FEAR

[Guest guest]

Hi !

wrote:

> Now that I've had some distance and

> independence, I realize how mentally ill my nada

> really is and that I have no way of knowing what she

> is truley capable of.

Yes. That's the really scary part, not knowing what they'll come up

with next. We'll probably never understand the demons that drive them

to commit such horrors to their loved ones.

Best wishes,

Carol

[Guest guest]

I Understand!!!!!!!!!!!! I never knew I had the fear until she called and I

heard her voice after I divorced her. Actually, now it's worse - not a fear

that she'll do me any harm - but that I'll give in and see her again and she'll

spew worse than ever. I talked to my therapist about it and he understood, but

reminded me that physically she can't hurt me and I can control whether or not

to see her again. I think it's a healthy response to the buried feelings -

normal fear protects us from harm!!

Ilene

[Guest guest]

> okay, i have a question for yall'(texan coming out in me!)

Hey, whereabouts in Texas are you? I'm in the north central texas

area.

> no ones seems to understand me when i say that i SEVERELY fear my

> nada. all my life i have tried to " logic " this fear out.

Nev, logic probably isn't going to make this part go away. It'll help

you to see the roots, but logic and reasoning alone won't undo it.

We were all imprinted with this fear a long long time ago - when we

were tiny little KOs, until it became ingrained and is now a part of

our basic makeup. We were conditioned to it early, by pain and

uncertainly, for our nada's own purposes and to serve the needs of

her disease. Have you ever seen a puppy that has been beaten all its

life? All you have to do is raise your hand suddenly, and the puppy

flinches, rolls over and pees on itself. There is no real " thinking "

involved, just reflexes and survival conditioning.

Having said that, I will say that I believe we aren't quite in the

same situation as the puppy, because humans have the ability to

control our reactions to triggering to some extent and to change

those reactions, given time. But, it takes a *long* time sometimes,

and lots of loving help from a partner, therapist and friends.

Staying away from the " trigger " as much as you can will help, too.

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Before I get to nevele's question about fearing nada, I just

wanted to say that I've been busy lately, but I have been

reading. There have been so many posts that have touched me,

and I have cried more than once. I don't have the time to

respond to as many as I would like, but I am out here listening!

Nevele, you asked why you are afraid of her. I don't have a

sure answer, but I have some ideas. I am also familiar with

this feeling of fear. I am 30 years old, but I still feel that

fear -- twisting gut, stomach flip-flopping, shaking hands, etc.

(although it is diminishing). And, like you, I wasn't subjected

to severe physical abuse -- spankings and slappings that

probably were considered fairly normal at the time.

Now that I'm an adult, and she has no power over me (physically

or financially), why do I still fear her? Well, I think she

still has *emotional* power over me. I grew up by her side, and

she trained me well -- and that's where I learned the fear.

Infants and small children are COMPLETELY dependent on their

parents for survival -- they feed, clothe and shelter you.

Without them you will die.

Now, with a BP parent, things just don't feel right -- even to a

small child. I did not feel loved unconditionally, and I didn't

feel safe. I wasn't sure that she wouldn't abandon me -- and

she really did abandon me emotionally. However, it is

inconceivable to a small child that the person who is completely

responsible for their survival might be screwed up. If they're

screwed up, then they might not take care of me and I might die.

A small child cannot tolerate this fear, so they learn to look

at it another way -- I came to believe that if anything was

wrong it must be MY fault. It surely wasn't my mother's fault,

because that meant she wasn't a capable parent and I might die.

I learned to feel responsible for everything -- and if I didn't

get what I needed, it must be my fault. And if she got upset or

angry or was sad (i.e., didn't get what SHE needed) -- well that

must be my fault too.

I think this plays into the fear thing... we learned to take

inappropriate responsibility. So now, when I talk to her, I

still feel like I am responsible for doing and saying the right

things -- to make sure her needs are met, and to try to get my

needs met too (if at all possible, although it's rare to get

both her needs and my needs met simultaneously). There is a lot

of fear that goes along with this, because I am afraid that I

will fail to meet her needs and be punished (abandonment and

withdrawal of her love -- which to the small child meant

death... a small child that is still very much inside me). And

really, it's almost assured that I will fail, because it's

impossible to be responsible for someone else. We are each only

able to be responsible for OURSELVES.

