Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 > Almost all of us talk about how our nadas " rage " . I'm curious what > raging means. Is it a temper tantrum, complete with rolling on the > floor? Or maybe just yelling? Or could it be more subdued, like being > moody? Or how about a could shoulder? Or an attitude? Or maybe just > being irritable. Or perhaps an overreaction to something that they > can't be reasoned with? Any ideas? > > Mother never yelled, screamed or had temper tantrums. That's why I'm > wondering about this. > > Smiles! > Carol Hi, Carol, If you haven't already read " Understanding the Borderline Mother, " try to find a copy. Seems to cover all the things you mentioned. My nada, who is very high functioning, rages. Then, when that's over, she gives you the cold shoulder for a while. It always starts with an overreaction to something, and they can never be reasoned with, any more than you can reason with a 2 year old in the middle of a temper tantrum. Some act out, some act in, but it's all the same thing. Hope this helps. Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 > Almost all of us talk about how our nadas " rage " . I'm curious what > raging means. For me, there are distinct physical changes, as well as changes in her pattern of speech that signal rage is imminent. (BTW - I was absolutely fascinated by the fact that we KOs are good at learning languages, b/c we had to translate for nadas.) I define rage as a series of statements (usually irrational) that are based around the unquenchable emotional needs. In my experience, these are always accompanied by anger. Since her needs can never be met, there is no way to solve the problem, hence the anger, hence the raging behavior associated with the anger. This is my personal definition. Physically, my nada gets the same look in her eye that a cat gets when it has cornered an animal, like a mouse. (oh no - FOG - I feel guilty saying this!) I can't describe this very well, but it is a very distinct look in her eyes, kind of a wild, angry look, but also kind of relishing the moment, the way a cat does as it torments its prey. The BP boss didn't get that look. She got a different look - one that seemed to me to be based on coveting - sort of " I want something I can never have " - it was more of a haunted look. In verbal terms, this is also when she starts making statements that don't make sense, although it usually takes me a minute or two to figure out that is what she is doing (my neocortex is processing...) Mine starts off with subtle digs, and then escalates, usually to full fledged anger, shouting, hanging up on me on the phone. Shouting at me in the car, while I was trapped, was also a favored tactic. Thinking back on a lot of these episodes, several just don't make any sense - also part of what I would define as rage. Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 Thanks, Joy. I haven't read " Understanding the Borderline Mother " , but it's at the top of my To Do list. Smiles! Carol crazydoggroomer wrote: > > > > Almost all of us talk about how our nadas " rage " . I'm curious what > > raging means. Is it a temper tantrum, complete with rolling on the > > floor? Or maybe just yelling? Or could it be more subdued, like > being > > moody? Or how about a could shoulder? Or an attitude? Or maybe > just > > being irritable. Or perhaps an overreaction to something that they > > can't be reasoned with? Any ideas? > > > > Mother never yelled, screamed or had temper tantrums. That's why > I'm > > wondering about this. > > > > Smiles! > > Carol > > Hi, Carol, > > If you haven't already read " Understanding the Borderline Mother, " > try to find a copy. Seems to cover all the things you mentioned. My > nada, who is very high functioning, rages. Then, when that's over, > she gives you the cold shoulder for a while. It always starts with > an overreaction to something, and they can never be reasoned with, > any more than you can reason with a 2 year old in the middle of a > temper tantrum. Some act out, some act in, but it's all the same > thing. Hope this helps. > > Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 Thanks, Hebrides. I guess raging can range all the way from very subtle innuendos to screaming and outright physical harm. Perhaps it's the surprise attackishness about it that's significant. Smiles! Carol hebrides36 wrote: > > > > Almost all of us talk about how our nadas " rage " . I'm curious what > > raging means. > > For me, there are distinct physical changes, as well as changes in > her pattern of speech that signal rage is imminent. (BTW - I was > absolutely fascinated by the fact that we KOs are good at learning > languages, b/c we had to translate for nadas.) > > I define rage as a series of statements (usually irrational) that are > based around the unquenchable emotional needs. In my experience, > these are always accompanied by anger. Since her needs can never be > met, there is no way to solve the problem, hence the anger, hence the > raging behavior associated with the