Janis

[Guest guest]

HOLY SMOKES Janis!!! You really are in a mess! You mil sounds

like a very low-functioning BP. My mom is a high-functioning

BP, which means she appears normal to most people, is able to

hold down a job, etc. Even her abuse of me is very subtle.

Low-functioning BPs are capable of doing really outrageous

things (like crawling through your living room window). This

woman sounds like she is completely out of control.

You said it got worse after her husband died -- I'm not

surprised to hear this. Abandonment is a huge issue for BPs,

and her husband's death felt like abandonment to her. It's not

unusual for the BPD to be cranked up a notch after a death, or

when the kids are teenagers and separating and rebelling (also

seen as abandonment).

I am sorry to hear about the way your husband is handling this.

Your husband is a KO (kid of BP), and we are all KOs here, so I

can empathize with his situation. However, he sounds like he is

in a lot of denial. It is my belief that if you are to make any

progress with her, it is essential that you and he be on the

same page. If you present a divided front, she will use that

weakness to her advantage. Not to say that you shouldn't be

setting boundaries on your own -- your performance surrounding

the piano lesson was fabulous. I just think you'll get a lot

farther and be more successful in getting her to honor

boundaries if you are BOTH demanding that she honor them.

The bummer about this is you cannot *make* your husband do

anything. It sounds like he is at least somewhat open to

hearing what you have to say, though. I agree with --

documenting the insanity can really help. A lot of times I

would be writing a post to this list about something my nada (BP

mother) did, and it wasn't until I was writing it down that I

realized how out of control it was. I think seeing it in black

and white will help you (and perhaps your husband) realize how

crazy her behavior is. When you're living with it day in and

day out, it starts to feel normal, and you tend to not see it

for what it is (personally, everything you've written about her

has caused me to exclaim, " OH MY GOD! This woman is insane! " ).

It's also nice to keep a record of her behavior, because there

are probably times when she acts " normal " , and you start to

wonder if maybe it was all in your head, or you misperceived

things. Then you can go back to the stories you've written

down, and remind yourself that she is indeed crazy.

Oh, and another good reason to keep records is that some BPs can

launch really nasty distortion campaigns when they get pissed.

Although it's not all that common, I have heard of nadas calling

child social services and saying their grandkids are being

abused. One woman on the list was accused of stealing money.

When you start to put boundaries in place, it's possible that

she will react very badly (especially since she's so

low-functioning). If you ever end up in court (God forbid), it

would probably help discredit her if you had crazy messages on

tape and records of her crazy behavior. It's sad to think that

you might have to do this to protect yourself, but it's probably

better to be safe than sorry. Hopefully, you will never have to

go through this.

And read, read, read. There are so many wonderful books out

there that have helped me (I think I could start my own

self-help library, LOL). You're off to a good start with SWOE

and I Hate You... I haven't read Toxic In-laws, but the author

has written other good books. If your husband is amenable, get

him to read as much as he can. If he's willing to realistically

look at what is going on, reading this stuff could change his

life. I AM SO MUCH HAPPIER NOW!!!! He has a lot of work to do,

though, and he is looking at some difficult times -- whether he

decides to make changes in his relationship with her or not.

The more the two of you know, the better. Some of my favorite

books are (I'll leave out co-dependency books, because it sounds

like you have a good handle on that):

* Understanding the Borderline Mother (UTBM, by

Lawson) -- expensive, but worth it. Check http://www.half.com

for used copies

* Toxic Parents (by Forward)

* If You Had Controlling Parents (by Dan Neuharth)

* The Dance of Anger (by Harriet Lerner -- not about BPD, but I

found some good tips on dealing with BP-type behavior)

* There are several good books on boundaries

For the moment, I would set aside the thought that your mil can

be changed or helped. Don't send her any more letters that you

think might help her. She will only use them against you (as

she already has). Not to say that BPs can't be helped, but 9

times out of 10, it just doesn't work. I would concentrate your

energies on you, your husband and your kids right now. Protect

your marriage and your family from this woman. Some serious

boundaries need to be put in place, and here are some

suggestions to consider: take the key back (change the locks if

she won't relinquish it), don't let her do any laundry, don't

let her in your home unless you want her there, lock your

windows, get her out of your girls' routine (taking them to

lessons, school, etc.), shutting the phone off at 10 is good,

get caller ID and don't answer the phone when she calls unless

you want to talk to her, keep recording her phone messages.

