Re: giving your kids what you didn't get

January 1, 2002

Hope,

You are doing a great job sharing yourself and working

things through. I enjoyed your long post and wish I

had time to response to more of the issues you bring

up, but there's one thing I want to respond to and

that is your comments about having children:

" Right now I don't think I am whole enough to be able

to have

kids. Even if I don't repeat ANY of my parents'

mistakes, there are

zillions of other mistakes for me to make. And here's

the real issue:

Nada had no intention of repeating her parents

mistakes. She really

did do a better job of parenting than they did. She

certainly did not

plan on all the abuse she administered. She broke the

cycle, yet the

cycle continued. I have made great progress but I'm

not out of the

circle yet, I'm not sure I can ever totally be out.

Nada married

young because she was so eager to have kids, so she

could give them

everything she didn't get. It meant she was parenting

for herself,

not for us. She was always conscious of how little

support she got -

so she tried to give it to us. I don't mean to offend

the mothers on

this list who have said how they are trying to give

their kids all

they didn't get. This is what happened to me:

everytime there was a

situation where she could do something she didn't get,

she'd be doing

it BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T GET IT and not because we needed

it. One

example is when she was visiting me at college and we

went to the

supermarket, she paid because 'her mother never paid

for anything for

her'. She also went into parenthood determined to be

better than her

parents, to break their cycle. All the parenting she

gave us, she was

actually trying to fill in her need for parenting.

Every time she'd

sit with us when we were sick, she'd really be focused

on how when

she was sick, she wasn't taken care of. So she was

really parenting

herself, not me. It shows!!!! "

-----------------

I can totally relate to what you're saying. Both of

my parents came from dysfunctional families. And they

were both determined to give their children what they

didn't get. They did in certain ways. But, like your

mother, my father did everything for himself, thinking

he was doing it for us. My mother has her

limitations, but she really has continued to grow and

work on herself her whole life. My father thinks he's

worked on himself, but he hasn't done the real work.

He is an " abused " child who became an abuser. Someone

once said to me that some abused children become

abusers and some do not. There is choice there.

Hope, I can just tell that you would be a good parent.

I used to be afraid that I wouldn't respect my

children's boundaries because of the way I was raised,

but you know what? I have 3 beautiful children, and I

am far from a perfect parent, but I totally respect

their boundaries. It isn't even an issue. I am so

sensitive to this issue, that I could never let it

happen. I think there's a big difference between

people who had rotten childhoods but are not

self-aware being determined to " give their children

what they didn't get " , and someone who is really

working on themselves, understands the dynamic and is

fiercely committed to treating their children with

respect. Don't forget, you are not your parents.

Your true nature will come out when you have children

- your natural loving self. Don't think you have to

be perfect before allowing yourself to have children.

You will continue to grow as you raise them. Someone

said the key to raising children is " create a safe

loving space for them to grow, and KEEP WORKING ON

YOURSELF " I think this is true, and from just the

little bit you have posted, I know you can do that.

Thanks for the suggestion about using affirmations in

present tense.

" I respect myself "

Joy

__________________________________________________

January 1, 2002

She was always conscious of how little support she got -

> so she tried to give it to us. I don't mean to offend the mothers

on

> this list who have said how they are trying to give their kids all

> they didn't get.

with me, I have 6 kids and I parent them the way I do out of love,

and then when realize I never had it, I feel sorry for the little

Kathleen but then keep doing what I do. Mothering well. Not

perfectly, but leaps and bounds over what I had.

ly I think it is a miracle that someone with my background

could be such a good mother. That is different from saying

" someone like me " because I've always known that I wanted to

be good and I've always felt that I was lucky to be me.

It is providential that l began my mothering life 3000 miles away

from my mother, and read a lot and listened to people who

seemed natural mothers.

Then there is the part of love taking over and in an instant all is

healed.Turning into a mother, was the most transforming event

in my life. It was physically exhausting, and I remember coming

up with the concept of " surrendering to Motherhood " .

I went in as a woman and came out as a mother and when I

found myself in my motherskin I felt very strong and joyful.The

thing I was totally unprepared for was the joy and the love. I

found it impossible to comprehend the happiness I had been

given in a 7.5 pound little person. It has been that way for all 6 of

my kids.