anger. This is my personal > definition. > > Physically, my nada gets the same look in her eye that a cat gets > when it has cornered an animal, like a mouse. (oh no - FOG - I feel > guilty saying this!) I can't describe this very well, but it is a > very distinct look in her eyes, kind of a wild, angry look, but also > kind of relishing the moment, the way a cat does as it torments its > prey. The BP boss didn't get that look. She got a different look - > one that seemed to me to be based on coveting - sort of " I want > something I can never have " - it was more of a haunted look. > > In verbal terms, this is also when she starts making statements that > don't make sense, although it usually takes me a minute or two to > figure out that is what she is doing (my neocortex is processing...) > Mine starts off with subtle digs, and then escalates, usually to full > fledged anger, shouting, hanging up on me on the phone. Shouting at > me in the car, while I was trapped, was also a favored tactic. > Thinking back on a lot of these episodes, several just don't make any > sense - also part of what I would define as rage. > > Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2002 Report Share Posted March 19, 2002 << I'm curious what raging means. >> Yo Other O's, My nada rolls on the couch with her legs frogging in the air, waves her arms around and flaps like a chicken, <bock, bock, bock>, froths at the mouth with spittle stringing like the creature in Alien, screams, lunges at me, calls names, put-downs, snide remarks, and has a glazed-over look in her eyes and a look on her face that I refer to as " nose-face " . When I was little I could tell a rage coming on by saying, " Momma, your eyes and teeth are mad and you have your nose on " . While protecting myself through these outbursts I would always put my arms up over my head but it was always twisted around as the " you almost hit me " dance. Sheesh. Never touched her ever, trying to protect myself but she could go on for hours about me 'almost' hitting her. Any other KOs get the 'you almost hit me' dance? Cache ya later, Rita " And she'll have fun, fun, fun 'till her daddy takes the keyboard away. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 >>>Mother never yelled, screamed or had temper tantrums. That's why I'm wondering about this.>>>>> Carol, mine didn't often scream but she'd get huffy, throw a fit and leave if I crossed her. Just like a kid " I'm going to take my toys and go home....so there! " My nada was high functioning. She didn't stand there like a wall and make me look like the one with the problem as I evertually turned to raging to try and get my own opinion listened to. It still makes me mad! Then she'd throw the behavior back at me months or years later. dig, dig, .... Ilene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 all responses about raging fit my nada. i think it term is best described by the distinct feeling BEHIND the emotion. it's not " typical anger " . it's not a typical shouting match between two people. it when nada has reached her limit and there is no turning back. and there is no " making it better " for her. it may be explosive, it may be just a quick dismissal (hanging up on you or storming out and away from you) it may be just a look in the eyes of sheer hatred- just out of her mind. this has me thinking about when i have my own little rages...i ALWAYS have the ability to calm myself down...apologize...think threw it...my nada NEVER did that. she raged and left ME to pick up the emotional pieces...she just got on with life. nev > > > Almost all of us talk about how our nadas " rage " . I'm curious what > > > raging means. > > > > For me, there are distinct physical changes, as well as changes in > > her pattern of speech that signal rage is imminent. (BTW - I was > > absolutely fascinated by the fact that we KOs are good at learning > > languages, b/c we had to translate for nadas.) > > > > I define rage as a series of statements (usually irrational) that are > > based around the unquenchable emotional needs. In my experience, > > these are always accompanied by anger. Since her needs can never be > > met, there is no way to solve the problem, hence the anger, hence the > > raging behavior associated with the anger. This is my personal > > definition. > > > > Physically, my nada gets the same look in her eye that a cat gets > > when it has cornered an animal, like a mouse. (oh no - FOG - I feel > > guilty saying this!) I can't describe this very well, but it is a > > very distinct look in her eyes, kind of a wild, angry look, but also > > kind of relishing the moment, the way a cat does as it torments its > > prey. The BP boss didn't get that look. She got a different look - > > one that seemed to me to be based on coveting - sort of " I want > > something I can never have " - it was more of a haunted look. > > > > In verbal terms, this is also when she starts making statements that > > don't make sense, although it usually takes me a minute or two to > > figure out that is what she is doing (my neocortex is processing...) > > Mine starts off with subtle digs, and then escalates, usually to full > > fledged anger, shouting, hanging up on me on the phone. Shouting at > > me in the car, while I was trapped, was also a favored tactic. > > Thinking back on a lot of these episodes, several just don't make any > > sense - also part of what I would define as rage. > > > > Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 >>this has me thinking about when i have my own little rages...i ALWAYS have the ability to calm myself down...apologize...think threw it...my nada NEVER did that. she raged and left ME to pick up the emotional pieces...she just got on with life.