Guest guest Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 With " stimulation " or watching porn i can get an erection and ejaculate with enjoyment my problem is only the sensitivity...Its still sux. > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to a point > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the intensity of > an orgasm? > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to know what > your opinions are on this? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 Vornan, Where did you purchase the Aurorix that you are currently using? Warren > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to a point > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the intensity of > an orgasm? > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to know what > your opinions are on this? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 incc did your sensitivity recover fully? How long did it take for you? What med were you on? > > > > > > > > > > > > i know your taking the cialis for prolonged periods, i > don't > > want > > > > to > > > > > > scare u!! but i wanted to let you know that ive read > studies > > in > > > > rats > > > > > on > > > > > > pd5 enzyme drugs causes fibrosis of the inner penile > tissues. > > > > > > > > > > > > if you want ill try and find the research and put up a > link? > > > > > > > > > > > > if your going to carry on taking it then i would recommend > you > > > > take co > > > > > > enzyme q10 in the weeks that you are on it, ive read about > its > > > > > > protective arterial effects which is thought to be > achieved > > by its > > > > > > antioxidant effects on nitric oxide which is a free > radical... > > > > (better > > > > > > safe than sorry) > > > > > > > > > > > > i can try and find where ive read this also if you would > like > > me > > > > to > > > > > put > > > > > > up a link? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 so without stimulation and without porn but with a partner can you get an erection? > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to a point > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the intensity > of > > an orgasm? > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to know what > > your opinions are on this? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 Nemo everything about my sexuality is normal. Except, I dont feel the same pleasure before ssri's. I have numbish erections, they feel alright sometimes. I also experienced five days where I was 100%. My sensitivity came back, but then went away. I can masturbate 4 times a day if I wanted to. My erections are strong, it just I dont feel the same sensations. Anyone else like this??? > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to a > point > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the > intensity > > of > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to know > what > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 IMO, this is basically the situation I live in already. Good erections can be achieved with Cialis, but the sensation is numb and the orgasms are weak. To me this is not real recovery. I don't feel any where near like I once did. My overall health was severely deteriorated. In recent months my overall health has had significant improvement, but it still isn't close to what it was either. And time itself did not bring improvement. I had to research and design a protocol for recovery based on healing the known damage that the pysch drug caused. I know I can't live like this. Two weeks ago I was having regular suicidal fantasies because of these health injury's. And I was never suicidal before the hospital did this to me. I have to fend off the mental and physical injury's from the evil drug and evil hospital. The suicidal fantasy's have gone for now and I hope they don't come back. To answer your question, I know I cannot live like this. This could kill me. I have to recover to be healthy, feel better, live a normal life, and live. > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to a point > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the intensity of > an orgasm? > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to know what > your opinions are on this? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2007 Report Share Posted November 22, 2007 brother my erections are also strong when i masturbate it just takes much longer than it used to do to get it like that and much more effort, but once its up and getting stimulation then its fine. getting one when im with someone with out touching it is another thing enterily and its well embarrassing when you have to get hold of your own cock to stimulate it before sex with someone. (i also have permanent decreased sensation after the 8 days on the ssris) > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to a > > point > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the > > intensity > > > of > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to > know > > what > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2007 Report Share Posted November 22, 2007 > > Nemo everything about my sexuality is normal. Except, I dont feel > the same pleasure before ssri's. I have numbish erections, they feel > alright sometimes. I also experienced five days where I was 100%. > My sensitivity came back, but then went away. I can masturbate 4 > times a day if I wanted to. My erections are strong, it just I dont > feel the same sensations. Anyone else like this??? > > Similar for me - erections are normal but numb. It takes much longer to reach orgasm and sometimes I can barely feel it! I'm not sure what started it - maybe the vasectomy I had 10 years ago