Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 I know that in the last episode with my FOO, my brothers really went toxic tossing things that make me feel knee-jerk ashamed. About my weight, about my husband, about how *I* should be ashamed of myself for picking on poor nada. Being blasted from the FOO is a very painful thing, and even after I set my boundaries and didn't read the notes, the mere sight of one of their names would make my hands turn cold (my sign of a physical reaction). Boundary setting and reading about denial and NOT trying to enlist their help and support has been key to this process. The family is indeed like a mobile, one weight is gone and the whole balance goes out of whack. Today I was thinking about various times that nada lit into my sisters when we were adults. When my sister left her abusive marriage, nada made it a point to shame her and use the events to slap her around. Same with toxic brother. Same thing happened when nada didn't like the race of another sister's boyfriend. In both cases, she got a reaction from my siblings, one of grief , the other of fear. With the younger sis she took down all the pictures and my sister found that unbearable and called nada sobbing. I contrast that to my situation where I really don't care what nada does with my pictures and would be relieved if she just gave up trying to insert herself into my life (her latest attempts involve email to my children). There was a time that I was on my way to being a totally independent person. Then, that detour of years to " take care " of the FOO really cost me. At any rate, I now find myself having nada-less thought stretches. It was very painful at the beginning of the process. I felt wobbly, weak, and jittery. I no longer feel that way. Realizing that *I* had control of my environment through boundary setting was the single most important realization. This boundary setting has overflowed into other aspects of my life, I don't feel like I have to please people anymore. When my mother in law calls with an invite, I now say, " Let me think about it and I will get back to you). (Which is exactly what she has been telling me for years). When people ask me to do stuff, I don't feel guilty by saying " no " anymore. At the beginning of the separation, I felt the need to sway family members over to my side, but within hours knew that was a losing battle. It took HUGE catalyst of my sister's death, 9/11 and a deep psychic exhaustion from dealing with petty nada stuff over years to make me realize I had to make changes and face the past. I know my siblings are not anywhere near that, and part of leaving nada behind has been leaving them too. It is more painful to consider that they may not love me anymore -- siblings who have gone through hell together also are a tribe-- but I can only worry about myself. That was a HUGE lesson to learn. I've found that I have had happy days, blah days, sad days, tired days, but not emotionally wild swinging days. I feel more on an even keel. Taking one day at a time really helps. Focusing at the work at hand (my kids) really helps. One last thing is that I have stopped going to therapy. Without being arrogant, it came to a point where the therapist said I had achieved the goals of therapy (gaining insight) and she wanted me to meet with a priest because in her analysis, my problems were caused by toxic religion (she didn't get the BPD stuff). I found it very helpful during the beginning of the process to go, but later felt that I was doing better with this list. The therapist never gave me any homework other than journaling, and said I was very functional and was doing great considering my life story. She said I had PTSD and some self esteem issues but those could be worked on. Also, the sessions were not covered after all by insurance and were costing a lot. I do have insurance that would cover, but no openings among the therapists who are local. I really have found this group to be the best thing for me. Well that was a ramble... kathleen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 Is there a layperson's guide to telling the difference between BPD and bi polar? --- Edith wrote: > Hi All, > > And, finally, here's one more article I'd like > to share with you. Its > from: > http://www.findingstone.com/professionals/monographs/rageshameandthedeathoflove.\ htm > > Like Cloke states at the above website (the > article is partially > reproduced below), " Shame can best be described > as an emotional wound to > the self for which one blames oneself as if > one's person is the reason. > Something like " the reason that I get yelled at > is because I am bad. > ... " > > << > Rage, Shame and the Death of Love > by Cloke, Ph.D. > > " Concealed deep within the human psyche lies an > enduring world, a > kingdom which exists and yet is separate from > our awareness. Within > this shrouded domain reside the remnants of > intensely painful > experiences that were propelled out of sight > for safe keeping. These > imprints that were thrown into the unconscious > eventually form into a > structure that without warning becomes > conscious, as if these early > experiences were happening