Not understanding that, however, I used to deal with my fear by

always trying to make her happy. I never did anything for

myself. Once I learned about BPD and made big changes in my

life, I started trying to put myself first. And the fear

increased dramatically. It was always there, of course, but it

actually got worse, because I was CHOOSING to fail (i.e., not

meet her needs and instead put mine first) -- and I was SO

AFRAID of the repercussions. That small child inside me was

BEGGING me not to go against her -- we needed her to survive.

It is very hard to get that small child to realize I DON'T need

her to survive anymore.

So, intellectually I understand that I can't be responsible for

for meeting her needs. But emotionally, I have been so deeply

programmed that this is my job, it's difficult to let it go.

So, that's why just being " logical " doesn't work. I have to

address the EMOTIONAL aspect of this fear. And this isn't easy

-- and there doesn't seem to be a clear-cut way to go about it.

As I said, my fear has diminished some, but I'm not exactly sure

how that happened (and it is still present, although I believe

it will continue to decrease). Perhaps taking care of and

responsibility for myself (i.e., putting myself first), over and

over, and seeing that I did NOT indeed die was helpful. It

helped my inner, wounded child learn the message that we don't

need nada's approval and happiness anymore. I suspect that as

this lesson is repeated and repeated, eventually my inner child

will stop being fearful of standing up to nada. Also, I employ

self-talk -- I'll actually talk out loud to myself, and reassure

myself that I'm not going to die, that everything will be okay,

that it's okay if nada gets mad, that I'm still a good person

even if she doesn't think so, that my husband loves me, that I

have wonderful friends, etc., etc. It sounds kind of goofy, but

hearing these things out loud helps lessen my anxiety and fear.

So, that's my theory. This is a very complex thing, and we each

have our own unique situation. But I think a crucial idea is

the fact that small children MUST believe that their parents are

" good parents " . And this leads us to take responsibility for

the dysfunction in our families. You see this pattern over and

over, and not just in KOs -- I believe it is present in all

dysfunctional families. Each of us responds uniquely to that

feeling of responsibility, though. It seems pretty common for

KOs to respond by feeling fear, and also perfectionism.

I hope this helps. Smiles and hugs...

Anon

--- nevele wrote:

> okay, i have a question for yall'(texan coming out in me!)

>

> about the fear.

>

> no ones seems to understand me when i say that i SEVERELY fear

> my

> nada. all my life i have tried to " logic " this fear out. but

> i

> can't. my husband and best friend just don't " get it " - and

> neither

> do i. why am i so damn frightened of this woman? my husband

> asked

> me question once, " what the WORST she could do to you? "

>

> and i couldn't answer. i would love to be able to

> say... " well, she

> wouldn't hurt me... " but i can't say that. so, on some deep

> level i

> think the fear IS not only emotional, but physical as well...

> even

> though i never suffered severe physical abuse- maybe a few

> smacks

> here and there.

>

> but, it's as if over the years i have learned to never say

> that nada

> would " never do " this or that. as soon as i say that, she

> will prove

> me wrong. so maybe that's where the fear comes in. linked

> with

> unpredictability.

>

> ???

> nevele

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

you said it all...and it does help- tremendously.

THANK YOU.

nev

> > okay, i have a question for yall'(texan coming out in me!)

> >

> > about the fear.

> >

> > no ones seems to understand me when i say that i SEVERELY fear

> > my

> > nada. all my life i have tried to " logic " this fear out. but

> > i

> > can't. my husband and best friend just don't " get it " - and

> > neither

> > do i. why am i so damn frightened of this woman? my husband

> > asked

> > me question once, " what the WORST she could do to you? "

> >

> > and i couldn't answer. i would love to be able to

> > say... " well, she

> > wouldn't hurt me... " but i can't say that. so, on some deep

> > level i

> > think the fear IS not only emotional, but physical as well...

> > even

> > though i never suffered severe physical abuse- maybe a few

> > smacks

> > here and there.