I got flea infested when I went back into nada's orbit and was

subject to her company on a daily basis. There is where I had a

whole new dose of her invalidation and minimization. It was only

this summer that a lifetime of bad sad memories came up like a

volcano.

I am sometimes baffled at how much I have done differently. I

listen for their sakes, not to make myself feel better about my

crappy past. It is a subtle difference, but clear to me. And I agree

with the " living backwards " concept in UTBM. Living a good life

after coming from a dreadful past is nurturing.

When my sister was dying we often spoke of how easy it was to

be good and loving to our kids, and how rotten it had been for us.

Rotten but not too late. By giving our kids happy childhoods, we

would win one battle. The other battle of healing the wounds

continues on.

At her funeral someone said that in the 8 years of my sister's

being a mom, she had given her boy's a lifetime of love. Without

any tools, but naturally following her gut and " living backwards "

she so filled them with her love. It shows.

January 2, 2002

Hi Hope,

I also enjoyed your lengthy post. It is evident that you have

spent a lot of time learning about yourSelf -- I am sure that

this will pay off enormously for you!

You wrote (re: being stuck at the 'filling up' stage):

<<

Once I get past it, I expect to be able to truly have adult

relationships. I'm glad to have identified this pattern in me,

but it also makes me mad to realize I'm stuck at such a

particularly infantile stage (1 year old! Really! That's what

I'm

always mad at mom about (being infantile)… and nothing irritates

me more than finding another way I resemble her).

>>

Yes, I also get very frustrated when I find parts of me that

resemble my mom. Of course, it's to be expected, because she

was my mom, after all. Whenever I'm feeling that way, I try to

keep in mind my differences too -- and I'm going to use your

words here... " Once I get past it, I expect to be able to truly

have adult relationships " and " I'm glad to have identified this

pattern in me. " I think this is where we really differ from

BPs. We *expect* and *demand* change from ourSelves, whereas

they are too terrified to even admit they might benefit from

change. We are able to look *inward* and identify things we

want to change -- something BPs can't do. My mother seems

incapable of self-examination. Yes, it is frustrating to have

to deal with these " issues " , but at least we are willing and

able to deal with them, instead of living our lives in denial

and pointing the finger of blame at everyone else.

<<

Right now I don't think I am whole enough to be able to have

kids. Even if I don't repeat ANY of my parents' mistakes, there

are zillions of other mistakes for me to make. And here's the

real issue: Nada had no intention of repeating her parents

mistakes. She really did do a better job of parenting than they

did. She certainly did not plan on all the abuse she

administered. She broke the cycle, yet the cycle continued.

>>

Yes, I think this is my situation too. My mom's mom was 100

times worse than my mom, so my mom *was* successful in filtering

out some of the abuse. I have to believe, while silently

suffering in her room as a child and teenager, she vowed to

herself (as I did) that she would NEVER treat her children like

she was being treated. Yet, she was still a nada (albeit, a

better one than her mom). How did that happen? I think it is

not enough to simply STATE and VOW that you will never repeat

the cycle. You summed it up nicely by saying " it is OVERCOMING

your upbringing that can make you a better parent. " The work we

are doing here -- identifying, understanding, working through,

healing, etc. -- all of that is the difference between us and

our parents. My mom looked at her mom and said " I don't want to

be like that. " I look at MYSELF and say " I need to change

that. " Big difference. And I think this ties into your idea

that she did things for herself and not for you. Instead of

making changes within HERSELF that would allow her to be a

better parent, she just did what she wished her mom would have

done for her.

<<

I have made great progress but I'm not out of the circle yet,

I'm not sure I can ever totally be out.

>>

Yes, I also think that I will never be totally out. This is my

life. I cannot erase my past... it will always be a part of me.

For example, I was in a 2 year romantic relationship

(terminated 8 years ago) that revolved around emotional and

sexual abuse. To this day, I flinch and jerk away if my husband

touches me (on the arm, face, whatever) while I'm sleeping. I

feel most vulnerable when I am asleep, and cannot use conscious

thought to overcome the automatic defense mechanisms I have

developed to protect myself (although I don't need this defense

mechanism anymore, the trauma was so great that my innate drive

to protect myself refuses to allow me to be vulnerable to that

kind of hurt again). This makes me terribly sad, but I am

beginning to come to terms with the idea that I may be like that

for the rest of my life. I have explained it to my husband, and

he understands that it is a reaction to my past, and not to him.

