Re: boundaries ........ and fathers

[Guest guest]

> As you heal, you'll realize

> that the guilt is THEIR

> guilt, put their by the years of their abuse.

I've really had it with this guilt I carry around all

the time. I can see the importance to recognizing

what's really mine and what's been implanted.

From the outside, people think of me as a

self-confident, warm, person. But inside I feel

guilty all the time. I'm ready to give it up. But

I've carried it so long I don't think it will be easy.

>If your fada is

> as subtle as my nada then you might want to learn

> more about verbal abuse.

> Verbal abuse destroys your self esteem .

The verbal abuse can be so subtle it cuts you and you

don't even notice. It would never happen like this

from a stranger. I've had friends who were blatantly

verbally abused by a parent, and I have actually

envied them because at least it is clear what they

were dealing with. My father is so subtle, everything

is disguised as love. But its not. Its so confusing.

> Your fada wants nothing

> to do with your husband,

> because in the BP mind, your husband caused you to

> abandon fada.

I think that hits it right on the head.

>Every child

> should abandon their parents for their mate - it's

> normal. Parents should

> become friends and encouragers - which we KOs know

> they can't become, since they

> are children

> in adult bodies. You don't owe your dad anything

> except to grow up and become

> the best person, wife and parent that you can be.

> That's healthy! Parents owe

> it to their kids to let them grow up and become

> separate, which BPs aren't

> willing to do.

Thank you! I need to hear this. I think if I hadn't

made a huge distance from him over the last 10 years,

my marriage probably wouldn't have survived it.

> Boundaries are VERY

> important - they protect

> us.

They blame you for trying to have boundaries.

>SHE should have been

> upset that she hurt ME! Oh how they twist our

> thinking. She even gave me a

> twisted version of Christian theology - her version

> of how a Christian should

> forgive and forgive and forgive.....

That must have made it very hard to free yourself. If

you're " going against G-d's will " by being angry.

I've gotten similar messages.

> Well, I've rambled on and on, but I hope I've

> encouraged you to do what's best

> for you and your family.

No, not at all. Thank you so much. I need all the

encouragement I can get!

Joy

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[Guest guest]

>

> Yes, he does in a sense. I'm not one to freely give

> away respect simply because a title or name command

> it.

> But there is a degree of respect that is warranted.

>

Fair enough, but I do think that if a child is happily

married and raising a family, a parent should have the

common decency to treat the spouse like a person.

> After I disconnected her from my life, she went on a

> distortion campaign about me. I intercepted a

> message

> from her to him. It went like this, " I can't believe

> I

> blamed you all these years for keeping my daughter

> from me. It was never you. It's always been my

> daughter (no name, just ownership.) She's the bad

> one.

> I'm soooo sorry I blamed you all these years. She

> doesn't deserve you. "

That is just awful!

> maybe he blames

> him for taking you away from him.

I think that's it.

Joy

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[Guest guest]

My father wasn't subtle, he was bombastic. Very clear to see

what he was doing, it was always all or nothing. Nada was

subtle, she knew how to " abuse with an eyebrow " . I preferred my

father's style bec. I knew how to deal with things right there. I

always felt free to yell back at him and take him on. Sometimes I

would be shouting at him and he would be shouting back and I

would be quaking and we would calm down in the same

encounter and that would be that. Fresh air would blow through

the room.

He did not know how to be snide or underhanded and he had a

really low tolerance for insincerity. Nada on the other hand had a

personal religion about not raising your voice at her.

She also did not like being referred to as " she " or " her " in her

presence. Instead of saying, " She wants it this way. " We had to

say, " Mama wants it this way " .

Mama was the traditional mother word in our family. My kids call

me Mom or Mommy.

I didn't enjoy the bombastic encounters with my father, and after

he died there was a sense of great relief about that. The quiet

stuff is really bad for me.

When I was a kid with nada's FOO, they would be whispering in

the dining room and when I walked in, there would be a feigned

cheerfulness and a quick glancing around the table. I knew they

were talking about me. It was awful.

Kathleeln

> > As you heal, you'll realize

> > that the guilt is THEIR

> > guilt, put their by the years of their abuse.

