RE: Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

[Guest guest]

Glad to see someone mention the whole body ecology

diet site - maybe read the autism info to see how they

try to build up the child's system. I don't see why it

couldn't work for anyone.

--- chicsingr2 wrote:

> Hi Cassandra,

> It could be that you need to introduce healthy,

> dairy-loving bacteria back into your

> system. The way you do that is through fermented

> products like kefir, yogurt, lacto-

> fermented veggies, etc. I would obtain some kefir

> grains if I were in your position, and

> make kefir first and start out like that. See if

> you have the same problem. If so, then you

> REALLY need daity-loving bacteria introduced into

> your system and I would make the

> move to coconut juice kefir. See

> www.bodyecologydiet.com for instructions on that.

> Stay

> with it for about 6 months, to get a good culture

> going internally, then try the dairy kefir

> again, or the plain raw milk again, depending on

> which way you go with.

>

> If you STILL cannot tolerate the dairy, then yes, I

> would say your body is one of the rare

> ones that absolutely cannot tolerate any dairy.

> :-)

> D.

>

>

> > Hi Everyone,

> > I have been getting sweet, delicious, nutritious,

> raw milk from a

> > reputable farm for about 9 months now. For the

> first 6 months, I was

> > drinking it, and had chronic diarreah and gained

> weight.

> > Now, for the last three months, I have nearly

> eliminated it from my

> > diet, and have dropped weight (with exercise and

> dieting as well) and

> > have solid stools again.

> > I am sure this has came up here, can anyone help

> me understand why?

> > Is raw milk just bad for *MY* body?

> > My husband and two children do wonderful on it, by

> the way, so we will

> > still be buying it! My children have put on weight

> since drinking it,

> > but they are very petite so it makes me happy!

> > Thanks for your thoughts,

> > Cassandra

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Cassandra, another suggestion would be to try goat milk instead of cow milk. For some people it makes a difference. For my son it was cleaner residue in the commerically produced milk that caused all the lactose intolarance symptoms and hand milking fixed that. This is why I am interested in organic methods of cleaning diary lines. One day we will have too many to milk by hand.

Debbie ChikouskyManitoba, Canadagdchik@...http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/

[Guest guest]

Cassabdra - make sure you are drinking organic raw

milk from GRASS FED COWS - see eatwild.com and

westonaprice.org for information and importance of

grass fed only. Cows should never be fed grain. Their

three stomach system was not created to digest it. It

vcreates trouble with their digesting...

>

> > Cassandra, another suggestion would be to try goat

> milk instead of cow milk. For some

> people it makes a difference. For my son it was

> cleaner residue in the commerically

> produced milk that caused all the lactose

> intolarance symptoms and hand milking fixed that.

> This is why I am interested in organic methods of

> cleaning diary lines. One day we will have

> too many to milk by hand.

> > Debbie Chikousky

> > Manitoba, Canada

> > gdchik@m...

> > http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I've NEVER heard of people having an adverse affect from the milk because cattle were fed grain. Maybe something else added to the grain, but not the grain itself.

Those of us that feed grain to our cattle during milking and sell that milk whether through cow shares or legally have never had people adversely affected because of the grain.

But, we won't get into the grain discussion again.

K.C.

Re: Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

Cassabdra - make sure you are drinking organic rawmilk from GRASS FED COWS - see eatwild.com andwestonaprice.org for information and importance ofgrass fed only. Cows should never be fed grain. Theirthree stomach system was not created to digest it. Itvcreates trouble with their digesting... > > > Cassandra, another suggestion would be to try goat> milk instead of cow milk. For some > people it makes a difference. For my son it was> cleaner residue in the commerically > produced milk that caused all the lactose> intolarance symptoms and hand milking fixed that. > This is why I am interested in organic methods of> cleaning diary lines. One day we will have > too many to milk by hand.> > Debbie Chikousky> > Manitoba, Canada> > gdchik@m...> > http://www.winnipegbeach.com/chikouskyfarms/> > > > >

[Guest guest]

--- Tinybabe wrote:

> I've NEVER heard of people having an adverse affect

> from the milk because cattle were fed grain. Maybe

> something else added to the grain, but not the grain

> itself.

>

> Those of us that feed grain to our cattle during

> milking and sell that milk whether through cow

> shares or legally have never had people adversely

> affected because of the grain.

>

> But, we won't get into the grain discussion again.

>

> K.C.

..