Learn to say NO (this is a hard word for KOs -- expect that your

husband will struggle with this). Could you and your husband go

to Al-Anon in a different town? I can understand the whole

small town thing (and the cost of therapy), but I think it's

crucial that you guys get some help in dealing with this.

Her calling your daughter a bitch is absolutely inexcusable!!

What do your girls think of her? I ask because some people on

the list have nadas who act great with the grandkids, so the

grandkids get upset when boundaries are put in place, or contact

is severed. Other people's kids are hip to the whole situation,

and are thrilled when they are protected from the insanity. As

far as trying to get your husand to talk to her about the

name-calling, I agree that it is his job to protect his

daughter. It's also your job, though, so don't hesitate to go

to bat on this one again. You shouldn't have to be doing this

all alone, though.

<<

There was my lovely young 13 yr. old daughter standing on the

stairs looking at both of us. She looked at me and said, " Momma,

it will be easier to just go with her. "

>>

This is just a tragedy. Your daughter was willing to put

nada-gammy's (thanks, Ilene, for that term -- I just love it!)

needs above her own. This was the absolute worst thing that was

done to us KOs, because we never learned how to care for

ourselves. We grew up caring for our FOO (Family of Origin),

and ended up being big co-dependents that let the world walk all

over us. DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOUR DAUGHTER!!!! My dad

always puts my mom first, and I learned this from him. It's a

terrible lesson. We need to learn to put ourSelves first, and

this is learned by modeling healthy adults that take care of

themSelves. I think it's great that you stood up to the mil,

and took the girls yourself.

<<

I haven't even told my husband about this. He was so happy to

see me last night and we had such a nice evening, I didn't want

to ruin it by even mentioning his mother.

>>

I can understand your reasoning, but it seems kind of

co-dependent to me (you are taking responsibility for keeping

him happy). Yes, it would be upsetting to hear about what

happened, but your husband is responsible for how he chooses to

react to the news. He would be responsible if he chose to let

it upset him and ruin the evening. Not to say that he

" shouldn't " be upset (we try to avoid the words " should " and

" shouldn't " here). I'm just saying that it's not your job to

protect him from his mother. In fact, protecting him from her

may make him less willing to face up to what's going on. You

went through a terrible thing all by yourself -- you have the

right to tell him about it and get some support. Take care of

yourSelf, and trust him to care for himSelf.

<<

Today my mother-in-law sent me in the mail a cartoon that says,

" Love is Sharing Him with His Mother " and " Ten Ways to Change

STress to Positive Pressure. "

>>

Barf. Puh-leeze. This woman is really messed up. She has

firmly embedded herself in your marriage. I am so sorry that

you have to go through this. It's hard to realize sometimes,

but she is abusing you and your family, and YOU DON'T HAVE TO

PUT UP WITH IT. I think she has bamboozled your husband, and

perhaps you to some extent, into thinking you have to put up

with her behavior. You don't have to be obsessive about

house-cleaning just to keep her from criticizing you. You don't

have to do things to try to *prevent* her behavior and

criticism. You are not responsible for her behavior. You are

responsible for yourSelf, and protecting yourSelf by setting

boundaries. A possibility with the house-cleaning thing could

be, " Mil, I know we have different ideas on how to keep house,

but this is *my* house, I am an adult, and everyone that lives

here is happy with the way it is kept. I don't want to hear any

more criticism about my house-keeping. If you persist I will

hang up/walk out/ask you to leave. " This may not be an easy

thing to say, but I suggest it because a lot of us who are just

starting out on this journey don't even realize that they have

the *option* of saying things like that.

And I can't believe she's calling your parents!!! They might

want to turn the ringer off at night. If that doesn't work,

they might want to get a new phone number and keep it unlisted.

In fact, you might want to consider doing this too. Yeah, it

will piss her off, but lots of people on the list have had to do

this. She'll live, and you'll live, the world will still turn.

Don't let your fear keep you from doing what's best for you (and

of course, only you can figure out what's best for you... I'm

just making suggestions -- take what applies, and leave the

rest).