in the present > moment. From this hidden > place comes rage, born out of painful > humiliations. This shame shifts > our sense of reality and casts a shadow over > our experiences with > others. > > " What could be the origin of our tendency to > repress pain? The answer > may lie in two different areas. First, when an > infant experiences acute > pain caused from powerful breaks in the > emotional connection from parent > to child, the intensity is so severe it cannot > be emotionally or > intellectually processed. Instead these > powerful emotions are torn away > from consciousness or " split off " from > awareness. This splitting occurs > because the infant has not formed enough of a > self-structure to deal > adequately with such feeling states. This > unprocessed or disorganized > material can be referred to as chaotic or > overwhelming. Out of the > necessity to make order out of chaos, an > internal system forms to manage > these elements so that they remain secure and > safe from exposure. We > refer to this system as the > shame/envy/rage/guilt cycle. The second > explanation as to why this unconscious system > exists may have something > to do with a primitive stage of evolutionary > development when life was > organized around hunting. To survive physical > and emotional suffering > it may have become necessary to suppress the > memory of pain so the hunt > could continue. Though we may no longer need > this psychological reflex, > it remains a force which can cause distortions > in our thinking and > feeling. This territory of the unconscious > endures as a primeval and > intensely emotional place, locked away from our > conscious minds. > > " Shame can best be described as an emotional > wound to the self for which > one blames oneself as if one's person is the > reason. Something like > " the reason that I get yelled at is because I > am bad. " When personal > shame is stimulated by an event that is similar > to the original shaming > experience, the pain energy converts to rage as > it becomes conscious. > The shame system operates on its own because we > are not in contact with > the pain and therefore it appears > spontaneously. This pain is organized > around sets of values, beliefs, defenses and > wishes which translate > messages to this private world holding it in or > when it cannot be > controlled, suddenly releasing it. These > vigorous wounds are capable of > generating massive shifts of unprocessed pain > that can flood the body > with fierce rage. As the person matures the > force of this energetic > rage is often so intense that it blasts out of > the unconscious into the > world of others. > > " Shame-wounding from parents and significant > others most often begins > during infancy and continues throughout life. > Because this inner world > of shame operates in obscurity it can be > characterized as a jungle, wild > and primitive. The shift from a shameful > stimulation to a rage response > is a means of avoiding agony and voiding it at > the same time. This > constantly expanding jungle of the unconscious > produces an enormous > amount of negative energy. Rage energy is > particularly intense because > it is combined with a deep-rooted fear of > retaliation and abandonment. > The expression of rage mixed with terror is > indicative of major > emotional breaks occurring at a time when the > infant was utterly > dependent on the parents for survival. A > neglected infant or child > cannot risk expressing rage because it may lead > to even further loss or > abuse. If the suffering from abuse continues > for extended periods > during childhood the pain will intensify and > further develop the > shame/rage system. > > " While growing in secrecy, the child's shame > increases in proportion to > the intensity of abuse experienced from the > world around him. As the > child matures, the rage that has been generated > from previous abuse > cannot be restrained, and inevitably explodes > either toward himself or > others. ... > > >> > > Cloke's long article appears in its > entirety at: > http://www.findingstone.com/professionals/monographs/rageshameandthedeathoflove.\ htm > > and includes the following subsections: > Shame > Development > Rage vs. Anger > Envy > Guilt vs. Shame > Empathy and Bonding > Idealization and Devaluation > Summary > > Cheers, > Edith > - One of the WTO list moderators > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 Another printer... Thank you Fairy God Mother...! Big Hugs, Cyanide Cyn...;0) --- Edith wrote: > Hi All, > > And, finally, here's one more article I'd like to > share with you. Its > from: > http://www.findingstone.com/professionals/monographs/rageshameandthedeathoflove.