Re: BN DVD

[Guest guest]

i could see how it might be useful in a class---but I just let moms experience it and learn from their babies. since it seems to work fine that way, I see know reason for another thing to carry around!I just left a beautiful situation. Baby class 1 tongue tie. mom put him on her bare chest and away he went. latched beautifully and ate till he was full! And he's 9# 5 oz. Such joy to see everything work so well... Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.comBreastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/--- Subject: BN DVDTo: Date: Monday, June 6, 2011, 7:36 PM

I have been thinking about purchasing the biological nurturing video since I use BN with most every family I see. However I am not sure if having the video will be a useful tool or just collect dust on my shelf. For those of you that own the DVD, have you used it much in your practice? Cole

[Guest guest]

I use it for teaching our courses -- aspiring LCs, but not with parents. There is a very short video on her website www.biologicalnurturing.com that is specifically for mothers.

Jan

I have been thinking about purchasing the biological nurturing video since I use BN with most every family I see. However I am not sure if having the video will be a useful tool or just collect dust on my shelf. For those of you that own the DVD, have you used it much in your practice?

Cole

[Guest guest]

She has a new dvd out for parents.  Has anyone seen it?

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the feedback, Jan. Cole

[Guest guest]

My complaint with this DVD, like Smillie's 2007 Baby-Led Breastfeeding

Video, is that they show an older baby and a mom with super-everted, firm

nipples that any baby would find easy to latch. How about the moms with flat

nipples or nipples that are so soft they're basically nonexistent? Seems to

frustrate mom and baby in these cases because mom's not as able to mold the

breast to help baby latch. Just my $.02.

Debbie Gillespie, IBCLC

Tempe, AZ

[Guest guest]

Fabulously well-out, ! And of course as a fellow martial artist who also

learned later in life (my thirties vs my son as a young boy--black belt by 14!),

I love the analogy!!

Tow, IBCLC, France

>

> I watched the short clip and have myself been hesitant to buy a new DVD ever

since i bought the Tina Smilie DVD. I found that DVD to be far too wordy, the

chairs too " clinical " and the information too diffuse for use with parents. I

have found most parents need to have a few key ideas and not a lot of words.

The DVD would have needed serious editing to organize the clips into something

coherent for parents. I know at the time of the Tina Smilie DVD (before Suzanne

Colson) I had already figured out that leaning back worked better for many women

and so therefore, I didn't want to show parents videos women sitting up in

uncomfortable office chairs with a lactation consultant standing over them. At

least Glover showed women in their home environments on couches. And,

if you watch her video closely, the women ARE leaning back a little bit despite

her claims that they are sitting with an " upright back " and a " flat lap " .

>

> We need to keep in mind that Suzanne Colson did her study on a small group of

women. These women were women who worked things out and were able to breastfeed

well. I like this to people who are learning any sport. Many people can learn

to play a sport for recreational purposes without a lot of training. They may

not be perfect, but they can learn to enjoy it. Some people find some sports

incredibly challenging and may need to have each component broken down and

analyzed and practice it repeatedly before they get it. I liken it to my son

and Martial Arts. He is excellent. He started when he was five and never

really thought about what he was doing. He has natural grace and athletic

ability. He only really needs to practice when he learns some complicated new

move. On the other hand, I'm old and slow and all I have going for myself is

persistence and endurance. I NEED each motion broken down. I NEED to practice

them again and again. I NEED different instructors to notice different elements

about how I move. Now I can actually do most of the kicks relatively well, but

I still NEED consistent practice. So, I think we need to keep in mind that

Suzanne Colson's work is great for women who are like my son. It may be pretty

good for many women who are having minor problems. But when we see clients, we

may have some that are like me when I do Martial Arts. For that, I like to

modify the elements from Glover's DVD because parents actually RETAIN a

lot of the information from her DVD and it is easy to modify her approach into

positions that are leaning back.

