Re: Living in others' shadows

[Guest guest]

> Is it true that anyone is more evolved than you?

No.

How do you react? Horribly. I'm never good enough the way I am.

Spirit is not loud and clear and big in me. It's over there with them

others.

Who would you be? Perfect. Perfect. Just the way I am.

No one is more evolved than me. I am not more evolved than anyone. We

are all equal.

Thanks Steve.

I think I just had a little shift. I went to have a shower and found

myself saying " I am willing to let this go " in the shower. Even that

felt a tiny bit scary because I could sense that if this story went

it would mean I would have to soar...I would be light and free...oh

my god, I wouldn't know myself. Then I noticed I was burping a bit

and I remembered what a healer told me once that that's the

gallbladder and one sometimes burbs when processing stuff if there's

anger towards the self. Which led me to oh, this is how I abuse

myself, with this big story of others' evolvement and peace. I'm

hearing that I don't want to abuse myself anymore. Gosh, this feels

good. We shall see:)

Love, Margaret

>

> Living in others' shadows-bad language

>

>

>

>

> I am pissed off at how I live in the shadow of people I declare as

> being more evolved and more peaceful than me.

>

> And I am sick to death of writing out the fucking Work on 'he

> shouldn't be more evolved and more peaceful than me'.

>

> I am just mad right now and something tells me it's just good to

feel

> mad.

>

>

>

> I am angry at J and J. because I live my life in their shadow.

>

> I am angry at them for imposing on me all the time with thoughts

> about them.

>

> I hate them for always being more evolved and further ahead than me

> and making sure I know it.

>

> I want them to disappear off the face of the earth FOREVER.

>

> They shouldn't ever think I am nothing to be reckoned with.

>

> I need them in order to feel hatred.

>

> They are arrogant, full of themselves, egos masquerading as oh-so-

> spiritual.

>

> I don't ever want to feel jealous of them again.

>

>

> Some great combination of jealousy and hatred of their arrogance

> which I don't even know is there but I know I am so fucking

arrogant.

>

> You have to live your life in their shadow.

>

> Is that true? It feels like it.

>

> Can you absolutely know it's true? No.

>

>

> How do you react? Hatred. Hatred of them. I don't live. I'm holding

> myself back in some way. I'm holding myself down. I'm not good

enough

> because they are over there and they are doing it right- they know

it

> all - they know it all.

> TA I know it all. I'm wanting to know it all, that's for sure.

>

> You can know it all. Is it true? No.

> How do you live? Always searching, seeking, trying to figure it

out,

> trying to get information, trying to know it, how to do it, how to

be

> the very best help. It's my f......... religion. I don't relax into

> the not knowing. Right now I'm picturing J's voice with it's all-

> knowing, all-together quality and I'm hating her. Even when she

says

> it's intense for her she's saying it in an all-knowing way - there

is

> no humility in her. No humility in me.

>

> Who would you be? Resting in self. Present. Not caring about what I

> know or don't know.

>

> TA. I can't know it all. The mind can't know it all -so finite,

> limited.

>

> How do you treat them when you attach to " You have to live your

> life in their shadow " ?

>

> Looking up to them. Makes me sick. I'm in their presence and I'm

> monitoring to see what's OK or not. What shows that I'm aware.

> Looking for proof that they are not all they are cracked up to be.

> Looking for proof that they are evolved and then hurting. Feeling a

> core belief " They absolutely can't be better than me. "

>

> How do you treat yourself? There's nobody home. I'm on automatic.

> I'm playing a fucking role. I don't care what's going on with me,

I'm

> totally pandering to their energy and how to be in order to be

taken

> seriously by them. I hate how I do this. I just hate it.

>

> who would you be without this belief 'you have to live in their

> shadow'?

>

> Swelling up. Breathing. Bigger. Huge. Not caring about what the

fuck

> they are doing, whether they are suffering or not, awake or not.

>

> I don't have to live in their shadow.

> I have to live in my shadow - that's what I'm doing when I don't

let

> all of me out- I'm living in my own fucking shadow.

>

> They can't be better than me.

>

> Margaret, is that true?

>

> It just hurts. No, it's not true.

>

> How do you react? If they're better than me it feels like I am

> absolutely nothing. I don't want to be nothing.

>

> Sweetheart, if they have peace, that means you are nothing. Is that

> true? It always feels like that. And I'm asking you is it true? No,

> it's not true.

>

> How do you react with that belief? Always trying to prove they

can't

> be at peace because I don't want to feel the nothing pain and I'm

> feeling it anyways. I'm feeling it right now and I feel all the

angst

> of them always being in my mind, doing this horrible comparison

dance.

>

> How do you treat yourself? Like my life is not important. Their

life

> is more important. I don't feel the joy of being present with me

and

> accompanying me. I am lost in my mind.

>

> Who would you be? Gosh, I would be so free. I don't feel it but I

> would be so free.

>

> If they have peace, I am not nothing.

>

> I am everything.

>

> I can't say I feel any better, there's this anger rumbling around.

I

> only know I'm grateful to be able to share this with you and if

> anybody sees anything that could help me ...I am on my knees with

> this one...only three years of projecting on these people.

