Re: creating healthy friendships

[Guest guest]

>Over

> the years I

> feel like

> > I've created the same role with her that I have

> with everyone.

> The

> > listener. The counselor. The one who will always

> be there for

> everyone.

I tend to take exactly the same role with people.

> I love the company of women who are authentic and

> have interesting things to talk about (besides

>other people).

>

I have connected with a number of wonderful women in

recent but I have trouble really letting anyone in. I

just don't know how to do it. I am there for

everyone, but I dont let people in.

The best success I had in sharing myself was when I

was in women's support groups a couple of times. They

had some structure to them which makes it easier to

share, and the consistency of meeting every week

helped make it real.

Joy

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- Joy wrote:

> The best success I had in sharing myself was when I

> was in women's support groups a couple of times.

> They

> had some structure to them which makes it easier to

> share, and the consistency of meeting every week

> helped make it real.

Groups are an excellent way to meet and share with

people. I've been involved with Divorcecare groups.

There's a mutual sharing of pain where the goal is to

heal and grow. I've met some wonderful people through

the program.

I'd have to say that might be where difference is in

the freindships I'd had compared to what I want and

look for today. That being those who are growing and

those who perpetuate the cycle of misery...

I've been so busy lately w/working two jobs that time

for developing friendships hasn't been possible. But

when I do, I won't be that dysfuntional person magnet

that I used to be... I wanna have some fun now...(0:

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Cyndie McCoy wrote:

> I'd have to say that might be where difference is in

> the freindships I'd had compared to what I want and

> look for today. That being those who are growing and

> those who perpetuate the cycle of misery...

Amen, Cyndie. You said that so well. I definitely value having room to

" get things off your chest, " and be honest about sadness, anger, pain,

etc... We all need to be able to vent now and then. But I have so little

tolerance now for people who wallow in their misery and claim absolutely

no responsibility for their lives. In the past, that is all I seemed to

have in my life--people who complained, blamed, felt sorry for

themselves!

Even my first husband was a " tragic figure " of sorts. Not that his life

was all that tragic, but even to this day, he just seems sad, depressed,

and resentful that life dealt him a bad hand. He dragged me down

terribly--I think I married a combination of my mother & father. This is

part of why we divorced. I tend toward optimism, and even a bad hand can

be played creatively. And one can always choose another card game, if

one is not enjoying the current one.

My current husband is much more fun. He truly is my best friend. Our

relationship is just flawed enough to keep us challenged and growing (we

both have baggage we are working on, and some of our issues overlap --

oh, there's a surprise ;-). But we have so much fun together, and we

truly respect and cherish one another.

> I've been so busy lately w/working two jobs that time

> for developing friendships hasn't been possible. But

> when I do, I won't be that dysfuntional person magnet

> that I used to be... I wanna have some fun now...(0:

The fun thing sounds good. ) Two jobs? That sounds like a lot. Right

now I don't have much time for developing friendships either. As I think

more on the friendship issue, I think it will probably evolve naturally

once I'm back out in the world of work. And hopefully the neon sign over

my head blinking " schmuck " will be gone by then! For now, I want to work

on getting my head and my boundaries clear.

Kathy

[Guest guest]

--- jordhka@... wrote:

> My current husband is much more fun. He truly is my

> best friend. Our

> relationship is just flawed enough to keep us

> challenged and growing (we

> both have baggage we are working on, and some of our

> issues overlap --

> oh, there's a surprise ;-). But we have so much fun

> together, and we

> truly respect and cherish one another.

That's what I want! I don't want perfection and I

don't want someone who doesn't think he has any

issues. Everybody has them!

My ex thought I was the only one who had them in our

marraige. We'd sit and talk and I say, " Ya know your

childhood wasn't hunkie dory either, you have some

issues from that childhood that you carry with you... "

His reply? " I know my childhood wasn't great, but what

good does it do to rehash old stuff? I prefer to move

on. " What he didn't realize is if you don't rehash it

you don't move on... he thought I was the one stuck in

stuff b/c I always talked about it...

Gosh it must be refreshing to have a relationship like

that! I'm glad to hear that they do exist...!

Cyndie, growing up at last...(0;

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- jordhka@... wrote:

> Re: my 30+ year friendship, Anon wrote:

>

> > If you feel you are not getting something out of

> the relationship,

> > don't maintain it simply out of fear, obligation,

> or guilt (FOG) --

> > that's what we do with our families too.

>

That's good advice. We, as codependents need to learn

that it's okay to take care of the self first.

> There is definitely FOG involved in my feelings

> about this friendship,

> Anon. I'm not sure what the fear is... maybe I'm

> afraid I would be

> making a huge mistake by ending such a longterm

> friendship, and also

> afraid of hurting my friend deeply. It doesn't seem

> fair of me, given

> that I'm the one who has changed, to suddenly end

> the friendship after

> so many years. We were a good " fit " because she is

> incredibly needy and

> self centered, and I am incredibly self sacrificing.

> Now that I'm

> changing, where does that leave her?

It leaves her the choice to make some changes in her

own life. She can either start her own recovery or

stay where is feeling vicimized - again.

>

> The obligation part... hmmm...don't we have an

> obligation to love and

> accept our friends for who they are?

And who put this notion in your head? Should I have

stayed in my eggshell marriage b/c I should have

accepted him for who he was? And nada for that matter?

We have an obligation to ourSelves first. Without the

self, there is no relationship.

It seems

> selfish for me to end it

> just because I'm not getting something out of it.

> Yet I don't really

> understand why I'm *not* getting something out of it

> and she is.

Friendships are wonderful. Feeling someone outside of

your immediate FOO cares about you is a good feeling.

Yet, as in anything, there's got to be balance. At one

point you both and fed and fed off of the venting

sessions - mutually received and gave. It's turned out

to be a onesided. It's out of balance. You've grown,

she hasn't...

Except

> that I'm tired of my old role of always being

> available to people in

> emotional crises. Then again, maybe I have a better

> memory for those

> " crisis " phone calls from my friend, and I'm

> forgetting that we might

> have had better times? She once told me that she

> missed all the laughing

> we used to do. It seems like ages to me that we

> really had just a fun

> conversation with lots of laughs, if ever. Even if

> there are a few

> laughs sprinkled in among the 1-2 hour " therapy "

> conversations, is it

> worth it? (asking myself this, I guess...)

The relationship has grown old and stagnant. Your

friend is clinging to a memory of what once was...

this is where the FOG can come rolling in?

Scenario: Between a man and a woman - that last kiss

we had in 1995, boy that was the best... that last

kiss would not suffice to sustain the relationship in

the present. A relationship is not kept alive by a

single memory... Only the memory is kept alive. We

deny what is real by living through a memory...