I know I'm ranting and rambling here, but I am mad!!! It makes

me so mad to see this kind of behavior! And I have lots of

suggestions, <grin>. Of course, it's always easy to tell

someone what to do -- it's a lot harder to have to do it! There

are no simple or easy solutions. Well, actually, the solutions

are simple -- do what's best for you -- but that can be an

incredibly difficult and painful thing to do. I still maintain

that it beats the other alternatives though. You have to make

your own choices, and so does your husband. I genuinely hope

the two of you can get to a point where you're on the same page

and working together.

Welcome to our little oasis, and I look forward to reading more

about you. I hope it helps to hear our stories and to know that

you're not alone out there. And I'm glad to hear that your

family (sister and parents) are supportive of you -- that can

really mean a lot. Lean on them as much as you feel

comfortable. Don't forget to take care of yourSelf! You don't

have to carry this burden alone.

Hugs,

Anon

--- jetstover@... wrote:

> Hi, Ilene,

> Thank you so much for your comforting and affirming words.

> Toxic In-Laws

> came in the mail this morning and I dropped everything to try

> to glean more

> knowlege in dealing with this situation. My husband has been

> out of town for

> the past 4 days on a hunting trip and then an out-of-town

> seminar, so he came

> home positive and refreshed and very sweet and loving. Getting

> away from his

> mother always does him good!

> To answer your question about therapy: yes, I had several

> sessions in

> Aug-Oct. with a lovely lady who helped me a great deal with

> assertiveness and

> self-nurturing. The problem was our insurance co. only paid

> $17.50 for a

> $712.00 claim for 8 office visits. Since I have quit my job to

> try to reclaim

> my family, I can't afford to go back to see her at this time.

> I'm going to

> try battling some more with the insurance co. (my husband's

> employer). I'm

> also selling antiques and collectibles on the internet and

> doing fairly well

> at that. As this business builds up, I'm hoping for more

> therapy. My sister

> -in-law suggested Al-anon for both me and my husband, but he

> won't go because

> he doesn't want anyone he knows to see him. His whole family

> has always been

> one for " Appearances " because both parents were/are alcoholics

> and they

> thought they kept that a secret from the world.

> I had a real confrontation with my mother-in-law on

> Monday. She usually

> picks up my daughters from school on Mon. and takes them to

> their piano

> lessons (which she pays for!) My 13 yr. old stayed home from

> school sick

> with fever and a bad sinus headache so I called her to tell

> her that I would

> just have to see how she felt by 5:15. and that I would take

> her to her

> lesson if she felt better. She said she'd take and pick up the

> other daughter

> and go over her music with her (she used to give piano

> lessons herself years

> ago.) But she also had to tell me that perhaps my daughter

> should have gone

> to school, " Sometimes when a person has a sinus headache, they

> just have to

> toughen it out. " There she was, as usual, criticizing my

> parenting capabi

> lities.I didn't say anything negative--just decided to let it

> go.

> Well, she showed up at 4:45 pm with my younger daughter

> and said she'd

> take the older one to piano. I was doing a serious cleaning of

> my older

> daugher's room, moving furniture to try to vacuum any and all

> dust thinking

> that may have aggravated her sinus infection and I had moved

> my daughter in

> the guest room.

> My daughter was rather draggy but said she'd go to her

> lesson and her

> temperature was just 99 at that point. I went downstairs to

> get something I

> needed. While I was downstairs, my mother-in-law went upstairs

> to my

> daughters room and I heard her exclaim, " What on earth

> happened to your bed! "

> (She was referring to the disarray, and I'm very sensitive

> about this because

> she has always been VERY critical of my housekeeping.) By the

> time I got back

> upstairs, my mother-in-law was on the front porch saying that

> she'd wait for

> my daughter.