had something to do with it because I had some pain afterwards. The numbness seems steadily worse in the last 4 years. Tried cyproheptadine once but it put me to sleep so not much of a test. Some have said that Viagra/Cialis might help this condition but I don't want the " 4 hour " erection problem that I assume may happen when you don't have ED and take these drugs. The last few years I've been taking Lexapro but have switched to Celexa recently (no difference that I've noticed) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2007 Report Share Posted November 22, 2007 If you're still on SSRIs, there is very little chance that you will regain a normal sexuality. Vornan > > > > Nemo everything about my sexuality is normal. Except, I dont feel > > the same pleasure before ssri's. I have numbish erections, they > feel > > alright sometimes. I also experienced five days where I was 100%. > > My sensitivity came back, but then went away. I can masturbate 4 > > times a day if I wanted to. My erections are strong, it just I > dont > > feel the same sensations. Anyone else like this??? > > > > > Similar for me - erections are normal but numb. It takes much longer > to reach orgasm and sometimes I can barely feel it! I'm not sure > what started it - maybe the vasectomy I had 10 years ago had > something to do with it because I had some pain afterwards. The > numbness seems steadily worse in the last 4 years. Tried > cyproheptadine once but it put me to sleep so not much of a test. > Some have said that Viagra/Cialis might help this condition but I > don't want the " 4 hour " erection problem that I assume may happen > when you don't have ED and take these drugs. > The last few years I've been taking Lexapro but have switched to > Celexa recently (no difference that I've noticed) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2007 Report Share Posted November 22, 2007 Hi Warren, I honestly can't remember where I got the stuff. I purchased it online over two years ago, but only tried it recently. I searched my email account and although the shipping confirmation is there, it doesn't list the name of the company. But Antiaging Systems (http://www.antiaging-systems.com/) sells it, and they are a very reliable company. If you decide to try it, start out with a low dose. The standard dose is 150 mg twice per day, but I found that 150 mg once per day was enough for me. Also, if you take it too late in the day it can cause insomnia. I found that even if I took 75 mg twice per day (once in the morning and once in the afternoon) I still didn't sleep as well as 150 mg in the morning. One other curious thing was that the bigest improvements happened when I started to taper off the stuff. When I started taking it, the effects weren't so apparent. Vornan > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to a > point > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the > intensity of > > an orgasm? > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to know > what > > your opinions are on this? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2007 Report Share Posted November 22, 2007 That's very interesting Vornan. I noticed in one of your last e-mails you mentioned that some of your results may be permanent. Have the positive results continued? Warren > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to a > > point > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the > > intensity of > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to know > > what > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 -Warren, Yes, the positive results have remained. It's been almost a month since I stopped taking it, so maybe they are permanent. I'm not sure how it happened. Aurorix is a reversible MAOI. It inhibits monoamine oxidase A, so raises serotonin and noradrenaline more than dopamine. The increased noradrenaline is probably what causes the insomnia if you take it late in the day. As regards serotonin, it sounds counter-intuitive that taking something that raises serotonin would help PSSD. But the mechanism of action is completely different to an SSRI. If postsynaptic serotonin receptors are over-sensitized after taking an SSRI, perhaps raising serotonin by an alternative mechanism helps desensitize them again. But as I mentioned, it wasn't until I started tapering off that I noticed the full benefits. There's probably something quite complex going in that we haven't figured out yet. Vornan > > That's very interesting Vornan. I noticed in one of your last e- mails > you mentioned that some of your results may be permanent. Have the > positive results continued? > > Warren > > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to a > > > point > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the > > > intensity of > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to know > > > what > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 So you are saying possibly it was a rebound effect that could have caused this ? How is your mood right now, did it help the agitation if you had this problem at all ? > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to > a > > > > point > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the > > > > intensity of > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to > know > > > > what > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 Well, back in mid-2006 I tried Emsam which is a non-reversible MAOI. I took 6mg, which mainly inhibits MAO-B, which would increase dopamine. It inhibits MAO-A very mildly. It didn't help at all, and actually made some of my symptoms (mainly tactile sensitivity) worse. Also, everytime I take a supplement or med that is " pro-dopamine " , I