It saddens him that I carry those scars with me, but he

understands it's not about him. And he still loves and accepts

me for who I am. And I am trying to do the same, and not hate

myself because I flinch when my husband touches me. I guess

what I'm trying to say is that I understand your fear that you

may never " get out " , but I'm not sure it's all about getting

out. There are certain things we can never change, so we just

do the best we can and love ourselves for who we are. And I

think that's an important distinction -- BPs " accept themselves "

for who they are, but they are unaware of their flaws, and I

honestly believe they don't love themselves... in the deepest

recesses of their hearts, I think they hate themselves. So I

think, instead of striving to erase our flaws, we need to

*acknowledge* them and then continue to love ourselves. If we

can change them, great -- if not, at least we can acknowledge

and accept them. If we are aware of our flaws, we can go a long

way to keep them from negatively impacting others.

<<

One example is when she was visiting me at college and we went

to the supermarket, she paid because 'her mother never paid for

anything for her'. She also went into parenthood determined to

be better than her parents, to break their cycle. All the

parenting she gave us, she was actually trying to fill in her

need for parenting.

>>

Yes, I've gotten this too (paying for things, etc.), and it

always made me really uncomfortable. I never quite knew why

(other than the fear of strings attached), so thank you for

clarifying this. What you said makes a lot of sense.

<<

The little girl in me is still in need of parenting; until I get

that straightened out, I'm not about to have kids. If I have

kids, it has got to be for THEM, not for me doing it better than

my parents.

I haven't given up having kids, but having them is not really my

goal. My goal is ME.

>>

I agree with this -- it's important to have yourself

straightened around before dragging an innocent child into the

equation. And I think it's really important to state that your

goal is YOU -- this is kind of an odd concept to KOs, because

for our whole lives, we were always focused on everyone else.

Kudos to you for making yourSelf first in your life. I also

agree with what someone else said though, which is that we are

never " perfect " . Right now, I am focusing on working on myself

(and my hubby is doing some work on some of his issues) because

I think it's important to have certain things worked through

before having kids. I know, though, that I will *always* have

" issues " , so at a certain point I'm going to have to decide if

I'm " fixed enough " and then just go for it!

<<

As for sex - like I said, she was abused long-term as a child.

So

again, instead of working on making her own attitude to sex

positive, she became determined that her kids have healthy sex

lives.

>>

A very astute observation. I guess it makes sense, since BPs

are boundary-less, and view the people around them (most notably

their children) as extensions of themselves. Instead of working

on her Self, she thought she could spare herself the pain (and

simultaneously avoid the idea of being less than perfect, and

therefore being " all bad " in the black and white thinking of a

BP) and resolve her issues by working them out " by proxy " . I

think this is a good lesson, and reinforces the idea that it is

important to work on ourSelves. If I can love my Self and work

on MY issues -- honestly and truthfully -- then it seems that

healthy parenting will flow naturally.

Warm wishes,

Anon

--- Hope wrote:

> Hello -

> Thanks so much for the warm welcome, I guess you already know

> how

> very much it means to me J

>

> Ilene, you asked about my Dad. He was never much of a parent

> to me,

> even less than my Mom. He is a lot less abusive, just way out

> in the

> twilight zone. (Depression plus a whole bunch of other stuff I

> don't

> know if I care to unravel). What makes it hard is that there

> is stuff

> I like and admire about him, too. But I'm very mad at him for

> being

> so pathetic and useless. The past few years I've been working

> as a

> flight attendant and so I got to see him every few months (we

> live in

> different countries). On the one hand I'm glad I got to get to

> know

> him better, and I know how happy he was to see me (I'm glad I

> made

> him happy), on the other I wish he'd just evaporate. Then I

> think

> about the contradictions in my thoughts, and I think about how

> I'm

> splitting, like my nada, and I get angry and upset over the

> whole

> thing.

>

> About having my own family - I'm several steps away from that.

> I

> don't necessarily care if I have kids or not, but I very much

> want to

> reach a point in my life where it will be OKAY for me to have

> kids.