>

> The guilt part... I guess is the same as the

> obligation part. Sort of

> follows that if I have an obligation to accept my

> friend just the way

> she is, then I will feel guilty if I reject her. She

> had a terribly

> cold, self centered, rejecting mother... I don't

> want to be one more

> hurt for her.

I wouldn't want to be one more hurt either. But

sometimes it's that last hurt that finally changes us

-sets our feet on the path we need to go. We are all

responsible for ourSelves. You are, your friend is...

there must be some balance in there - someway to say

where you are and where the relationship is without

hurting her...

>

> I know I sound terribly confused here. I think it's

> the FOG. I am hoping

> that someone on the list can see through whatever it

> is that I'm hung up

> on here.

I can see it and it is a dilemma. I think the key

might be to evaluate and analyze the relationship more

so than the persons in it... that way, a single person

wouldn't be made to feel to blame...

Maybe I need to talk to my friend very

> honestly about what I am

> feeling? How I am changing? Do I tell her that she

> feels too needy for

> me right now?

Ouch! That would hurt! Even though it's honest and

it's true... perhaps it's best to approach it from a

relationship standpoint rather than a *you* one?

Another words, you might want to hash over the

progress of the relationship (as he is fixated on a

memory of it)... or the lack of progress (growth)

there of... focus on the journey, where you both were

in it, where it's been sitting for so long and where

it is now? Perhaps, just bring up a discussion about

relationships in general and patterns you see in them

that have existed in your life rather than focusing

specifically on this one? Leave her something to think

about and figure out while making your insight and

perspective on your lifes relationship patterns known?

That I am trying to establish

> healthier relationships

> (which will mean I think our friendship is

> unhealthy)? Should I come up

> with a clear idea of what I want to say to her, and

> then see how she

> responds? Maybe if I give her a chance, we can

> create a healthier

> friendship. Why am I afraid to be honest with her?

You're afraid b/c you're not quite sure how to set a

boundary healthily. You've evaluated the relationships

in your life. It was easy to cut off FOO, but it's

harder w/friends of whom you've once had mutual

support... You don't want to hurt someone either.

Hurting someone causes guilt... We don't want to carry

the burden of a pain we put in someone else. But that

can be worked through too...!

>

> > If I was feeling short on friends, though, I would

> look for people

> > that go places and do things that I like. For

> instance, I like yoga,

> > so perhaps I would sign up for a yoga class and

> try to meet people

> > there.

Sounds like fun!

>

> I am meeting lots of people in my counseling program

> at the university.

> Interesting though that I am attracting needy people

> even at the grad

> level (and people who are training to become

> counselors!) People who

> want my notes, who ask me how to do this particular

> paper, citation, how

> to do research electronically. I swear there is a

> neon sign above my

> head that says, " SCHMUCK AVAILABLE - USE ME. " I know

> I play a big part

> in developing these particular kinds of

> relationships, but I'm not sure

> how I'm doing it.

The classic codependent caretaker. You must really

*get it* and be good at it too... people love a

guru!!! Or a Mommy...!

>

> I did join a yoga class about two years ago, but I

> don't have time now.

> We are quite rural, and everything takes travel,

> including my classes at

> the university, and all of my daughter's doctors'

> appointments. I met a

> couple of interesting women at the yoga class, and

> one of them

> approached me and another woman and suggested that

> we exchance phone

> numbers and maybe get together for lunch. I thought,

> " Great! Just what I

> want, some women friends with common interests. " But

> none of us ever

> called each other. Maybe they took the next yoga

> class and again

> connected, but I didn't. I was afraid to start a new

> friendship. Maybe

> because they always turn out bad somehow.

You weren't ready is all... for me, I know there is

work still yet to be done. I need to know that I have

something more to offer than mere baggage! I'm getting

there though...(0: I'm just about ready...

>

> > If you are not happy with something in your life,

> you have to take

> > responsibility for it, and try to do right by

> yourself (even if it

> > won't be very easy).

>

> I agree, but I think I missed " How to make healthy

> friendships 101. " Or

> I'm just scared because I've been burned. Isolation

> is safer, and I am

> so busy that I don't really feel lonely. But I would

> like a couple of

> good women friends.

Once you know about all of the dysfunctional dynamics,

it's easier to weed out healthy vs unhealthy people.

It's also easier not to split all bad or good... it's

easier to accept short comings. Your discernment

skills are finely honed and you're finally ready...

I'm having fun at this point just making

observations... it's so very interesting! Little by

little I'm allowing people in a safe little bit at a

time... others I see red flags in, I will only give so

much too...

>

> > Try not to get discouraged, too. Close friends

> are very special, and

> > it may take some time to find someone that fits

> the bill.

>

> Thanks for the encouragement, Anon. I agree, real

> friends *are* special.

> And sometimes, the right person turns up at the

> right time. I had one

> good friend from my former job who never betrayed

> me. We talked about

> almost anything and everything. However, I moved

> further away, and we

> now have such different things going on in our

> lives. My kids are grown

> and I'm working on master's degree, she is home

> running a daycare and

> has two young children. We still exchange Christmas

> & birthday cards,

> but it has been 4 years since we've seen one

> another. Sometimes I think

> about contacting her and seeing if we can reconnect,

> but there is

> something that holds me back even here! We used to

> have our jobs in

> common, now I'm wondering if we would have anything

> in common at all.

> Maybe that doesn't matter.

Maybe it doesn't...! Then maybe it's a memory you'd be

wanting keeping alive like your 30+ year freind!

>

> Sorry this is so long. Sometimes I figure things out

> as I write, but I

> don't think I really have figured this whole

> friendship thing out yet.

It's hard when we're taking that *moral inventory*

they mention in twelve steps... takes work!

I

> feel like there is a big mental/emotional block

> regarding this whole

> issue for me, and maybe it's because of all the past

> betrayals. I just

> don't feel safe in personal relationships. I do

> think, however, that a

> 30+ year friendship deserves some honesty on my part

> (however scary) and

> a chance to establish healthier dynamics.

Best of Luck to you in all your endeavors for the New

Year...

Cyndie!

ps... I had the *best* time making new freinds on my

job last night... all on my terms, w/me being me! I

loved it...!!! Yippee!!!

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Cyndie McCoy wrote:

> The relationship has grown old and stagnant. Your

> friend is clinging to a memory of what once was...

> this is where the FOG can come rolling in?

This is true. My friend told her therapist about me, in the context of:

" Why can't I find another friend as good as Kathy has been only close to

home? Her therapist suggested to her that she was idealizing our

friendship. When Jan told me that, I agreed with her therapist. I said

something to the effect that having a telephone friendship for over 30

years doesn't tell us a whole lot about how we would be if we had a face

to face friendship, if we lived in the same city. ly, I don't think

we would be that compatible. I would feel suffocated by her, I think.