>

> Best regards,

> E. Burger, MHS, PhD, IBCLC

>

[Guest guest]

I completely agree, it drives me crazy when people cannot identify the that

there is a context where these concepts will work, and there is a context where

it just will not work.

Besides, maybe I said this here before, laying back to BF all the time? Here's

where there is a lack of context, most mothers are certainly not 'sitting down'

to breastfeed all the time. They are cooking, talking on the phone, sleeping,

peeing, playing with the other kids, reading a book, etc. etc. Breastfeeding

doesn't happen in these isolated, pre-calculated moments all the time. You will

never get an argument from me about using this approach, if it is working,

great, happy to have effective options. But speaking of this as if it is THE way

to breastfeed? When I start to hear concepts like this presented this way I

start to tune out.

>

> My complaint with this DVD, like Smillie's 2007 Baby-Led

Breastfeeding Video, is that they show an older baby and a mom with

super-everted, firm nipples that any baby would find easy to latch. How about

the moms with flat nipples or nipples that are so soft they're basically

nonexistent? Seems to frustrate mom and baby in these cases because mom's not

as able to mold the breast to help baby latch. Just my $.02.

>

> Debbie Gillespie, IBCLC

> Tempe, AZ

>

[Guest guest]

Very good point, ! I've had some fabulous successes with laid back

positioning during a consult and this provides Mom with a new option and

hopefully increased comfort. However when I consider where I spent the daylight

hours nursing for 7 years - it was at the playground, in the grocery store, at a

restaurant with friends, LLL meetings and it was the good ole' cradle position

then.

Ellen

Ellen Rubin, MA, IBCLC, LLLL

> >

> > My complaint with this DVD, like Smillie's 2007 Baby-Led

Breastfeeding Video, is that they show an older baby and a mom with

super-everted, firm nipples that any baby would find easy to latch. How about

the moms with flat nipples or nipples that are so soft they're basically

nonexistent? Seems to frustrate mom and baby in these cases because mom's not

as able to mold the breast to help baby latch. Just my $.02.

> >

> > Debbie Gillespie, IBCLC

> > Tempe, AZ

> >

>

[Guest guest]

What I find happens is some LCs never learn anything new...I still hear how an LC grabbed the baby's head and mothers breast and basically used the old " ram " to force the baby to breast.  Even with all we know now and all that is out there about other ways to latch and the importance of not grabbing a baby by the head and shoving! And there are some who latch on to something new and ignore whatever came before and think that is the only way now.  In reality, what works is to see each mother and baby in their own experience, help the mother and baby find what works for them and is comfortable.  I really like home visits for this reason.  I can help them on their couch, in their bed, on the dining room chair, etc.  We can see that lying back is good some places, cross cradle good for some situations, simple cradle others, and often a combination of all of the above. There is 'no' rigth way to latch, on the way that is right for the dyad (or triplet).  I am also often wishing I named what I did long before it had a name! LOL Because really, I don't think I ever sat straight up and fed any of my kids unless I was not at home. Haha.  Who knew that position I took on the couch would someday have a name. Haha.

 

 

Pam MazzellaDiBosco, IBCLC, RLCBirthing & Beyond, Inc.Labor Support and Lactation Consultant Services

[Guest guest]

Thank you all for your feedback but I wanted to make a quick clarification. I wasn’t asking about BN positioning, I was asking about the DVD and using it in practice.I agree that positioning and latch are not a “one size fits all” deal but I was surprised to hear a few of you say that BN “ may be pretty good for many women who are having minor problems” and that you think BN is about “laying back to BF all the time”. I have to disagree. I think the principles on BF are extremely helpful for moms and babies coping with severe issues as well as minor ones and BN can be done sitting on a park bench just as easily as lying on a bed. I don’t look at BN as a particular angle of mother’s body or some hard and fast way to latch/position but rather as a way to help moms and babies be in a position to help them use their instincts, feel stable and secure and let gravity help keep baby in a comfy spot with a wider gape.So, I guess I see BN a little differently and don’t view it as a position for breastfeeding but more of an approach (and maybe philosophy?).I really don’t use any boppies, breast friends, etc any more at all. Occasionally a bed pillow under mom’s arm r a rolled up receiving blanket for her wrist, etc but no pillows for baby. And it works, even for dyads the need practice and extra support. It works because ti enable babies to use their innate skills/reflexes instead of fighting against them (head shoving/arm holding/pushing to latch, shallow gape, etc, etc). However in having this conversation, I think I have decided I do not want the DVD after all since I’d be worried parents would zone in on the dyads on the screen rather than learn with their own baby. So thanks for helping me solidify my decision. Cole