> I went in my daughter's room and she was practically in

> tears saying that

> her grandmother called her a bitch and she didn't want to go

> with her. (This

> calling her a bitch has happened several times when my

> daughter has been

> alone with her grandmother, and I have tried to get my husband

> to talk to his

> mother to no avail about this. I have also told my daughter

> that a

> grandmother calling her granddaughter a bitch is

> unacceptable.) I just felt

> so angry!!! I walked out on the porch and told my

> mother-in-law that I would

> take my daughter to piano, and that I thought it was terrible

> for her to call

> her granddaughter a name. I was so angry I really let her have

> it! I asked

> her to leave. She refused. Then she went to the living room

> window that opens

> on the porch and she opened it and crawled into the house.She

> said she wasn't

> leaving without my daughter. I said, " Yes, you are. " She is

> not YOUR

> daughter. She is mine. "

> There was my lovely young 13 yr. old daughter standing on

> the stairs

> looking at both of us. She looked at me and said, " Momma, it

> will be easier

> to just go with her. "

> I said, " No, you are not. I'm taking you to your lesson. "

> Well, we all walked out of the house and the girls and I

> got in our car

> and I drove her to her lesson. My mother-in-law followed us

> all the way

> there. I waited until my daughter went inside and then I left.

> I picked her

> up 50 minutes later and my mother-in-law wasn't still parked

> there.

> I haven't even told my husband about this. He was so happy

> to see me last

> night and we had such a nice evening, I didn't want to ruin it

> by even

> mentioning his mother. Today my mother-in-law sent me in the

> mail a cartoon

> that says, " Love is Sharing Him with His Mother " and " Ten Ways

> to Change

> STress to Positive Pressure. "

> Back to my reading...

> Janis

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

<< AND DON'T TAKE MONEY FROM HER!!! She will use

this against you, to send you, your h and your kids on

a wild and crazy guilt trip. Don't fall for it! She's

not doing it for you or your girls! She's doing it for

herself to keep you obligated and in her life. It's

all about control - remember that. Everything she does

is about HER and control!!!

I know it's all about control, and I have been trying to get my husband to

understand that for nearly 17 yrs. She has been buying my daughters expensive

clothes all their lives. This has created so many disagreements between my

husband and myself. His mother and grandmother also buy him 2 or 3 suits a

year. We don't even have a clothing budget because he thinks his parents

should buy his clothes and he thinks my parents are cheap because they don't

buy my clothes and indulge us with material goods.

It's been very difficult to understand all this because I grew up so

differently. My parents have always given me unconditional love and I felt

accepted and nurtured but also encouraged to be independent. My parents have

always been there for me when I really needed them, but they have not

indulged me or gone overboard. There have five children and 10 grandchildren

and two great-grandchildren. My two daughters are my MIL's only

grandchiildren.

This will be very difficult for me and my husband because he does tend to

spend much of his time in denial (I guess this helped him cope in childhood.)

But I know I have to be strong and set the boundaries. I think he will come

around if he sees me strong, and if he can get some tools.

Toxic In-Laws arrived today and it really blew my mind! There is an 11

point checklist to see if you have toxic in-laws, and I said yes to all 11!

There are 5 different types of toxic in-laws: Critics, Engulfers,

Controllers, Masters of Chaos, and Rejectors. My mother-in-law is all of

these rolled into one!! I guess that's because of the BPD. I also got SWOE

and I Hate You, Don't Leave Me. Looks like I'll be doing lots of reading, but

I do love to read, and the information helps so much.

I'm so glad I found this list. I was worried that I wouldn't be able to

get that much out of it because I haven't seen any daughters-in-law post

anything yet, but it is very helpful to read what the KO's write because it

helps me to understand my husband better. Also he is the first-born with only

one brother who is 10 years younger and who lives 5 hrs. away. He feels

responsible for his mother since his father's death. There is so much going

on here.

I have suffered a great deal because he has called me an " emotional

cripple " when I have cried and gotten upset. But after some therapy sessions

and some reading, I realize I HAVE A RIGHT TO BE UPSET. I am the one who has

been violated here. I have not done anything wrong!! And I'm not going to

let anything he says make me feel like there is something wrong with me

again. I feel like his reaction to my being upset is because of the chaos he

grew up in, and he needs me to be strong. He doesn't realize that when I cry,

that doesn't mean that I have lost control.

I'll keep on learning...

Jan

>>

[Guest guest]

--- wjseetch wrote:

> I went in my daughter's room and she was

> practically in tears saying

> that

> her grandmother called her a bitch and she didn't

> want to go with her. (This

>

> calling her a bitch has happened several times when

> my daughter has been

> alone with her grandmother, and I have tried to get

> my husband to talk to

> his

> mother to no avail about this.

GRRRRRR!