Even as a child I found her overbearing and controlling at times. So I

am actually glad for the distance between us, because I was not

assertive enough to be able to draw boundaries with someone as

overbearing as her.

> We are all responsible for ourSelves. You are, your friend is... there

> must be some balance in there - someway to say

> where you are and where the relationship is without

> hurting her...

I hope so. That's what I'm working on. I keep hearing the words, " Don't

do for others what they can do for themselves, " or " Don't overfunction

for others. " I don't really want to continue with business as usual, and

I would like to be honest. But I want to avoid hurting her. And also

keep the door open for us to create something that might work better for

both of us, if that's realistic.

> I think the key might be to evaluate and analyze the relationship more

> so than the persons in it... that way, a single person wouldn't be

> made to feel to blame...

I agree. I don't think blame is helpful. However, the truth is that Jan

is a very self centered person. Even her daughters accuse her of this.

She tells me she knows it's true, but because she didn't get what she

needed growing up, she feels she doesn't have it to give. It is

frustrating for me to hear that.

One time she went to pick her daughter up after a college orientation.

Her daughter was all bubbly & excited and wanted to talk about her

experience. Jan told me she said to her daughter, " , I have had a

rough day and I need someone to just listen to me for awhile. "

blew up at her, and said something like, " I am sick of always having to

be there for you. Why can't you be there for me sometimes? " So Jan

called me because she was so upset with . I simply said, very

quietly, " Jan, you are the mom. It is not 's job to take care of

you. " At first she sort of gasped and said, " What did you say? " So I

repeated it. I just felt so strongly about it. Then she took a deep

breath, and after a moment said, " You're right. You are absolutely

right. But Kathy, I feel so empty. How can I give when I'm empty? " So we

talked about healthier options. But see, then I'm in the therapist mode

again. And she already has several therapists and support groups going!

I think she has repeated with her daughters exactly what her mother did

to her.

> Maybe I need to talk to my friend very honestly about what I am

> feeling? How I am changing? Do I tell her that she

> feels too needy for me right now?

>

> Ouch! That would hurt!

I wouldn't say it in exactly those words. But she has said to me many

times, " I feel so needy. " And I have also said a few times that I don't

think we should be each others' therapists. She also knows about the

difficult things that have gone on in my family the last 3 years -- 2

deaths, my daughter's burns from the fire, my son had a major crisis,

and my own health struggles. We have a couple of other family members

facing serious health crises right now that she doesn't even know about.

Life has been a real mess.

> Perhaps, just bring up a discussion about

> relationships in general and patterns you see in them

> that have existed in your life rather than focusing

> specifically on this one?

We actually have spent many hours discussing relationships in general,

but I don't think she applies any of our insights and discoveries to our

particular relationship. I think it will require a more direct approach

for her to understand that I am interested in changing some of *our*

dynamics.

She hasn't called me for several months now, which was a much needed

relief for me. I know she is waiting for me to call her, because the

last couple of times we talked she specifically said, " Call me sometime,

Kathy. " And in my Christmas card she wrote, " Call me. I miss you. " So

here's what I'm thinking. I could call and wish her a happy new year and

ask how she likes her new house, how the girls are, etc. and keep it

light. If she tries to go into some heavy stuff, I could just be honest

and say something general, like, " I don't know, but I have all the faith

that you will figure it out. "

> > I was afraid to start a new friendship. Maybe

> > because they always turn out bad somehow.

>

> You weren't ready is all... for me, I know there is

> work still yet to be done. I need to know that I have

> something more to offer than mere baggage! I'm getting

> there though...(0: I'm just about ready...

Good insight, Cyndie. And good validation for me too. When I read that

other people on this list have isolated themselves for awhile, it seems

like the right thing to do in some situations. At least for awhile, as

you rethink how you've created relationship dynamics in the past and

figure out how to create healthier ones for the future. I seem to think

there is something wrong with me because I don't have any active,

ongoing friendships right now. Of course, this is the first time in my

life that I have been this isolated. But my living circumstances have

never been like this before either.

> ps... I had the *best* time making new freinds on my

> job last night... all on my terms, w/me being me! I

> loved it...!!! Yippee!!!

That is great, Cyndie! You are a good success story for me. I really

think that being comforable among others begins with being comfortable

in our own skin. Cyndie, a thousand thanks for taking the time to

respond to my long, drawn out post so thoughtfully. You've given me lots

to think about. I'll get there. I'm way overdue, but I'm determined!

Best,

Kathy

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

Your freind sounds very BP to me... yuk. I have

inserts below...

--- jordhka@... wrote:

<snip>So I

> am actually glad for the distance between us,

> because I was not

> assertive enough to be able to draw boundaries with

> someone as

> overbearing as her.

Interesting in that BP's are overbearing - always

taking the lead in relationships, conversations,

everything evolves around them, etc. Hard to draw

boundaries w/them too - they don't like boundaries.

Maybe you'd be stuck in a situation where no matter

how tactfully or kindly you'd put it, it wouldn't

matter...

>

> > We are all responsible for ourSelves. You are,

> your friend is... there

> > must be some balance in there - someway to say

> > where you are and where the relationship is

> without

> > hurting her...

>

> I hope so. That's what I'm working on. I keep

> hearing the words, " Don't

> do for others what they can do for themselves, " or

> " Don't overfunction

> for others. " I don't really want to continue with

> business as usual, and

> I would like to be honest. But I want to avoid

> hurting her. And also

> keep the door open for us to create something that

> might work better for

> both of us, if that's realistic.

If she's BP, nothing is in the realm of realistic. And

everything you say here is true, " Don't do for others

what they can do for themselves. " From what you've

posted in this post, it appears she doesn't key in on

helpful information. ie, her therapist telling her

she's idealizing a relationship (which puts lots of

pressure on you to live up to her expectations, etc.)

And then you agreeing w/the therapist and it goes

right over her head.

>

> > I think the key might be to evaluate and analyze

> the relationship more

> > so than the persons in it... that way, a single

> person wouldn't be

> > made to feel to blame...

>

> I agree. I don't think blame is helpful. However,

> the truth is that Jan

> is a very self centered person. Even her daughters

> accuse her of this.

> She tells me she knows it's true, but because she

> didn't get what she

> needed growing up, she feels she doesn't have it to

> give. It is

> frustrating for me to hear that.

And being a caretaking codpendent, you want her to get

it... but she won't open herself up to her own stuff.

Instead she uses it as a crutch and an excuse to rely

on others to fill her up. Being self-centered is a

major BP characteristic. Red flag!!!

>

> One time she went to pick her daughter up after a

> college orientation.

