Re: Reservations - Have i done my bit?

[Guest guest]

Dear Ashish ( and everybody ),

Yes I am with you to condemn the beating of few students protesting against a

constitutional move, but is there anyone with me while I protest against:

1. Torching of Dalits in Bihar , Wednesday January 4 2006 08:58 IST, BELLARY,

newindpress.com

2. Haryana panchayats issue 'caste' diktats, Saturday, February 4, 2006

(Bhiwani), NDTV

3. " If you are a Dalit, you can’t hoist the national flag in Nasik " , Aditya

Ghosh, Sunday, February 05, 2006 23:20 IST, DNA Mumbai

4. Dalit marriage procession disrupted, tension in Meerut , Meerut, Feb 03

2006, Zee News

5. Five innocent Dalits were lynched to death allegedly by the police in

connivance with local VHP activist on 15th October 2002 at Dulina Police Post,

Jhajjar in Haryana. Even after 16 days of this brutal killings of Dalits no

action has been taken either by the police or the state government.

……… and thousands of similar crimes which occur everyday and either go

unreported or no action is taken against them.

Yes I am all for `MERIT`, but what is the concept of merit in India. Merit is

considered among people with equal education and opportunity. If few people have

access to private schools, tuitions and coaching classes and majority goes to

school where even the basic infrastructure is missing, where is the comparison.

So merit in education is actually capacity to “buy education”?

Now about opportunity : If a post of specialist is advertised, there are

hundreds of applicants, but who gets the job ?.......The meritorious??

NO……the one with the biggest Pull, so where does it leaves people who have no

connections and money but only education.

How can there be equal opportunity for everyone when the dominant caste is so

proud of there prejudices and discrimination , so can they actually judge the

meritorious? Merit is relevant when educational and occupational attainments are

not related to family background or other circumstantial parameters.

Let us look at the merit of the doctors working in the most prestigious

hospitals of the country. If the Indian doctors and medical specialists are so

meritorious than why is that most of the VVIPs run away to foreign countries at

the simplest of illnesses. Even the former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee,

an ardent supporter of Swadeshi had to call an NRI orthopedic surgeon for his

knee operation.

By the way, has there even been any study to prove that general category

candidates are more intelligent or more hardworking.

What has the meritorious given to the nation in last decade:

a. Justice ( Lal murder case, Bhopal gas tragedy, Rehabilitation

of displaced families of Narmada Dam. In one of the ruling in a rape case a

high court judge observed “a high caste man can not rape a lower caste woman”!!)

b. The education system in India- low literacy rate, low standard of

education esp. in govt. schools)

c. Rampant female foeticide and devdasi system?

d. Rational thinking ….What kind of culture and education makes one

believe that a person belonging to a particular caste is less or more

intelligent with better work ethics?. Why nobody wonder that how much %tage of

population controls money, media, political power, law, and how many of them are

associated with scams. …….20-30%. Population and 90% scams. Does it show them to

be more honest, hardworking, or loyal to the Country? ( and to speak of rang de

basanti……..)

e. How many great inventions, discoveries are attributed to this nation

with second largest population.

f. Sports- What achievements are there to talk about?

Right to education, livelihood and right to earn should be for everyone. Its

better to try and equalize the society when we still have time rather than wait

when the oppressed really get loose and take the matter in their own hands

Sanjay

( With

no malice towards anyone)

( Yes I

am doing my bit)

---------------------------------

New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

[Guest guest]

Dear Ashish ( and everybody ),

Yes I am with you to condemn the beating of few students protesting against a

constitutional move, but is there anyone with me while I protest against:

1. Torching of Dalits in Bihar , Wednesday January 4 2006 08:58 IST, BELLARY,

newindpress.com

2. Haryana panchayats issue 'caste' diktats, Saturday, February 4, 2006

(Bhiwani), NDTV

3. " If you are a Dalit, you can’t hoist the national flag in Nasik " , Aditya

Ghosh, Sunday, February 05, 2006 23:20 IST, DNA Mumbai

4. Dalit marriage procession disrupted, tension in Meerut , Meerut, Feb 03

2006, Zee News

5. Five innocent Dalits were lynched to death allegedly by the police in

connivance with local VHP activist on 15th October 2002 at Dulina Police Post,

Jhajjar in Haryana. Even after 16 days of this brutal killings of Dalits no

action has been taken either by the police or the state government.

……… and thousands of similar crimes which occur everyday and either go

unreported or no action is taken against them.

Yes I am all for `MERIT`, but what is the concept of merit in India. Merit is

considered among people with equal education and opportunity. If few people have

access to private schools, tuitions and coaching classes and majority goes to

school where even the basic infrastructure is missing, where is the comparison.

So merit in education is actually capacity to “buy education”?

Now about opportunity : If a post of specialist is advertised, there are

hundreds of applicants, but who gets the job ?.......The meritorious??

NO……the one with the biggest Pull, so where does it leaves people who have no

connections and money but only education.

How can there be equal opportunity for everyone when the dominant caste is so

proud of there prejudices and discrimination , so can they actually judge the

meritorious? Merit is relevant when educational and occupational attainments are

not related to family background or other circumstantial parameters.

Let us look at the merit of the doctors working in the most prestigious

hospitals of the country. If the Indian doctors and medical specialists are so

meritorious than why is that most of the VVIPs run away to foreign countries at

the simplest of illnesses. Even the former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee,

an ardent supporter of Swadeshi had to call an NRI orthopedic surgeon for his

knee operation.

By the way, has there even been any study to prove that general category

candidates are more intelligent or more hardworking.

What has the meritorious given to the nation in last decade:

a. Justice ( Lal murder case, Bhopal gas tragedy, Rehabilitation

of displaced families of Narmada Dam. In one of the ruling in a rape case a

high court judge observed “a high caste man can not rape a lower caste woman”!!)

b. The education system in India- low literacy rate, low standard of

education esp. in govt. schools)

c. Rampant female foeticide and devdasi system?

d. Rational thinking ….What kind of culture and education makes one

believe that a person belonging to a particular caste is less or more

intelligent with better work ethics?. Why nobody wonder that how much %tage of

population controls money, media, political power, law, and how many of them are

associated with scams. …….20-30%. Population and 90% scams. Does it show them to

be more honest, hardworking, or loyal to the Country? ( and to speak of rang de

basanti……..)

e. How many great inventions, discoveries are attributed to this nation

with second largest population.

f. Sports- What achievements are there to talk about?