>

> love, margaret

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dearest Margaret,

This is wonderful. I've been reading THE TEACHERS OF ONE by a

Marvelly, a book of interviews with " evolved " nondual types (some of

whom I have met), and feeling like I'll never " get " it based on what

they say they experience...and I totally see myself in your work in

relation to those I call " teacher " or " spiritual friend. "

I found this in your piece:

If you pander to J. and J. they will take you seriously..is that true?

" Evolved " people need/enjoy your pandering to them.

" Evolved " people know it all.

J. and J. have peace.

Can you know any of this?

Love, Carol

> > Is it true that anyone is more evolved than you?

>

> No.

>

> How do you react? Horribly. I'm never good enough the way I am.

> Spirit is not loud and clear and big in me. It's over there with

them

> others.

>

> Who would you be? Perfect. Perfect. Just the way I am.

>

> No one is more evolved than me. I am not more evolved than anyone.

We

> are all equal.

>

> Thanks Steve.

>

> I think I just had a little shift. I went to have a shower and found

> myself saying " I am willing to let this go " in the shower. Even that

> felt a tiny bit scary because I could sense that if this story went

> it would mean I would have to soar...I would be light and free...oh

> my god, I wouldn't know myself. Then I noticed I was burping a bit

> and I remembered what a healer told me once that that's the

> gallbladder and one sometimes burbs when processing stuff if there's

> anger towards the self. Which led me to oh, this is how I abuse

> myself, with this big story of others' evolvement and peace. I'm

> hearing that I don't want to abuse myself anymore. Gosh, this feels

> good. We shall see:)

>

> Love, Margaret

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Living in others' shadows-bad language

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I am pissed off at how I live in the shadow of people I declare as

> > being more evolved and more peaceful than me.

> >

> > And I am sick to death of writing out the fucking Work on 'he

> > shouldn't be more evolved and more peaceful than me'.

> >

> > I am just mad right now and something tells me it's just good to

> feel

> > mad.

> >

> >

> >

> > I am angry at J and J. because I live my life in their shadow.

> >

> > I am angry at them for imposing on me all the time with thoughts

> > about them.

> >

> > I hate them for always being more evolved and further ahead than

me

> > and making sure I know it.

> >

> > I want them to disappear off the face of the earth FOREVER.

> >

> > They shouldn't ever think I am nothing to be reckoned with.

> >

> > I need them in order to feel hatred.

> >

> > They are arrogant, full of themselves, egos masquerading as oh-so-

> > spiritual.

> >

> > I don't ever want to feel jealous of them again.

> >

> >

> > Some great combination of jealousy and hatred of their arrogance

> > which I don't even know is there but I know I am so fucking

> arrogant.

> >

> > You have to live your life in their shadow.

> >

> > Is that true? It feels like it.

> >

> > Can you absolutely know it's true? No.

> >

> >

> > How do you react? Hatred. Hatred of them. I don't live. I'm

holding

> > myself back in some way. I'm holding myself down. I'm not good

> enough

> > because they are over there and they are doing it right- they know

> it

> > all - they know it all.

> > TA I know it all. I'm wanting to know it all, that's for sure.

> >

> > You can know it all. Is it true? No.

> > How do you live? Always searching, seeking, trying to figure it

> out,

> > trying to get information, trying to know it, how to do it, how to

> be

> > the very best help. It's my f......... religion. I don't relax

into

> > the not knowing. Right now I'm picturing J's voice with it's all-

> > knowing, all-together quality and I'm hating her. Even when she

> says

> > it's intense for her she's saying it in an all-knowing way - there

> is

> > no humility in her. No humility in me.

> >

> > Who would you be? Resting in self. Present. Not caring about what

I

> > know or don't know.

> >

> > TA. I can't know it all. The mind can't know it all -so finite,

> > limited.

> >

> > How do you treat them when you attach to " You have to live your

> > life in their shadow " ?

> >

> > Looking up to them. Makes me sick. I'm in their presence and I'm

> > monitoring to see what's OK or not. What shows that I'm aware.

> > Looking for proof that they are not all they are cracked up to be.

> > Looking for proof that they are evolved and then hurting. Feeling

a

> > core belief " They absolutely can't be better than me. "

> >

> > How do you treat yourself? There's nobody home. I'm on automatic.

> > I'm playing a fucking role. I don't care what's going on with me,

> I'm

> > totally pandering to their energy and how to be in order to be

> taken

> > seriously by them. I hate how I do this. I just hate it.

> >

> > who would you be without this belief 'you have to live in their

> > shadow'?

> >

> > Swelling up. Breathing. Bigger. Huge. Not caring about what the

> fuck

> > they are doing, whether they are suffering or not, awake or not.

> >

> > I don't have to live in their shadow.

> > I have to live in my shadow - that's what I'm doing when I don't

> let

> > all of me out- I'm living in my own fucking shadow.

> >

> > They can't be better than me.

> >

> > Margaret, is that true?

> >

> > It just hurts. No, it's not true.

> >

> > How do you react? If they're better than me it feels like I am

> > absolutely nothing. I don't want to be nothing.

> >

> > Sweetheart, if they have peace, that means you are nothing. Is

that

> > true? It always feels like that. And I'm asking you is it true?

No,

> > it's not true.

> >

> > How do you react with that belief? Always trying to prove they

> can't

> > be at peace because I don't want to feel the nothing pain and I'm

> > feeling it anyways. I'm feeling it right now and I feel all the

> angst

> > of them always being in my mind, doing this horrible comparison

> dance.