> Her daughter was all bubbly & excited and wanted to

> talk about her

> experience. Jan told me she said to her daughter,

> " , I have had a

> rough day and I need someone to just listen to me

> for awhile. "

> blew up at her, and said something like, " I am sick

> of always having to

> be there for you. Why can't you be there for me

> sometimes? " So Jan

> called me because she was so upset with . I

> simply said, very

> quietly, " Jan, you are the mom. It is not 's

> job to take care of

> you. " At first she sort of gasped and said, " What

> did you say? " So I

> repeated it. I just felt so strongly about it. Then

> she took a deep

> breath, and after a moment said, " You're right. You

> are absolutely

> right. But Kathy, I feel so empty. How can I give

> when I'm empty? " So we

> talked about healthier options. But see, then I'm in

> the therapist mode

> again. And she already has several therapists and

> support groups going!

> I think she has repeated with her daughters exactly

> what her mother did

> to her.

Yup - her BP mother... hmm? And here's Kathy, her

FOGged in friend, put on this pedastal for constant

Narcissistic supply as well??? But see, she needs

Kathy, b/c Kathy is not a *paid* friend. Kathy sits

there for hours and listens to her so she must be

worthy if Kathy does that... Kathy feeds her... gives

her that supply she needs...

>

> > Maybe I need to talk to my friend very honestly

> about what I am

> > feeling? How I am changing? Do I tell her that she

> > feels too needy for me right now?

> >

> > Ouch! That would hurt!

>

> I wouldn't say it in exactly those words. But she

> has said to me many

> times, " I feel so needy. " And I have also said a few

> times that I don't

> think we should be each others' therapists. She also

> knows about the

> difficult things that have gone on in my family the

> last 3 years -- 2

> deaths, my daughter's burns from the fire, my son

> had a major crisis,

> and my own health struggles. We have a couple of

> other family members

> facing serious health crises right now that she

> doesn't even know about.

> Life has been a real mess.

So she lacks empathy for your situation? She may know

about your ongoing family issues, but does she really

listen or understand them? Or is she, again, merely

feeding off you? Hmmm, the good ole boundary blockade

is suddenly popping up and it's saying, " You're too

needy and self-centered and you use me to feed your

own N supply... Get some help toots. " Bad ole me...

Maybe she's just got a massive dose of fleas? Steer

her over to the SWOE & UTBM books. Codependency books?

>

> > Perhaps, just bring up a discussion about

> > relationships in general and patterns you see in

> them

> > that have existed in your life rather than

> focusing

> > specifically on this one?

>

> We actually have spent many hours discussing

> relationships in general,

> but I don't think she applies any of our insights

> and discoveries to our

> particular relationship. I think it will require a

> more direct approach

> for her to understand that I am interested in

> changing some of *our*

> dynamics.

Yup, and I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it

either. Looking at the history, it appears you've been

used...?

>

> She hasn't called me for several months now, which

> was a much needed

> relief for me. I know she is waiting for me to call

> her, because the

> last couple of times we talked she specifically

> said, " Call me sometime,

> Kathy. " And in my Christmas card she wrote, " Call

> me. I miss you. " So

> here's what I'm thinking. I could call and wish her

> a happy new year and

> ask how she likes her new house, how the girls are,

> etc. and keep it

> light. If she tries to go into some heavy stuff, I

> could just be honest

> and say something general, like, " I don't know, but

> I have all the faith

> that you will figure it out. "

Sounds good, and then you could top it off with,

" Gotta go, Happy New Year. " Sometimes we can instill

boundaries without having to tell someone what they

are. We show them... and sometimes we need to show

someone repeatedly in order for them to get the hint.

And sometimes, they never get the hint...

>

> > > I was afraid to start a new friendship. Maybe

> > > because they always turn out bad somehow.

> >

> > You weren't ready is all... for me, I know there

> is

> > work still yet to be done. I need to know that I

> have

> > something more to offer than mere baggage! I'm

> getting

> > there though...(0: I'm just about ready...

>

> Good insight, Cyndie. And good validation for me

> too. When I read that

> other people on this list have isolated themselves

> for awhile, it seems

> like the right thing to do in some situations. At

> least for awhile, as

> you rethink how you've created relationship dynamics

> in the past and

> figure out how to create healthier ones for the

> future. I seem to think

> there is something wrong with me because I don't

> have any active,

> ongoing friendships right now.

I have what I need right now. Right now the focus is

on filling mySelf up. I'm not lonely, I'm content. I

may not want to sit here like this forever, but right

now - it's good...(0:

Of course, this is

> the first time in my

> life that I have been this isolated. But my living

> circumstances have

> never been like this before either.

Mine either... so it is what it is, and you don't beat

yourSelf up over it. Turn off the tapes that society

plays, ie. " She's a recluse! " Do what you need to do

for you...

>

> > ps... I had the *best* time making new freinds on

> my

> > job last night... all on my terms, w/me being me!

> I

> > loved it...!!! Yippee!!!

>

> That is great, Cyndie! You are a good success story

> for me. I really

> think that being comforable among others begins with

> being comfortable

> in our own skin.

I agree. I used to be that chameleon always changing

and adapting to the other person/s. I didn't. I was

me, whatever that happens to be (as I'm not fully

developed yet, lol!) and people still liked me! It was

great...(0;

Cyndie, a thousand thanks for

> taking the time to

> respond to my long, drawn out post so thoughtfully.

> You've given me lots

> to think about. I'll get there. I'm way overdue, but

> I'm determined!

And I have faith that you'll figure it out!!! Ok, ok,

I'm a little fresh... lol!!!

Take Care Kathy,

Cyndie

ps - BTW, you're welcome! On a closed list we had a

short topic on being good at figuring out mysteries...

maybe that's my calling? Hehe!

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

I think you and Cyndie have an excellent dialogue going here. I

haven't posted because everything I had to say was said! This

caught my eye, though:

<<

So here's what I'm thinking. I could call and wish her a happy

new year and ask how she likes her new house, how the girls are,

etc. and keep it light. If she tries to go into some heavy

stuff, I could just be honest and say something general, like,

" I don't know, but I have all the faith that you will figure it

out. "

>>

This is an excellent technique that I have found very useful. I

learned it from a book called The Dance of Anger. I initially

didn't pursue this book because I thought it was about anger

management (not a problem for me), but it isn't at all. I read

it a while ago, so I don't remember everything, but the

technique you mention here was one of the most valuable things I

learned. It was in a chapter on triangulation -- where someone

tries to drag you into the middle of something. My mom does

this all the time... she's mad at my brother, or dad for

something, and she calls me up and tells me all about it. She

puts me in the position of feeling like I have to choose sides.