Right to education, livelihood and right to earn should be for everyone. Its

better to try and equalize the society when we still have time rather than wait

when the oppressed really get loose and take the matter in their own hands

Sanjay

( With

no malice towards anyone)

( Yes I

am doing my bit)

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone.

[Guest guest]

There is no mistaking the sentiments and i have no disagrement with you on most

of the issues you have raised.

answer two questions

1. is reservations the answer to all the ills that you have listed?

2. did u ever feel discriminated?

Regards

A

Sanjay Prakash wrote:

Dear Ashish ( and everybody ),

Yes I am with you to condemn the beating of few students protesting against a

constitutional move, but is there anyone with me while I protest against:

1. Torching of Dalits in Bihar , Wednesday January 4 2006 08:58 IST, BELLARY,

newindpress.com

2. Haryana panchayats issue 'caste' diktats, Saturday, February 4, 2006

(Bhiwani), NDTV

3. " If you are a Dalit, you can’t hoist the national flag in Nasik " , Aditya

Ghosh, Sunday, February 05, 2006 23:20 IST, DNA Mumbai

4. Dalit marriage procession disrupted, tension in Meerut , Meerut, Feb 03

2006, Zee News

5. Five innocent Dalits were lynched to death allegedly by the police in

connivance with local VHP activist on 15th October 2002 at Dulina Police Post,

Jhajjar in Haryana. Even after 16 days of this brutal killings of Dalits no

action has been taken either by the police or the state government.

……… and thousands of similar crimes which occur everyday and either go

unreported or no action is taken against them.

Yes I am all for `MERIT`, but what is the concept of merit in India. Merit is

considered among people with equal education and opportunity. If few people have

access to private schools, tuitions and coaching classes and majority goes to

school where even the basic infrastructure is missing, where is the comparison.

So merit in education is actually capacity to “buy education”?

Now about opportunity : If a post of specialist is advertised, there are

hundreds of applicants, but who gets the job ?.......The meritorious??

NO……the one with the biggest Pull, so where does it leaves people who have no

connections and money but only education.

How can there be equal opportunity for everyone when the dominant caste is so

proud of there prejudices and discrimination , so can they actually judge the

meritorious? Merit is relevant when educational and occupational attainments are

not related to family background or other circumstantial parameters.

Let us look at the merit of the doctors working in the most prestigious

hospitals of the country. If the Indian doctors and medical specialists are so

meritorious than why is that most of the VVIPs run away to foreign countries at

the simplest of illnesses. Even the former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee,

an ardent supporter of Swadeshi had to call an NRI orthopedic surgeon for his

knee operation.

By the way, has there even been any study to prove that general category

candidates are more intelligent or more hardworking.

What has the meritorious given to the nation in last decade:

a. Justice ( Lal murder case, Bhopal gas tragedy, Rehabilitation

of displaced families of Narmada Dam. In one of the ruling in a rape case a

high court judge observed “a high caste man can not rape a lower caste woman”!!)

b. The education system in India- low literacy rate, low standard of

education esp. in govt. schools)

c. Rampant female foeticide and devdasi system?

d. Rational thinking ….What kind of culture and education makes one

believe that a person belonging to a particular caste is less or more

intelligent with better work ethics?. Why nobody wonder that how much %tage of

population controls money, media, political power, law, and how many of them are

associated with scams. …….20-30%. Population and 90% scams. Does it show them to

be more honest, hardworking, or loyal to the Country? ( and to speak of rang de

basanti……..)

e. How many great inventions, discoveries are attributed to this nation

with second largest population.

f. Sports- What achievements are there to talk about?

Right to education, livelihood and right to earn should be for everyone. Its

better to try and equalize the society when we still have time rather than wait

when the oppressed really get loose and take the matter in their own hands

Sanjay

( With

no malice towards anyone)

( Yes I

am doing my bit)

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone.

[Guest guest]

Sanju, (and everyone)

That was an excellent piece of writing and it makes me very proud that you

are my friend....

First Ashish, then Sanjay Praksh and now me... makes the discussion complete

with the 1993 batch trio on the group...!!!

The E-mail is very thought provoking and I could not resist writing back and

I am sure that enlightened citizens would do so too.. I would like to begin

with the fact that the e-mail was without malice to everybody, and no

offence taken... so, I think that my thoughts would also be noted with

neutrality, maybe with a pinch of salt and without malice..

I 100% agree with your thoughts on the view of voilence and crimes towards

dalits... its a very shameful act and it makes me very sad to read these

kinds of stories where on one end, we see an " India shining " and on the

other had, we read these kind of regressive news......

The topic on reservations is a very emotional one.. for everyone.. those who

have been involved and even those who are not... as as is for every topic,

there are two sides to a story. Consider students who are coached right

from they go to high school that they have to get good marks and become a

doctor or an engineer.. the students slog and work under tremendous

pressure.... and there are three kinds of results for this:

1) If a student gets good grades, he will go straight away to a medical

school...

2) If he does not do well, he wil consider other career options

3) but there are a lot of students that are in the grey area... they have

the good grades, but maybe lack by a percent or two... now, these are the

people who are affected the most by the current social system. ... and these

are the people who will be affected the most by reservations.

I am all for caste based reservations.. yes I am.. I think that there are

several people in India, in the backward areas who are devoid of good

education and reservation is a good ways and means for them to give back to

the community, and this will lead to a social equality in the long run....

however, now we see, children of rich businessmen, white collar people

working in Bombay, or even connected to politicians, who come from well to

do families , educated families and yet secure seats in college under the

reserved category... now, is there any difference in these candidates and

candidates who are coming from an open category.. socioeconomically?

In my opinion, and that is just my opinion.... there should be

reservations... but the reservations should not be only on the basis of

caste... they should be based on Caste and socioeconomic status... only then

it will be a system which will help the people for whom it was designed in

the first places.. thus according to me, there should be following criteria

for reservations:

1) Caste AND socioeconomic status ( not caste alone)

2) Soci economic status alone, irrespective of caste : this would help

meritorious students from all over the country... kids from villages, urban

slums, mill workers, famine affected areas.. everyone...