\ htm > > Like Cloke states at the above website (the article > is partially > reproduced below), " Shame can best be described as > an emotional wound to > the self for which one blames oneself as if one's > person is the reason. > Something like " the reason that I get yelled at is > because I am bad. > ... " > > << > Rage, Shame and the Death of Love > by Cloke, Ph.D. > > " Concealed deep within the human psyche lies an > enduring world, a > kingdom which exists and yet is separate from our > awareness. Within > this shrouded domain reside the remnants of > intensely painful > experiences that were propelled out of sight for > safe keeping. These > imprints that were thrown into the unconscious > eventually form into a > structure that without warning becomes conscious, as > if these early > experiences were happening in the present moment. > From this hidden > place comes rage, born out of painful humiliations. > This shame shifts > our sense of reality and casts a shadow over our > experiences with > others. > > " What could be the origin of our tendency to repress > pain? The answer > may lie in two different areas. First, when an > infant experiences acute > pain caused from powerful breaks in the emotional > connection from parent > to child, the intensity is so severe it cannot be > emotionally or > intellectually processed. Instead these powerful > emotions are torn away > from consciousness or " split off " from awareness. > This splitting occurs > because the infant has not formed enough of a > self-structure to deal > adequately with such feeling states. This > unprocessed or disorganized > material can be referred to as chaotic or > overwhelming. Out of the > necessity to make order out of chaos, an internal > system forms to manage > these elements so that they remain secure and safe > from exposure. We > refer to this system as the shame/envy/rage/guilt > cycle. The second > explanation as to why this unconscious system exists > may have something > to do with a primitive stage of evolutionary > development when life was > organized around hunting. To survive physical and > emotional suffering > it may have become necessary to suppress the memory > of pain so the hunt > could continue. Though we may no longer need this > psychological reflex, > it remains a force which can cause distortions in > our thinking and > feeling. This territory of the unconscious endures > as a primeval and > intensely emotional place, locked away from our > conscious minds. > > " Shame can best be described as an emotional wound > to the self for which > one blames oneself as if one's person is the reason. > Something like > " the reason that I get yelled at is because I am > bad. " When personal > shame is stimulated by an event that is similar to > the original shaming > experience, the pain energy converts to rage as it > becomes conscious. > The shame system operates on its own because we are > not in contact with > the pain and therefore it appears spontaneously. > This pain is organized > around sets of values, beliefs, defenses and wishes > which translate > messages to this private world holding it in or when > it cannot be > controlled, suddenly releasing it. These vigorous > wounds are capable of > generating massive shifts of unprocessed pain that > can flood the body > with fierce rage. As the person matures the force > of this energetic > rage is often so intense that it blasts out of the > unconscious into the > world of others. > > " Shame-wounding from parents and significant others > most often begins > during infancy and continues throughout life. > Because this inner world > of shame operates in obscurity it can be > characterized as a jungle, wild > and primitive. The shift from a shameful > stimulation to a rage response > is a means of avoiding agony and voiding it at the > same time. This > constantly expanding jungle of the unconscious > produces an enormous > amount of negative energy. Rage energy is > particularly intense because > it is combined with a deep-rooted fear of > retaliation and abandonment. > The expression of rage mixed with terror is > indicative of major > emotional breaks occurring at a time when the infant > was utterly > dependent on the parents for survival. A neglected > infant or child > cannot risk expressing rage because it may lead to > even further loss or > abuse. If the suffering from abuse continues for > extended periods > during childhood the pain will intensify and further > develop the > shame/rage system. > > " While growing in secrecy, the child's shame > increases in proportion to > the intensity of abuse experienced from the world > around him. As the > child matures, the rage that has been generated from > previous abuse > cannot be restrained, and inevitably explodes either > toward himself or > others. ... > > >> > > Cloke's long article appears in its entirety > at: > http://www.findingstone.com/professionals/monographs/rageshameandthedeathoflove.