[Guest guest]

Pam, I know what you mean.. especially about naming what we did. and as a LC I've been doing whatever works for a very long time. Including the "asymmetrical latch." I stopped "centering the nipple" years before asymmetry was being discussed at conferences. it just seemed to work better for most babies and especially moms with sore nipples. it made sense to keep the tongue as far away from the nipple as possible. IMO that's what makes a good practitioner--be she LC, Dr. nutritionist, whatever. there is no one right way...today I was on a bed with a mom with raw nipples. I wasn't about to let baby scoot around and possibly latch incorrectly a couple times before getting it right. The mom had to do some micro-managing. But a mom I saw yesterday was complaining of neck and shoulder

pain. we had her lay back on the couch with lots of pillows and let baby find her way...dontcha love it!? Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.comBreastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/--- From: Pam MazzellaDiBosco

Subject: Re: Re: BN DVDTo: Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 6:33 PM

What I find happens is some LCs never learn anything new...I still hear how an LC grabbed the baby's head and mothers breast and basically used the old "ram" to force the baby to breast. Even with all we know now and all that is out there about other ways to latch and the importance of not grabbing a baby by the head and shoving! And there are some who latch on to something new and ignore whatever came before and think that is the only way now. In reality, what works is to see each mother and baby in their own experience, help the mother and baby find what works for them and is comfortable. I really like home visits for this reason. I can help them on their couch, in their bed, on the dining room chair, etc. We can see that lying back is good some places, cross cradle good for some situations, simple cradle others, and often a combination of all of the above. There is 'no' rigth way to latch, on the way

that is right for the dyad (or triplet). I am also often wishing I named what I did long before it had a name! LOL Because really, I don't think I ever sat straight up and fed any of my kids unless I was not at home. Haha. Who knew that position I took on the couch would someday have a name. Haha.

Pam MazzellaDiBosco, IBCLC, RLCBirthing & Beyond, Inc.Labor Support and Lactation Consultant Services

[Guest guest]

I hear you, . It seems that whenever we show a mom a "position" it can get stuck in her head that that is the "correct" way to breastfeed!I show those videos and demonstrate BN with her own baby only so she can see how babies naturally move their bodies. Then they are better equipped to help if necessary. Beebe, M.Ed., IBCLC Lactation Consultant/Postpartum Doula www.second9months.comBreastfeeding Between the Lines: http://second9months.wordpress.com/--- Subject: Re: BN DVDTo: Date: Friday, June 10, 2011, 6:46 PM

Thank you all for your feedback but I wanted to make a quick clarification. I wasn’t asking about BN positioning, I was asking about the DVD and using it in practice.I agree that positioning and latch are not a “one size fits all†deal but I was surprised to hear a few of you say that BN “ may be pretty good for many women who are having minor problems†and that you think BN is about “laying back to BF all the timeâ€. I have to disagree. I think the principles on BF are extremely helpful for moms and babies coping with severe issues as well as minor ones and BN can be done sitting on a park bench just as easily as lying on a bed. I don’t look at BN as a particular angle of mother’s body or some hard and fast

way to latch/position but rather as a way to help moms and babies be in a position to help them use their instincts, feel stable and secure and let gravity help keep baby in a comfy spot with a wider gape.So, I guess I see BN a little differently and don’t view it as a position for breastfeeding but more of an approach (and maybe philosophy?).I really don’t use any boppies, breast friends, etc any more at all. Occasionally a bed pillow under mom’s arm r a rolled up receiving blanket for her wrist, etc but no pillows for baby. And it works, even for dyads the need practice and extra support. It works because ti enable babies to use their innate skills/reflexes instead of fighting against them (head shoving/arm holding/pushing to latch, shallow gape, etc, etc). However in having this conversation, I think I have decided I do not want the DVD after all since I’d be worried parents would zone in on the dyads on the screen rather than learn with their own baby. So thanks for helping me solidify my decision. Cole