usually get a similar response. So perhaps in my case (and others), noradrenaline and serotonin should be the focus, as puzzling as that sounds. Luther > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to > a > > > > point > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the > > > > intensity of > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to > know > > > > what > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 did you get night time erections when you were taking Aurorix or when you take any maoi? how long did you take Aurorix for? i was sleep deprived when i had my day of spontaneous erections last week, maybe it has something to do with it....... ive just been reading about r.e.m sleep and it says that during r.e.m sleep monoamine neurotransmitters are blocked, and its during this phase of sleep that you get night time erections. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REM_sleep > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to > a > > > > point > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the > > > > intensity of > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to > know > > > > what > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 perhaps the drugs effects have been because the increased amount of neurotransmitters have desensitised the receptors that where causing the symptoms....and after discontinuing they were not sensitive enough to cause problems anymore. > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self to > a > > > > point > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the > > > > intensity of > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to > know > > > > what > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 That's what I just said. Vornan -- In SSRIsex , " nemo.shark " wrote: > > perhaps the drugs effects have been because the increased amount of > neurotransmitters have desensitised the receptors that where causing > the symptoms....and after discontinuing they were not sensitive > enough to cause problems anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self > to > > a > > > > > point > > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the > > > > > intensity of > > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to > > know > > > > > what > > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 Yeah, dopaminergics have generally not been helpful for me. I might still try some amineptine or mirapex, but not before I've done another cycle of aurorix. Vornan > > > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self > to > > a > > > > > point > > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or the > > > > > intensity of > > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like to > > know > > > > > what > > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 I'm currently taking a ZMA stack specially formulated with Mucuna Pruriens. It's given me rock hard morning erections which are almost as strong as my pre-PSSD days. However I believe the dopamine effects of the Mucuna Pruriens is reducing my penile sensitivity further. Doesn't make sense to me, but as I said before, every pro-dopamine treatment does this to me. Will probably switch to a standard ZMA. Luther > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its self > > to > > > a > > > > > > point > > > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or > the > > > > > > intensity of > > > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like > to > > > know > > > > > > what > > > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 Wouldn't the serotonin receptors (particularly 5ht1A receptor)be desensitized rather than over-sensitized after taking an SSRI due to re-uptake blockade? I'm not being argumentative. I'd just like some clarification. I have had the same experience as many of you in that dopamine drugs don't really help the situation. I had my neurotransmitters tested at a lab about 6 months ago and the results showed that my dopamine levels were normal but that I was very low in Norepinephrine, Epinephrine, and Serotonin. Anyway I believe that many of our conditions have nothing to do with dopamine levels or receptors. Rather I believe that areas of the brain that utilize dopamine paricularly for sexual functioning are not receiving the signal due to a dysfunction in either serotonin or norepinephrine. I really don't know why many of us don't respond well to supplements or why we receive an initial reaction that goes away after a day or two. It could be because the SSRIs affected the way inwhich our bodies metabolize certain neurotransmitters in the brain. For this reason I feel like artifically raising levels with an MAOI is worth a shot. I'm not sure that Aurorix will work for me but I'm encouraged by Vornan's results since he (like many of us on this board) has responded to very few things since getting off of the SSRIs. Warren > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its > self > > > to > > > > a > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return or > > the > > > > > > > intensity of > > > > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would like > > to > > > > know > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 I think you are right about the 5HT1A receptors. I'm not sure about the others; I've seen conflicting information. I think what you wrote about dopamine utilization makes a lot of sense. If the seorotonin and norepinehrine systems are screwed up in such a way that dopamine can't work (signal) properly, then taking dopaminergics isn't gonna help. On the other hand Biker seems to repsond to dopaminergics. But he also took Aurorix for a few weeks almost immediately after he