> >

> > but, it's as if over the years i have learned to never say

> > that nada

> > would " never do " this or that. as soon as i say that, she

> > will prove

> > me wrong. so maybe that's where the fear comes in. linked

> > with

> > unpredictability.

> >

> > ???

> > nevele

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

In my case, it's definitely the unpredictability. It

carries over into lots of areas of my life. Like, it's

easier for me to deal with my alchoholistic grandparents

and uncles because I know after 6PM they are going to be

sloshed. I never know what nada's reaction will be.

I am afraid of heights, and starting anything new is

usually very stressful for me. I have that dream that I'm

falling - all the time. It's not having anything to back me

up that scares me. I feel like I'm not strong enough to

hold up to Nada because I have no backing - because she was

supposed to be my backing, except she isn't.

Bye

Hope

--- nevele wrote:

<< okay, i have a question for yall'(texan coming out in

me!) about the fear........ so maybe that's where the fear

comes in. linked with unpredictability. ??? nevele>>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Congratulations! That's a very big hook you just removed!!!!

Toss me a few of those hooks, would ya?

I know how you feel, because I first signed up with an alias at

hotmail. It wasn't long before I signed up with my real name and

personal email account.

Smiles!

Carol

" srch4inrpeace " wrote:

> I realized that my fear of losing my mother's love (which

> I never really had anyway) was enabling her to control me.

> I plan on stocking up on " hook removers " and putting them

> right next to my flea powder. Let me know if anyone needs

> one!

>

> Trish (who isn't afraid to use her real name for the first

> time!)

[Guest guest]

I like this a great deal, however.....how does

one rid oneself of a " grandchild " hook? It's the

reason we have put up with our daughter's

bpd/bipolar behavior for a decade.....she won't

hear about seeking help, and she continually

punishes us for crossing her by witholding her

precious children.

--- srch4inrpeace wrote:

> I have been trying to conquer the fear that I

> have of my nada. I

> don't even know what I fear about her, I just

> get these deep feelings

> of fear and dread whenever I think of her, hear

> her voice, or even

> see her handwriting. I have tried to

> understand where this fear

> comes from and I think I may have found the

> answer.

>

> I am reading a book for my graduate class

> called The Power of One by

> Shriff Abdullah. It is really an interesting

> book about authenticity

> and leading an authentic life. I think he

> wrote about it before

> Oprah or Dr. Phil! But anyway, this passage

> really struck a chord

> with me and I thought I would share:

>

> " The Authentic Leader has Released Fear

>

> Fearlessness does not mean that you do not

> experience fear; it

> just means that you don't let it stop you from

> doing what you have to

> do. A fearless person recognizes and moves

> through her fear. She

> sees it, acknowledges it, then continues to

> walk past it. She then

> turns around and acknowledges that the fear was

> illusory.

> A person who does not experience any fear

> is reckless,

> dangerous, and probably in denial (or a saint,

> which there are few).

> The authentic leader still experiences the

> twinge of fear when

> walking the path of authentic power; she is

> just not stopped by it.

> The authentic leader is fearless because

> she is dealing with

> her " stuff. " She has clarified her values, her

> principles. She

> believes in what she struggles for. She places

> her principles as a

> priority in her life. She lives her

> principles.

> There aren't any " hooks " for anyone to

> jerk the authentic leader

> around. The authentic leader is running on an

> internal gyroscope;

> she cannot be provoked or threatened, or

> co-opted. The authentic

> leader is internally rich; there is no fear of

> loss.

> Fear strikes at what you most value. Do

> you fear losing your

> life? You can be controlled by a threat to

> your life. Do you fear

> loss of material possessions? You can be

> controlled by a threat to

> those posessions. How about your fear of

> losing your social status,

> being seen as wrong, or bad or foolish? You

> have another " hook " by

> which you can be controlled.

> The hook remover is your ability to say

> " so what? " As Gahndi

> said, you wish to take my life? Then take it.

> (Hook removed) As

> King said, you wish to ruin my family and

> social standing? So what?

