Re: Buteyko

[Guest guest]

I question it. Buteyko instructors and supports say, this breathing

technique will help RAISE Co2 levels by controlling the breathing.

Asthma is an obstructive disease with restrictive components. An

obstructive lung diseases (there are only 5) tend to hold in air

causing a buildup of Co2. So if one is having an asthma attack and

their Co2 is building, why would you want to do a breathing technique

that raised it more?

Buteyko breathing has not been " bought into " by physicians or RT's

alike, I personally believe because of the lack of enough evidence to

prove it's point. I have run into some people that have tried this

technique and some have said it worked other have said it did nothing

for them. Just my opinion I will wait for further studies before I

throw out my inhalers for my patients.

I can imagine a slow breathing technique that allowing you to relax.

That could cause your smooth muscles to dilate and help with the

asthma attack, but other that ????

>

> Matt,

>

> What do you think of the Buteyko method?

>

[Guest guest]

> I question it. Buteyko instructors and supports say, this breathing

> technique will help RAISE Co2 levels by controlling the breathing.

> Asthma is an obstructive disease with restrictive components. An

> obstructive lung diseases (there are only 5) tend to hold in air

> causing a buildup of Co2. So if one is having an asthma attack and

> their Co2 is building, why would you want to do a breathing technique

> that raised it more?

I started reading about Buteyko about two months ago. I am not a

doctor or chemist, but reviewed the medical information, and even

though I do not understand it all, the write-up made logical sense to

me (and I do have post-grad logic courses in my history). The Buteyko

research has been accepted by the medical professions in several

countries (not the US), as I understand it.

I will describe it with the imprecise language that I used to describe

it to my doctor. The lack of CO2 somewhere in the body causes oxygen

not to bind to whatever it is supposed to bind to, which is why you

get a loss of oxygen to the brain (and elsewhere) during an asthmatic

attack. My doctor agreed with me to go off my Advair, which I have

been off for over a month now, without feeling any need for it

whatsoever.

Check out ths article

http://www.infoholix.net/article_asthma_is_curable_by_buteyko_method.php

> Buteyko breathing has not been " bought into " by physicians or RT's

> alike,

Not in the US, but check Russia and maybe even the UK and Aus.

> I personally believe because of the lack of enough evidence to

> prove it's point.

Apparently there is extensive emperical data that was collected in the

Ukraine (perhaps?), although I have not seen the emperical data.

> I have run into some people that have tried this

> technique and some have said it worked other have said it did nothing

> for them.

Even if you don't buy into everything that Buteyko did to get the

results, at the very least I am quite sure that doing the following

things has helped me in the past few weeks:

1. Breathing through my nose.

Avoid breathing through your mouth as much as possible. I was

typically breathing through my mouth, but surpised at how often I had

been doing mouth breathing until I focussed on this.

2. Being conscious about breathing in less volume of air.

This is the key to Buteyko. It has been called " reduced-volume

breathing. " I don't think I am doing the actual Buteyko breathing

technique in the best way to get results the fastest, but I am able to

figure out how to be fine with breathing out for a longer time than

usual and more cautious about breathing in, letting my body breathe

itself (others can say this better).

3. Breathing from my diaphram and not at all from my chest.

Your belly should go out when you breathe in.

4. Learned what a CP (control pause) is and started to measure it.

This seems like a better measure than blowing into a peak flow meter,

which I no longer do.

5. Tring to keep my body relaxed when not exercising.

I have EIA, and am now able to exercise using the rule that I do no

more exercise than I can do while still breathing only through my

nose.

I am still doing everything else I was doing for the asthma including

staying out of the cold as much as feasible, using a humidifier,

taking vitamins, etc. I am still taking Singulair, but not Advair. I

hope to go off from Singulair someday too, but my goal right now is to

be able to exercise and to get healthier.

> Just my opinion I will wait for further studies before I

> throw out my inhalers for my patients.

Don't throw out the inhaler for anyone until they are breathing

better. If you try the above 5 things for a week or so, you might

feel, as I did, that you can go off the inhalers.