> I fed my cows grain for 20+ years. It wasn't til I

quit feeding grain that I realized how much the grain

was hurting them. Their immune system and digestive

system are not seperate.Feeding grain makes their

digestive system too acid,Which eliminates much of the

bacteria that should be in their system.The whole

process is speeded up and the cow gets fewer nutrients

out of the feed.When you feed the bacteria in the cows

rumen the proper food they will protect the cow by

crowding out other things that might be harmfull.like

when you have the proper ph in your soil your grass

and legumes do so well that they don't leave room for

weeds to get established. The cows will stand still if

you give them some salt and kelp to eat.I found that

not feeding grain eliminated the rats and sparrows

that it attracted and also the flies that were

attracted to the strong smelling manure. michael in mi

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

______________________________________________________

Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/

[Guest guest]

Excellent in mi! please e-mail me at

rjawa@... as I'd like to discuss this

further and hear more about your operation - Thanks

ckj

Milk from grain fed cows has a different composition

than milk from grass fed cows. Milk's natural anti -

pathogenic properties are compromised by the addition

of grain to a ruminant's diet. Let's not even get into

what happens when you feed them soy.

> > I fed my cows grain for 20+ years. It wasn't til I

> quit feeding grain that I realized how much the

> grain

> was hurting them. Their immune system and digestive

> system are not seperate.Feeding grain makes their

> digestive system too acid,Which eliminates much of

> the

> bacteria that should be in their system.The whole

> process is speeded up and the cow gets fewer

> nutrients

> out of the feed.When you feed the bacteria in the

> cows

> rumen the proper food they will protect the cow by

> crowding out other things that might be

> harmfull.like

> when you have the proper ph in your soil your grass

> and legumes do so well that they don't leave room

> for

> weeds to get established. The cows will stand still

> if

> you give them some salt and kelp to eat.I found that

> not feeding grain eliminated the rats and sparrows

> that it attracted and also the flies that were

> attracted to the strong smelling manure. michael in

> mi

> >

> >

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________

> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief

> effort.

> http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't feed that much. It's used primarily to get her to come up for "Goodies" when I milk. She's never been ill or had any problems. I know some dairies and some people pour the grain into them, but that's not how I work.

Speaking of acid, I, as well as others, are trying the apple cider vinegar in order to get heifers. This is acidic and she loves it. I cleaned the water tub the other day, poured in some of the vinegar and she started lapping it up and I shooed her away because I didn't want her to drink up all the vinegar before I added the water. Doesen't seem to have any adverse affects on her.

She also gets some of the ACV in her grain in the morning. Just loves it.

I don't find any acidity in her grain. It's not fermented or the type that has been sitting in some silo all year. This is fresh grain and I add molasses and the vinegar in the morning.

K.C.

Re: Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

--- Tinybabe wrote:> I've NEVER heard of people having an adverse affect> from the milk because cattle were fed grain. Maybe> something else added to the grain, but not the grain> itself.> > Those of us that feed grain to our cattle during> milking and sell that milk whether through cow> shares or legally have never had people adversely> affected because of the grain.> > But, we won't get into the grain discussion again.> > K.C.. > I fed my cows grain for 20+ years. It wasn't til Iquit feeding grain that I realized how much the grainwas hurting them. Their immune system and digestivesystem are not seperate.Feeding grain makes theirdigestive system too acid,Which eliminates much of thebacteria that should be in their system.The wholeprocess is speeded up and the cow gets fewer nutrientsout of the feed.When you feed the bacteria in the cowsrumen the proper food they will protect the cow bycrowding out other things that might be harmfull.likewhen you have the proper ph in your soil your grassand legumes do so well that they don't leave room forweeds to get established. The cows will stand still ifyou give them some salt and kelp to eat.I found thatnot feeding grain eliminated the rats and sparrowsthat it attracted and also the flies that wereattracted to the strong smelling manure. michael in mi> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > ______________________________________________________Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/

[Guest guest]

Dear , since you did open up the grain issue

again...what part of ruminants' not being designed to

eat grain do you not understand? This is not a celiac

sprue / gluten intolerance issue, this is a matter of

cow's stomachs

being designed to consume grass and nothing else.

Any other food will change the fatty acid and

bacterial profiles of their milk.

--- chicsingr2 wrote:

> Just FYI, generally people who have trouble with any

> grain feeding at all are those who are

> gluten intolerant and/or have celiac sprue disease.

> These people cannot tolerate gluten,

> even from trace amounts in milk.