The book suggested that the best way to respond is to say that

you believe the two parties involved are capable of working it

out, and leave it at that. I tried it on my mom the next day

(what fortuitous timing) and it worked great!

I realize your situation is a little different -- your friend is

talking about people that you aren't really invested in (her

kids, other friends, etc.), but I still think it's a useful

technique, and I also wanted to mention how well it had worked

for me.

Best of luck with the situation, and please keep us updated on

your choices and how things go. It helps so much to hear how

other people handle things, and what the outcome is. And I have

to admit I agree with Cyndie -- your friend sounds a lot like a

BP, or perhaps a flea-infested KO. Of course you know her

better than us, but maybe it's something to think about.

Cheers,

Anon

--- jordhka@... wrote:

> Cyndie McCoy wrote:

>

> > The relationship has grown old and stagnant. Your

> > friend is clinging to a memory of what once was...

> > this is where the FOG can come rolling in?

>

> This is true. My friend told her therapist about me, in the

> context of:

> " Why can't I find another friend as good as Kathy has been

> only close to

> home? Her therapist suggested to her that she was idealizing

> our

> friendship. When Jan told me that, I agreed with her

> therapist. I said

> something to the effect that having a telephone friendship for

> over 30

> years doesn't tell us a whole lot about how we would be if we

> had a face

> to face friendship, if we lived in the same city. ly, I

> don't think

> we would be that compatible. I would feel suffocated by her, I

> think.

> Even as a child I found her overbearing and controlling at

> times. So I

> am actually glad for the distance between us, because I was

> not

> assertive enough to be able to draw boundaries with someone as

> overbearing as her.

>

> > We are all responsible for ourSelves. You are, your friend

> is... there

> > must be some balance in there - someway to say

> > where you are and where the relationship is without

> > hurting her...

>

> I hope so. That's what I'm working on. I keep hearing the

> words, " Don't

> do for others what they can do for themselves, " or " Don't

> overfunction

> for others. " I don't really want to continue with business as

> usual, and

> I would like to be honest. But I want to avoid hurting her.

> And also

> keep the door open for us to create something that might work

> better for

> both of us, if that's realistic.

>

> > I think the key might be to evaluate and analyze the

> relationship more

> > so than the persons in it... that way, a single person

> wouldn't be

> > made to feel to blame...

>

> I agree. I don't think blame is helpful. However, the truth is

> that Jan

> is a very self centered person. Even her daughters accuse her

> of this.

> She tells me she knows it's true, but because she didn't get

> what she

> needed growing up, she feels she doesn't have it to give. It

> is

> frustrating for me to hear that.

>

> One time she went to pick her daughter up after a college

> orientation.

> Her daughter was all bubbly & excited and wanted to talk about

> her

> experience. Jan told me she said to her daughter, " , I

> have had a

> rough day and I need someone to just listen to me for awhile. "

>

> blew up at her, and said something like, " I am sick of always

> having to

> be there for you. Why can't you be there for me sometimes? " So

> Jan

> called me because she was so upset with . I simply said,

> very

> quietly, " Jan, you are the mom. It is not 's job to take

> care of

> you. " At first she sort of gasped and said, " What did you

> say? " So I

> repeated it. I just felt so strongly about it. Then she took a

> deep

> breath, and after a moment said, " You're right. You are

> absolutely

> right. But Kathy, I feel so empty. How can I give when I'm

> empty? " So we

> talked about healthier options. But see, then I'm in the

> therapist mode

> again. And she already has several therapists and support

> groups going!

> I think she has repeated with her daughters exactly what her

> mother did

> to her.

>

> > Maybe I need to talk to my friend very honestly about what I

> am

> > feeling? How I am changing? Do I tell her that she

> > feels too needy for me right now?

> >

> > Ouch! That would hurt!

>

> I wouldn't say it in exactly those words. But she has said to

> me many

> times, " I feel so needy. " And I have also said a few times

> that I don't

> think we should be each others' therapists. She also knows

> about the

> difficult things that have gone on in my family the last 3

> years -- 2

> deaths, my daughter's burns from the fire, my son had a major

> crisis,

> and my own health struggles. We have a couple of other family

> members

> facing serious health crises right now that she doesn't even

> know about.

> Life has been a real mess.

>

> > Perhaps, just bring up a discussion about

> > relationships in general and patterns you see in them

> > that have existed in your life rather than focusing

> > specifically on this one?

>

> We actually have spent many hours discussing relationships in

> general,

> but I don't think she applies any of our insights and

> discoveries to our

> particular relationship. I think it will require a more direct

> approach

> for her to understand that I am interested in changing some of

> *our*

> dynamics.

>

> She hasn't called me for several months now, which was a much

> needed

> relief for me. I know she is waiting for me to call her,

> because the

> last couple of times we talked she specifically said, " Call me

> sometime,

> Kathy. " And in my Christmas card she wrote, " Call me. I miss

> you. " So

> here's what I'm thinking. I could call and wish her a happy

> new year and

> ask how she likes her new house, how the girls are, etc. and

> keep it

> light. If she tries to go into some heavy stuff, I could just

> be honest

> and say something general, like, " I don't know, but I have all

> the faith

> that you will figure it out. "

>

> > > I was afraid to start a new friendship. Maybe

> > > because they always turn out bad somehow.

> >

> > You weren't ready is all... for me, I know there is

> > work still yet to be done. I need to know that I have

> > something more to offer than mere baggage! I'm getting

> > there though...(0: I'm just about ready...

>

> Good insight, Cyndie. And good validation for me too. When I

> read that

> other people on this list have isolated themselves for awhile,

> it seems

> like the right thing to do in some situations. At least for

> awhile, as

> you rethink how you've created relationship dynamics in the

> past and

> figure out how to create healthier ones for the future. I seem

> to think

> there is something wrong with me because I don't have any

> active,

> ongoing friendships right now. Of course, this is the first

> time in my

> life that I have been this isolated. But my living

> circumstances have

> never been like this before either.

>

> > ps... I had the *best* time making new freinds on my

> > job last night... all on my terms, w/me being me! I

> > loved it...!!! Yippee!!!

>

> That is great, Cyndie! You are a good success story for me. I

> really

> think that being comforable among others begins with being

> comfortable

> in our own skin. Cyndie, a thousand thanks for taking the time

> to

> respond to my long, drawn out post so thoughtfully. You've

> given me lots

> to think about. I'll get there. I'm way overdue, but I'm

> determined!

>

> Best,

> Kathy

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the feedback on the friendship thing, Cyndie. You know, I'm

not sure whether my friend, Jan, and/or her mom are BPD... I've

suspected NPD with her mom, but I wasn't around her enough to know for

sure. Jan could have NPD as well or a bad case of fleas from growing up

under a mom with NPD (I think this is likely). I do think both her

history and mine is what is making it more difficult to create healthier

boundaries with our friendship. We both played a role in what has been,

and it will take both of us to rearrange things, should we decide to

invest in that.

