giving your kids what you didn't get

[Guest guest]

Hello -

Thanks so much for the warm welcome, I guess you already know how

very much it means to me J

Ilene, you asked about my Dad. He was never much of a parent to me,

even less than my Mom. He is a lot less abusive, just way out in the

twilight zone. (Depression plus a whole bunch of other stuff I don't

know if I care to unravel). What makes it hard is that there is stuff

I like and admire about him, too. But I'm very mad at him for being

so pathetic and useless. The past few years I've been working as a

flight attendant and so I got to see him every few months (we live in

different countries). On the one hand I'm glad I got to get to know

him better, and I know how happy he was to see me (I'm glad I made

him happy), on the other I wish he'd just evaporate. Then I think

about the contradictions in my thoughts, and I think about how I'm

splitting, like my nada, and I get angry and upset over the whole

thing.

About having my own family - I'm several steps away from that. I

don't necessarily care if I have kids or not, but I very much want to

reach a point in my life where it will be OKAY for me to have kids.

That's my goal.

Joy, I am also nervous about being found out here. Lately (since I've

opened up this chapter in dealing (emotionally) with my family, I've

been having bad dreams about my mom showing up, and sometimes on the

street I see someone who looks a tiny bit like it might be her - and

my heart skips a beat.

I'm working hard now on being strong, I feel like I need to grow for

a while in a safe place before I can really stand saying anything to

anybody. It's too difficult for me to face her directly now. Until

then - I guess I'll always be a bit nervous about running into her.

Once I did run into her - 5000 miles away from where we both live

(literally!!! in another country!!).

Cyndie, it's so true what you say, that the truth will set you free!

Being honest to my inner self has always been my main goal. Sometimes

I think other people can't handle my truth, it helps not to broadcast

it to indiscriminantly. For example, lately I've found myself telling

friends things I've kept inside forever, and it can be too much for

the friends to handle. I told a few friends about mom's diagnosis,

and about her having been raped by an uncle for a year or two when

she was about 3 or 4 years old. I had this huge bursting need to

tell, I hadn't even realized how much I needed to tell somebody about

it (I've always known it happened, ever since I can remember. One

more black point for mom in my book: telling that to her kids when

they were little). But sharing that sort of thing can be too much for

other people to handle, when they haven't had that sort of family

history (not to mention it's practically too much for me to handle,

WITH many examples of that type of family history). So sometimes info

like that can really scare friends, they get torn, not knowing how to

react, they feel some obligation to 'help', and it's sometimes hard

to make them understand that their help is summed up in listening.

Period.

Kathy, I was thinking about your question about loving and accepting

our friends for who they are. I think if you resent someone, it's

because of something you haven't entirely forgiven them or yourself

for. There's a big difference in being a friend and being a

therapist/counselor. I've lost friends because they heard rough

things about my family situation and history… they felt they had to

'help' (=be the counselor) when I was looking for the friend. It

wasn't what I wanted from them, and they were not capable of filling

the part.

, you were saying most parents here were not officially

diagnosed.. my mom was, as Narcissistic and Borderline, while she was

in marriage counseling with my dad. My Dad told me the diagnosis; I

have no clue whether the therapist told her or just him.

I have mixed feelings about the value of a 'real' diagnosis; on the

one hand, labels can be very damaging, on the other hand - it has

helped me find info on the subject. Plus it sometimes helps me shut

up people who try to go on after me about how she is normal - I can

'prove' to them she is not. But it's sad that I get into situations

where I feel I need to do that.

Cyndie, I also feel you can't talk out these types of issues with

'normal' people, because they don't understand. It's the same with

any issue - if you don't have it, you can't possibly understand it.

You can empathize and offer support, but not truly understand.

It's been my choice, as well, to stay solitary until I have a better

sense of identity. I have become aware of my pattern of trying to

find somebody to fill my emptiness. I don't think that's the answer.

It was the answer (or at least was supposed to be) at a small age -

Mahler (psychologist) talks about emotional 'filling up' at the age

when you're starting to walk - you go out and explore, but every now

and then come back to hold on to mom's skirts for a while for that

fill (like filling up on gas at the station). I think I did not have

that filler then, and on some level I'm still looking for it. That's

where I'm stuck right now. Once I get past it, I expect to be able to

truly have adult relationships. I'm glad to have identified this

pattern in me, but it also makes me mad to realize I'm stuck at such

a particularly infantile stage (1 year old! Really! That's what I'm

always mad at mom about (being infantile)… and nothing irritates me

more than finding another way I resemble her).