>

> I can imagine a slow breathing technique that allowing you to relax.

> That could cause your smooth muscles to dilate and help with the

> asthma attack, but other that ????

You might want to read a bit more about the CO2 theory regarding O2

binding. I have not found any medical studies that suggest the

medical information regarding Buteyko's research is bunk, but if you

find anything of that nature, I'm interessted. I did search for it,

but do not have access to all medical literature.

I am just starting this, so not sold on it either, but so far, so good

and I am finally hopeful since I have finally found something that is

actually helping my EIA.

Best wishes. --dawn

>

>

> >

> > Matt,

> >

> > What do you think of the Buteyko method?

> >

[Guest guest]

Please don't attack me for not believing in this technique. I

encourage everyone on this list to try it. I'll bet that maybe ONE

person MIGHT be able to discontinue their asthma medications because

of it. Asthma is much like a runny nose, just in the airway not the

nasal passages. Will someone come up with a breathing technique to

stop runny noses?

As an asthma educator, I try to work with each person to find the

MINIMUM amount of medications needed to control their asthma. I am

all for finding methods and techniques that will help. I just

haven't see the results, from Buteyko breathing that will make me

change my teaching methods.

> > >

> > > Matt,

> > >

> > > What do you think of the Buteyko method?

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, Matt, attacking is not something I would consider, so if my

information sounded attacking, I definitely apologize.

I did not realize you had tried Buteyko and failed to recognize the

results. Have you tried it on yourself or have you tried to coach

someone through it? Since I'm on a search for results myself, I

prefer not to spend time on things that are unlikely to work and I

have not read about many failures with Buteyko, so any information you

have would be most appreciated. Thanks and, again, my apologies as I

had no intent to attack you, just provide the information I have.

Cheers! --dawn

> Please don't attack me for not believing in this technique. I

> encourage everyone on this list to try it. I'll bet that maybe ONE

> person MIGHT be able to discontinue their asthma medications because

> of it. Asthma is much like a runny nose, just in the airway not the

> nasal passages. Will someone come up with a breathing technique to

> stop runny noses?

>

> As an asthma educator, I try to work with each person to find the

> MINIMUM amount of medications needed to control their asthma. I am

> all for finding methods and techniques that will help. I just

> haven't see the results, from Buteyko breathing that will make me

> change my teaching methods.

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > Matt,

> > > >

> > > > What do you think of the Buteyko method?

[Guest guest]

Enough is enough,

If you continue to send this stuff you will be band from the group.

If any of our members are interested they can find this info on the web.

tyee1943

co-moderator

[Guest guest]

Sorry , this response is to Maguire.

His post are way to much.

Tyee (Donna)

co-moderator

RE: Re: Buteyko

Who is this in response to?

From: asthma [mailto:asthma ] On Behalf Of DonnaSent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 12:46 PMTo: asthma Subject: Re: Re: Buteyko

Enough is enough,

If you continue to send this stuff you will be band from the group.

If any of our members are interested they can find this info on the web.

tyee1943

co-moderator

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.13/577 - Release Date: 12/6/2006 4:39 PM

[Guest guest]

Thanks . I have tried to find an instructor, sending such a request to the Buteyko list, and almost connected with one while driving through Cleveland (~14 hours from home), but so far haven't found one anywhere around (I'm in Northwest Iowa, but head at least to Kansas City and Chicago several times a year). I'll be in the LA, CA area over the holidays, but was unable to find anyone there either. I would be willing to drive as much as 5 hours each way to work with a Buteyko trainer.

I will take issue (just a little) with the " almost everything that you have learned in your life " comment in that I am an avid reader, and have learned much from films, books, and even TV. I have read several books on asthma, including one specifically on Buteyko. But in this case, I do agree that it would be good to get some training from a Buteyko coach. At this point, I'm interested in knowing where any coaches are in the US so that if I happen to travel there on business I could make an appointment.

