing " , not connecting) and then baby finally latched. Once again, BN did not work in my office. I really don't get it. I have to say, I don't understand the allure of this system of working.>     Dee Kassing>