[Guest guest]

you actually see it just as I do! I don't use pillows either. I joke with mom

that no one had to buy a $45 pillow 1000 years ago and babies breastfed! Haha.

As for the DVD in general I really don't teach classes any more but I did use

Glover " s mostly when I did. These days I am not sure the videos help as much

before baby as they may help after. But I have had moms compare their breasts to

the video breast and think it won't work for them. I like to suggest the link to

the video after they did it and see it works well as a reminder. What I want is

a combo video of all the comfi ease of breastfeeding positions with moms of

various color and breast size and nipple shape!

Pam MazzellaDiBosco

Pam MazzellaDiBosco. IBCLC

[Guest guest]

wrote: "You will never get an argument from me about using this approach, if it is working, great, happy to have effective options. But speaking of this as if it is THE way to breastfeed? When I start to hear concepts like this presented this way I start to tune out."

I so agree, ! Having been working with breastfeeding mothers for 30 years now, I have seen **so many** "this is it!" theories that were going to fix all problems. While all of these "this is it!" theories worked for *some* mothers and babies, nothing works for all of them. I, too, get very suspicious of any ideas that are touted as "fix-alls".

Dee Kassing

[Guest guest]

Dear and Dee,I agree with both of you that BN should not be presented as a fix-all method to breastfeeding issues. However, in some ways, I also disagree with you as this approach to positioning the infant and the posture taken by the mother almost always makes an improvement to painful latch and/or non-latching (breast refusing) infants. The difference I see with this approach is that it takes in consideration the infant’s neonatal primitive reflexes and permits the infant to use these to be efficient in the right habitat – his mother’s body. It also lets the mother be more intuitive. Most other approaches that we touted as “the” only way to position an infant  at the breast in the past did not take into account any of these neonatal primitive reflexes. It did exactly the contrary thus portraying the infant as “reluctant” or “aggressive non-nurser” (the enemy to control) and did not help the mother feeling positive about her infant’s competence nor hers. It also allows us, the IBCLC, to take a more hands-off approach.  It is so much more empowering for the mother... and in the end much more satisfactory for the IBCLC. My 2-cents... Have a great day. Ghislaine Reid, BA (Translation 1981), LLL (1990), IBCLC(2002)Montreal, Quebec, Canada De : [mailto: ] De la part de Dee KassingEnvoyé : 13 juin 2011 00:56À : Objet : Re: Re: BN DVD wrote: " You will never get an argument from me about using this approach, if it is working, great, happy to have effective options. But speaking of this as if it is THE way to breastfeed? When I start to hear concepts like this presented this way I start to tune out. " I so agree, ! Having been working with breastfeeding mothers for 30 years now, I have seen **so many** " this is it! " theories that were going to fix all problems. While all of these " this is it! " theories worked for *some* mothers and babies, nothing works for all of them. I, too, get very suspicious of any ideas that are touted as " fix-alls " . Dee Kassing

[Guest guest]

I have a question about using BN with mothers with large bellies. I know this sounds strange, but whenever I try it with a woman with a still very large belly, who also has small breasts in comparison, it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work because baby ends up in a position like he is laying on top of a beach ball with his legs sticking out away from mom. Can you picture what I mean? Has anyone else had this trouble? This is a frequent problem for me, so either I am dealing with the most oddly shaped women, or I’m doing something wrong! Becky , IBCLCMilky WayLa Plata, MD

[Guest guest]

Hello, Ghislaine.