If Jan is open to the idea, we could both be doing work on this and be

mutually supportive of one another's efforts. In my mind, she is like

the members of this list... another child of a personality disordered

parent who is struggling to understand and change unhealthy patterns

(which she has been working on for a very long time). Since she is a

friend of 30+ years, and because she is so open to the idea of doing her

own work and therapy, I think this is a possibility. However, I

definitely do not want to be responsible in any way for getting her to

" see the light " or advising her in any quasi-professional manner. There

probably was a time where I would have taken this on (back in my

codependent days), but I'm way beyond that now. She is a friend, not a

client. And I do not need to take on responsibility for any other

person's growth. I have enough on my plate for the moment.

Not one therapist has ever suggested BPD or NPD to her as a dx for

herself (I know, because she tells me everything). I know that is no

guarantee (these disorders often go undiagnosed), but Jan has seen

several therapists long term, so you would think it might at least have

been mentioned. I think they mostly see her as a child of a

self-absorbed mom who parentified her at an early age. They also see her

as suffering from depression and abandonment issues. She is probably so

unaware of how much she is trying to use me to get her own needs met.

Her thapists have been working hard with her to get her to take care of

herself, but they don't see how this plays out in her real life. To me,

it feels like she's taking the " take care of me first " thing too far,

especially with her girls, so that everyone around her then becomes a

player in her " take care of Jan's needs first " reality.

So the task I see in front of me is to state what is true for me, draw

my boundaries carefully & diligently (and keep them conscious), and let

her choose her responses. We have already laid tremendous groundwork for

this, just by being in contact and sharing honestly for so many years. I

can explain my own insight into how I became such a caretaker (not news

to her, although I never actually expressed it in relation to her), and

we can also talk about her neediness (we've talked about it many times).

She will " get it, " I think... that we were a perfect fit, due to our

histories. She will also get it, at least theoretically, that I am

changing and learning to draw new boundaries (we've discussed this many

times as well -- she has read many self help books). I don't know if she

will get how this is going to impact her directly, as far as our

relationship is concerned, but I have already made changes that she is

feeling. I don't call her very often. I've stated more than once that I

don't think we should be each others' therapists. I've told her about my

own awareness of BPD and how this impacted me, etc... She's already

uncomfortable with some of the changes in me.

However, I am considering that you may be right, Cyndie. She may have

BPD or NPD herself. I think that, if I am honest with her (honesty with

compassion), and I state clearly what I am working on and why, and she

continues to ignore my efforts for new boundaries, then I will have more

evidence to support that she may not be capable or willing to take

responsibilty for her part. At that point, I would be more comforable

ending the relationship, because I would feel that I had done everything

I could to give it a healthy chance. And I am at a point in my life

where I am no longer willing to sacrifice my own welfare for others,

even if there are occasional good times.

Cyndie, I think my plan is taking shape as a natural result of our

conversation on this list. The more you write back, the more I think

things through and achieve greater clarity on the critical issues.

People and relationships are so complex. And you're right. One does not

need to always share the details of new boundaries with others (it's

obvious this is not possible with my mom, I simply have to impement

them). But I have a long history with this friend, and I think she may

be capable of participating in the recreation of a healthier friendship.

So I want to give her that opportunity and take a chance that this

friendship can, indeed, be saved and grow into something more sustaining

for us both. Previously I have simply walked away when old friendships

became too burdensome and/or abusive. I would like to try something new,

and I think Jan is a good place to try. If there is a foundation of true

friendship buried under our old dysfunctional patterns, it just may

blossom into something profoundly beautiful (best case scenario, I

know). If it turns ugly, I will be disappointed and probably grieve the

loss of something I thought I had, but I will be stronger and more

satified with myself for having made the attempt.

Thanks again for your input. I know how much time it takes to read and

respond thoughtfully, so your efforts are greatly appreciated. I did try

to call her, but she wasn't home. She also returned my call, but missed

me. So I am going to again try to call her this weekend. I intend to be

fairly gradual with sharing my insights and intentions to change things,

so this could take awhile. What is great is that I have all these posts

I can print out and review to keep me conscious and on track! This is

better than any journal, where no one answers back!

Best,

Kathy

[Guest guest]

Just some comments on Anon's response to me earlier:

> Kathy(me): So here's what I'm thinking. I could call and wish her a

> happy new year and ask how she likes her new house, how the girls are,

> etc. and keep it light. If she tries to go into some heavy stuff, I

> could just be honest and say something general, like, " I don't know,

> but I have all the faith that you will figure it out. "

>

> Anon: This is an excellent technique that I have found very useful. I

> learned it from a book called The Dance of Anger... It was in a

> chapter on triangulation -- where someone tries to drag you into the

> middle of something. The book suggested that the best way to respond

> is to say that

> you believe the two parties involved are capable of working it out,

> and leave it at that. I tried it on my mom the next day (what

> fortuitous timing) and it worked great!

That's so cool, Anon. I read that book about 10 years ago, and I

remember thinking it was wonderful too. She also wrote the The Dance of

Deception and The Dance of Intimacy. Not sure if I've read them yet (you

know, that growing stack of " books to read " ... ). One book I started

yesterday (while waiting for daughter's surgery to end) is _The

Emotional Incest Syndrome: What to Do When a Parent's Love Rules Your

Life,_ by Dr. Love. Good golly miss molly, this book is SO

about me and both my parents. One thing that really jumped out at me is

where she writes, " Emotional incest takes on a decidedly different

character when the the child is allied with a Critical/Abusive Parent.

Then the child is used not just for emotional support but for the

release of anger and tension. The child may be treated kindly one minute

and abused or shamed the next. Whatever emotion the parent happens to be

feeling may be targeted at the child " (p. 9). That explains why I felt

like " golden child " one minutes (not much currently) or " trash can

child " at others times (more common now). The gist of the first part of

the book is that the adult is using the child to satisfy needs that

should be satisifed by another adult (spouse, friend, therapist).

She talks a lot about the " Chosen Child, " which was definitely my role

with mom for years and years. Another thing that rings true for me from

this book is a " diffuse sense of identity. " As in, " A parent who is too

closely allied with a child invariably interferes with the development

of the child's sense of identity. Typically, the parent programs the

child to have similar tastes and values. In dozens of ways--sometimes

with words, sometimes with smiles and winks--the parent says to the

child: " You and I are buddies, " " We like the same things, " or " We're

different from the rest of the family. " This would probably fall under

Edith's " mom living in my head rent free " as well. " The person is

looking for any ally, a champion, a soul mate. In most cases, the child

will comply, because pleasing the parent--and thereby ensuring the

parent's love--is more important thatn develoing a sense of self.