India is a social democracy and in this scenario, the government should

provide to everybody, including the weaker sections of the society, but I

feel that the politicians should include a just and a fair way of including

everyone in the reservation system and not just consolidating certain

sections of the society as " vote banks " .. and the protests that we have

after almost 60 years of independence are nothing but a reflection of a

failed selfish political system which constantly reinvents itself with

" appeasement " policies.... if they used their grey matter to find a solution

to the crowded local trains and potholes of Bombay, the world would be a

better place.....

I know again that this forum is not supposed to be the place for me to

express thse views... but I feel that everyone on these e-groups are my

friends and I want to express my views... I do not want to ignite a

controversy of any sorts here.. we are all mature professional individuals

and we can always carry out a healthy discussion on this forum...

WITHOUTany personal attacks....I hope everyone would respect that

once again,

with lot of love and no malice towards anybody

Ameet 1993

[Guest guest]

Thanks for two very good justifications by Dr. Ameet Chimote and Dr. Sanjay

Prakash for the reservation policy.

Wish I was also born in one of the so many reserved categories. Future of me

and my family would have been secured.

I pray god not to give rebirth to me in RESERVED INDIA. If at all he wants

me to go back to India, then I should be born as a RESERVED SPICY.

Dr. Lalit Taori ( 1980 )

Re: Reservations - Have i done my bit?

> Sanju, (and everyone)

>

> That was an excellent piece of writing and it makes me very proud that you

> are my friend....

> First Ashish, then Sanjay Praksh and now me... makes the discussion

complete

> with the 1993 batch trio on the group...!!!

>

> The E-mail is very thought provoking and I could not resist writing back

and

> I am sure that enlightened citizens would do so too.. I would like to

begin

> with the fact that the e-mail was without malice to everybody, and no

> offence taken... so, I think that my thoughts would also be noted with

> neutrality, maybe with a pinch of salt and without malice..

>

> I 100% agree with your thoughts on the view of voilence and crimes towards

> dalits... its a very shameful act and it makes me very sad to read these

> kinds of stories where on one end, we see an " India shining " and on the

> other had, we read these kind of regressive news......

>

> The topic on reservations is a very emotional one.. for everyone.. those

who

> have been involved and even those who are not... as as is for every

topic,

> there are two sides to a story. Consider students who are coached right

> from they go to high school that they have to get good marks and become a

> doctor or an engineer.. the students slog and work under tremendous

> pressure.... and there are three kinds of results for this:

>

> 1) If a student gets good grades, he will go straight away to a medical

> school...

>

> 2) If he does not do well, he wil consider other career options

>

> 3) but there are a lot of students that are in the grey area... they have

> the good grades, but maybe lack by a percent or two... now, these are the

> people who are affected the most by the current social system. ... and

these

> are the people who will be affected the most by reservations.

>

> I am all for caste based reservations.. yes I am.. I think that there are

> several people in India, in the backward areas who are devoid of good

> education and reservation is a good ways and means for them to give back

to

> the community, and this will lead to a social equality in the long run....

> however, now we see, children of rich businessmen, white collar people

> working in Bombay, or even connected to politicians, who come from well to

> do families , educated families and yet secure seats in college under the

> reserved category... now, is there any difference in these candidates and

> candidates who are coming from an open category.. socioeconomically?

>

> In my opinion, and that is just my opinion.... there should be

> reservations... but the reservations should not be only on the basis of

> caste... they should be based on Caste and socioeconomic status... only

then

> it will be a system which will help the people for whom it was designed in

> the first places.. thus according to me, there should be following

criteria

> for reservations:

>

> 1) Caste AND socioeconomic status ( not caste alone)

>

> 2) Soci economic status alone, irrespective of caste : this would help

> meritorious students from all over the country... kids from villages,

urban

> slums, mill workers, famine affected areas.. everyone...

>

> India is a social democracy and in this scenario, the government should

> provide to everybody, including the weaker sections of the society, but I

> feel that the politicians should include a just and a fair way of

including

> everyone in the reservation system and not just consolidating certain

> sections of the society as " vote banks " .. and the protests that we have

> after almost 60 years of independence are nothing but a reflection of a

> failed selfish political system which constantly reinvents itself with

> " appeasement " policies.... if they used their grey matter to find a

solution

> to the crowded local trains and potholes of Bombay, the world would be a

> better place.....

>

> I know again that this forum is not supposed to be the place for me to

> express thse views... but I feel that everyone on these e-groups are my

> friends and I want to express my views... I do not want to ignite a

> controversy of any sorts here.. we are all mature professional individuals

> and we can always carry out a healthy discussion on this forum...

> WITHOUTany personal attacks....I hope everyone would respect that

>

> once again,

> with lot of love and no malice towards anybody

>

> Ameet 1993

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I fully agree with u Ameet. I was watching the debate on NDTV . Was pained

that no one could put their thoughts in a succint manner.

What was more surprising was a doctor who got through medicina and

postgraduation with the help of reservation wants reservation for his kids

too. Does that mean he still considers himself 'backward'? Was quite

appalled. No one says no to reservation for the deserving backward- both

economically and socially, but not for caste alone....

Perhaps a day will come when there has to be reservation for the present

'upper classes'.

With regards

Malini Prasad

(lp1960@...)

Wish a very happy and cheerful day keep smiling

> Re: Reservations - Have i done my bit?

>

>

> Sanju, (and everyone)

>

> That was an excellent piece of writing and it makes me very

> proud that you are my friend.... First Ashish, then Sanjay

> Praksh and now me... makes the discussion complete with the

> 1993 batch trio on the group...!!!

>

> The E-mail is very thought provoking and I could not resist

> writing back and I am sure that enlightened citizens would do

> so too.. I would like to begin with the fact that the e-mail

> was without malice to everybody, and no offence taken... so,

> I think that my thoughts would also be noted with neutrality,

> maybe with a pinch of salt and without malice..

>

> I 100% agree with your thoughts on the view of voilence and

> crimes towards dalits... its a very shameful act and it makes

> me very sad to read these kinds of stories where on one end,

> we see an " India shining " and on the other had, we read these

> kind of regressive news......