I was at a conference a week and a half ago, and I explained that I have been trying laid-back nursing in my office but it has not once worked there, in spite of the fact that I have a nice recliner that moms can easily lean back in. I went to the session on BN, talked to others, even was fortunate enough to have a mother demonstrate up in one of the hotel rooms with her 4-week-old baby. But the difference I see is that the mothers who come to me have very difficult situations. Almost all the mothers in my office have talked to or been seen by at least 3 other bf helpers (sometimes other IBCLCs) before they get to me. I've often got babies who are MAD at the breast. Putting them in laid-back, even in skin-to-skin, just makes them terribly angry, which of course upsets the mother. Baby then senses mother's distress and things just escalate from there.

Back when I worked on a hospital post-partum floor, I saw BN work very well for a lot of the moms and babies who were having trouble "getting it together". But these babies hadn't had weeks of "breast doesn't work" to turn them off of even trying. This is very often not what I am working with in my office.

I plan to try again with the mothers I see this week, armed with a few more tidbits from the conference. Hopefully, it will work better with at least a few of these dyads.

Dee Kassing

Dear and Dee,

I agree with both of you that BN should not be presented as a fix-all method to breastfeeding issues. However, in some ways, I also disagree with you as this approach to positioning the infant and the posture taken by the mother almost always makes an improvement to painful latch and/or non-latching (breast refusing) infants.

The difference I see with this approach is that it takes in consideration the infant’s neonatal primitive reflexes and permits the infant to use these to be efficient in the right habitat – his mother’s body. It also lets the mother be more intuitive.

Most other approaches that we touted as “the†only way to position an infant at the breast in the past did not take into account any of these neonatal primitive reflexes. It did exactly the contrary thus portraying the infant as “reluctant†or “aggressive non-nurser†(the enemy to control) and did not help the mother feeling positive about her infant’s competence nor hers.

It also allows us, the IBCLC, to take a more hands-off approach. It is so much more empowering for the mother... and in the end much more satisfactory for the IBCLC.

My 2-cents...

Have a great day.

Ghislaine Reid, BA (Translation 1981), LLL (1990), IBCLC(2002)

Montreal, Quebec, Canada

[Guest guest]

This was discussed at a session about BN that I attended at a conference a week and a half ago. It was suggested that baby kneel or lie at an angle to mother (like mother's body is the mast and baby's body is the crosspole that holds up a sail, if that makes it any clearer). This can also be helpful for those mother's whose breasts just "fall off" the chest so the nipples end up around the side of the rib cage. Perhaps a pillow can be put against the soles of baby's feet, depending on just how he has to arrange himself depending on how high or close to the surface of the bed/chair mom's nipple hangs if it falls to the side. If the breast is smaller and stays more upright on top of her chest, baby kneeling beside her, so his tummy touches the side of her rib cage, can work really well. This position was suggested by Chele

Marmet years ago, before BN came into vogue.

Dee Kassing

Subject: RE: Re: BN DVDTo: Date: Monday, June 13, 2011, 7:19 AM

I have a question about using BN with mothers with large bellies. I know this sounds strange, but whenever I try it with a woman with a still very large belly, who also has small breasts in comparison, it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work because baby ends up in a position like he is laying on top of a beach ball with his legs sticking out away from mom. Can you picture what I mean? Has anyone else had this trouble? This is a frequent problem for me, so either I am dealing with the most oddly shaped women, or I’m doing something wrong!

Becky , IBCLC

Milky Way

La Plata, MD

[Guest guest]

Dee, I’m not sure I get the idea (and I’ve owned a sailboat!). I just can’t picture how baby can avoid being smashed into the breast this way. Do you know of any pictures or videos? Does anyone have a picture of a BN-type position for a mother with a big belly and small breasts? Thanks. Becky , IBCLCMilky WayLa Plata, MD

[Guest guest]

Well, I haven't owned a sailboat, so maybe my understanding of how sails are attached to masts is faulty so my description doesn't work. But basically, put baby on his knees with his tummy/chest against mother's ribcage and his head comes down over the nipple. Mother is lying on her back with a pillow or two behind her shoulders and upper back.