>

> Not to open up the grain discussion again.

> :-)

> D.

>

>

> > I've NEVER heard of people having an adverse

> affect from the milk because cattle were

> fed grain. Maybe something else added to the grain,

> but not the grain itself.

> >

> > Those of us that feed grain to our cattle during

> milking and sell that milk whether

> through cow shares or legally have never had people

> adversely affected because of the

> grain.

> >

> > But, we won't get into the grain discussion again.

> >

> > K.C.

> > Re: Re: I love raw milk but

> does it love me?

> >

> >

> > Cassabdra - make sure you are drinking organic

> raw

> > milk from GRASS FED COWS - see eatwild.com and

> > westonaprice.org for information and importance

> of

> > grass fed only. Cows should never be fed grain.

> Their

> > three stomach system was not created to digest

> it. It

> > vcreates trouble with their digesting...

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- Cassandra wrote:

> Hi in MI,

> I am in MI as well. Do you have a cow share program

> or do you just

> raise cows for your own dairy consumption?

> I belong to " Our Farm and Dairy " in St. 's, MI.

> They are pastured cows, but as far as I know, they

> do supplement with

> organic corn.

> Will try the kefir.

> Thanks for the recommendations,

> Cassandra

>

> I'm in Hillsdale county down close to the ohio

indiana line. I mostly make cheese which I can send

through the mail. I have an informal herdshare

agreement with a couple of co-ops. Do you have a

contract with the farm or is it just a verbal

agreement? michael in mi

> >

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I totally understand the issue w/ overfeeding concentrates/ HOWEVER, my

cows, ON PASTURE will choose to eat seed heads at various times of year,

from whatever is palatable at the time. Right now they are snacking on

pigweed seeds. Fine, if they don't decide to eat nothing but pigweed! (then

you have NASTY milk). They will eat wild onions, not a grass either. There

is a very big difference between conventional concentrate feeding, and

presuming it is wrong to have them eat anything but grass. They will eat

clover, a legume, not a grass, they will eat tree leaves, not a grass, they

will eat roots in the winter, . I think everyone hear understands the

changes when too much in the way of concentrate supplementation happens, but

let's not get on a anti-concentrate tangent please. We each have our own

perspectives, and while no one is unwilling to learn new info, we have had

all sides previously presented.

www.MajestyFarm.com

" Few Men desire Liberty; most Men only wish for a just master. " Sallust

Re: Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

Dear , since you did open up the grain issue

again...what part of ruminants' not being designed to

eat grain do you not understand? This is not a celiac

sprue / gluten intolerance issue, this is a matter of

cow's stomachs

being designed to consume grass and nothing else.

Any other food will change the fatty acid and

bacterial profiles of their milk.

--- chicsingr2 wrote:

> Just FYI, generally people who have trouble with any

> grain feeding at all are those who are

> gluten intolerant and/or have celiac sprue disease.

> These people cannot tolerate gluten,

> even from trace amounts in milk.

>

> Not to open up the grain discussion again.

> :-)

> D.

>

>

> > I've NEVER heard of people having an adverse

> affect from the milk because cattle were

> fed grain. Maybe something else added to the grain,

> but not the grain itself.

> >

> > Those of us that feed grain to our cattle during

> milking and sell that milk whether

> through cow shares or legally have never had people

> adversely affected because of the

> grain.

> >

> > But, we won't get into the grain discussion again.

> >

> > K.C.

> > Re: Re: I love raw milk but

> does it love me?

> >

> >

> > Cassabdra - make sure you are drinking organic

> raw

> > milk from GRASS FED COWS - see eatwild.com and

> > westonaprice.org for information and importance

> of

> > grass fed only. Cows should never be fed grain.

> Their

> > three stomach system was not created to digest

> it. It

> > vcreates trouble with their digesting...

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

point well taken - and the plants you are talking

about aren't concentrated starch sources . I was

referring to noy feeding them grains not opposed to

them nibbling what is in their grassy pasture -

--- lotzakdz wrote:

> I totally understand the issue w/ overfeeding

> concentrates/ HOWEVER, my

> cows, ON PASTURE will choose to eat seed heads at

> various times of year,

> from whatever is palatable at the time. Right now

> they are snacking on

> pigweed seeds. Fine, if they don't decide to eat

> nothing but pigweed! (then

> you have NASTY milk). They will eat wild onions, not

> a grass either. There

> is a very big difference between conventional

> concentrate feeding, and

> presuming it is wrong to have them eat anything but

> grass. They will eat

> clover, a legume, not a grass, they will eat tree

> leaves, not a grass, they

> will eat roots in the winter, . I think everyone

> hear understands the

> changes when too much in the way of concentrate

> supplementation happens, but

> let's not get on a anti-concentrate tangent please.