>>> nev, this is why we aren't BP! We know when we did something wrong! and WE admit it! Nada always blamed me (us)! Ilene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 > Almost all of us talk about how our nadas " rage " . I'm curious what > raging means. Well, I consider 'raging' to me more of an excessive expression of the feeling of BP rage, which could be anything from a cold shoulder to physical attacks. It's usually loud and verbal, but it can also be cold and cutting and vicious. My nada gave the cold shoulder, said vicious things meant to cut your feelings of self worth down to nothing, belted us in anger, screamed and yelled, called names, slashed plants, smashed belongings, killed or threaten to kill pets. I consider all of this to be 'raging.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 > look on her face that I refer to as " nose-face " . When I was little I could > tell a rage coming on by saying, " Momma, your eyes and teeth are mad and you > have your nose on " . LOL! I didn't have this kind of 'early warning system' with my nada, but with my ex, I could always tell when he was getting close to letting loose, because his upper lip would almost totally disappear behind his moustache. <g> Very subtle clue, but you can bet I got *real* good at watching for it. T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 > it...my nada NEVER did that. she raged and left ME to pick up the > emotional pieces...she just got on with life. Yup, they 'vomit' their emotional pain all over you and leave you to clean up the mess. But once it's out of their system, they seem to forget all about it, so if you have problems dealing with the aftermath, they just don't " get it. " I mean, they feel all better now, so what's *your* problem??? T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 > > it...my nada NEVER did that. she raged and left ME to pick up the > > emotional pieces...she just got on with life. > > Yup, they 'vomit' their emotional pain all over you and leave you to > clean up the mess. But once it's out of their system, they seem to > forget all about it, so if you have problems dealing with the > aftermath, they just don't " get it. " I mean, they feel all better > now, so what's *your* problem??? > > T. Yeah, that's for sure. Then, when you're not over it, if you can't hide it and act like you are, if you're like me, you get to be accused of being " bitter and resentful. " If you don't show it, you're " cold-hearted " because you've learned to hide your emotions so well. Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 <<< Yeah, that's for sure. Then, when you're not over it, if you can't hide it and act like you are, if you're like me, you get to be accused of being " bitter and resentful. " If you don't show it, you're " cold-hearted " because you've learned to hide your emotions so well. Joy >>>>>>> This is the situation that caused my depression to come into being...stuffing those feelings for so many years! Ilene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 > >>this has me thinking about when i have my own little rages...i ALWAYS > have the ability to calm myself down...apologize...think threw > it...my nada NEVER did that. she raged and left ME to pick up the > emotional pieces...she just got on with life.>>> > > nev, this is why we aren't BP! We know when we did something wrong! and WE > admit it! My therapist would agree, and add to that, that a BP in the throws of a rage doesn't have the ability to talk herself out of one. I was reading SWOE today and read the section on rages. Remember too, that a BP's rage is not a rational act. Yes, while we nons may rage, we may appear irrational - but it's not the same. We may rage for a good, solid, healthy codpendent reason (lol!) such as being the doormat and blowing when you're tired of being a doormat. A BP will rage for NOTHING at all!!! A non will feel remorse for her rage - a BP will feel justified - as nev said, *get on with life*! There are differences... Cyndie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 Yeah, a nada will rage because she wasn't in the pictures at Christmas holding the baby in her red dress! Ilene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 I can look at her eyes. They are glassy and scary looking. The thing I have noticed resently is that they are very similar to my