Dee

Subject: RE: Re: BN DVDTo: Date: Monday, June 13, 2011, 1:26 PM

Dee, I’m not sure I get the idea (and I’ve owned a sailboat!). I just can’t picture how baby can avoid being smashed into the breast this way. Do you know of any pictures or videos? Does anyone have a picture of a BN-type position for a mother with a big belly and small breasts? Thanks.

Becky , IBCLC

Milky Way

La Plata, MD

[Guest guest]

Hello Dee:

How about talking to a mom (before the baby is put on her chest) about the

possibility that her baby might want to express feelings about what hasn't been

going well at breast?

Sometimes, when babies tell their stories, the energy clears and then

breastfeeding can be recovered. (It is a baby SER.)

The difference between baby overwhelm and a SER is that a baby in a SER will

start to root, then have an emotional release, and then rest. This triad of

behaviors may repeat; I've seen babies do as many as 5 or 6. Even one major

release can move the dyad onto a different road.

Midwife the mom to interact with her baby: " WHat are you telling me? " " I am so

sorry to hear that you are so upset. "

Getting the anger out is a good thing.

warmly,

Nikki

>

> Hello, Ghislaine.

>     I was at a conference a week and a half ago, and I explained that I

have been trying laid-back nursing in my office but it has not once worked

there, in spite of the fact that I have a nice recliner that moms can easily

lean back in.  I went to the session on BN, talked to others, even was

fortunate enough to have a mother demonstrate up in one of the hotel rooms with

her 4-week-old baby.  But the difference I see is that the mothers who come to

me have very difficult situations.  Almost all the mothers in my office have

talked to or been seen by at least 3 other bf helpers (sometimes other IBCLCs)

before they get to me.  I've often got babies who are MAD at the breast. 

Putting them in laid-back, even in skin-to-skin, just makes them terribly angry,

which of course upsets the mother.  Baby then senses mother's distress and

things just escalate from there.

[Guest guest]

Hi Dee:

If one thinks of BN as a something to do to make a baby latch, that intention

may not lead to success. What about thinking of BN as a technique to create

environment, and supporting the baby to do what it can?

warmly,

Nikki

>

> OK, I tried laid-back nursing again tonight.  Had a baby who has a posterior

tongue tie and mom with flat/short nipples/reduction surgery.  Baby was having

a lot of trouble latching.  Adding a nipple shield didn't help.  But baby just

kept trying.  Was not upset.  The other times I have tried, baby was upset, so

I thought that was the problem.  We pushed the recliner back so baby could be

held against mother by gravity.  Baby's feet were on mother's leg and baby

could push herself around well.  She kept overshooting the nipple.  *Then* she

got upset.  We finally went back to mom sitting upright and using cradle hold,

gave baby a few more attempts (she kept putting her mouth against the breast but

" missing " , not connecting) and then baby finally latched.  Once again, BN did

not work in my office.  I really don't get it.  I have to say, I don't

understand the allure of this system of working.

>      Dee Kassing

>

[Guest guest]

I can totally picture what Dee is saying about a baby floating on the belly with

the legs sticking out!! The " original swaddle " that I try to get parents to

visualize doesn't always work when the baby is riding on the beach ball belly --

but improvising works well. Some babies, contrary to the majority I work with

are happier having their chest snuggling into the cleavage with their lower

abdomen away -- or they simply don't fit under the unused breast and above the

belly.