I do try to ensure that each breath is through the nose, but as anyone will, I slip up sometimes and I don't kick myself for that. I have yet to figure out how to sing and breath through my nose, for example, and have not attempted to play the flute since I started doing this, but that might be hard to do too. I will suggest that for at least my personality type, it is not particularly helpful to spreading the Buteyko method around to make it an imperative that every breath be through the nose as that could trip me up, thinking there is no chance for me to match this requirement 100%. It is a rule of thumb, a guideline, in the category of " wisdom " not " law, " right? Every nose breath is better than if it were a mouth breath, whether acheiving 100% or not. Just my two cents, and likely just a difference in personality, not in opinion on the importance of nose breathing. cheers! --dawn

hi dawn ,like almost everything that you have learned in your life you will need an instructor,and the basic skills of breath reduction can be learnt in 8-10 hours this is much better spaced out over at least one month, beneficial; results are usually felt at once ,this is more so in eia .Alergenic asthma also responds but normanaly a little slower ,the GOLDEN RULE is that EVERY breath IN AND OUT IS THROUGH THE NOSE espically at night , failure to observe this will prevent progress,,whilst obeying this rule, will be a little bit of buteyko method all the time ,as the nostrils are allways modulating the air flow ie reducing it by opening and closeing in sucession,you can check this by closing one nostril taking several breaths,,then closing the other one and doing the same you will observe that the flow in one is better than in thre other ,,,try this again in several hours .if the nose is totally blocked or blocked enough to

prevent someone useing it their instructor can show them a simple means to unblock it hope this helps, onward and upward , charles maguireDawn Wolthuis <

dawnwolthuis@...> wrote: Sorry, Matt, attacking is not something I would consider, so if my

information sounded attacking, I definitely apologize.I did not realize you had tried Buteyko and failed to recognize theresults. Have you tried it on yourself or have you tried to coachsomeone through it? Since I'm on a search for results myself, I

prefer not to spend time on things that are unlikely to work and Ihave not read about many failures with Buteyko, so any information youhave would be most appreciated. Thanks and, again, my apologies as I

had no intent to attack you, just provide the

information I have.Cheers! --dawn> Please don't attack me for not believing in this technique. I> encourage everyone on this list to try it. I'll bet that maybe ONE

> person MIGHT be able to discontinue their asthma medications because> of it. Asthma is much like a runny nose, just in the airway not the> nasal passages. Will someone come up with a breathing technique to

> stop runny noses?>> As an asthma educator, I try to work with each person to find the> MINIMUM amount of medications needed to control their asthma. I am> all for finding methods and techniques that will help. I just

> haven't see the results, from Buteyko breathing that will make me> change my teaching methods.>>> > > > >> > > > Matt,> > > >> > > > What do you think of the Buteyko method?

[Guest guest]

The blood gas balance is an incredibly complex ballet in the body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arterial_blood_gas. It would not surprise

me at all that you could force a change in the balance mechanically,

just by " adjusting " the CO2 partial pressure. I've had some rather

unpleasant (and pleasant) experiences mountain climbing - it's very

easy to disturb.

I'm willing to keep an open mind until I have more complete information.

Arne

I question it. Buteyko instructors and supports say, this breathing

technique will help RAISE Co2 levels by controlling the breathing.

Asthma is an obstructive disease with restrictive components. An

obstructive lung diseases (there are only 5) tend to hold in air

causing a buildup of Co2. So if one is having an asthma attack and

their Co2 is building, why would you want to do a breathing technique

that raised it more?...

[Guest guest]

Oh my, I just checked and see you are right. There were some that

were really long, but that is rarely an issue for people these days

since this is all text. A long text message is small in terms of

bytes.

So, I'm curious too--was there a techical glitch, or is there a habit

of removing posts that do not meet some criteria or can people remove

their own posts or have them expire (I moderate a yahoo group and

haven't seen that before, however). Just curious, what happend?

--dawn

>

> Apparently, posts are censored here? I see the e-mails I have received are no

longer on the web. I admit my knowledge/experience of asthma is about 10 years

old (last episodes) and out of date - that's why I'm here. But I am astounded

that someone is willing to determine what I need to hear. I would prefer to be

the judge of that. I can always hit the delete key.