>

> I've really had it with this guilt I carry around all

> the time. I can see the importance to recognizing

> what's really mine and what's been implanted.

>

> From the outside, people think of me as a

> self-confident, warm, person. But inside I feel

> guilty all the time. I'm ready to give it up. But

> I've carried it so long I don't think it will be easy.

>

> >If your fada is

> > as subtle as my nada then you might want to learn

> > more about verbal abuse.

> > Verbal abuse destroys your self esteem .

>

> The verbal abuse can be so subtle it cuts you and you

> don't even notice. It would never happen like this

> from a stranger. I've had friends who were blatantly

> verbally abused by a parent, and I have actually

> envied them because at least it is clear what they

> were dealing with. My father is so subtle, everything

> is disguised as love. But its not. Its so confusing.

>

>

> > Your fada wants nothing

> > to do with your husband,

> > because in the BP mind, your husband caused you to

> > abandon fada.

>

> I think that hits it right on the head.

>

> >Every child

> > should abandon their parents for their mate - it's

> > normal. Parents should

> > become friends and encouragers - which we KOs know

> > they can't become, since they

> > are children

> > in adult bodies. You don't owe your dad anything

> > except to grow up and become

> > the best person, wife and parent that you can be.

> > That's healthy! Parents owe

> > it to their kids to let them grow up and become

> > separate, which BPs aren't

> > willing to do.

>

> Thank you! I need to hear this. I think if I hadn't

> made a huge distance from him over the last 10 years,

> my marriage probably wouldn't have survived it.

>

> > Boundaries are VERY

> > important - they protect

> > us.

>

> They blame you for trying to have boundaries.

> >SHE should have been

> > upset that she hurt ME! Oh how they twist our

> > thinking. She even gave me a

> > twisted version of Christian theology - her version

> > of how a Christian should

> > forgive and forgive and forgive.....

>

> That must have made it very hard to free yourself. If

> you're " going against G-d's will " by being angry.

> I've gotten similar messages.

>

> > Well, I've rambled on and on, but I hope I've

> > encouraged you to do what's best

> > for you and your family.

>

> No, not at all. Thank you so much. I need all the

> encouragement I can get!

>

> Joy

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

--- Joy wrote:

> >

> Fair enough, but I do think that if a child is

> happily

> married and raising a family, a parent should have

> the

> common decency to treat the spouse like a person.

Absolutely!

> > maybe he blames

> > him for taking you away from him.

>

> I think that's it.

>

> Joy

Yes, he lost control over you. You *belong* to someone

else now. Someone else now gets to *brainwash* you and

turn you against him... Least that's what my nada

would say about my ex.

She never gave me any credit for having a brain of my

own - she blamed him and his family for turning me

against her. It wasn't until I separated that she

realized that it was ME all along! Lol!

Actually now that I think of it, it may not have been

that she didn't give me credit for having a brain - I

think it's that she gave *herself* too much credit for

being a good mother! Hah! She was a monster and to

this day she will postulate how she sacrificed her

life for her kids. This must be it, b/c in the end,

it's always about nada...

Ah-Hah! I love light bulb moments. Haven't had one in

awhile.

Cyndie

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[Guest guest]

Joy wrote:

> The verbal abuse can be so subtle it cuts you and you don't even

> notice... I've had friends who were blatantly verbally abused by a

> parent, and I have actually envied them because at least it is clear

> what they were dealing with. My father is so subtle, everything is

> disguised as love. But its not. Its so confusing.

Joy, this is my experience with my mom as well.

In my counseling ethics class last semester, we looked at cases in which

therapists and/or college instructors had sexually abused clients and/or

students. The effects on the abuse victims were interesting. The clients

or students who had been abused covertly (therapist flirting with them,

ogling, complimenting on appearance, etc) had a harder time in recovery.

Part of the reason is because the abuse was not as obvious, and the

clients had more difficulty naming exactly what had happend and their

associated feelings. They doubted themselves more. Those who had been

overtly abused, ie fondling, penetration, were much more clear (in

hindsight) that they had been totally abused and exploited. This isn't

to suggest that being overtly abused isn't traumatic; it is. And, too,

these studies were looking at adults, not children. Still, I thought the

findings were interesting and made a lot of sense.