> We each have our own

> perspectives, and while no one is unwilling to learn

> new info, we have had

> all sides previously presented.

>

>

>

> www.MajestyFarm.com

> " Few Men desire Liberty; most Men only wish for a

> just master. " Sallust

>

>

> Re: Re: I love raw milk but does

> it love me?

>

> Dear , since you did open up the grain issue

> again...what part of ruminants' not being designed

> to

> eat grain do you not understand? This is not a

> celiac

> sprue / gluten intolerance issue, this is a matter

> of

> cow's stomachs

> being designed to consume grass and nothing else.

> Any other food will change the fatty acid and

> bacterial profiles of their milk.

>

> --- chicsingr2 wrote:

>

> > Just FYI, generally people who have trouble with

> any

> > grain feeding at all are those who are

> > gluten intolerant and/or have celiac sprue

> disease.

> > These people cannot tolerate gluten,

> > even from trace amounts in milk.

> >

> > Not to open up the grain discussion again.

> > :-)

> > D.

> >

> >

> > > I've NEVER heard of people having an adverse

> > affect from the milk because cattle were

> > fed grain. Maybe something else added to the

> grain,

> > but not the grain itself.

> > >

> > > Those of us that feed grain to our cattle during

> > milking and sell that milk whether

> > through cow shares or legally have never had

> people

> > adversely affected because of the

> > grain.

> > >

> > > But, we won't get into the grain discussion

> again.

> > >

> > > K.C.

> > > Re: Re: I love raw milk

> but

> > does it love me?

> > >

> > >

> > > Cassabdra - make sure you are drinking organic

> > raw

> > > milk from GRASS FED COWS - see eatwild.com and

> > > westonaprice.org for information and

> importance

> > of

> > > grass fed only. Cows should never be fed

> grain.

> > Their

> > > three stomach system was not created to digest

> > it. It

> > > vcreates trouble with their digesting...

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

A good concentrate mix is not just " a concentrated starch source "

And not just added protein either.

A dairy production animal is also being pushed at different production than

beef, and unless genetically adapted for production on NOTHING but forage is

being drained by daily, mostly 2x a day, milking, and may need extra

calorie, protein, fat, and mineral and micronutrient, and probiotic sources

in addition to pasture, EXPECIALLY in areas such as ours that is

predominately fescue. A great drought tolerant and steady source of grass,

but not good to allow to develop seed heads (endophyte issues). But fescue

is not a highly rated nutritional product.

Beeves do just fine. Milkers tend to need a higher nutrition level. And

supplementing w/ a small amount of well balanced concentrate (NOT just

" grains " ) is akin to providing people who have additional demands (pregnant,

lactating, ill) extra nutrient dense foods.

I only milk once a day. I select for lower producers that do better with

less concentrate. I leave the calves on, thereby reducing calf stress and

mama stress. But they still need a bit of supplementation for condition, be

it a product such as chaff hay, my special concentrate mix, or root crops.

Non-milkers have no need for this.

www.MajestyFarm.com

" Few Men desire Liberty; most Men only wish for a just master. " Sallust

Re: Re: I love raw milk but does

> it love me?

>

> Dear , since you did open up the grain issue

> again...what part of ruminants' not being designed

> to

> eat grain do you not understand? This is not a

> celiac

> sprue / gluten intolerance issue, this is a matter

> of

> cow's stomachs

> being designed to consume grass and nothing else.

> Any other food will change the fatty acid and

> bacterial profiles of their milk.

>

> --- chicsingr2 wrote:

>

> > Just FYI, generally people who have trouble with

> any

> > grain feeding at all are those who are

> > gluten intolerant and/or have celiac sprue

> disease.

> > These people cannot tolerate gluten,

> > even from trace amounts in milk.

> >

> > Not to open up the grain discussion again.

> > :-)

> > D.

> >

> >

> > > I've NEVER heard of people having an adverse

> > affect from the milk because cattle were

> > fed grain. Maybe something else added to the

> grain,

> > but not the grain itself.

> > >

> > > Those of us that feed grain to our cattle during

> > milking and sell that milk whether

> > through cow shares or legally have never had

> people

> > adversely affected because of the

> > grain.