>

> 20 years ago, chiropractic was anathema - now, insurance pays for it.

Acupuncture is routinely accepted (and frequently covered by insurance), and

even naturopathy now (some part of 2000 years of experience might be right).

>

> I have a strong science background, raised in a medical professional family

(pathologist father, inhalation therapy brother), but still keep an open mind.

I'm disappointed.

>

>

> Arne

[Guest guest]

Why would you ban someone for giving information that new members may be searching for???? Good or bad, we have doctors that give us options, so this the best place to discuss them. If you can get banned for discussing options, I may be in the wrong place.... Who was it that said we may have too many chiefs, and not enough Indians with all the many new moderators??? She may be very correct in her observation.

Re: Re: Buteyko

Enough is enough,

If you continue to send this stuff you will be band from the group.

If any of our members are interested they can find this info on the web.

tyee1943

co-moderator

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.7/569 - Release Date: 12/5/06 3:00 AM

[Guest guest]

I'm a new subscriber, so I don't have the history on any of this, but

having been on several lists over the past many years, I would suggest

that I would be less appalled by the actions (making me think this

might not be a list on which I want to participate) if you did the

following:

1. Any posts that have gone through already should be left on the

archives site. Unless there is something highly objectionable, it is

useful for the archives to BE the archives. Otherwise each of us

might feel we need to keep all posts ourselves. The act of removing

posts from the yahoogroups site makes it seem that the archives are

unreliable.

2. Let a poster know if you do not like their actions or what they

wrote. After they have a chance to read your admonition, then if they

do the same thing again (in this case, providing too long a response

when they could perhaps have pointed us to material on another web

site instead), then perhaps ban the person, based on a discussion

among the moderators and with the person, perhaps.

3. I don't mind people " pitching " their favorite approaches to asthma

as that is what I'm trying to learn, but it would be good to know if

someone who is posting works for a company that makes money by

specifically selling to asthmatics. Perhaps requesting that they put

[AD] in the subject line if their response could help the bottomline

of their company, would be helpful. Just a thought -- I'm sure there

are other ideas too.

I'm with others who suggested that we are trying to get information,

so any and all information that might be helpful with asthma is much

appreciated. Spamming the list with repeated sales pitches is not,

however. But removing postings and posters when it is not obvious to

the average reader that such actions were required is not common on

such lists, from my experience. Thanks for your consideration.

--dawn

> I believe there is enough information on this sight about this

> technique to lead someone to search out more on their on.

>

> The ban was not for providing information, it was for posting so

> much, it was close to being SPAM. This group (that posted the

> information) has been ban from several groups I am a part of or own

> for doing the same thing. Their objective appears to be to sell

> everyone in the group on the technique, then SELL them book and

> information on how to do it.

>

> If anyone ever asks about other types of therapies for asthma, I will

> reply with some basic info on Buteyko.

>

>

> >

> > Why would you ban someone for giving information that new members

> may be searching for???? Good or bad, we have doctors that give us

> options, so this the best place to discuss them. If you can get

> banned for discussing options, I may be in the wrong place.... Who

> was it that said we may have too many chiefs, and not enough Indians

> with all the many new moderators??? She may be very correct in her

> observation.

> >

> >

> >

> > Re: Re: Buteyko

> >

> >

> >

> > Enough is enough,

> > If you continue to send this stuff you will be band from the

> group.

> >

> > If any of our members are interested they can find this info on

> the web.

> > tyee1943

> > co-moderator

[Guest guest]

I agree

with Dawn.

From: asthma [mailto:asthma ] On Behalf Of Dawn Wolthuis

Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006

11:23 AM

To: asthma

Subject: Re: Re: Buteyko

I'm a new

subscriber, so I don't have the history on any of this, but

having been on several lists over the past many years, I would suggest

that I would be less appalled by the actions (making me think this

might not be a list on which I want to participate) if you did the

following:

1. Any posts that have gone through already should be left on the

archives site. Unless there is something highly objectionable, it is

useful for the archives to BE the archives. Otherwise each of us

might feel we need to keep all posts ourselves. The act of removing

posts from the yahoogroups site makes it seem that the archives are

unreliable.