>

> The topic on reservations is a very emotional one.. for

> everyone.. those who have been involved and even those who

> are not... as as is for every topic, there are two sides to a

> story. Consider students who are coached right from they go

> to high school that they have to get good marks and become a

> doctor or an engineer.. the students slog and work under

> tremendous pressure.... and there are three kinds of results for this:

>

> 1) If a student gets good grades, he will go straight away to

> a medical school...

>

> 2) If he does not do well, he wil consider other career options

>

> 3) but there are a lot of students that are in the grey

> area... they have the good grades, but maybe lack by a

> percent or two... now, these are the people who are affected

> the most by the current social system. ... and these are the

> people who will be affected the most by reservations.

>

> I am all for caste based reservations.. yes I am.. I think

> that there are several people in India, in the backward areas

> who are devoid of good education and reservation is a good

> ways and means for them to give back to the community, and

> this will lead to a social equality in the long run....

> however, now we see, children of rich businessmen, white

> collar people working in Bombay, or even connected to

> politicians, who come from well to do families , educated

> families and yet secure seats in college under the reserved

> category... now, is there any difference in these candidates

> and candidates who are coming from an open category..

> socioeconomically?

>

> In my opinion, and that is just my opinion.... there should

> be reservations... but the reservations should not be only on

> the basis of caste... they should be based on Caste and

> socioeconomic status... only then it will be a system which

> will help the people for whom it was designed in the first

> places.. thus according to me, there should be following

> criteria for reservations:

>

> 1) Caste AND socioeconomic status ( not caste alone)

>

> 2) Soci economic status alone, irrespective of caste : this

> would help meritorious students from all over the country...

> kids from villages, urban slums, mill workers, famine

> affected areas.. everyone...

>

> India is a social democracy and in this scenario, the

> government should provide to everybody, including the weaker

> sections of the society, but I feel that the politicians

> should include a just and a fair way of including everyone in

> the reservation system and not just consolidating certain

> sections of the society as " vote banks " .. and the protests

> that we have after almost 60 years of independence are

> nothing but a reflection of a failed selfish political system

> which constantly reinvents itself with " appeasement "

> policies.... if they used their grey matter to find a

> solution to the crowded local trains and potholes of Bombay,

> the world would be a better place.....

>

> I know again that this forum is not supposed to be the place

> for me to express thse views... but I feel that everyone on

> these e-groups are my friends and I want to express my

> views... I do not want to ignite a controversy of any sorts

> here.. we are all mature professional individuals and we can

> always carry out a healthy discussion on this forum...

> WITHOUTany personal attacks....I hope everyone would respect that

>

> once again,

> with lot of love and no malice towards anybody

>

> Ameet 1993

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sanjay,

What you have written is eloquent, but with no logic.

Let us consider each of your points.

You say that Dalit atrocities continue till date.

Very true. So is the solution giving more seats in PG to them, or is the

solution increasing law and order? You have lumped female foeticide with

reservation. Is this a crime restricted only to reserved / or non-reserved

people?

You say that only people with pull get jobs and not the meritous.

Then giving them more seats is self defeating. If after passing, they are

anyway kept away from jobs, what is the logic in reserving more seats. I

personally think that with reservations in all elected bodies, it is this

category with more pull.

You say that Merit comes not from marks, but from opportunities, which are

not given to reserved category people.

For lack of any other objective yard stick, we have made marks the only

criterion. How can you measure lack of opportunity? If that is the hurdle

you want to do away with, then reservation is only defeating it, by creating

a sub class of reserved category which has better opportunities and is

competing against the people who have no opportunities.

I agree with you that no study was done to prove that reserved people had

less brain than open category ones. That is because this is self evident. In

fact, the main logic behind reservation is that this category has less

brains and hence cannot compete in a fair competition with other open

candidates, so have to be granted special privileges to come up. Can you

guess how many reserved category students go abroad? Hardly any. Why? Not

because they are more patriotic, but because all entrance tests abroad are

merit based.

You ask what have meritorious students given to India.

Well, to name a few:

Azim Premji, Ratan Tata, Birla, APJ Abul Kalaam, Homi Bhabha,

Narayanamurthy, etc.

Conversely, let me ask what have all those students, who benefited from

reservations given to India in the 50 years of reservations? Oh yes - a

corruption riddled beaurocracy which is dominated by reservations.

India now has no right to complain of brain drain. If you create hurdles of

caste everywhere, is it any wonder that people migrate?

Until I appeared for my Medical entrance exams, I was quite oblivious to the

concept of caste. That year was when I first became aware that I was less

privileged just because I was born in an upper caste. I was being punished

everywhere because some fore father of mine committed some atrocity in the

remote past against some unknown Dalit!

Kishore Shah 1974

Re: Reservations - Have i done my bit?

Dear Ashish ( and everybody ),

Yes I am with you to condemn the beating of few students protesting

against a constitutional move, but is there anyone with me while I protest

against:

1. Torching of Dalits in Bihar , Wednesday January 4 2006 08:58 IST,

BELLARY, newindpress.com

2. Haryana panchayats issue 'caste' diktats, Saturday, February 4, 2006

(Bhiwani), NDTV

3. " If you are a Dalit, you can't hoist the national flag in Nasik " ,

Aditya Ghosh, Sunday, February 05, 2006 23:20 IST, DNA Mumbai

4. Dalit marriage procession disrupted, tension in Meerut , Meerut, Feb 03

2006, Zee News

5. Five innocent Dalits were lynched to death allegedly by the police in

connivance with local VHP activist on 15th October 2002 at Dulina Police

Post, Jhajjar in Haryana. Even after 16 days of this brutal killings of

Dalits no action has been taken either by the police or the state

government.

... and thousands of similar crimes which occur everyday and either go

unreported or no action is taken against them.

Yes I am all for `MERIT`, but what is the concept of merit in India. Merit

is considered among people with equal education and opportunity. If few

people have access to private schools, tuitions and coaching classes and

majority goes to school where even the basic infrastructure is missing,

where is the comparison. So merit in education is actually capacity to " buy

education " ?

Now about opportunity : If a post of specialist is advertised, there are

hundreds of applicants, but who gets the job ?.......The meritorious??

NO..the one with the biggest Pull, so where does it leaves people who have

no connections and money but only education.

How can there be equal opportunity for everyone when the dominant caste is

so proud of there prejudices and discrimination , so can they actually judge

the meritorious? Merit is relevant when educational and occupational

attainments are not related to family background or other circumstantial

parameters.