> >

> > How do you treat yourself? Like my life is not important. Their

> life

> > is more important. I don't feel the joy of being present with me

> and

> > accompanying me. I am lost in my mind.

> >

> > Who would you be? Gosh, I would be so free. I don't feel it but I

> > would be so free.

> >

> > If they have peace, I am not nothing.

> >

> > I am everything.

> >

> > I can't say I feel any better, there's this anger rumbling around.

> I

> > only know I'm grateful to be able to share this with you and if

> > anybody sees anything that could help me ...I am on my knees with

> > this one...only three years of projecting on these people.

> >

> > love, margaret

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Carol, oh spunky one,

** " If you pander to J. and J. they will take you seriously..is that

true? "

NO. How could anyone respect 'pandering'?

And I sure don't take myself seriously with it.

**' " Evolved " people need/enjoy your pandering to them.'

NO. I need to pander to me every moment that I am in their presence.

**' " Evolved " people know it all.'

I don't know.

**J. and J. have peace.

I can't know what they have.

Just responding to this feels like coming onto better ground.

love, margaret

> Dearest Margaret,

>

> This is wonderful. I've been reading THE TEACHERS OF ONE by a

> Marvelly, a book of interviews with " evolved " nondual types (some

of

> whom I have met), and feeling like I'll never " get " it based on

what

> they say they experience...and I totally see myself in your work in

> relation to those I call " teacher " or " spiritual friend. "

>

> I found this in your piece:

>

> If you pander to J. and J. they will take you seriously..is that

true?

>

> " Evolved " people need/enjoy your pandering to them.

>

> " Evolved " people know it all.

>

> J. and J. have peace.

>

> Can you know any of this?

>

> Love, Carol

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Margaret:

Whoever and whatever they (J. and J.) are, they are you. Steve D.

> > Dearest Margaret,

> >

> > This is wonderful. I've been reading THE TEACHERS OF ONE by

a

> > Marvelly, a book of interviews with " evolved " nondual types (some

> of

> > whom I have met), and feeling like I'll never " get " it based on

> what

> > they say they experience...and I totally see myself in your work

in

> > relation to those I call " teacher " or " spiritual friend. "

> >

> > I found this in your piece:

> >

> > If you pander to J. and J. they will take you seriously..is that

> true?

> >

> > " Evolved " people need/enjoy your pandering to them.

> >

> > " Evolved " people know it all.

> >

> > J. and J. have peace.

> >

> > Can you know any of this?

> >

> > Love, Carol

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

---Whoever and whatever they (J. and J.) are, they are you. Steve D.----

actually Steve. they are you...

btw, behind the humor is a real question...what Steve is the point of pseudo

cosmic statements like this? are you reminding Margaret that all she ever has to

relate to is a projection of her own thinking or are you simply sharing your

" religious belief " that comes so easily to the lips of non-dual new agers

everywhere that we are all one being? (as if we really understood the meaning of

this sentence that comes so quickly to our lips)--- the experience or

experiential understanding is so unlike the words or concepts we come up with I

want to express my skepticism that statements such as this ever have any value

for the speaker or the listener....all this " spiritual speak " ...I personally

don't find it useful or interesting...but maybe I'm in the minority...

[Guest guest]

Dear :

Thank you for sharing and right on , they are definitely

me/you/Margaret.

The point of my comment or as you say, " pseudo cosmic statements like

this " was to express the Truth, as I saw it at that moment, in regard

to Margaret's piece.

Of course, now that I know that you " personally don't find it useful

or interesting " ; I might use a different approach in responding to

, or not.

I definitely do not expect , or anyone else to agree with my

story. That would be hopeless; however, I do reserve my right to

freely express my story on this Yahoo Group.

It would appear from your comments and the emotions they expressed,

that were " seemingly " stirred up by my response to Margaret that our

world-view is different. How could we have a different world-view

and be One being? Beats me, but who would we be without our stories?

Steve D.

> ---Whoever and whatever they (J. and J.) are, they are you. Steve

D.----

>

> actually Steve. they are you...

>

> btw, behind the humor is a real question...what Steve is the point

of pseudo cosmic statements like this? are you reminding Margaret

that all she ever has to relate to is a projection of her own

thinking or are you simply sharing your " religious belief " that comes

so easily to the lips of non-dual new agers everywhere that we are

all one being? (as if we really understood the meaning of this

sentence that comes so quickly to our lips)--- the experience or

experiential understanding is so unlike the words or concepts we come

up with I want to express my skepticism that statements such as this

ever have any value for the speaker or the listener....all

this " spiritual speak " ...I personally don't find it useful or

interesting...but maybe I'm in the minority...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Steve,

I'm glad you didn't think I was trying to censor you in my post...I believe

you're " understanding " of what you're talking about is more superficial than you

realize but then that's just a thought in my head that I found compelling enough

to blurt out to everyone...

I believe people use their conceptual understanding to mask where they really

are and to mask thoughts they are actually attaching to that are in

contradiction to what they purport to believe..ie pretending to be experiencing

a freedom from obscurred thinking that is not actually the case...

ly, I believe you're doing that in your pasts...I have done it plenty and I

notice I don't think people should do it...Imagine that...an unexamined,

" unliberated " thought....LOL there's more where that one came from...