> > >

> > > But, we won't get into the grain discussion

> again.

> > >

> > > K.C.

> > > Re: Re: I love raw milk

> but

> > does it love me?

> > >

> > >

> > > Cassabdra - make sure you are drinking organic

> > raw

> > > milk from GRASS FED COWS - see eatwild.com and

> > > westonaprice.org for information and

> importance

> > of

> > > grass fed only. Cows should never be fed

> grain.

> > Their

> > > three stomach system was not created to digest

> > it. It

> > > vcreates trouble with their digesting...

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I agree. Are you saying that a good pasture blend won't grow in your area? There is a company here that produces pasture seed mixes for just about any area, including draught areas. Orchard grass usually does well in dry areas. I know they have a dry land mix that is high in protein and has several different grasses in it. All their fescues are certified endophyte free.

I think I still have their catalog and can get the list of the mixture of seed for you if you are interested. You can overseed your pasture in the fall to have it come up in the spring.

K.C.

RE: Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

A good concentrate mix is not just "a concentrated starch source" And not just added protein either.A dairy production animal is also being pushed at different production thanbeef, and unless genetically adapted for production on NOTHING but forage isbeing drained by daily, mostly 2x a day, milking, and may need extracalorie, protein, fat, and mineral and micronutrient, and probiotic sourcesin addition to pasture, EXPECIALLY in areas such as ours that ispredominately fescue. A great drought tolerant and steady source of grass,but not good to allow to develop seed heads (endophyte issues). But fescueis not a highly rated nutritional product.Beeves do just fine. Milkers tend to need a higher nutrition level. Andsupplementing w/ a small amount of well balanced concentrate (NOT just"grains") is akin to providing people who have additional demands (pregnant,lactating, ill) extra nutrient dense foods.I only milk once a day. I select for lower producers that do better withless concentrate. I leave the calves on, thereby reducing calf stress andmama stress. But they still need a bit of supplementation for condition, beit a product such as chaff hay, my special concentrate mix, or root crops.Non-milkers have no need for this. www.MajestyFarm.com"Few Men desire Liberty; most Men only wish for a just master." Sallust

[Guest guest]

Sure,

I could get a good pasture blend to grow in this area. IF I eliminated the

fescue, drilled in the seed, watered it (currently we are very dry) and kept animals

off for the first year and just made hay.

Orchard

grass does not survive drought. We planted a field of orchard grass from a

cleared area in 2001, and the next year the drought conditions burned it dry.

By the next spring fescue had returned lush and grass WITHOUT seeding, and

pretty much filled in. This area is full of fescue, as is most of the

southeast, and will revert to fescue in time of management lapse and land

stress. We also have lots of clover to help balance it out. BUT I personally have

neither the time, money, or desire to try and eliminate a grass that is drought

resistant, hardy, grows well, and does not require extensive management.

Orchard grass/fescue combined fields can work well, but you have to constantly

reseed the orchard grass. I am not interested in fighting that expensive and

time consuming battle. I use goats for scrub and weed maintenance, and do

not go for the concepts of high intensity management in brush control either.

Endophyte free fescue may be a good idea, but then again, you cannot guarantee

that it will not revert, nor that the native fescue will not come through.

Being careful that the seed heads are not at the wrong stage is easy and important

management. Feeding a hi-magnesium mineral , or a fescue balancing mineral

takes care of spring issues. I am not up for fighting a grass that is prevalent,

works well in our weather conditions, and is low maintenance for the sake of

being a purist. We have covered this ground on the list before, and each has

their own opinions, but the fact is trying to fit every farm in the same mold

is quite silly, given the wide range of conditions, genetic dispositions, and

monetary demands.

www.MajestyFarm.com

" Few

Men desire Liberty;

most Men only wish for a just master. " Sallust

From:

RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Tinybabe

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005

8:39 AM

To: RawDairy

Subject: Re: Re: I love

raw milk but does it love me?

I agree. Are you

saying that a good pasture blend won't grow in your area? There is a

company here that produces pasture seed mixes for just about any area,

including draught areas. Orchard grass usually does well in dry

areas. I know they have a dry land mix that is high in protein and has

several different grasses in it. All their fescues are certified

endophyte free.

I think I still have

their catalog and can get the list of the mixture of seed for you if you

are interested. You can overseed your pasture in the fall to have it come

up in the spring.

K.C.