Survival comes first; self-expression is secondary " (p. 46).

She goes on later to explain that this kind of exclusive relationship

sets the " Chosen Child " up for resentment and rejection by the other

parent and by siblings. This may explain why my older sister seemed to

resent me so much. I could never understand her coldness and distancing,

which was so hurtful. It would also explain, however, why she loves to

align herself with mom when mom is disagreeing with me... she gets to

vent some of her resentment?

Love gives a " signs of enmeshment " inventory early in the book (pp.

25-27). If you have 10 or more checks on the list, you supposedly have

enmeshment issues. I have 20. No surprise, just more validation that I

am seeing things clearly.

> Best of luck with the situation, and please keep us updated on your

> choices and how things go. It helps so much to hear how other people

> handle things, and what the outcome is. And I have to admit I agree

> with Cyndie -- your friend sounds a lot like a BP, or perhaps a

> flea-infested KO. Of course you know her better than us, but maybe

> it's something to think about.

I will do that. And thanks for the feedback & support! Stay tuned for

" the further adventures of the flea-infested friendship. " )

Kathy

[Guest guest]

--- jordhka@... wrote:

> Cyndie, I think my plan is taking shape as a natural

> result of our

> conversation on this list. The more you write back,

> the more I think

> things through and achieve greater clarity on the

> critical issues.

Hi Kathy,

That's what I like so much about this list. It's like

a journal with feedback.

I'd like to share one last thing with you if you

wouldn't mind...

Last spring I went to my first Divorcecare support

group. I met a woman there and we clicked immediately.

We both had many similar issues growing up. She'd done

work, I'd done work... The relationship appeared

mutual. It was healthy & we had fun aside from talking

about issues.

A few months into the relationship she'd met someone.

She changed overnight. Suddenly she was happy and as a

result of this happiness she started speaking a

different language to me. Whereas before we'd bounce

things off of one another, she'd start saying - stick

with it, *you'll* get there... she started speaking in

past tense about her issues. I statements became you

statements. (Maybe she began to feel like my

therapist? Who knows. But that's not what it started

out to be... then again, who knows? I only knew her

for a short time...)

This change in her upset me. I began to feel

invalidated in the relationship. I'd speak up about

how she was now talking down to me and she'd say I was

making her walk on eggshells... Ouch! This really hurt

as at that point I'd just begun to know about BPD. You

can imagine how this comment left me full of

self-doubt and wondering if it was me who was all

wrong.

I ended the relationship which was a rather rigid

boundary to set, but at the time I didn't know what

other course to take - didn't know about any other

tools to use or what they were.

It's taken some months, but I've grown some since

then. I can see her point about growing into

happiness. I can still see my point too, that is that

one does not find happiness outside of oneself. She

grew by finding a love interest, I'm growing by

learning how to have a love affair with mySelf

first... (which, from what I'd read and what was

taught in the Divorcecare group was the way to go.) I

think the latter is more challenging and the healthier

way to go... Which I was trying to *make her* get. She

would hear none of it.

I'm the one who couldn't let that go and accept her

for who she was (which in my opinion, she was going

about the healing path all wrong!!!) ... I also

couldn't turn off my issues and suddenly be a

different person for her. I needed a friend of whom we

could bounce things off of - mutually, not one up and

the other down. I didn't have that anymore... I wasn't

able to accept that on my terms of what I wanted in a

relationship - not then and not with what the terms

were then.

I miss her friendship. If I'd had the skills to

maintain a relationship with her with setting

boundaries that were a little less rigid I might still

have one with her (I might not...) But now I'll never

know. I also think that the time apart has given me an

opportunity to see things that I didn't see back then,

in myself at least.

The point I'm trying to make is maybe we don't really

want to burn bridges, especially ones that are 30+

years old and there is potential for growth. Your

freind appears willing, even though she may not be

able to access that key yet - it doesn't mean she may

never be able to access it. Perhaps time and distance

will help her to find it. Perhaps time and distance

will be better able to tell you what you need to

know... Perhaps it might be time and distance you need

to ask for? Another words, tell her what you're

looking for in a relationship, give her time to think

about it - set a boundary that requires time and

distance and see where she/it picks up in a few

months...

Dunno! Just sharing my story and hope it makes sense

and helps.

Best,

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Cyndie, thank you for sharing this story about your friend from the

divorce group. You have a great capacity for self insight and honesty,

and the ability to reflect on experiences and learn from them.

Much of what you said is how I am feeling about my friendship with Jan.

I think Jan and I are in different places on our roads to recovery. Yet,

we have shared so many special things. Still, I DO know that I am

playing an old role with her that no longer fits me, and she is

desperately trying to keep me in that role. Not an unusual thing in

relationships, and it will take work for us to process this. Since we

both know the language of codependency and healing, I am hoping that she

and I will be able to discuss our parts in the relationships we create,

as well as brainstorm new ways to interact. I liked your suggestion in

a previous post that maybe I start out talking about relationships in

general. Maybe discuss some of the dynamics of my own relationships that

I am working on, and see if she takes an interest in any of that. We

could eventually get around to our relationship.

She does seem terribly needy right now, and she seems very stuck to me.

However she did just get married in June, so some things may have

changed. I think it's quite okay for her to be wherever she is at in her

own growth process, as long as she doesn't continue to expect me to take

any responsibility for it. So this is where my part comes in. I can

listen (to a point) and offer understanding, validation, and support.

But I don't want to spend an hour on the phone trying to figure out her

solutions. I hate having to conjecture over and over about " why did he

treat me that way, " " why does she always do this to me, " " I didn't get

what I needed growing up, " etc. That's a fine place to begin, but she's

stuck there. I have enough of my own solutions to figure out. If we

bounce things off of one another, that would be fine with me. But she

wants to put me into some kind of " wise one " role that I do not want.

The last few years in this friendship have felt very unbalanced to me.

One thing you said in a previous post was something about how it sounds

like she really doesn't have much compassion or insight for me, and this

is VERY true. Yes, she does ask how I am, but if I tell her, she doesn't

have much to say, and then the conversation turns to her. As I

mentioned, she knows of the crises we've had in my family, but she

doesn't call even occasionally to offer support or find out how things

are going. In fact, she may not even ask at all about my daughter, and

that has been a HUGE ordeal for me. I would be surprised if she even

remembers the many things that I've been juggling lately. This is why

I'm struggling. She's being very self absorbed and way too needy with

someone (me) who has way too much on her plate right now.