Janis! Welcome!

Now that that is out of the way...

Don't you dare let that woman near your daughter again

until she apologizes and if she ever, ever says that

to her again, broom her big old witchy a$$ to the

curb!!! In fact, don't let her near her daughter

anymore. Period. (As far as I'm concerned!) I draw the

line at any nada going after the grandkids - NO WAY!

Janis, it doesn't sound like you've grown up w/a BP

parent, but I have... if you want to spare your

daughter some expensive therapy down the road,

(herself,) get that trash away from her. She is 13,

it's tough enough being 13 without your own

grandmother calling you a bitch for cryin out loud...

Grrrr... (Can ya tell I'm ticked???)

You're hubby may be used to this stuff cuz he grew up

w/it - but you're not. Protect those girls/kids for

all they're worth. You're kids will love and thank you

for it in the end. Just the fact that your daughter

capitulated tells me she's already experiencing some

severe boundary issues here (low self-esteem, shaming,

etc... this is not good!) She's learning that this

normal.

The more you learn, the more you can help her and

steer her in the right direction. If she keeps up

accepting this behavior as normal she could very well

wind up in an abusive marriage/relationship somewhere

down the road thinking it's normal... it's NOT!!!

You know this too!!! Good for you for kicking that

witch out of your house. But hence! I can't believe

she's bold and nutty enough to climb through a window

to get back in??? Who on earth does she think she

is??? Argggggh!

Others here have offered you Excellent advice. Keep

your chin up and don't back down. There are childrens

lives at stake here! Heed Anons advice on watching for

*normal* spells and the self-doubting that comes with

that. It's called *hoovering!* She'll suck you back in

with her big ole hoover and make you think *you're*

the one who's crazy! Then heed 's advice and

document, document, document!!! With a power hungry

witch like this, you don't know what she's capable of.

Be wary and be careful - get educated on this stuff

and be smart!!!

You can do it!

Cyndie

PS - AND DON'T TAKE MONEY FROM HER!!! She will use

this against you, to send you, your h and your kids on

a wild and crazy guilt trip. Don't fall for it! She's

not doing it for you or your girls! She's doing it for

herself to keep you obligated and in her life. It's

all about control - remember that. Everything she does

is about HER and control!!!

" Love is Sharing Him with His Mother "

To this I say - GAK!!!

and

> " Ten Ways to Change

> STress to Positive Pressure. "

> Back to my reading...

And to this I say - " Love is Learning to Let GO and

Let LIVE! " I mean really, stress should not even be an

equation with a Grandmother - gimme a break. She is

Queen of Chaos herself... What she did was dead a$$

wrong.

Sorry, got PMS & I'm little wired...

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> I have suffered a great deal because he has

> called me an " emotional

> cripple " when I have cried and gotten upset

Hi Janis,

Welcome to the group! I read all your posts, and I

can relate to your stories as my nada is also a very

low functioning BPD. The story of crawling in through

the window made me laugh, I can picture mine doing it

no problem.

I wanted to comment on the quote above, and just say

that I would venture to guess that he is reguritating

the same thing that was told to him when he got

emotional during his nadas rage/pity party/drunken

stupor/whatever it is she did. Many of the KOs have

mentioned an inability to cry or show emotion as a

result of the chaos (I still can't cry in front of

anyone), and until recently really did view as a

weakness. This in NO way implies that he is right, or

that you are out of control. Just maybe a view of

where it is coming from.

Bravo on standing up for your daughter when she was

called that name (and not even the first time!!!!!)If

I were you and did only one thing, it would be to not

allow MIL alone with your children EVER. She is so

toxic and volitale, it leaves such an impression on

you when you are young. I can imagine how difficult

it will be to accomplish this, but the sad fact is she

is not trustworthy. And as you set boundaries you

will become the enemy. I would hate to see them,

especially the older, set up to not want to repeat the

things MIL is saying about you behind your back. You

wouldn't allow anyone not related to you to talk to

them that way, or behave that way in your home.... it

is a great example to show them that being treated

like that is unacceptable.

Hang in there!

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Wow, you really have had a rough time! I'm glad to meet you. I'm new

also. I've been enjoying myself here. Hope you feel better, these

guys really have a lot of insite.