As for " biologic nursing " , you must Suzanne Colson herself is open to learning

and not dogmatic. What many don't factor in is that her sample size is in a

SPECIFIC POPULATION of mothers living in DEVELOPED areas and her sample was less

than 100. You cannot extrapolate to a universal procedure across the globe for

all breastfeeding problems from a qualitative study of less than 100. Mothers

and their babies come in all sizes and shapes. It would be as if she had done a

qualitative study of the positions couples use during an intimate moment and

figured out what was most comfortable, analyzed the reason why that one position

was the most comfortable for most couples and then sex therapists decided that

that one position should be used for all couples having difficulties with

physical intimacy. If you think about the many varied physical and

psychological reasons why couples might have problems, then you might realize

the absurdity of selecting a one size fits all approach. And yet, that one

position might be " biological " as would be the other variations that work well

for other couples.

I would argue that any comfortable position that would well for a mother and

baby is biological. Any use of devices becomes " artificial " . Just as some

people need " artificial " limbs or other devices (e.g. hearing aids and glasses),

some people might also need such tools.

Yesterday I had one of my longest days ever with a mom who had successfully

nursed two babies, has excellent technique, and still developed one of the top 5

most severe cases of mastitis I have seen. Just a step away from abcess. I had

the good fortune to watch how carefully our breastfeeding medicine doctor did

the massage and ICING (yes it was shocking to see how the ICE applied to the

worst area of blockage immediately helped the release) while expressing milk.

The breast looking almost black. It regained a color that wasn't so shocking

after the massage and expressing.

She was told to throw away her pillows and resented it. I actually told her she

could use her pillows whenever she wanted even though I don't think she needed

them and showed her how to work without the pillow and what to do when she used

the pillow. We really only used a pillow under her elbow. She was really too

ill to process much at all, but she had the really loving care of a top notch

doula who took it all in. She probably won't use the pillow, but I think she

wanted to know it was OK.

Best regards,

E Burger, MHS, PhD, IBCLC

NYLCA President

sburgernutr@...

[Guest guest]

How about talking to a mom (before the baby is put on her

chest) about the possibility that her baby might want to express feelings about

what hasn't been going well at breast?

Oooh! I see this ALL the time! And watching

the state of the baby – the noticeable difference between venting and

hysterical frustration is as important to teach mom as anything else.

Some babies can vent for a few minutes (or more), then try to get down to

business and get pissed because they still cannot figure out how to

latch. The tone and attitude of the cry changes often times dramatically.

As far as BN almost always working – no. I

think it works for different moms differently, and as mentioned in

different positions other than just laid back.

Classic case: Had a mom come for a weight check last

night. She had come to my group 2 wks ago with a scrawny baby with a

tongue tie, recessed lower jaw and really tight muscles and a huge lump on his

head (vacuum). Her supply was struggling and her positioning was

horrible. And someone had given her a 24mm nipple shield that was way too

big for her and him that he would NOT nurse without. In the middle of the

park with about 8 other moms and a couple dads, I showed her cross cradle asymmetrical

latching, told her to get a 20mm shield and work with him to get him off asap

and referred for immediate frenotomy and body work. She had baby in that

night for body work and 2 mornings later for frenotomy (which I went

to!). They have been working hard – she’s been very diligent

about making sure that latch is just right – which in her case, she

really needed to do – and coming for weight checks, pumping and

supplementing back as needed. So, she comes over yesterday

afternoon, and this kid looks fabulous! Tongue tie was properly clipped;

body work has already resolved many of his structural issues. I watched

her do that old cross cradle hold and said, “Hey – hang on. Do

me a favor. Put him in a cradle hold for a sec. “ She did and

I said, “Don’t DO ANYTHING. Just watch. “ She was

so surprised to watch her little guy very competently use his hands (which he

was unable to do prior because of the muscle issues) and bob around a bit and

find the breast on his own, latch and have a meal. A good one too!

When he was done on that side, she switched him around and asked if she should

let him do it himself again. My comment? “Let HIM earn his

keep!” So she did! Oh, and they got off the nipple shield

last week after the frenotomy… J

My point with the story is that you can use the cradle

hold and sitting up comfortably to let the baby lead the feed, do it himself.