Seriously, I think there is a connection between people finding themselves

feeling " inferior " as Margaret was describing and other people pretending a

greater awareness or understanding than what they are actually experiencing...I

see it as a rampant phenomena in the " spiritual scene " .....

I actually have experienced in the inquiry circle I used to run that the more I

semi-consciously played the " role " of someone who deeply got the work and was

serene, peaceful, clear etc, the more the participants would think they were too

unevolved or could not be like I was...Of course they couldn't...I couldn't

either...but I could convince them I could...The concept " enlightenment " and all

the related concepts about oneness are dangerous in my my opinion because they

encourage us to reject ordinary human mind and try to be like our " religious

ideal " tells us we're supposed to be...which ironically is not remotely like the

actual experience that orignally gives rise to these thoughts/concepts...

Just having beliefs and sharing them....

[Guest guest]

--How could we have a different world-view

and be One being? Beats me, but who would we be without our stories?---

Steve,

I think I let in what you were getting at here more than when I first read

it...It is surely a swell experience that follows asking who would I be without

my story...and who would we be without our story....

I'm just less a fan of answering that question out loud in words than perhaps

ever before...

I'm still a fan of the question, however...

[Guest guest]

" other people pretending a

greater awareness or understanding than what they are actually

experiencing...I

see it as a rampant phenomena in the " spiritual scene " ..... "

I tend to agree with you here . I'm not sure how objective I can

be with this given how much I project and react around this topic. I

know I get tired of the satsang scene at times and everybody going

around 'trying'( my story) to have that soft-eyed, dewy, satsangy

fucking look ( yea, I'm really objective here!) and speaking in

hushed tones. Whoever said spirit doesn't speak out loud! Then again

sometimes I crave and love the quiet and I am so touched always by

Eckhart Tolle's teachings about mental stillness and silence.

When Steve D. gave me that feedback about J. and J. being me I first

felt frustrated as in, oh, God I know that. Then I remember thinking

OK this is God coming to help you...because I am so stuck in my

arrogance around this, it has become so painful and brings me to my

knees that I am ready to hear any bit of help that comes my way...so

I sat and thought 'they are you' and for a brief moment I realized

again that they don't even exist really, this is totally my

projection, just letting it in a tiny bit more ...and in that Steve

D.'s words were helpful.

And I do get tired of the spiritual scene. We don't know how to be

real anymore. We never knew how to be real, now we've just learned a

new, ego gratifying , feeling superior way of being fake. We're just

playing the very old, since the beginning of thought 'better

than/less than' game. The ego is truly a master.

On this topic of spiritual concepts , here comes KT:

Someone says to her " We're all one " . KT: 'I don't do theories. As

long as you think there's a and a you, there is not One. It's

just a concept.'

And 'The Truth has no respect for any concept, no matter how sweet,

drippy, pure it is. It will spit it out for lunch. We worship

concepts.'

Steve D. I've noticed that several times when Carol has been very

open and honest about her feelings and her experiences of life you

have a strong reaction of delight, respect, admiration for her. It

makes me think this is how you would like to be: open and honest

about your feelings and your experiences. Otherwise I don't think her

posts could provoke such a strong reaction in you.

I've had this thought for some time about you and I'm now finding the

courage to say it. I think it's coming laced with a bit of judgement

on my part because I'm wanting you to be more open. And I realize in

that, I'm wanting me to be more open and transparent. Thank you for

showing me this.

All the best, Margaret

> Steve,

> I'm glad you didn't think I was trying to censor you in my post...I

believe you're " understanding " of what you're talking about is more

superficial than you realize but then that's just a thought in my

head that I found compelling enough to blurt out to everyone...

>

> I believe people use their conceptual understanding to mask where

they really are and to mask thoughts they are actually attaching to

that are in contradiction to what they purport to believe..ie

pretending to be experiencing a freedom from obscurred thinking that

is not actually the case...

>

> ly, I believe you're doing that in your pasts...I have done it

plenty and I notice I don't think people should do it...Imagine

that...an unexamined, " unliberated " thought....LOL there's more where

that one came from...

>

> Seriously, I think there is a connection between people finding

themselves feeling " inferior " as Margaret was describing and other

people pretending a greater awareness or understanding than what they

are actually experiencing...I see it as a rampant phenomena in

the " spiritual scene " .....

>

> I actually have experienced in the inquiry circle I used to run

that the more I semi-consciously played the " role " of someone who

deeply got the work and was serene, peaceful, clear etc, the more

the participants would think they were too unevolved or could not be

like I was...Of course they couldn't...I couldn't either...but I

could convince them I could...The concept " enlightenment " and all the

related concepts about oneness are dangerous in my my opinion because

they encourage us to reject ordinary human mind and try to be like

our " religious ideal " tells us we're supposed to be...which

ironically is not remotely like the actual experience that orignally

gives rise to these thoughts/concepts...

>

> Just having beliefs and sharing them....

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Margaret, you wrote:

" Steve D. I've noticed that several times when Carol has been very

open and honest about her feelings and her experiences of life you

have a strong reaction of delight, respect, admiration for her. It

makes me think this is how you would like to be: open and honest

about your feelings and your experiences. Otherwise I don't think her

posts could provoke such a strong reaction in you. "

My experience has been that we adore what we like in ourselves when

other people express " those attributes " . When they do things that we

" despise about ourselves " we are triggered. We already ARE all these

things. Isn't it just too " supercilious " ? LOL

In what I read Steve does a good job being open and honest.