Hey, she may be a lonely gal but don't let her take you and the kids

with her. You need your own life, make sure you get to have one

without here once and a while. Believe me, you will feel so much

better. Oh, if you feel the need to take the key, remember, Nada's

always make copies, better to change the locks, even if it does seem

a bit cruel at first.

[Guest guest]

--- jetstover@... wrote:

> I'm so glad I found this list. I was worried

> that I wouldn't be able to

> get that much out of it because I haven't seen any

> daughters-in-law post

> anything yet, but it is very helpful to read what

> the KO's write because it

> helps me to understand my husband better.

I have had toxic in-laws for most of my life. I

divorced my h last spring. My MIL was a good mix of

being the type to lay down in front of a moving train

to save your life to the other end of the spectrum

where she'd rip you in two with her sharp criticisms.

I was never good enough, smart enough, clean enough -

in the same breath, like I said, she'd lay down her

life for me... she was a hard one to figure out.

> I have suffered a great deal because he has

> called me an " emotional

> cripple " when I have cried and gotten upset.

My ex is the type to close up like a frigid clam. His

father was an abusive alcoholic who used to beat the

crap out of him - physically and emotionally. My exh

was constantly humiliated as a child. To protect

himself he built high walls around his heart and mind.

To him, showing emotion of any type is a sign of

weakness. He never understood my need to talk about

things. He believes in accepting his mother as she is.

He always said " I know what she's like, but what do

you want me to do about it? She's my mother... " Well,

for one - you could validate me? Never happened...

There was never any discussion, just a stone wall I

encountered. I was the one who was weak for letting

her get to me and not *dealing* with it. He had one up

over me... all the time.

But

> after some therapy sessions

> and some reading, I realize I HAVE A RIGHT TO BE

> UPSET. I am the one who has

> been violated here. I have not done anything wrong!!

Absolutely. The mistake you were/are making is looking

for validation from people who don't acknowledge the

truth for what it is. Either they don't want to or

can't.

> And I'm not going to

> let anything he says make me feel like there is

> something wrong with me

> again.

Good, hold onto to that thought fiercely. It's not

you. My ex expounded on *my* issues. He never owned

his own. There was nothing wrong with me for feeling

my feelings either. Only in his eyes was there

something wrong with that... He didn't want to deal

with it, he'd had enough chaos in his life & learned

to deal with it by not dealing with it. His thing

doesn't make mine wrong.

I feel like his reaction to my being upset is

> because of the chaos he

> grew up in, and he needs me to be strong.

Well Jan - I think you need you to be strong - but for

yourSelf. When we change, people around us adapt to

our changes - but it doesn't mean their changes are

always the changes we wanted to see... Sometimes we

change and there are people in our lives who fight it

too.

He doesn't

> realize that when I cry,

> that doesn't mean that I have lost control.

Absolutely not. Your dealing with crazy people here

and your H is a KO. He's got issues and he sounds a

little bit like my ex who keeps himself protected by

being in *control* of his emotions.

> I'll keep on learning...

>

Amen to that! You might want to pick up a good book

for your h, if he's willing to enlighten himself.

Emotional Blackmail, When People Use Fear, Guilt and

Obligation to Manipulate you, by Dr. Forward.

It's the same author who wrote Toxic In-laws.

Cyndie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Way to go! You are really good at thinking ahead and sending the email stuff to

the doc before your appt!!

I sincerely hope she has words of wisdom and encouragement. I'm surprised that

your nada-n-law hasn't said nasty things about your daughter and/or her doctor.

Good luck!

Ilene

[Guest guest]

Hi Janis,

My name is Hania. I have a nada (bp mother) and was married for 20 years to a

man with BP tendencies.

I can so relate to your posts about your MIL. Except for calling your daughter

names and the drinking, we could have had the same MIL.

My ex-mil died earlier this year. I was close to her while I was married to her

son. When I finally had the nerve to leave due to his behavior, ex-mil refused

to speak to me. I have since realized (with the help of this great group), the

ex-mil was probably a nada, too. If she wasn't, she had many bp fleas.

I could tell many, many stories the way ex-mil controlled my life. She even

dictated my whole wedding. I am glad to be free of her. I am also working on

cutting ties with my nada and FOO.

Freedom is such a wonderful thing.

Hania