Let us look at the merit of the doctors working in the most prestigious

hospitals of the country. If the Indian doctors and medical specialists are

so meritorious than why is that most of the VVIPs run away to foreign

countries at the simplest of illnesses. Even the former Prime Minister Atal

Bihari Vajpayee, an ardent supporter of Swadeshi had to call an NRI

orthopedic surgeon for his knee operation.

By the way, has there even been any study to prove that general category

candidates are more intelligent or more hardworking.

What has the meritorious given to the nation in last decade:

a. Justice ( Lal murder case, Bhopal gas tragedy,

Rehabilitation of displaced families of Narmada Dam. In one of the ruling

in a rape case a high court judge observed " a high caste man can not rape a

lower caste woman " !!)

b. The education system in India- low literacy rate, low standard

of education esp. in govt. schools)

c. Rampant female foeticide and devdasi system?

d. Rational thinking ..What kind of culture and education makes one

believe that a person belonging to a particular caste is less or more

intelligent with better work ethics?. Why nobody wonder that how much %tage

of population controls money, media, political power, law, and how many of

them are associated with scams. ...20-30%. Population and 90% scams. Does it

show them to be more honest, hardworking, or loyal to the Country? ( and to

speak of rang de basanti....)

e. How many great inventions, discoveries are attributed to this

nation with second largest population.

f. Sports- What achievements are there to talk about?

Right to education, livelihood and right to earn should be for everyone.

Its better to try and equalize the society when we still have time rather

than wait when the oppressed really get loose and take the matter in their

own hands

Sanjay

(

With no malice towards anyone)

(

Yes I am doing my bit)

[Guest guest]

Shah wrote: Dear Sanjay,

What you have written is eloquent, but with no logic.

Let us consider each of your points.

You say that Dalit atrocities continue till date.

Very true. So is the solution giving more seats in PG to them, or is the

solution increasing law and order? You have lumped female foeticide with

reservation. Is this a crime restricted only to reserved / or non-reserved

people?

You say that only people with pull get jobs and not the meritous.

Then giving them more seats is self defeating. If after passing, they are

anyway kept away from jobs, what is the logic in reserving more seats. I

personally think that with reservations in all elected bodies, it is this

category with more pull.

You say that Merit comes not from marks, but from opportunities, which are

not given to reserved category people.

For lack of any other objective yard stick, we have made marks the only

criterion. How can you measure lack of opportunity? If that is the hurdle

you want to do away with, then reservation is only defeating it, by creating

a sub class of reserved category which has better opportunities and is

competing against the people who have no opportunities.

I agree with you that no study was done to prove that reserved people had

less brain than open category ones. That is because this is self evident. In

fact, the main logic behind reservation is that this category has less

brains and hence cannot compete in a fair competition with other open

candidates, so have to be granted special privileges to come up. Can you

guess how many reserved category students go abroad? Hardly any. Why? Not

because they are more patriotic, but because all entrance tests abroad are

merit based.

You ask what have meritorious students given to India.

Well, to name a few:

Azim Premji, Ratan Tata, Birla, APJ Abul Kalaam, Homi Bhabha,

Narayanamurthy, etc.

Conversely, let me ask what have all those students, who benefited from

reservations given to India in the 50 years of reservations? Oh yes - a

corruption riddled beaurocracy which is dominated by reservations.

India now has no right to complain of brain drain. If you create hurdles of

caste everywhere, is it any wonder that people migrate?

Until I appeared for my Medical entrance exams, I was quite oblivious to the

concept of caste. That year was when I first became aware that I was less

privileged just because I was born in an upper caste. I was being punished

everywhere because some fore father of mine committed some atrocity in the

remote past against some unknown Dalit!

Kishore Shah 1974

Dear Shah Sir (and everybody),

The logic behind my previous discussion can be understood by the

following facts which are not blind presumptions. Allow me to give some facts

about merit in medical colleges of Tamil Nadu…………….

According to a report in The Hindu, in 2004, students belonging to the

Backward Class (BC) or Most Backward Classes (MBC) took 952 of the 1,224 seats

in 12 government medical colleges in Tamil Nadu (77.9 per cent).

The first 14 ranks in the medical admissions went to BC/MBC students. Even in

the open competition category, five Scheduled Caste candidates got into the MBBS

course that year.

The final tally released by the Directorate of Medical Education, however,

shows that only 28 students from the `non-reserved' or Forward Caste (FC) got

into government medical colleges, representing about 2.3 per cent.

In fact, of the top 400 rank-holders, only 31 are from a FC. In the top 100

rank-holders, only six are from an FC, 79 from a BC and 13 from an MBC (The

Hindu dated 23-08-2004).

You said you were punished everywhere because some forefather of yours

committed some atrocity in remote past against some unknown dalit. Please do try

to read the dates on the few crimes I have listed! But perhaps these crimes are

acceptable?

You said we have a corruption riddled beaurocracy, I totally agree with that.

But do you know the percentage of reserved candidates in higher

posts……………………………… It is 7 – 10%(NSS ). I personally think that intelligence or

work ethics are not related to castes but reversing the ratio might help.

Of all the names of great people you have mentioned, majority of

industrialists got their wealth in inheritance.

Dear Lalit taori sir, do you know of all the posts in central govt. only

12.55% are filled by OBCs and out of that a mere 4.3% of class I jobs (India

together, may 2006) are occupied by these. So if you are to reborn in a reserved

category these will be tour chances of getting a good job.

There are approx. 31 private medical colleges in India. (excluding the private

dental & unrecognized colleges). Are these not diluting the educational system?

As for reserved category people not going abroad, it is not only wrong but

baseless allegation and blind presumptions………..well one can have as many as he

wants.

The ideal situation is to give same education to everyone. Caste should not be

mentioned in any form or in any other way(and to do away with surnames also).But

till that is achieved, reservation is required because of social bias and

restricting circumstances, not because somebody is more or less capable. It is a

means of achieving social equality and not the goal.

( With Respect )

sanjay

---------------------------------

Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with Yahoo!

Messenger with Voice.

[Guest guest]

Shah wrote: Dear Sanjay,

What you have written is eloquent, but with no logic.

Let us consider each of your points.

You say that Dalit atrocities continue till date.