> (Hook removed)

> When you cannot be controlled by others,

> you are experiencing

> ultimate power....As long as you think you can

> lose something, you

> can be controlled. "

>

> I apologize for the length, but I just felt

> that every word was

> powerful. I realized that my fear of losing my

> mother's love (which

> I never really had anyway) was enabling her to

> control me.

>

> I plan on stocking up on " hook removers " and

> putting them right next

> to my flea powder. Let me know if anyone needs

> one!

>

> Trish(who isn't afraid to use her real name for

> the first time!)

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That was a great piece Trish, thanks for sharing...:0)

--- srch4inrpeace wrote:

> I have been trying to conquer the fear that I have

> of my nada. I

> don't even know what I fear about her, I just get

> these deep feelings

> of fear and dread whenever I think of her, hear her

> voice, or even

> see her handwriting. I have tried to understand

> where this fear

> comes from and I think I may have found the answer.

>

> I am reading a book for my graduate class called The

> Power of One by

> Shriff Abdullah. It is really an interesting book

> about authenticity

> and leading an authentic life. I think he wrote

> about it before

> Oprah or Dr. Phil! But anyway, this passage really

> struck a chord

> with me and I thought I would share:

>

> " The Authentic Leader has Released Fear

>

> Fearlessness does not mean that you do not

> experience fear; it

> just means that you don't let it stop you from doing

> what you have to

> do. A fearless person recognizes and moves through

> her fear. She

> sees it, acknowledges it, then continues to walk

> past it. She then

> turns around and acknowledges that the fear was

> illusory.

> A person who does not experience any fear is

> reckless,

> dangerous, and probably in denial (or a saint, which

> there are few).

> The authentic leader still experiences the twinge of

> fear when

> walking the path of authentic power; she is just not

> stopped by it.

> The authentic leader is fearless because she is

> dealing with

> her " stuff. " She has clarified her values, her

> principles. She

> believes in what she struggles for. She places her

> principles as a

> priority in her life. She lives her principles.

> There aren't any " hooks " for anyone to jerk the

> authentic leader

> around. The authentic leader is running on an

> internal gyroscope;

> she cannot be provoked or threatened, or co-opted.

> The authentic

> leader is internally rich; there is no fear of loss.

> Fear strikes at what you most value. Do you

> fear losing your

> life? You can be controlled by a threat to your

> life. Do you fear

> loss of material possessions? You can be controlled

> by a threat to

> those posessions. How about your fear of losing

> your social status,

> being seen as wrong, or bad or foolish? You have

> another " hook " by

> which you can be controlled.

> The hook remover is your ability to say " so

> what? " As Gahndi

> said, you wish to take my life? Then take it. (Hook

> removed) As

> King said, you wish to ruin my family and social

> standing? So what?

> (Hook removed)

> When you cannot be controlled by others, you

> are experiencing

> ultimate power....As long as you think you can lose

> something, you

> can be controlled. "

>

> I apologize for the length, but I just felt that

> every word was

> powerful. I realized that my fear of losing my

> mother's love (which

> I never really had anyway) was enabling her to

> control me.

>

> I plan on stocking up on " hook removers " and putting

> them right next

> to my flea powder. Let me know if anyone needs one!

>

> Trish(who isn't afraid to use her real name for the

> first time!)

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Today’s Affirmation

I am learning to respect and honor my fear. Then I decide what action to

take.

FEAR

Thee are three distinct experiences of fear. One is when there is actual

danger and your intuition is a warning: “Don’t go there. Don’t do this.

This isn’t right.” Respect that feeling completely and act on it.

The second type is when there is something that is not actually

dangerous, but it is a challenge on the emotional level. Your inner child

is frightened of it. Pause long enough to comfort the freighted child,

see what is needed, and make sure that you are going to take care of

yourself. Then when your inner child feels ready, you can move on.

The third type is when you know you are ready to do something, but it is

definitely a challenge. The fear is a temporary reaction your body and

psyche feel to the excitement of moving into a new level of aliveness.

Recognize the fear as the flip side of excitement and ride through.

__________________________________

From “Awakening: A Daily Guide to Conscious Living,”

© by Shakti Gawain