Kathy

[Guest guest]

--- jordhka@... wrote:

The effects on the abuse victims were

> interesting. The clients

> or students who had been abused covertly (therapist

> flirting with them,

> ogling, complimenting on appearance, etc) had a

> harder time in recovery.

> Part of the reason is because the abuse was not as

> obvious, and the

> clients had more difficulty naming exactly what had

> happend and their

> associated feelings. They doubted themselves more.

Yes, and much of this covert abuse is socially

acceptable as well. You may mention something about it

to someone and it's so acceptable that you may be told

to get a thicker skin... we accept too much abuse that

is so often subtle and covert. The person sitting next

to you may not know you just got a dig, but you do. If

you mention the dig to person sitting next to you,

they think you're the one who's causing a problem.

Same thing for covert sexual abuse...

I work w/someone who often comes out w/little

condesending quips - or sarcastic comments which are

said as jokes. These little things bely hidden anger,

criticisms and judgements - or what I used to know as

hidden. Now I see people who do this as not hiding

their abusive side. It's quite apparent to me that

they are - but think they hide it. All in all, it's

acceptable. But if you take someone who outright says,

" Hey, jerk face. " That's something obvious that won't

be tolerated and everyone can agree.

, " The Verbally Abusive Relationship "

was quite insightful into verbal abuse and the misuse

of language... Verbal abuse is not all about calling

someone a name, it's much more than that. It's crazy

making and creates serious self-doubts.

Cyndie

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[Guest guest]

--- thanksforthisday

wrote:

> My father wasn't subtle, he was bombastic. Very

> clear to see

> what he was doing, it was always all or nothing.

> Nada was

> subtle, she knew how to " abuse with an eyebrow " . I

> preferred my

> father's style bec. I knew how to deal with things

> right there. I

> always felt free to yell back at him and take him

> on.

I know both styles of abuse are awful, but your

father's style sure sounds easier to deal with than

your mother's or my father's. No one can get angry

with my father. If you do you are hurting him, and

everyone feels responsible for his feelings. I would

so much rather have things be what they appear to be.

Joy

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[Guest guest]

> Actually now that I think of it, it may not have

> been

> that she didn't give me credit for having a brain -

> I

> think it's that she gave *herself* too much credit

> for

> being a good mother!

Probably both ... She can't see you as a strong

person capable of knowing your own truth. And she

can't face the reality of what she has done.

With my father its like this: If my hurt and mistrust

are justified, then that makes him a bad person and he

can't live with it. So I have to be the messed up

one. It's like my life or his. If he doesn't

invalidate me then he thinks he'll be destroyed or

something. So he has to destroy me instead. I don't

think he has any idea he's doing this. He really

thinks he's a loving father who's been rejected by his

daughter.

Joy

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[Guest guest]

Yes, it does make sense. Because of that, for years I

would have moments of realizing what had happened to

me, but then I would fade into a fog. I knew that I

had to protect myself, and I did stay away from him,

but felt so guilty because everything is subtle and I

lose sight of what's real and what's not real and feel

like its all my fault.

Joy

> Joy, this is my experience with my mom as well.

>

> In my counseling ethics class last semester, we

> looked at cases in which

> therapists and/or college instructors had sexually

> abused clients and/or

> students. The effects on the abuse victims were

> interesting. The clients

> or students who had been abused covertly (therapist

> flirting with them,

> ogling, complimenting on appearance, etc) had a

> harder time in recovery.

> Part of the reason is because the abuse was not as

> obvious, and the

> clients had more difficulty naming exactly what had

> happend and their

> associated feelings. They doubted themselves more.

> Those who had been

> overtly abused, ie fondling, penetration, were much

> more clear (in

> hindsight) that they had been totally abused and

> exploited. This isn't

> to suggest that being overtly abused isn't

> traumatic; it is. And, too,

> these studies were looking at adults, not children.

> Still, I thought the

> findings were interesting and made a lot of sense.

>

> Kathy

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

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