quit SSRIs and before he started dopaminergics, so maybe that helped him to respond to them better. Thanks for letting us know your neurotranmitter results. Why do you think aurorix might not work for you? Vornan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its > > self > > > > to > > > > > a > > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return > or > > > the > > > > > > > > intensity of > > > > > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would > like > > > to > > > > > know > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 Yeah my adrenaline is low (8.0 on a scale of 8.0 to 12.0) and norepinephrine is severely low (16.2 on a scale of 35.0 to 50.0). Dopamine was 136.8 on a scale to 200 to 350, though PEA was on the low end (197 on a scale of 175 to 450). My serotonin was right in the middle, which surprised my doctor. Warren, what lab test did you use? Mine was a urine test. The only lab test I've heard about is the one Dr. Braverman uses in NY. Then there's the spinal tap fluid. You know what I wonder? I wonder why all the doctors and drug companies claim that depression can be due to a serotonin deficiency, yet they put you on drugs before actually testing the serotonin. Hmmm.... Shay jwarrent1 wrote: > > Wouldn't the serotonin receptors (particularly 5ht1A receptor)be > desensitized rather than over-sensitized after taking an SSRI due > to re-uptake blockade? I'm not being argumentative. I'd just like > some clarification. > I have had the same experience as many of you in that dopamine drugs > don't really help the situation. I had my neurotransmitters tested > at a lab about 6 months ago and the results showed that my dopamine > levels were normal but that I was very low in Norepinephrine, > Epinephrine, and Serotonin. > Anyway I believe that many of our conditions have nothing to do with > dopamine levels or receptors. Rather I believe that areas of the > brain that utilize dopamine paricularly for sexual functioning are > not receiving the signal due to a dysfunction in either serotonin or > norepinephrine. I really don't know why many of us don't respond > well to supplements or why we receive an initial reaction that goes > away after a day or two. It could be because the SSRIs affected the > way inwhich our bodies metabolize certain neurotransmitters in the > brain. For this reason I feel like artifically raising levels with > an MAOI is worth a shot. I'm not sure that Aurorix will work for me > but I'm encouraged by Vornan's results since he (like many of us on > this board) has responded to very few things since getting off of > the SSRIs. > > Warren > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its > > self > > > > to > > > > > a > > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return > or > > > the > > > > > > > > intensity of > > > > > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would > like > > > to > > > > > know > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 to test your neurotransmitters you would have to test them morning mid day and just before bed to get a true reflection of whats going on... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its > > self > > > > to > > > > > a > > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return > or > > > the > > > > > > > > intensity of > > > > > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would > like > > > to > > > > > know > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Vornan, I'm cautiously optimistic that the Aurorix will work. I'm just sick of getting my hopes up and then ending up right where I started. As I said before, though, I'm very encouraged by your positive results. I really haven't heard anyone from this site get much better unless they went on HRT, and my testosterone is already over 900 just about everytime I have it tested. Free testosterone is also high. I have thought about trying natural progesterone but am trying to stay away from HRT for fear of screwing up my body even worse than it is. You said that Biker tried a course of Aurorix? Did he report any positive results from it? What do you think about trying Selegiline after a course of Aurorix? I have read about several people on the site who reported no respone to Selegiline. However, they might have if their other neurotransmitters were at appropriate levels. Just a thought. Warren > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved > its > > > self > > > > > to > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you > wanted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return > > or > > > > the > > > > > > > > > intensity of > > > > > > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would > > like > > > > to > > > > > > know > > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Shay, I used Neuroscience. They seemed reputable but I really don't know how accurate neurotransmitter testing is. Here is their website. www.neurorelief.com Warren > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would you guys be happy if this problem resolved its > > > self > > > > > to > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > > > where you get a natural erection whenever you wanted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even if the lack of sensation does not fully return > > or > > > > the > > > > > > > > > intensity of > > > > > > > > > > an orgasm? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > myself i could live with that situation, but would > > like > > > > to > > > > > > know > > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > > your opinions are on this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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