\ htm > > and includes the following subsections: > Shame > Development > Rage vs. Anger > Envy > Guilt vs. Shame > Empathy and Bonding > Idealization and Devaluation > Summary > > Cheers, > Edith > - One of the WTO list moderators > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 Good morning Kathleen! Like you, I too found my foo collapsing into chaos after the death of someone, in my case it was my dad. He was the counterweight balance that kept things on a more even keel within the foo. Two days after his death I found myself at the end of a severe verbal abuse attack and found myself realizing, right then, that this is all they can ever be with me. Every one of them had a poor opinion of me and it was at that point that I realized that the abuse was a way to try to hold me down. There was no support from these people. No comfort zone. Any time something like that came close, someone would destroy it. " Letting go " was the foo's favorite saying. I hate that to this day. (In my foo " letting go " meant ignore it and it will go away.) I went through the same mourning phase of the dream family,(the family I had hope they would one day be) and concentrated on my family. My daughters. The foo severed the line between us in January 2000, after I made it clear that I will not allow abuse toward me or my children. (how dare I have my own set of rules,huh?) But this brought about a whole new approach to life. I had to face things I had put aside in the past, I came to understand why I had made life choices (who I dated, married, jobs I had taken,etc) that had felt both right and wrong to me. But I also had an answer to all the " why " questions I had carried around with me and so I was able to sort through those too, and file them away. I guess you could say that I was doing an intense cleaning. It was a tough cleaning job! I can see now that nada turned every one of her children into something she could control and at the same time kept us from each other. We were our own best friends when we were young, but as we grew she began the separation process with each and every one of us. And to this day, they truly believe that they are close. But they are blind, they are only close to nada, not each other. They verbally hurt each other and tear each other apart. Cutting me free was the best thing they could have done for me. (I'm sure that wasn t the plan!) Now the fog has cleared away, I can see what is real and what is denial with the foo. My daughters up and coming marriage has brought a few things out in the foo and I've had to deal with the fallout protecting the younger daughter. But the effort wasn't intense like before and I had things in a better prospective then I would have before . Not only that but my emotions were not effected in the same way. No crushing weights to deal with. Kool huh? When something does happen and I feel the need to involve someone, I come here. Because here there is support without the censor. Something I found to be soooo refreshing to my spirit. It was like walking across the dessert falling from thirst and exhaustion, and finding an oasis with cool clear water and protection from the harsh unrelenting pressure. I went to a therapist too. Mine told me that all I really needed was to hear that I was ok, that it was all right to feel how " I " feel. To be validated. Could I have found a better place to be? :0) I know I still have a way to go, but I don't feel doomed now. The light is brighter everyday, and I am becoming more and more the me I could have been. I'm glad I bumped into you on the path!! Warm thoughts, -- Re: FYI: " Shame-wounding " I know that in the last episode with my FOO, my brothers really went toxic tossing things that make me feel knee-jerk ashamed. About my weight, about my husband, about how *I* should be ashamed of myself for picking on poor nada. Being blasted from the FOO is a very painful thing, and even after I set my boundaries and didn't read the notes, the mere sight of one of their names would make my hands turn cold (my sign of a physical reaction). Boundary setting and reading about denial and NOT trying to enlist their help and support has been key to this process. The family is indeed like a mobile, one weight is gone and the whole balance goes out of whack. Today I was thinking about various times that nada lit into my sisters when we were adults. When my sister left her abusive marriage, nada made it a point to shame her and use the events to slap her around. Same with toxic brother. Same thing happened when nada didn't like the race of another sister's boyfriend. In both cases, she got a reaction from my siblings, one of grief , the other of fear. With the younger sis she took down all the pictures and my sister found that unbearable and called nada sobbing. I contrast that to my situation where I really don't care what nada does with my pictures and would be relieved if she just gave up trying to insert herself into my life (her latest attempts involve email to my children). There was a time that I was on my way to being a totally independent person. Then, that detour of years to " take care " of the FOO really cost me. At any rate, I now find myself having nada-less thought stretches. It was very painful at the beginning of the process. I felt wobbly, weak, and jittery. I no longer feel that way. Realizing that *I* had control of my environment through boundary setting was the single most important realization. This boundary setting has overflowed into other aspects of my life, I don't feel like I have to please people anymore. When my mother in law calls with an invite, I now say, " Let me think about it and I will get back to you). (Which is exactly what she has been telling me for years). When people ask me to do stuff, I don't feel guilty by saying " no " anymore. At the beginning of the separation, I felt the need to sway