> That's my goal.

>

> Joy, I am also nervous about being found out here. Lately

> (since I've

> opened up this chapter in dealing (emotionally) with my

> family, I've

> been having bad dreams about my mom showing up, and sometimes

> on the

> street I see someone who looks a tiny bit like it might be her

> - and

> my heart skips a beat.

>

> I'm working hard now on being strong, I feel like I need to

> grow for

> a while in a safe place before I can really stand saying

> anything to

> anybody. It's too difficult for me to face her directly now.

> Until

> then - I guess I'll always be a bit nervous about running into

> her.

> Once I did run into her - 5000 miles away from where we both

> live

> (literally!!! in another country!!).

>

> Cyndie, it's so true what you say, that the truth will set you

> free!

> Being honest to my inner self has always been my main goal.

> Sometimes

> I think other people can't handle my truth, it helps not to

> broadcast

> it to indiscriminantly. For example, lately I've found myself

> telling

> friends things I've kept inside forever, and it can be too

> much for

> the friends to handle. I told a few friends about mom's

> diagnosis,

> and about her having been raped by an uncle for a year or two

> when

> she was about 3 or 4 years old. I had this huge bursting need

> to

> tell, I hadn't even realized how much I needed to tell

> somebody about

> it (I've always known it happened, ever since I can remember.

> One

> more black point for mom in my book: telling that to her kids

> when

> they were little). But sharing that sort of thing can be too

> much for

> other people to handle, when they haven't had that sort of

> family

> history (not to mention it's practically too much for me to

> handle,

> WITH many examples of that type of family history). So

> sometimes info

> like that can really scare friends, they get torn, not knowing

> how to

> react, they feel some obligation to 'help', and it's sometimes

> hard

> to make them understand that their help is summed up in

> listening.

> Period.

>

> Kathy, I was thinking about your question about loving and

> accepting

> our friends for who they are. I think if you resent someone,

> it's

> because of something you haven't entirely forgiven them or

> yourself

> for. There's a big difference in being a friend and being a

> therapist/counselor. I've lost friends because they heard

> rough

> things about my family situation and history… they felt they

> had to

> 'help' (=be the counselor) when I was looking for the friend.

> It

> wasn't what I wanted from them, and they were not capable of

> filling

> the part.

>

> , you were saying most parents here were not officially

> diagnosed.. my mom was, as Narcissistic and Borderline, while

> she was

> in marriage counseling with my dad. My Dad told me the

> diagnosis; I

> have no clue whether the therapist told her or just him.

>

> I have mixed feelings about the value of a 'real' diagnosis;

> on the

> one hand, labels can be very damaging, on the other hand - it

> has

> helped me find info on the subject. Plus it sometimes helps me

> shut

> up people who try to go on after me about how she is normal -

> I can

> 'prove' to them she is not. But it's sad that I get into

> situations

> where I feel I need to do that.

>

> Cyndie, I also feel you can't talk out these types of issues

> with

> 'normal' people, because they don't understand. It's the same

> with

> any issue - if you don't have it, you can't possibly

> understand it.

> You can empathize and offer support, but not truly understand.

>

> It's been my choice, as well, to stay solitary until I have a

> better

> sense of identity. I have become aware of my pattern of trying

> to

> find somebody to fill my emptiness. I don't think that's the

> answer.

> It was the answer (or at least was supposed to be) at a small

> age -

> Mahler (psychologist) talks about emotional 'filling up' at

> the age

> when you're starting to walk - you go out and explore, but

> every now

> and then come back to hold on to mom's skirts for a while for

> that

> fill (like filling up on gas at the station). I think I did

> not have

> that filler then, and on some level I'm still looking for it.

> That's

> where I'm stuck right now. Once I get past it, I expect to be

> able to

> truly have adult relationships. I'm glad to have identified

> this

> pattern in me, but it also makes me mad to realize I'm stuck

> at such

> a particularly infantile stage (1 year old! Really! That's

> what I'm

> always mad at mom about (being infantile)… and nothing

> irritates me

> more than finding another way I resemble her).

>

> Minja, I am the only daughter with two brothers. They are

> younger, my

> littlest brother has had similar experiences as I, but we have

> not

> yet been able to talk much about it. I'm pretty sure my being

> the

> daughter has to do with my having received most of the crap.