I'm hoping a gentle, but honest, conversation might raise awareness for

both of us and possibly begin to change some of the dynamics. I never

call her when I am in a crisis (she doesn't even know that my daughter

was in the psych unit last summer). She is just not someone I feel I can

turn to for support, because of all her own neediness & self absorption.

Yet she doesn't hesitate to call me & talk for an hour about a fight she

had with her boyfriend (now husband). Can she or will she be willing to

change some of that? I'm not sure. But I do want to give us every

opportunity to salvage what is valid and grow through the rest. Your

words that " Maybe we don't really want to burn bridges " is exactly where

I'm at with Jan.

Any possibility of reconnecting with the friend from the divorce group?

Best,

Kathy

[Guest guest]

--- jordhka@... wrote:

> Cyndie, thank you for sharing this story about your

> friend from the

> divorce group. You have a great capacity for self

> insight and honesty,

> and the ability to reflect on experiences and learn

> from them.

Thank you. I've always been able to do introspective

work. Sometimes it's hard to see everything as we can

be caught up in any given drama of the moment.

Sometimes it's hard to see yourSelf objectively, but

in hindsight, I can see things more clearly. That's

where I do most of my learning - looking back.

<snip>I liked

> your suggestion in

> a previous post that maybe I start out talking about

> relationships in

> general. Maybe discuss some of the dynamics of my

> own relationships that

> I am working on, and see if she takes an interest in

> any of that. We

> could eventually get around to our relationship.

Yup, that's what I was eluding too... you're

perceptive!

<snip>I hate having to conjecture over and over

> about " why did he

> treat me that way, " " why does she always do this to

> me, " " I didn't get

> what I needed growing up, " etc. That's a fine place

> to begin, but she's

> stuck there.

Yup, the perpetual victim - why do people do these

things to me? Because I allow it is the answer...

finding *how* we allow it and changing it is the hard

part solving the problem. That requires looking at

yourSelf, which many people find hard to do... I

think!

I have enough of my own solutions to

> figure out. If we

> bounce things off of one another, that would be fine

> with me. But she

> wants to put me into some kind of " wise one " role

> that I do not want.

Exactly, cuz then she's not really finding it within

herself to change. She's looking for a mommy to tell

her how to do it without doing the work herSelf.

>

> The last few years in this friendship have felt very

> unbalanced to me.

> One thing you said in a previous post was something

> about how it sounds

> like she really doesn't have much compassion or

> insight for me, and this

> is VERY true. <snip> In fact, she may not even ask

at all

> about my daughter, and

> that has been a HUGE ordeal for me.

It's a shame two long time friends can't find that

reciprocation in support.

>

> I'm hoping a gentle, but honest, conversation might

> raise awareness for

> both of us and possibly begin to change some of the

> dynamics. I never

> call her when I am in a crisis (she doesn't even

> know that my daughter

> was in the psych unit last summer). She is just not

> someone I feel I can

> turn to for support, because of all her own

> neediness & self absorption.

There's that BP or BP flea infested thing...

I'm sure the experience w/your daughter was full of

many types of emotions. My first tendency might be to

beat mySelf up - " What did I do? She got this from me,

my genes, my personality, my issues... " I'd probably

have had a field day with self-flaggelation over this.

Too bad you couldn't have shared whatever your

feelings were with her, it might have opened up some

good dialogue between you... given you both insight.

> Yet she doesn't hesitate to call me & talk for an

> hour about a fight she

> had with her boyfriend (now husband). Can she or

> will she be willing to

> change some of that? I'm not sure.

She'll let you know in her actions!

But I do want to

> give us every

> opportunity to salvage what is valid and grow

> through the rest. Your

> words that " Maybe we don't really want to burn

> bridges " is exactly where

> I'm at with Jan.

You can let her know that - and I'm sure you'll find

the way to do it... you've got your head and heart in

the right places.

>

> Any possibility of reconnecting with the friend from

> the divorce group?

I've actually considered it on and off for the past

few months. But I'm not sure that she'd have given as

much as thought and consideration into what I said to

her as she'd said to me... if she's still w/this new

bf, then I doubt it.

She did a lot of *you* stuff in our last interaction.

A lot of the you stuff had a lot of truth to it. No

doubt about it. She said that I had a hard time seeing

mySelf objectively. Said I was level headed and

grounded but that I didn't apply what I knew to what I

actually did. Soooo true! It left a lot for me to

think about.

But it was the way it was said - as if she were all

grown already and I was beneath her that hurt. In my

opinion, her sudden growth was not the result of

personal development but due to do a new love

relationship. She found worth and happiness outside of

herself and through someone else. That's not real

growth. I suggested that she think about this and see

if it was the reason she was *you* statementing me to

death...

Here's an example of her bf... the part that I saw

that she didn't realize she was letting me see... and

that she didn't see for herself... (She'd stated she'd

seen no red flags in him in a previous conversation,

said they were *perfectly* suited... great!)

On a day trip we had taken together, we stopped in a

little shop. It had a section of cards - insightful

cards... Different types of cards... One had a picture

of man in a suit sitting on a bench with a brick wall

where his face should have been. It had some

inscription inside, something to the effect of not

being able to open up and share... she laughed when

she saw it and bought it for her new bf.

To me? This card was a red flag. To me, you don't have

a healthy relationship w/someone who's heart and mind

is as closed as a brick wall... she, however saw no

red flags in him... thought they were perfectly suited

for one another. I shared w/her how my ex was as

closed as a brick wall, emotionally unavailable, I

kept it as an I statement... Didn't ask her to think

about it, didn't suggest it was about her... just

thought it might open her eyes a little bit or at the

least open a dialogue between us... She didn't get

it...? didn't want to hear it? If she did, she wasn't

sharing it...

She was better than me and I knew nothing - anymore.

That's kind of strange considering she revered my

level-headedness and groundedness, don't ya think?

Our last interaction really hurt. It's so easy for me

to sit in a place and beat mySelf up. I didn't need

someone else to do that for me by *youing* me to the

very center of my universe! Our last interaction

filled me with self-doubt & anxiety & I don't think I

want to go through that again. My friendships from

here on out are going to be mutually honest - give and

take.

If she can be brutally honest with me and I respect

and trust what she says and reflect on it, then I want

a friend who can do the same thing. I don't think my

asking her to look inward and see if she were

*judging* me b/c of her new found bf relationship was

too much to ask... she wouldn't do that for me...

So, no, in the end I don't think I will contact her. I

left it up to her to consider why she said what she

said to me, to see if there were any truth to it. She

left our relationship in my lap, as me being the one

w/all the issues. I can't accept a one-way

relationship like that. If it's going to be intimate

and honest, it's going to be intimate and honest both

ways...

I hope I wrote this well enough so that it makes

sense... It's hard to capture a relationship in one

sitting...

Regards,

Cyndie

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