It doesn’t have to be laid back, it doesn’t have to be any position

in particular. WHEN baby CAN do it him/herself, generally they will

figure it out. And even babies with other issues can often figure it out,

as long as the issue is not compromising their ability to lift and move and

find. And I love it when it works out like it did yesterday. I

perfectly happy mom, a baby who is no longer fretting at the breast, just

happily gets down to the business of feeding himself and another dyad who are

successful with this breastfeeding thing… J

Ok – time for coffee…

Warmly,

Jaye

Jaye Simpson, IBCLC, CIIM

Breastfeeding Network

Sacramento, CA

www.breastfeedingnetwork.net

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

thanks for the case info and for the good reminder to everyone about any comfortable position being the 'right one' for that dyad!

i wonder why you were shocked about the ice though?? wouldn't it reduce inflammation and swelling and allow milk to flow? i use it at times though as (I believe) is fond of pointing out there isn't good evidence (other than some clinical evidence seen with our eyes) that either heat or cold 'works'. we wouldn't put heat on a bruised, swollen ankle.....why on a breast. i wonder if heat adds to congestion (you know, like in your badly stuffed up nose that you know is full full full but can't blow because it is locked, blocked and congested??) so the milk can't flow but take away congestion (swelling) and milk can flow. i also sometime think that ice may also dull some pain allowing mom to relax a bit and milk to flow (tho maybe this is secondary...).

isn't it something how moms do get annoyed when asked to consider BF w/o their pillow? - so glad this mom had such good care and support to help resolve this issue and get on the road to wellness. have to say have never seen a breast so damaged it is blackened (and hope never to see one!)

beth

Beth McMillan IBCLC

ottawa, ontario

To: From: sburgernutr@...Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:23:03 -0400Subject: Re: BN DVD

I can totally picture what Dee is saying about a baby floating on the belly with the legs sticking out!! The "original swaddle" that I try to get parents to visualize doesn't always work when the baby is riding on the beach ball belly -- but improvising works well. Some babies, contrary to the majority I work with are happier having their chest snuggling into the cleavage with their lower abdomen away -- or they simply don't fit under the unused breast and above the belly.As for "biologic nursing", you must Suzanne Colson herself is open to learning and not dogmatic. What many don't factor in is that her sample size is in a SPECIFIC POPULATION of mothers living in DEVELOPED areas and her sample was less than 100. You cannot extrapolate to a universal procedure across the globe for all breastfeeding problems from a qualitative study of less than 100. Mothers and their babies come in all sizes and shapes. It would be as if she had done a qualitative study of the positions couples use during an intimate moment and figured out what was most comfortable, analyzed the reason why that one position was the most comfortable for most couples and then sex therapists decided that that one position should be used for all couples having difficulties with physical intimacy. If you think about the many varied physical and psychological reasons why couples might have problems, then you might realize the absurdity of selecting a one size fits all approach. And yet, that one position might be "biological" as would be the other variations that work well for other couples. I would argue that any comfortable position that would well for a mother and baby is biological. Any use of devices becomes "artificial". Just as some people need "artificial" limbs or other devices (e.g. hearing aids and glasses), some people might also need such tools.Yesterday I had one of my longest days ever with a mom who had successfully nursed two babies, has excellent technique, and still developed one of the top 5 most severe cases of mastitis I have seen. Just a step away from abcess. I had the good fortune to watch how carefully our breastfeeding medicine doctor did the massage and ICING (yes it was shocking to see how the ICE applied to the worst area of blockage immediately helped the release) while expressing milk. The breast looking almost black. It regained a color that wasn't so shocking after the massage and expressing. She was told to throw away her pillows and resented it. I actually told her she could use her pillows whenever she wanted even though I don't think she needed them and showed her how to work without the pillow and what to do when she used the pillow. We really only used a pillow under her elbow. She was really too ill to process much at all, but she had the really loving care of a top notch doula who took it all in. She probably won't use the pillow, but I think she wanted to know it was OK.Best regards, E Burger, MHS, PhD, IBCLCNYLCA Presidentsburgernutr@...