> It's not

> just because I'm the oldest. Maybe there's a pattern here, the

> nadas

> trying to 'merge' with their daughters; I know mine senses

> there is

> something messed up about her, so she tries to live it through

> me

> instead of dealing with it herself. That must be why breaking

> away is

> repeatedly called 'divorcing' nada. That implies a VERY close,

> strangling relationship. The saying gives me the creeps. When

> I was

> in high school and living with nada, I had recurring

> nightmares about

> waking up in the same bed with her, naked (as if we had had

> sex the

> night before). GROSS! And her earliest hate mail to me

> included

> accusations that I was trying to 'divorce' her. GO AWAY!!

>

> Another word I used to think about in connection to my

> situation is

> eggshells. I moved away so I wouldn't have to walk on

> eggshells

> anymore. What a surprise to find others with that same choice

> of

> words!! I haven't read the book yet; I'll be in the US in

> February

> and will pick up a copy (I still don't feel comfortable buying

> things

> over the net).

>

> , I had a SO for a while whom nada fell totally in love

> with. It

> was disgusting. Her trying to live through me went to the

> extreme of

> her flirting around him, buying him presents that were more

> appropriate for a lover than for one of your kids' friends.

> When we

> broke up, she called him up, crying, about how she wanted them

> to

> still be in touch… One thing that's critical to me in

> relationships

> with men is that they be able to see she's screwy. Not

> everybody can.

>

> Anon - as you see, I am taking literally your statement that

> no posts

> are too long J This is such a dam bursting for me, it's gotta

> get

> out. Right now I don't think I am whole enough to be able to

> have

> kids. Even if I don't repeat ANY of my parents' mistakes,

> there are

> zillions of other mistakes for me to make. And here's the real

> issue:

> Nada had no intention of repeating her parents mistakes. She

> really

> did do a better job of parenting than they did. She certainly

> did not

> plan on all the abuse she administered. She broke the cycle,

> yet the

> cycle continued. I have made great progress but I'm not out of

> the

> circle yet, I'm not sure I can ever totally be out. Nada

> married

> young because she was so eager to have kids, so she could give

> them

> everything she didn't get. It meant she was parenting for

> herself,

> not for us. She was always conscious of how little support she

> got -

> so she tried to give it to us. I don't mean to offend the

> mothers on

> this list who have said how they are trying to give their kids

> all

> they didn't get. This is what happened to me: everytime there

> was a

> situation where she could do something she didn't get, she'd

> be doing

> it BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T GET IT and not because we needed it. One

> example is when she was visiting me at college and we went to

> the

> supermarket, she paid because 'her mother never paid for

> anything for

> her'. She also went into parenthood determined to be better

> than her

> parents, to break their cycle. All the parenting she gave us,

> she was

> actually trying to fill in her need for parenting. Every time

> she'd

> sit with us when we were sick, she'd really be focused on how

> when

> she was sick, she wasn't taken care of. So she was really

> parenting

> herself, not me. It shows!!!!

>

> Cyndie, you were talking about your nada giving herself too

> much

> credit for being a good mother: that is exactly what I'm

> talking

> about here. If the way she was raised =BAD, then doing

> everything the

> opposite does not =GOOD.

>

> The little girl in me is still in need of parenting; until I

> get that

> straightened out, I'm not about to have kids. If I have kids,

> it has

> got to be for THEM, not for me doing it better than my

> parents.

>

> I haven't given up having kids, but having them is not really

> my

> goal. My goal is ME. The line about our upbringing making us

> better

> parents has backfired miserably in several generations of my

> FOO.

> It's a nice idea, but I'd like to clarify: it is OVERCOMING

> your

> upbringing that can make you a better parent.

>

> Joy, I've found affirmations are a great way to strengthen a

> commitment to change! I'd like to suggest you try them in the

> present

> tense: 'I now respect myself'.

>

> Kathleen - your post about nada feeding the babies choking

> candy, and

> showing the girls R movies brought up memories that made me

> shiver.