Very true. So is the solution giving more seats in PG to them, or is the

solution increasing law and order? You have lumped female foeticide with

reservation. Is this a crime restricted only to reserved / or non-reserved

people?

You say that only people with pull get jobs and not the meritous.

Then giving them more seats is self defeating. If after passing, they are

anyway kept away from jobs, what is the logic in reserving more seats. I

personally think that with reservations in all elected bodies, it is this

category with more pull.

You say that Merit comes not from marks, but from opportunities, which are

not given to reserved category people.

For lack of any other objective yard stick, we have made marks the only

criterion. How can you measure lack of opportunity? If that is the hurdle

you want to do away with, then reservation is only defeating it, by creating

a sub class of reserved category which has better opportunities and is

competing against the people who have no opportunities.

I agree with you that no study was done to prove that reserved people had

less brain than open category ones. That is because this is self evident. In

fact, the main logic behind reservation is that this category has less

brains and hence cannot compete in a fair competition with other open

candidates, so have to be granted special privileges to come up. Can you

guess how many reserved category students go abroad? Hardly any. Why? Not

because they are more patriotic, but because all entrance tests abroad are

merit based.

You ask what have meritorious students given to India.

Well, to name a few:

Azim Premji, Ratan Tata, Birla, APJ Abul Kalaam, Homi Bhabha,

Narayanamurthy, etc.

Conversely, let me ask what have all those students, who benefited from

reservations given to India in the 50 years of reservations? Oh yes - a

corruption riddled beaurocracy which is dominated by reservations.

India now has no right to complain of brain drain. If you create hurdles of

caste everywhere, is it any wonder that people migrate?

Until I appeared for my Medical entrance exams, I was quite oblivious to the

concept of caste. That year was when I first became aware that I was less

privileged just because I was born in an upper caste. I was being punished

everywhere because some fore father of mine committed some atrocity in the

remote past against some unknown Dalit!

Kishore Shah 1974

Dear Shah Sir (and everybody),

The logic behind my previous discussion can be understood by the

following facts which are not blind presumptions. Allow me to give some facts

about merit in medical colleges of Tamil Nadu…………….

According to a report in The Hindu, in 2004, students belonging to the

Backward Class (BC) or Most Backward Classes (MBC) took 952 of the 1,224 seats

in 12 government medical colleges in Tamil Nadu (77.9 per cent).

The first 14 ranks in the medical admissions went to BC/MBC students. Even in

the open competition category, five Scheduled Caste candidates got into the MBBS

course that year.

The final tally released by the Directorate of Medical Education, however,

shows that only 28 students from the `non-reserved' or Forward Caste (FC) got

into government medical colleges, representing about 2.3 per cent.

In fact, of the top 400 rank-holders, only 31 are from a FC. In the top 100

rank-holders, only six are from an FC, 79 from a BC and 13 from an MBC (The

Hindu dated 23-08-2004).

You said you were punished everywhere because some forefather of yours

committed some atrocity in remote past against some unknown dalit. Please do try

to read the dates on the few crimes I have listed! But perhaps these crimes are

acceptable?

You said we have a corruption riddled beaurocracy, I totally agree with that.

But do you know the percentage of reserved candidates in higher

posts……………………………… It is 7 – 10%(NSS ). I personally think that intelligence or

work ethics are not related to castes but reversing the ratio might help.

Of all the names of great people you have mentioned, majority of

industrialists got their wealth in inheritance.

Dear Lalit taori sir, do you know of all the posts in central govt. only

12.55% are filled by OBCs and out of that a mere 4.3% of class I jobs (India

together, may 2006) are occupied by these. So if you are to reborn in a reserved

category these will be tour chances of getting a good job.

There are approx. 31 private medical colleges in India. (excluding the private

dental & unrecognized colleges). Are these not diluting the educational system?

As for reserved category people not going abroad, it is not only wrong but

baseless allegation and blind presumptions………..well one can have as many as he

wants.

The ideal situation is to give same education to everyone. Caste should not be

mentioned in any form or in any other way(and to do away with surnames also).But

till that is achieved, reservation is required because of social bias and

restricting circumstances, not because somebody is more or less capable. It is a

means of achieving social equality and not the goal.

( With Respect )

sanjay

---------------------------------

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1 & cent;/min.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sanjay,

Reservations may give a benefit to a few selected individuals, however

reservations

cannot create an equal society. this controversy is only increasing the

divide

as you point out the statistics of tamil nadu, and assuming these are

correct, where is the need for reservations, everyone will get admission based

on merit alone since they are so meritorious

why not open a 1000 new good schools in all areas of india. give free

education to students of backward classes and give the good ones scholarships to

go into whatever institute all over the world. why reserve seats?

should there be reservations all over the world for backward nations to

create an egalitarian world order? say reservations in UN for countries like

bangladesh? or reservations in the UN for nations who have failed to check their

growth? some reservation for india will certainly be there then

with most personal regards for you

this controversy will not change the personal regard i have for you.

A

Sanjay Prakash wrote:

Shah wrote: Dear Sanjay,

What you have written is eloquent, but with no logic.

Let us consider each of your points.

You say that Dalit atrocities continue till date.

Very true. So is the solution giving more seats in PG to them, or is the

solution increasing law and order? You have lumped female foeticide with

reservation. Is this a crime restricted only to reserved / or non-reserved

people?

You say that only people with pull get jobs and not the meritous.

Then giving them more seats is self defeating. If after passing, they are

anyway kept away from jobs, what is the logic in reserving more seats. I

personally think that with reservations in all elected bodies, it is this

category with more pull.

You say that Merit comes not from marks, but from opportunities, which are

not given to reserved category people.

For lack of any other objective yard stick, we have made marks the only

criterion. How can you measure lack of opportunity? If that is the hurdle

you want to do away with, then reservation is only defeating it, by creating

a sub class of reserved category which has better opportunities and is

competing against the people who have no opportunities.

I agree with you that no study was done to prove that reserved people had

less brain than open category ones. That is because this is self evident. In

fact, the main logic behind reservation is that this category has less

brains and hence cannot compete in a fair competition with other open

candidates, so have to be granted special privileges to come up. Can you

guess how many reserved category students go abroad? Hardly any. Why? Not

because they are more patriotic, but because all entrance tests abroad are

merit based.