family members over to my side, but within hours knew that was a losing battle. It took HUGE catalyst of my sister's death, 9/11 and a deep psychic exhaustion from dealing with petty nada stuff over years to make me realize I had to make changes and face the past. I know my siblings are not anywhere near that, and part of leaving nada behind has been leaving them too. It is more painful to consider that they may not love me anymore -- siblings who have gone through hell together also are a tribe-- but I can only worry about myself. That was a HUGE lesson to learn. I've found that I have had happy days, blah days, sad days, tired days, but not emotionally wild swinging days. I feel more on an even keel. Taking one day at a time really helps. Focusing at the work at hand (my kids) really helps. One last thing is that I have stopped going to therapy. Without being arrogant, it came to a point where the therapist said I had achieved the goals of therapy (gaining insight) and she wanted me to meet with a priest because in her analysis, my problems were caused by toxic religion (she didn't get the BPD stuff). I found it very helpful during the beginning of the process to go, but later felt that I was doing better with this list. The therapist never gave me any homework other than journaling, and said I was very functional and was doing great considering my life story. She said I had PTSD and some self esteem issues but those could be worked on. Also, the sessions were not covered after all by insurance and were costing a lot. I do have insurance that would cover, but no openings among the therapists who are local. I really have found this group to be the best thing for me. Well that was a ramble... kathleen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2002 Report Share Posted May 5, 2002 Hi , you said <<< Cutting me free was the best thing they could have done for me. (I'm sure that wasn't the plan!) >>> My Nada alternates between waif-mail about how I deserted her and left her helpless, to telling me and anybody who'll listen how she, in her graciousness, has 'let me have some space' so I can find some 'peace for my tormented soul'. Ick! Yick! Blech! My psychopathology teacher said when he comes out of an intake session with a new patient feeling like something is sticking to him, he knows it's 'the big B'. I couldn't agree more!! Bye Hope __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2002 Report Share Posted May 5, 2002 Hi Hope, Right now nada is telling folks around town who will listen, that she is moving away because of me. You remember when I saw my bro? ( an earlier post) I had commented to him that nada makes my youngest uncomfortable. Now nada works at the senior citizen center, so there are many people who get " the pleasure " of hearing her nonsense. My response is this. " My mother should not be telling my girls that I am dead when I'm standing not three feet away. What does she expect a child to feel? " That takes care of any bad impressions right there! I love living in a small town!!!!!! The more she tries to submarine me the more she causes her own destruction. This moving away thing she has pulled before so I'm sure it's just words to try and wound, I really don't believe she will. (But I can hope can't I? lol) Warm thoughts, ( the " good " little witch) -- Re: Re: FYI: " Shame-wounding " Hi , you said <<< Cutting me free was the best thing they could have done for me. (I'm sure that wasn't the plan!) >>> My Nada alternates between waif-mail about how I deserted her and left her helpless, to telling me and anybody who'll listen how she, in her graciousness, has 'let me have some space' so I can find some 'peace for my tormented soul'. Ick! Yick! Blech! My psychopathology teacher said when he comes out of an intake session with a new patient feeling like something is sticking to him, he knows it's 'the big B'. I couldn't agree more!! Bye Hope __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2002 Report Share Posted May 5, 2002 <<<My Nada alternates between waif-mail about how I deserted her and left her helpless, to telling me and anybody who'll listen how she, in her graciousness, has 'let me have some space' so I can find some 'peace for my tormented soul'. >>>>>>>>>>> Yep, it's all about them, but NOT THEIR fault - lol....... Ilene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2002 Report Share Posted May 5, 2002 I know the feeling, . Mother actually did that to me too, except it was after the meltdown when we no longer had any contact. She sold her beloved home of 25 years to hide from me in a hot windy desert some 200 miles away. Never mind that she hates hot climates. Never mind that she would NOT move near me, 400 miles away, so I could look after her. Her reason? It was too hot where I lived! She wanted to HIDE from me? Why? What did she think I'd do to her, for heaven's sakes? And so it goes with BPDs and their contorted logic and endless nonsense. Smiles! Carol wrote: > Right now nada is telling folks around town who will listen, > that she is moving away because of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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