> When my brother was real little (I'm talking two years old) he

> went

> through a suicidal phase. Once he stood in the kitchen with a

> huge

> knife positioned to plunge into his belly. Nada talked to him

> about

> 'why'. She was playing with his death!! Another time he stood

> on the

> window sill and said he was going to jump. She held firmly

> onto his

> shirt (like that would have been enough to catch him) and

> said, okay,

> jump!! Again, she was focusing on HER own guilt feelings of

> almost

> having had an abortion when she was pregnant with him. Instead

> of

> focusing on the kid, and saying how she absolutely loved him

> alive

> and would not allow him to die. In a twisted way, she was

> trying to

> hear why he felt that way so she could figure out if her own

> guilt

> feelings were justified or not, and she rationalized it by

> trying to

> 'let him express his feelings'. Oooooh, the creepy shivers!!

>

> As for sex - like I said, she was abused long-term as a child.

> So

> again, instead of working on making her own attitude to sex

> positive,

> she became determined that her kids have healthy sex lives.

> (trying

> to give them what she didn't get, again!!) She still has no

> clue

> about what is appropriate and what isn't. How disgusting to

> try to be

> part of your kids' sex lives. She'd encourage my brothers to

> have

> girls sleep over at the age of 14 'because it's healthy'!!!

> With me

> it was slightly different.

>

> Okay, this is turning out longer than three papers I'm late

> turning

> in. Bye for now, everybody; thanks for listening. I'll be

> thinking of

> you and sending you all love and light.

>

> Hope.

__________________________________________________

January 2, 2002

This an interesting thread. I think both points of view are valid.

There are those who feel the need to wait for kids until the issues

are worked through.

There are those, like me, who have succeeded in being good parents,

in spite of the hand dealt to us. I take great strength from that,

and with my oldest now being 16, I can see what the power of

unconditional love and conscious parenting can do.

So in a way, whether you have kids later, or have kids now, you can

still be a good parent. Kids need a whole lot of love, but they are

also easy to love.And loving someone is a joy. It does not sap

strength, it makes one stronger. They aren't born manipulative or

fogging. A basic class in child psychology is a huge help. Once I

knew how they were wired, and the phases of development, I was able

to know that 2-4 months there might be colic,at 8 months they would

cry if I left the room, at two they would become very frustrated. It

all made sense.

What I am trying to say is that it can be done, I'm doing it. My

husband says I'm the best mother he ever met. I am super intuitive

about the process and there is definitely a sensitivity to the

childhood state of powerlessness.Well, this has been my experience.

I'm glad I didn't wait because then I'd be 45 and now I can't have

any more kids, biology has in the end shaped my destiny by calling an

end to the childbearing years.And what joy I would have missed.

Kathleen

January 14, 2002

Someone mentioned fear of having children because they didn't want to

do this same abuse to their own kids. I used to fear this too and I

have to admit, I have had my weak times. I am far from perfect. I

have a tough little boy who is autistic and quite challenging in even

the easiest of times. But I have to agree with what Joy said below,

if you work on those weaker areas, plus, if you know where those

areas are, you have built a much stronger foundation for your

parenting skills. Also, it helps to have a good spouse along side

you. Get to know who you are marrying or who you are with.

>Don't forget, you are not your parents.

> Your true nature will come out when you have children

> - your natural loving self. Don't think you have to

> be perfect before allowing yourself to have children.

> You will continue to grow as you raise them. Someone

> said the key to raising children is " create a safe

> loving space for them to grow, and KEEP WORKING ON

> YOURSELF "

Gosh! Yes! I completely agree to this.

January 15, 2002

I fell into having my kids (2 boys 13 & 15). Unplanned and unexpected.

When they were growing up I didn't know about BPD and such, but I was not

the same mother as my nada. I made an unconscious decision to never be the

same type of mom as my nada. She has given me a hard time about that. She

has given me a hard time about that saying things like It was good enough

for you and I don't understand parents today etc. But where I'm going with

this is that even though I never planned on having kids they are the

greatest gift I ever received. I look at my kids and am so proud of who

they are becoming. Having kids is a personal decision, but we aren't our

parents. And by knowing what they did to hurt us we can change the

messages. In addition, I basically raised my kids myself as my husband was

very upset that I didn't do something about the pregnancies and I spent

years proving to him that kids would not change his lifestyle. Hope this

makes sense to ya'll, I'm not sure it does to me.

jules