schizo- affective brithers looks when he ris psychotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 nevele wrote: > it's not " typical anger " . it's not a typical shouting > match between two people. it when nada has reached her > limit and there is no turning back. and there is no > " making it better " for her. it may be explosive, it > may be just a quick dismissal (hanging up on you or > storming out and away from you) it may be just a look > in the eyes of sheer hatred- just out of her mind. So, it can be an attitude, or hanging up the phone. You see, I thought mother didn't rage, because she wasn't a yeller and didn't have temper tantrums. > this has me thinking about when i have my own little > rages...i ALWAYS have the ability to calm myself > down...apologize...think threw it... Me too! > my nada NEVER did that. Neither did my mother. She was always right. I don't ever remember her apologizing or making up to anyone for anything. Her mottos were, " I don't need anyone! " or " I'm not running after anyone " . > she raged and left ME to pick up the emotional > pieces...she just got on with life. Yup! That's how it was. There was no talking things out, no reasoning, no compromises. It was her way, or no way. I react to everyone like I did with mother. My antenna are finely tuned to the subtlest shifts in current. I thought the slightest displeasure was all my fault. The difference now is, I'm more aware that I'm doing it, and why. So how do I turn off the antenna or remove the batteries? And all along, I thought I was born this way. Smiles! Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2002 Report Share Posted March 20, 2002 ilene@... wrote: > > > Mother never yelled, screamed or had temper tantrums. > > That's why I'm wondering about this.>>>>> > > Carol, mine didn't often scream but she'd get huffy, throw a > fit and leave if I crossed her. Just like a kid " I'm going to > take my toys and go home....so there! " > My nada was high functioning. She didn't stand there like a > wall and make me look like the one with the problem as > I evertually turned to raging to try and get my own opinion > listened to. Yup! That's when I blew up like Mt. St. Helens three years ago. And that was the beginning of the end. > It still makes me mad! Yes, but time heals, Ilene. > Then she'd throw the behavior back at me months or > years later. dig, dig, .... Yup! She'd triggered things all right, and when I finally reacted, it was all my fault. And she made sure everyone in the whole world knew it too! After all, what decent caring daughter would slap her own mother in the face? And what normal decent person wouldn't feel sorry for her? What she didn't tell them was plenty. And what no one dared to ask was my side of the story. It's all history now. Just a bad dream. Smiles! Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2002 Report Share Posted March 21, 2002 --- Chu7190565@... wrote: > Any other KOs get the 'you almost hit me' dance? > Mine was more violent, and would grab hold on a handful of my hair so I couldn't get away from the rage. When I would attempt to defend myself and hold on to her arm to lessen the tension on my hair, she would spend DAYS freaking about the bruises on her wrist, showing people and telling them how I abuse HER, and how I hurt her wrists even though she has arthritis. In answer to Carol's question, my nadas rages usually had a wind up period that I could see coming, but there was nothing you could do to prevent it. No matter how much you tiptoed around she would find something to flip out about, a look, a comment taken out of context, the degree to which my chores were done correctly, etc.... My nadas rages included screaming and yelling, hysterical crying, followed by hours of quiet sobbing. If I tried to get away from her or talked back at all (any attempt to defend myself) it usually resulted in being hit. If I shut the door to my room she would kick it in, and then I would be in trouble for the door. I developed a habit of admitting to whatever it was that she was accusing me of. It was just easier than defending myself. Her version of reality was the only one that mattered anyway. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2002 Report Share Posted March 21, 2002 > Yeah, that's for sure. Then, when you're not over > it, if you can't > hide it and act like you are, if you're like me, you > get to be > accused of being " bitter and resentful. " If you > don't show it, > you're " cold-hearted " because you've learned to hide > your emotions so > well. > Joy > That is so accurate! I kind of forgot about the twist and turn afterwards. She constantly used others behaviour to justify hers. If she pushed hard enough to get a response from me, then she would use that as proof of how normal she was. If I didn't respond (which I was REALLY good at) it infuriated her. She would tell me how cold and cruel I was, and how I had no feelings. I use to tell her she had enough for both of us <g> > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2002 