April

[Guest guest]

>

> " Steve D. I've noticed that several times when Carol has been very

> open and honest about her feelings and her experiences of life you

> have a strong reaction of delight, respect, admiration for her. It

> makes me think this is how you would like to be: open and honest

> about your feelings and your experiences. Otherwise I don't think

her

> posts could provoke such a strong reaction in you. "

>

> My experience has been that we adore what we like in ourselves when

> other people express " those attributes " . When they do things that

we

> " despise about ourselves " we are triggered. We already ARE all

these

> things. Isn't it just too " supercilious " ? LOL

>

> In what I read Steve does a good job being open and honest.

>

> April

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good stuff, Margaret. I had to laugh about the satsangy-smiley

thing...I have so often wanted to kick the ones sitting on the couch

all smiley-gooey. And so often I have been that dolt on the couch!

At times it has been a sincere dewy-eyed doltiness, at other times

put-on.

On the other hand, when I'm not being syrupy, I can get existential at

satsang -- looking around with the judgment that this is all a bunch

of self-indulgent middle-class crap...tell it to a Rwandan dying of

dystentary and see how self-realized they get, etc.

And it's all good material to hold up against the questions.

Meanwhile I'm wondering what is going on with me. I have been reading

this book called The Teachers of One, and crying my eyes out every

time I look at 's " Loving What Is " photo which I don't even

particularly like!

All this longing for...what? Any suggestions on what to work on?

Wah,

Carol

>

> " other people pretending a

> greater awareness or understanding than what they are actually

> experiencing...I

> see it as a rampant phenomena in the " spiritual scene " ..... "

>

> I tend to agree with you here . I'm not sure how objective I

can

> be with this given how much I project and react around this topic. I

> know I get tired of the satsang scene at times and everybody going

> around 'trying'( my story) to have that soft-eyed, dewy, satsangy

> fucking look ( yea, I'm really objective here!) and speaking in

> hushed tones. Whoever said spirit doesn't speak out loud! Then again

> sometimes I crave and love the quiet and I am so touched always by

> Eckhart Tolle's teachings about mental stillness and silence.

>

> When Steve D. gave me that feedback about J. and J. being me I first

> felt frustrated as in, oh, God I know that. Then I remember thinking

> OK this is God coming to help you...because I am so stuck in my

> arrogance around this, it has become so painful and brings me to my

> knees that I am ready to hear any bit of help that comes my way...so

> I sat and thought 'they are you' and for a brief moment I realized

> again that they don't even exist really, this is totally my

> projection, just letting it in a tiny bit more ...and in that Steve

> D.'s words were helpful.

>

> And I do get tired of the spiritual scene. We don't know how to be

> real anymore. We never knew how to be real, now we've just learned a

> new, ego gratifying , feeling superior way of being fake. We're just

> playing the very old, since the beginning of thought 'better

> than/less than' game. The ego is truly a master.

>

> On this topic of spiritual concepts , here comes KT:

>

> Someone says to her " We're all one " . KT: 'I don't do theories. As

> long as you think there's a and a you, there is not One. It's

> just a concept.'

>

> And 'The Truth has no respect for any concept, no matter how sweet,

> drippy, pure it is. It will spit it out for lunch. We worship

> concepts.'

>

> Steve D. I've noticed that several times when Carol has been very

> open and honest about her feelings and her experiences of life you

> have a strong reaction of delight, respect, admiration for her. It

> makes me think this is how you would like to be: open and honest

> about your feelings and your experiences. Otherwise I don't think

her

> posts could provoke such a strong reaction in you.

>

> I've had this thought for some time about you and I'm now finding

the

> courage to say it. I think it's coming laced with a bit of judgement

> on my part because I'm wanting you to be more open. And I realize in

> that, I'm wanting me to be more open and transparent. Thank you for

> showing me this.

>

> All the best, Margaret

>

>

>

>

>

> > Steve,

> > I'm glad you didn't think I was trying to censor you in my

post...I

> believe you're " understanding " of what you're talking about is more

> superficial than you realize but then that's just a thought in my

> head that I found compelling enough to blurt out to everyone...

> >

> > I believe people use their conceptual understanding to mask where

> they really are and to mask thoughts they are actually attaching to

> that are in contradiction to what they purport to believe..ie

> pretending to be experiencing a freedom from obscurred thinking that

> is not actually the case...

> >

> > ly, I believe you're doing that in your pasts...I have done

it

> plenty and I notice I don't think people should do it...Imagine

> that...an unexamined, " unliberated " thought....LOL there's more

where

> that one came from...

> >

> > Seriously, I think there is a connection between people finding

> themselves feeling " inferior " as Margaret was describing and other

> people pretending a greater awareness or understanding than what

they

> are actually experiencing...I see it as a rampant phenomena in

> the " spiritual scene " .....