You ask what have meritorious students given to India.

Well, to name a few:

Azim Premji, Ratan Tata, Birla, APJ Abul Kalaam, Homi Bhabha,

Narayanamurthy, etc.

Conversely, let me ask what have all those students, who benefited from

reservations given to India in the 50 years of reservations? Oh yes - a

corruption riddled beaurocracy which is dominated by reservations.

India now has no right to complain of brain drain. If you create hurdles of

caste everywhere, is it any wonder that people migrate?

Until I appeared for my Medical entrance exams, I was quite oblivious to the

concept of caste. That year was when I first became aware that I was less

privileged just because I was born in an upper caste. I was being punished

everywhere because some fore father of mine committed some atrocity in the

remote past against some unknown Dalit!

Kishore Shah 1974

Dear Shah Sir (and everybody),

The logic behind my previous discussion can be understood by the

following facts which are not blind presumptions. Allow me to give some facts

about merit in medical colleges of Tamil Nadu…………….

According to a report in The Hindu, in 2004, students belonging to the

Backward Class (BC) or Most Backward Classes (MBC) took 952 of the 1,224 seats

in 12 government medical colleges in Tamil Nadu (77.9 per cent).

The first 14 ranks in the medical admissions went to BC/MBC students. Even in

the open competition category, five Scheduled Caste candidates got into the MBBS

course that year.

The final tally released by the Directorate of Medical Education, however,

shows that only 28 students from the `non-reserved' or Forward Caste (FC) got

into government medical colleges, representing about 2.3 per cent.

In fact, of the top 400 rank-holders, only 31 are from a FC. In the top 100

rank-holders, only six are from an FC, 79 from a BC and 13 from an MBC (The

Hindu dated 23-08-2004).

You said you were punished everywhere because some forefather of yours

committed some atrocity in remote past against some unknown dalit. Please do try

to read the dates on the few crimes I have listed! But perhaps these crimes are

acceptable?

You said we have a corruption riddled beaurocracy, I totally agree with that.

But do you know the percentage of reserved candidates in higher

posts……………………………… It is 7 – 10%(NSS ). I personally think that intelligence or

work ethics are not related to castes but reversing the ratio might help.

Of all the names of great people you have mentioned, majority of

industrialists got their wealth in inheritance.

Dear Lalit taori sir, do you know of all the posts in central govt. only

12.55% are filled by OBCs and out of that a mere 4.3% of class I jobs (India

together, may 2006) are occupied by these. So if you are to reborn in a reserved

category these will be tour chances of getting a good job.

There are approx. 31 private medical colleges in India. (excluding the private

dental & unrecognized colleges). Are these not diluting the educational system?

As for reserved category people not going abroad, it is not only wrong but

baseless allegation and blind presumptions………..well one can have as many as he

wants.

The ideal situation is to give same education to everyone. Caste should not be

mentioned in any form or in any other way(and to do away with surnames also).But

till that is achieved, reservation is required because of social bias and

restricting circumstances, not because somebody is more or less capable. It is a

means of achieving social equality and not the goal.

( With Respect )

sanjay

---------------------------------

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1 & cent;/min.

[Guest guest]

I tried hard to stay away from this issue, but finally decided that I had to put

my viewpoint across.

Let me make it clear that I am completely against reservations. However, there

is a grey area to the issue which most of us prefer to ignore.

I agree that admissions to professional courses must be based on merit alone. If

that is the case, why point fingers against caste based reservations alone? How

do you explain those children of rich parents who manage to secure seats in

private medical colleges on the basis of hefty donations alone? Isn't it the

worst form of hypocrisy ever? The only people capable of becoming professionals

are those who have their coffers full.

Sitting in cities, we are selectively blind to ground reality. Even today in the

smaller towns of north India, whether you are allotted a hostel room in your

college or not depends upon which category you belong to.You get a room only if

you have a senior belonging to the same caste. Even if you have a room allotted,

expect your lock to be broken and your stuff thrown out. This isn't something

which is said in the papers, but talk to your friends there and the truth is

scary.The caste divisions still exist-only in our metropolises, we thankfully

seem to have done away with them

I still am against reservations. But the fact remains that schooling is not the

same for different people. Unless we have a uniform accessible system of

schooling for all kids uptil 7th or 8th standard, the inequalities will not

disappear. With similar teaching, we can expect people to compete on a common

platform- on the basis of merit alone.

Since this doesn't seem too practical at the moment, do we have the option of

allowing a person in the reserved category(not in the creamy layer) to claim

reservation only once in his lifetime? And there on he/ she must progress on the

basis of merit alone? Leave it upto him whether he wants to claim that

reservation in his primary school, graduation, postgraduation or for procuring a

job. I see this the only way to gradually ease out reservations and introduce

merit as the basis of selection.

Anshu (1989)

[Guest guest]

perfect solution - suggested by Roy Wilkins, in yesterday's Times of India. open

100 schools with good facilities. maybe reserve them for backward castes. bring

them to a level playing field and let them compete.

what do u think whre wil the money for the new seats which are going to be

increased is going to come from. it wil be diverted from the education budget

from some other head. and this will be the expenditure of primary education

diverted to increase seats. will this help create an equal society or increase

the differences.

i agree with ur views and i apologise for all the wrongs which the society has

comitted on the backward classes to date. but will reservations be a panacea????

A

" Dr. Anshu " wrote:

I tried hard to stay away from this issue, but finally decided that I had to

put my viewpoint across.

Let me make it clear that I am completely against reservations. However, there

is a grey area to the issue which most of us prefer to ignore.

I agree that admissions to professional courses must be based on merit alone. If

that is the case, why point fingers against caste based reservations alone? How

do you explain those children of rich parents who manage to secure seats in

private medical colleges on the basis of hefty donations alone? Isn't it the

worst form of hypocrisy ever? The only people capable of becoming professionals

are those who have their coffers full.

Sitting in cities, we are selectively blind to ground reality. Even today in the

smaller towns of north India, whether you are allotted a hostel room in your

college or not depends upon which category you belong to.You get a room only if

you have a senior belonging to the same caste. Even if you have a room allotted,

expect your lock to be broken and your stuff thrown out. This isn't something

which is said in the papers, but talk to your friends there and the truth is

scary.The caste divisions still exist-only in our metropolises, we thankfully

seem to have done away with them

I still am against reservations. But the fact remains that schooling is not the

same for different people. Unless we have a uniform accessible system of

schooling for all kids uptil 7th or 8th standard, the inequalities will not

disappear. With similar teaching, we can expect people to compete on a common

platform- on the basis of merit alone.