Minja, I am the only daughter with two brothers. They are younger, my

littlest brother has had similar experiences as I, but we have not

yet been able to talk much about it. I'm pretty sure my being the

daughter has to do with my having received most of the crap. It's not

just because I'm the oldest. Maybe there's a pattern here, the nadas

trying to 'merge' with their daughters; I know mine senses there is

something messed up about her, so she tries to live it through me

instead of dealing with it herself. That must be why breaking away is

repeatedly called 'divorcing' nada. That implies a VERY close,

strangling relationship. The saying gives me the creeps. When I was

in high school and living with nada, I had recurring nightmares about

waking up in the same bed with her, naked (as if we had had sex the

night before). GROSS! And her earliest hate mail to me included

accusations that I was trying to 'divorce' her. GO AWAY!!

Another word I used to think about in connection to my situation is

eggshells. I moved away so I wouldn't have to walk on eggshells

anymore. What a surprise to find others with that same choice of

words!! I haven't read the book yet; I'll be in the US in February

and will pick up a copy (I still don't feel comfortable buying things

over the net).

, I had a SO for a while whom nada fell totally in love with. It

was disgusting. Her trying to live through me went to the extreme of

her flirting around him, buying him presents that were more

appropriate for a lover than for one of your kids' friends. When we

broke up, she called him up, crying, about how she wanted them to

still be in touch… One thing that's critical to me in relationships

with men is that they be able to see she's screwy. Not everybody can.

Anon - as you see, I am taking literally your statement that no posts

are too long J This is such a dam bursting for me, it's gotta get

out. Right now I don't think I am whole enough to be able to have

kids. Even if I don't repeat ANY of my parents' mistakes, there are

zillions of other mistakes for me to make. And here's the real issue:

Nada had no intention of repeating her parents mistakes. She really

did do a better job of parenting than they did. She certainly did not

plan on all the abuse she administered. She broke the cycle, yet the

cycle continued. I have made great progress but I'm not out of the

circle yet, I'm not sure I can ever totally be out. Nada married

young because she was so eager to have kids, so she could give them

everything she didn't get. It meant she was parenting for herself,

not for us. She was always conscious of how little support she got -

so she tried to give it to us. I don't mean to offend the mothers on

this list who have said how they are trying to give their kids all

they didn't get. This is what happened to me: everytime there was a

situation where she could do something she didn't get, she'd be doing

it BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T GET IT and not because we needed it. One

example is when she was visiting me at college and we went to the

supermarket, she paid because 'her mother never paid for anything for

her'. She also went into parenthood determined to be better than her

parents, to break their cycle. All the parenting she gave us, she was

actually trying to fill in her need for parenting. Every time she'd

sit with us when we were sick, she'd really be focused on how when

she was sick, she wasn't taken care of. So she was really parenting

herself, not me. It shows!!!!

Cyndie, you were talking about your nada giving herself too much

credit for being a good mother: that is exactly what I'm talking

about here. If the way she was raised =BAD, then doing everything the

opposite does not =GOOD.

The little girl in me is still in need of parenting; until I get that

straightened out, I'm not about to have kids. If I have kids, it has

got to be for THEM, not for me doing it better than my parents.

I haven't given up having kids, but having them is not really my

goal. My goal is ME. The line about our upbringing making us better

parents has backfired miserably in several generations of my FOO.

It's a nice idea, but I'd like to clarify: it is OVERCOMING your

upbringing that can make you a better parent.

Joy, I've found affirmations are a great way to strengthen a

commitment to change! I'd like to suggest you try them in the present

tense: 'I now respect myself'.

Kathleen - your post about nada feeding the babies choking candy, and

showing the girls R movies brought up memories that made me shiver.

When my brother was real little (I'm talking two years old) he went

through a suicidal phase. Once he stood in the kitchen with a huge

knife positioned to plunge into his belly. Nada talked to him about

'why'. She was playing with his death!! Another time he stood on the

window sill and said he was going to jump. She held firmly onto his

shirt (like that would have been enough to catch him) and said, okay,

jump!! Again, she was focusing on HER own guilt feelings of almost

having had an abortion when she was pregnant with him. Instead of

focusing on the kid, and saying how she absolutely loved him alive

and would not allow him to die. In a twisted way, she was trying to

hear why he felt that way so she could figure out if her own guilt

feelings were justified or not, and she rationalized it by trying to

'let him express his feelings'. Oooooh, the creepy shivers!!

As for sex - like I said, she was abused long-term as a child. So

again, instead of working on making her own attitude to sex positive,

she became determined that her kids have healthy sex lives. (trying

to give them what she didn't get, again!!) She still has no clue

about what is appropriate and what isn't. How disgusting to try to be

part of your kids' sex lives. She'd encourage my brothers to have

girls sleep over at the age of 14 'because it's healthy'!!! With me

it was slightly different.

Okay, this is turning out longer than three papers I'm late turning

in. Bye for now, everybody; thanks for listening. I'll be thinking of

you and sending you all love and light.

Hope.

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