> >

> > I actually have experienced in the inquiry circle I used to run

> that the more I semi-consciously played the " role " of someone who

> deeply got the work and was serene, peaceful, clear etc, the more

> the participants would think they were too unevolved or could not be

> like I was...Of course they couldn't...I couldn't either...but I

> could convince them I could...The concept " enlightenment " and all

the

> related concepts about oneness are dangerous in my my opinion

because

> they encourage us to reject ordinary human mind and try to be like

> our " religious ideal " tells us we're supposed to be...which

> ironically is not remotely like the actual experience that orignally

> gives rise to these thoughts/concepts...

> >

> > Just having beliefs and sharing them....

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this messag

[Guest guest]

'I have been reading

this book called The Teachers of One, and crying my eyes out every

time I look at 's " Loving What Is " photo which I don't even

particularly like!'

I so relate to this. I think it's a very good sign or so I want to

believe. I think the tears are just that deep sadness that you are

not at home or to be politically correct that you believe you are not

at home. The tears are your Work...maybe the no. 3 of the belief " I'm

not at home'. It's the opening of the heart, the longing to rest in

the love that you are.

Rejoice in your tears, sweet sister. I love you.

Margaret

> Good stuff, Margaret. I had to laugh about the satsangy-smiley

> thing...I have so often wanted to kick the ones sitting on the

couch

> all smiley-gooey. And so often I have been that dolt on the

couch!

> At times it has been a sincere dewy-eyed doltiness, at other times

> put-on.

>

> On the other hand, when I'm not being syrupy, I can get existential

at

> satsang -- looking around with the judgment that this is all a

bunch

> of self-indulgent middle-class crap...tell it to a Rwandan dying of

> dystentary and see how self-realized they get, etc.

>

> And it's all good material to hold up against the questions.

>

> Meanwhile I'm wondering what is going on with me. I have been

reading

> this book called The Teachers of One, and crying my eyes out every

> time I look at 's " Loving What Is " photo which I don't even

> particularly like!

>

> All this longing for...what? Any suggestions on what to work on?

>

> Wah,

> Carol

>

>

[Guest guest]

Meanwhile I'm wondering what is going on with me. I have been reading

this book called The Teachers of One, and crying my eyes out every

time I look at 's " Loving What Is " photo which I don't even

particularly like!

All this longing for...what? Any suggestions on what to work on?

Carol,

How about the notion that you should be doing the work on something related to

this?

[Guest guest]

Thank you, . Truthfully I feel like I'm just supposed to cry

now, to let the tenderness be.

And Bev and Margaret, I want to consider what you have said...it all

sounds right, and I'm not able to look at it yet. The tears want to

have their life.

Love, Carol

>

> Meanwhile I'm wondering what is going on with me. I have been

reading

> this book called The Teachers of One, and crying my eyes out every

> time I look at 's " Loving What Is " photo which I don't even

> particularly like!

>

> All this longing for...what? Any suggestions on what to work on?

>

> Carol,

> How about the notion that you should be doing the work on something

related to this?

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been re

[Guest guest]

Carol,

To me it is apparent that a very wonderful process is alive and on-going in you

....I think it is more than fine to give it space to be as it is...And I bet you

know that, I was just agreeing with you..

B

[Guest guest]

Dear Margaret:

I was so happy to read your words: " I realized

again that they don't even exist really, this is totally my

projection, just letting it in a tiny bit more ...and in that Steve

D.'s words were helpful. "

That was exactly the meaning I was trying to convey in my prior post

to you. I am glad that the meaning came through.

Steve D.

>

> " other people pretending a

> greater awareness or understanding than what they are actually

> experiencing...I

> see it as a rampant phenomena in the " spiritual scene " ..... "

>

> I tend to agree with you here . I'm not sure how objective I

can

> be with this given how much I project and react around this topic.

I

> know I get tired of the satsang scene at times and everybody going

> around 'trying'( my story) to have that soft-eyed, dewy, satsangy

> fucking look ( yea, I'm really objective here!) and speaking in

> hushed tones. Whoever said spirit doesn't speak out loud! Then

again

> sometimes I crave and love the quiet and I am so touched always by

> Eckhart Tolle's teachings about mental stillness and silence.

>

> When Steve D. gave me that feedback about J. and J. being me I

first

> felt frustrated as in, oh, God I know that. Then I remember

thinking

> OK this is God coming to help you...because I am so stuck in my

> arrogance around this, it has become so painful and brings me to my

> knees that I am ready to hear any bit of help that comes my

way...so

> I sat and thought 'they are you' and for a brief moment I realized

> again that they don't even exist really, this is totally my

> projection, just letting it in a tiny bit more ...and in that Steve

> D.'s words were helpful.

>

> And I do get tired of the spiritual scene. We don't know how to be

> real anymore. We never knew how to be real, now we've just learned

a

> new, ego gratifying , feeling superior way of being fake. We're

just

> playing the very old, since the beginning of thought 'better

> than/less than' game. The ego is truly a master.

>

> On this topic of spiritual concepts , here comes KT:

>

> Someone says to her " We're all one " . KT: 'I don't do theories. As

> long as you think there's a and a you, there is not One. It's

> just a concept.'

>

> And 'The Truth has no respect for any concept, no matter how sweet,

> drippy, pure it is. It will spit it out for lunch. We worship

> concepts.'

>

> Steve D. I've noticed that several times when Carol has been very

> open and honest about her feelings and her experiences of life you

> have a strong reaction of delight, respect, admiration for her. It

> makes me think this is how you would like to be: open and honest

> about your feelings and your experiences. Otherwise I don't think

her

> posts could provoke such a strong reaction in you.