2. Let a poster know if you do not like their actions or what they

wrote. After they have a chance to read your admonition, then if they

do the same thing again (in this case, providing too long a response

when they could perhaps have pointed us to material on another web

site instead), then perhaps ban the person, based on a discussion

among the moderators and with the person, perhaps.

3. I don't mind people " pitching " their favorite approaches to asthma

as that is what I'm trying to learn, but it would be good to know if

someone who is posting works for a company that makes money by

specifically selling to asthmatics. Perhaps requesting that they put

[AD] in the subject line if their response could help the bottomline

of their company, would be helpful. Just a thought -- I'm sure there

are other ideas too.

I'm with others who suggested that we are trying to get information,

so any and all information that might be helpful with asthma is much

appreciated. Spamming the list with repeated sales pitches is not,

however. But removing postings and posters when it is not obvious to

the average reader that such actions were required is not common on

such lists, from my experience. Thanks for your consideration.

--dawn

On 12/8/06, Matt Anders, RRT, AE-C <inside_matts_head>

wrote:

> I believe there is enough information on this sight about this

> technique to lead someone to search out more on their on.

>

> The ban was not for providing information, it was for posting so

> much, it was close to being SPAM. This group (that posted the

> information) has been ban from several groups I am a part of or own

> for doing the same thing. Their objective appears to be to sell

> everyone in the group on the technique, then SELL them book and

> information on how to do it.

>

> If anyone ever asks about other types of therapies for asthma, I will

> reply with some basic info on Buteyko.

>

>

> >

> > Why would you ban someone for giving information that new members

> may be searching for???? Good or bad, we have doctors that give us

> options, so this the best place to discuss them. If you can get

> banned for discussing options, I may be in the wrong place.... Who

> was it that said we may have too many chiefs, and not enough Indians

> with all the many new moderators??? She may be very correct in her

> observation.

> >

> >

> >

> > Re: Re: Buteyko

> >

> >

> >

> > Enough is enough,

> > If you continue to send this stuff you will be band from the

> group.

> >

> > If any of our members are interested they can find this info on

> the web.

> > tyee1943

> > co-moderator

[Guest guest]

I believe there is enough information on this site about this

technique to lead someone to search out more on their on.

The ban was not for providing information, it was for posting so

much, it was close to being SPAM. This group (that posted the

information) has been ban from several groups I am a part of or own

for doing the same thing. Their objective appears to be to sell

everyone in the group on the technique, then SELL them book and

information on how to do it.

As far as the too many moderators issue, this groups has 845 members

and only 4 active moderators.

>

> Why would you ban someone for giving information that new members

may be searching for???? Good or bad, we have doctors that give us

options, so this the best place to discuss them. If you can get

banned for discussing options, I may be in the wrong place.... Who

was it that said we may have too many chiefs, and not enough Indians

with all the many new moderators??? She may be very correct in her

observation.

>

>

>

> Re: Re: Buteyko

>

>

>

> Enough is enough,

> If you continue to send this stuff you will be band from the

group.

>

> If any of our members are interested they can find this info on

the web.

> tyee1943

> co-moderator

>

>

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.15.7/569 - Release Date:

12/5/06 3:00 AM

>

[Guest guest]

If anyone on this sight wants to know more about this technique,

there is a link to it on the links page.

Now, lets end the subject please.

> > >

> > > Why would you ban someone for giving information that new

members

> > may be searching for???? Good or bad, we have doctors that give

us

> > options, so this the best place to discuss them. If you can get

> > banned for discussing options, I may be in the wrong place....

Who

> > was it that said we may have too many chiefs, and not enough

Indians

> > with all the many new moderators??? She may be very correct in

her

> > observation.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Re: Re: Buteyko

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Enough is enough,

> > > If you continue to send this stuff you will be band from the

> > group.

> > >

> > > If any of our members are interested they can find this info

on

> > the web.

> > > tyee1943

> > > co-moderator

>