Report Share Posted March 21, 2002 > > > > Yeah, that's for sure. Then, when you're not over > > it, if you can't > > hide it and act like you are, if you're like me, you > > get to be > > accused of being " bitter and resentful. " If you > > don't show it, > > you're " cold-hearted " because you've learned to hide > > your emotions so > > well. > > Joy > > > > That is so accurate! I kind of forgot about the twist > and turn afterwards. She constantly used others > behaviour to justify hers. If she pushed hard enough > to get a response from me, then she would use that as > proof of how normal she was. If I didn't respond > (which I was REALLY good at) it infuriated her. She > would tell me how cold and cruel I was, and how I had > no feelings. I use to tell her she had enough for > both of us <g> > > You had enough courage to tell her something?????You are my HERO!!! I can remember putting on that blank look, too. Just like it says in UTBM. Like your nada, it made mine furious. But they gave us no choice because anything else was just more fuel for the fire. If I cried because the awful things she accused me of hurt so much, then she accused me of feeling guilty! My T said the tears made her realize how much she was hurting me, and that was her way to stop them. After all this time, I still won't ever let her see me cry. That would be too personal, too vulnerable. It's a shame that we can never let our guard down to let our mothers in, not if we want to survive emotionally. Joy > > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2002 Report Share Posted March 21, 2002 My Mom did that too. She would scream and rant for an hour or so, and then go take a nap, claiming that us rotten kids had worn her out. Cyndy --- adovbs wrote: > > it...my nada NEVER did that. she raged and left ME to pick > up the > > emotional pieces...she just got on with life. > > Yup, they 'vomit' their emotional pain all over you and leave > you to > clean up the mess. But once it's out of their system, they > seem to > forget all about it, so if you have problems dealing with the > aftermath, they just don't " get it. " I mean, they feel all > better > now, so what's *your* problem??? > > T. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2002 Report Share Posted March 21, 2002 Your wrong if you resent it, so you turn off your feelings. And then you're criticized for being 'oblivious'. Cyndy --- ilene@... wrote: > > > <<< > Yeah, that's for sure. Then, when you're not over it, if you > can't > hide it and act like you are, if you're like me, you get to be > accused of being " bitter and resentful. " If you don't show > it, > you're " cold-hearted " because you've learned to hide your > emotions so > well. > Joy > >>>>>>> > This is the situation that caused my depression to come into > being...stuffing > those feelings for so many years! > > Ilene > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2002 Report Share Posted March 21, 2002 --- ilene@... wrote: > Carol, mine didn't often scream but she'd get huffy, throw a fit and leave if > I > crossed her. Just like a kid " I'm going to take my toys and go home....so > there! " > My nada was high functioning. She didn't stand there like a wall and make me > look like the one with the problem as I evertually turned to raging to try > and > get my own opinion listened to. It still makes me mad! Then she'd throw the > behavior back at me months or years later. dig, dig, .... > > Ilene I do have to get UTBM. Maybe because she was our Grand-nada, I don't remember ever being raged at. Constantly harped at, day in, day out. We did have a reprieve though. My father kept the house where my mother died and we would spend the summers there. We (dad, sister, brother, me) left the day school let out and did not come back till the night before school started. This was supposedly because I could not get along with Grand-nada. Boy have times changed. The first summer I was 11, sister 8, brother 5. To day leaving us home unsupervised would probably be called child abuse. Then it was called a relief. Billie __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2002 Report Share Posted March 21, 2002 --- Chu7190565@... wrote: > Any other KOs get the 'you almost hit me' dance?>>> Yup, all the time. While trying to slap me, Nada'd be yelling that I'm hitting her. I'm so glad I don't see her anymore!!! When I used to sometimes come home to visit (when the dog was still alive, and my little bro still lived there), sometimes there'd be sprays of blood on the walls, and she'd say it was because bro tried to hit her. Ooooh, creepy!!! I'm so glad he's out, I hope he stays out. By the way, my Nada's ragings are not only by raising her voice and screaming. She rages in her hate mail to me... by sarcasm... her anger is so close beneath the surface that anything triggers it. And her reaction can be anything from a snide response to all-out throwing things. Cheers Hope __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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