>

> I've had this thought for some time about you and I'm now finding

the

> courage to say it. I think it's coming laced with a bit of

judgement

> on my part because I'm wanting you to be more open. And I realize

in

> that, I'm wanting me to be more open and transparent. Thank you for

> showing me this.

>

> All the best, Margaret

>

>

>

>

>

> > Steve,

> > I'm glad you didn't think I was trying to censor you in my

post...I

> believe you're " understanding " of what you're talking about is more

> superficial than you realize but then that's just a thought in my

> head that I found compelling enough to blurt out to everyone...

> >

> > I believe people use their conceptual understanding to mask where

> they really are and to mask thoughts they are actually attaching to

> that are in contradiction to what they purport to believe..ie

> pretending to be experiencing a freedom from obscurred thinking

that

> is not actually the case...

> >

> > ly, I believe you're doing that in your pasts...I have done

it

> plenty and I notice I don't think people should do it...Imagine

> that...an unexamined, " unliberated " thought....LOL there's more

where

> that one came from...

> >

> > Seriously, I think there is a connection between people finding

> themselves feeling " inferior " as Margaret was describing and other

> people pretending a greater awareness or understanding than what

they

> are actually experiencing...I see it as a rampant phenomena in

> the " spiritual scene " .....

> >

> > I actually have experienced in the inquiry circle I used to run

> that the more I semi-consciously played the " role " of someone who

> deeply got the work and was serene, peaceful, clear etc, the more

> the participants would think they were too unevolved or could not

be

> like I was...Of course they couldn't...I couldn't either...but I

> could convince them I could...The concept " enlightenment " and all

the

> related concepts about oneness are dangerous in my my opinion

because

> they encourage us to reject ordinary human mind and try to be like

> our " religious ideal " tells us we're supposed to be...which

> ironically is not remotely like the actual experience that

orignally

> gives rise to these thoughts/concepts...

> >

> > Just having beliefs and sharing them....

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear April:

Thank you.

Steve D.

>

> " Steve D. I've noticed that several times when Carol has been very

> open and honest about her feelings and her experiences of life you

> have a strong reaction of delight, respect, admiration for her. It

> makes me think this is how you would like to be: open and honest

> about your feelings and your experiences. Otherwise I don't think

her

> posts could provoke such a strong reaction in you. "

>

> My experience has been that we adore what we like in ourselves when

> other people express " those attributes " . When they do things that

we

> " despise about ourselves " we are triggered. We already ARE all

these

> things. Isn't it just too " supercilious " ? LOL

>

> In what I read Steve does a good job being open and honest.

>

> April

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Margaret:

All I know about this is that when Carol or anyone opens themselves

and speaks the pure truth, it touches my heart.

People have accused me of being " too " open and honest all my life.

TA: I have accused me of being too open and honest all my life.

TA: I could be too open and honest?

TA: My thinking is too honest and open?

Well, you've got me Margaret, I don't know what I think about this.

Wow, that's refreshing. What's more, I don't need to know what I

think about this. I don't need to think about this at all.

I don't need to think at all.

I don't need at all.

What a blast! I am learning more and more about nothing.

Thanks Margaret.

Steve D.

> >

> > " Steve D. I've noticed that several times when Carol has been

very

> > open and honest about her feelings and her experiences of life

you

> > have a strong reaction of delight, respect, admiration for her.

It

> > makes me think this is how you would like to be: open and honest

> > about your feelings and your experiences. Otherwise I don't think

> her

> > posts could provoke such a strong reaction in you. "

> >

> > My experience has been that we adore what we like in ourselves

when

> > other people express " those attributes " . When they do things

that

> we

> > " despise about ourselves " we are triggered. We already ARE all

> these

> > things. Isn't it just too " supercilious " ? LOL

> >

> > In what I read Steve does a good job being open and honest.

> >

> > April

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear Carol:

I was quite tempted to express a strong reaction of delight, respect,

and admiration for you for sharing your story regarding your tears

from looking at 's photo. But, you know, I don't think I will.

However, I really do relate to what you are going through. My story

is that is a good thing and still part of the effects of the

Cleanse. Maybe you want to go home?

Maybe I want to go home? Definitely!

I am not home? Is that true?

Where is my proof?

Oh well, all I know is that I really don't know.

Steve D.

It

makes me think this is how you would like to be:

> >

> > " other people pretending a

> > greater awareness or understanding than what they are actually

> > experiencing...I

> > see it as a rampant phenomena in the " spiritual scene " ..... "

> >

> > I tend to agree with you here . I'm not sure how objective I

> can

> > be with this given how much I project and react around this

topic. I

> > know I get tired of the satsang scene at times and everybody

going

> > around 'trying'( my story) to have that soft-eyed, dewy, satsangy

> > fucking look ( yea, I'm really objective here!) and speaking in

> > hushed tones. Whoever said spirit doesn't speak out loud! Then

again

> > sometimes I crave and love the quiet and I am so touched always

by

> > Eckhart Tolle's teachings about mental stillness and silence.