Since this doesn't seem too practical at the moment, do we have the option of

allowing a person in the reserved category(not in the creamy layer) to claim

reservation only once in his lifetime? And there on he/ she must progress on the

basis of merit alone? Leave it upto him whether he wants to claim that

reservation in his primary school, graduation, postgraduation or for procuring a

job. I see this the only way to gradually ease out reservations and introduce

merit as the basis of selection.

Anshu (1989)

[Guest guest]

Dear Anshu,

Thanks for breaking your silence. I think that this is an important issue,

and none of us should remain quiet. Whether we are pro or anti, let us all

have our say. However, remember that all this discussion is merely futile,

because all the powers that be are not affected by our discussions. But at

least it lets us vent our frustration.

You have objected to the donation seats. Very correct! In an ideal, utopian

world, every opportunity, job or profession would be given to the most

competent and merited. This is the concept of Communism. However,

practically, it does not work. Communism has collapsed all over the world.

Even China had to turn Capitalistic to surge ahead in business.

Ultimately, there are no free lunches. Someone has to foot the bill. If, as

you say, donation seats are stopped, will the private colleges run? Who will

pay for the enormous infrastructure and maintenance? Even our Alma mater

has to depend on donations, funds and other help to subsidize the merit

seats. The private colleges have only made the process transparent by saying

that a few will pay for the rest of the merit seats.

I have seen the change occurring in private colleges in Pune. Initially, all

the seats, either openly or covertly, were donation seats. However, soon the

authorities realized that their college performance was suffering. They had

to bow down to market realities and take a few merit list students to

showcase their talent and results. (My son was selected by 4 such colleges,

for which, I can assure you, I did not need to pay a single paisa as

donation. However, if the quota would have barred my son from BJ Med Pune, I

would have been forced to opt for that choice.)

The Government is mooting increase in seats to offset the reservations. Who

will foot this bill? This is just the sarkari way of hoodwinking the public.

The funds will be diverted from other deserving causes.

The persons of reserved caste will never oppose reservations. However, they

fail to realize that this itself is perpetuating caste. The need for caste

is there only if there are reservations. If there are no reservations, all

barriers will dissolve. I am really surprised at how such few old

politicians can succeed in fooling so many people for so long!

In case there are no reservations, there is no need to have surnames. So,

like you, we will all be surname-less. If, as you say, there are inequities

in rural areas, these can be solved by using scholarships based on economic

criteria, and not caste. (Of course, corruption will raise its head there

too. But that's another story. Even today, UP and Bihar are known for

issuing caste certificates after shelling out the requisite amount.)

Kishore Shah 1974

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

Well some points have been raised by Dr Anshu, although they happen to be " grey "

areas, is it still justifiable to continue reservarions, forget increasing the

percentage of seats. Isnt 50 years a long period to continue the reservations.

With the present reservations we have a population which I believe has become

too dependant on the certificates (for reservation-be it the docs or otherwise)

and, simply they dont want to part with it now or in future as well.

Certainly if an opportunity has to be provided then why not limit it to the

level of schools, giving the best to the backward class(free education etc) and

then say now prove Urself on an equal platform.

Its high time we got over with the votebank politics. The present COngress has

done a total turn around, official documents very well prove that the Congress

was totally ANTI QUOTA for the 1990 reservations. Has the party lost its '.....'

and or is it convienent amnesia at its best.

Our dear(!) politicians talk about upliftment have they ever thought of passing

the Womens reservation bill in the parliament which has been pending ever so

long.

SUPPORT MERIT, NOT DIVISIVE POLITICS. ACT NOW BEFORE ITS TOO LATE

Ajay Mehta

1990

On Fri, 19 May 2006 India burns wrote :

>perfect solution - suggested by Roy Wilkins, in yesterday's Times of India.

open 100 schools with good facilities. maybe reserve them for backward castes.

bring them to a level playing field and let them compete.

> what do u think whre wil the money for the new seats which are going to be

increased is going to come from. it wil be diverted from the education budget

from some other head. and this will be the expenditure of primary education

diverted to increase seats. will this help create an equal society or increase

the differences.

>

> i agree with ur views and i apologise for all the wrongs which the society

has comitted on the backward classes to date. but will reservations be a

panacea????

>

> A

>

> " Dr. Anshu " wrote:

> I tried hard to stay away from this issue, but finally decided that I had to

put my viewpoint across.

>

>Let me make it clear that I am completely against reservations. However, there

is a grey area to the issue which most of us prefer to ignore.

>

>I agree that admissions to professional courses must be based on merit alone.

If that is the case, why point fingers against caste based reservations alone?

How do you explain those children of rich parents who manage to secure seats in

private medical colleges on the basis of hefty donations alone? Isn't it the

worst form of hypocrisy ever? The only people capable of becoming professionals

are those who have their coffers full.

>

>Sitting in cities, we are selectively blind to ground reality. Even today in

the smaller towns of north India, whether you are allotted a hostel room in your

college or not depends upon which category you belong to.You get a room only if

you have a senior belonging to the same caste. Even if you have a room allotted,

expect your lock to be broken and your stuff thrown out. This isn't something

which is said in the papers, but talk to your friends there and the truth is

scary.The caste divisions still exist-only in our metropolises, we thankfully

seem to have done away with them

>

>I still am against reservations. But the fact remains that schooling is not the

same for different people. Unless we have a uniform accessible system of

schooling for all kids uptil 7th or 8th standard, the inequalities will not

disappear. With similar teaching, we can expect people to compete on a common

platform- on the basis of merit alone.

>

>Since this doesn't seem too practical at the moment, do we have the option of

allowing a person in the reserved category(not in the creamy layer) to claim

reservation only once in his lifetime? And there on he/ she must progress on the

basis of merit alone? Leave it upto him whether he wants to claim that

reservation in his primary school, graduation, postgraduation or for procuring a

job. I see this the only way to gradually ease out reservations and introduce

merit as the basis of selection.

>

>Anshu (1989)

>

>