> >

> > When Steve D. gave me that feedback about J. and J. being me I

first

> > felt frustrated as in, oh, God I know that. Then I remember

thinking

> > OK this is God coming to help you...because I am so stuck in my

> > arrogance around this, it has become so painful and brings me to

my

> > knees that I am ready to hear any bit of help that comes my

way...so

> > I sat and thought 'they are you' and for a brief moment I

realized

> > again that they don't even exist really, this is totally my

> > projection, just letting it in a tiny bit more ...and in that

Steve

> > D.'s words were helpful.

> >

> > And I do get tired of the spiritual scene. We don't know how to

be

> > real anymore. We never knew how to be real, now we've just

learned a

> > new, ego gratifying , feeling superior way of being fake. We're

just

> > playing the very old, since the beginning of thought 'better

> > than/less than' game. The ego is truly a master.

> >

> > On this topic of spiritual concepts , here comes KT:

> >

> > Someone says to her " We're all one " . KT: 'I don't do theories. As

> > long as you think there's a and a you, there is not One.

It's

> > just a concept.'

> >

> > And 'The Truth has no respect for any concept, no matter how

sweet,

> > drippy, pure it is. It will spit it out for lunch. We worship

> > concepts.'

> >

> > Steve D. I've noticed that several times when Carol has been very

> > open and honest about her feelings and her experiences of life

you

> > have a strong reaction of delight, respect, admiration for her.

It

> > makes me think this is how you would like to be: open and honest

> > about your feelings and your experiences. Otherwise I don't think

> her

> > posts could provoke such a strong reaction in you.

> >

> > I've had this thought for some time about you and I'm now finding

> the

> > courage to say it. I think it's coming laced with a bit of

judgement

> > on my part because I'm wanting you to be more open. And I realize

in

> > that, I'm wanting me to be more open and transparent. Thank you

for

> > showing me this.

> >

> > All the best, Margaret

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > Steve,

> > > I'm glad you didn't think I was trying to censor you in my

> post...I

> > believe you're " understanding " of what you're talking about is

more

> > superficial than you realize but then that's just a thought in my

> > head that I found compelling enough to blurt out to everyone...

> > >

> > > I believe people use their conceptual understanding to mask

where

> > they really are and to mask thoughts they are actually attaching

to

> > that are in contradiction to what they purport to believe..ie

> > pretending to be experiencing a freedom from obscurred thinking

that

> > is not actually the case...

> > >

> > > ly, I believe you're doing that in your pasts...I have

done

> it

> > plenty and I notice I don't think people should do it...Imagine

> > that...an unexamined, " unliberated " thought....LOL there's more

> where

> > that one came from...

> > >

> > > Seriously, I think there is a connection between people finding

> > themselves feeling " inferior " as Margaret was describing and

other

> > people pretending a greater awareness or understanding than what

> they

> > are actually experiencing...I see it as a rampant phenomena in

> > the " spiritual scene " .....

> > >

> > > I actually have experienced in the inquiry circle I used to run

> > that the more I semi-consciously played the " role " of someone who

> > deeply got the work and was serene, peaceful, clear etc, the

more

> > the participants would think they were too unevolved or could not

be

> > like I was...Of course they couldn't...I couldn't either...but I

> > could convince them I could...The concept " enlightenment " and all

> the

> > related concepts about oneness are dangerous in my my opinion

> because

> > they encourage us to reject ordinary human mind and try to be

like

> > our " religious ideal " tells us we're supposed to be...which

> > ironically is not remotely like the actual experience that

orignally

> > gives rise to these thoughts/concepts...

> > >

> > > Just having beliefs and sharing them....

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this messag

[Guest guest]

Well, Steve D. it's pretty obvious that was all my story and my own

judgement of myself. I'm grateful for the opportunity to check it out

and see it had nothing to do with you at all. I suspect this little

experience will help me with future projections.

Thanks for your good sportsmanship.

love you, margaret

-- In Loving-what-is , " SteveDaily <lafdaily@a...> "

<lafdaily@a...> wrote:

> Dear Margaret:

>

> All I know about this is that when Carol or anyone opens themselves

> and speaks the pure truth, it touches my heart.

> People have accused me of being " too " open and honest all my life.

> TA: I have accused me of being too open and honest all my life.

> TA: I could be too open and honest?

> TA: My thinking is too honest and open?

>

> Well, you've got me Margaret, I don't know what I think about

this.

> Wow, that's refreshing. What's more, I don't need to know what I

> think about this. I don't need to think about this at all.

> I don't need to think at all.

> I don't need at all.

> What a blast! I am learning more and more about nothing.

> Thanks Margaret.

> Steve D.

>

]

[Guest guest]

Dear Margaret:

You are very welcome. Love you, Steve D.

> > Dear Margaret:

> >

> > All I know about this is that when Carol or anyone opens

themselves

> > and speaks the pure truth, it touches my heart.

> > People have accused me of being " too " open and honest all my life.

> > TA: I have accused me of being too open and honest all my life.

> > TA: I could be too open and honest?

> > TA: My thinking is too honest and open?

> >

> > Well, you've got me Margaret, I don't know what I think about

> this.

> > Wow, that's refreshing. What's more, I don't need to know what I

> > think about this. I don't need to think about this at all.

> > I don't need to think at all.

> > I don't need at all.

> > What a blast! I am learning more and more about nothing.

> > Thanks Margaret.

> > Steve D.

> >

> ]