RE:

Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

A good concentrate mix is not just " a

concentrated starch source "

And not just added protein either.

A dairy production animal is also being pushed at

different production than

beef, and unless genetically adapted for

production on NOTHING but forage is

being drained by daily, mostly 2x a day, milking,

and may need extra

calorie, protein, fat, and mineral and

micronutrient, and probiotic sources

in addition to pasture, EXPECIALLY in areas such

as ours that is

predominately fescue. A great drought tolerant and

steady source of grass,

but not good to allow to develop seed heads

(endophyte issues). But fescue

is not a highly rated nutritional product.

Beeves do just fine. Milkers tend to need a higher

nutrition level. And

supplementing w/ a small amount of well balanced

concentrate (NOT just

" grains " ) is akin to providing people

who have additional demands (pregnant,

lactating, ill) extra nutrient dense foods.

I only milk once a day. I select for lower

producers that do better with

less concentrate. I leave the calves on, thereby

reducing calf stress and

mama stress. But they still need a bit of

supplementation for condition, be

it a product such as chaff hay, my special

concentrate mix, or root crops.

Non-milkers have no need for this.

www.MajestyFarm.com

" Few Men desire Liberty; most Men only wish for a just

master. " Sallust

[Guest guest]

It was just a suggestion. We are quite dry here too and I had the pasture professionally tilled out and re-seeded this year and will add see this fall to hopefully get a little better pasture. My lawns have gone to hell in a hand basket because of the gophers, so I'm spending what I have on the pasture. It is very expensive and time consuming, but at least we have irrigation water, so I can keep it wet in the hottest part of the summer. Have to do something with hay prices going sky high due to the fuel thing.

I always offer mineral blocks and HI MAG in a tub in the winter. Seems to keep everyone in good shape.

K.C.

RE: Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

A good concentrate mix is not just "a concentrated starch source" And not just added protein either.A dairy production animal is also being pushed at different production thanbeef, and unless genetically adapted for production on NOTHING but forage isbeing drained by daily, mostly 2x a day, milking, and may need extracalorie, protein, fat, and mineral and micronutrient, and probiotic sourcesin addition to pasture, EXPECIALLY in areas such as ours that ispredominately fescue. A great drought tolerant and steady source of grass,but not good to allow to develop seed heads (endophyte issues). But fescueis not a highly rated nutritional product.Beeves do just fine. Milkers tend to need a higher nutrition level. Andsupplementing w/ a small amount of well balanced concentrate (NOT just"grains") is akin to providing people who have additional demands (pregnant,lactating, ill) extra nutrient dense foods.I only milk once a day. I select for lower producers that do better withless concentrate. I leave the calves on, thereby reducing calf stress andmama stress. But they still need a bit of supplementation for condition, beit a product such as chaff hay, my special concentrate mix, or root crops.Non-milkers have no need for this. www.MajestyFarm.com"Few Men desire Liberty; most Men only wish for a just master." Sallust

[Guest guest]

KC…

When people

talk about “acidity” in grain, it is looking at it from a

nutritional standpoint as to whether certain foods are alkaline or

acidic. A body that has an improper pH (be it cow, human, canine, etc.)

that it out of whack with what it was designed to be is a body that is prone to

such things as diseases, early death, arthritis, cancer, digestive issues, etc.,

just to name a few, just like described. You can’t “find”

acidity in her grain. Grain is acidic. Period.

Grain changes the pH balance of cows, increasing acidity (not a good thing),

reducing the pH, because grains ferment FASTER in the rumen than do grasses.

What Micheal is attesting to is that grains, once ingested, are acidic, and

because of the slow ferment, unlike grasses, can cause some problems. I know just enough to keep myself from getting my

own cow but not much more to take this to a deeper level. But grain is

acidic…..of that, there’s no question. So, why are you adding

vinegar?

-Sharon, NH

Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for

your cattle, and you will have plenty to eat.

I don't find any acidity in her grain. It's not

fermented or the type that has been sitting in some silo all year. This

is fresh grain and I add molasses and the vinegar in the morning.

K.C.

[Guest guest]

I've read that, too, about the "grain/acidity" issue. It can also lower butterfat %. My goats and sheep are content to stand at milking for just plain old alfalfa. Pelleted form can also be used so that they think they are getting a different treat. : ) Shery

Sunspring Ranch

Dairy Sheep & Mini Dairy Goats

(Among other things!)

Utah

Re: Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

--- Tinybabe wrote:> I've NEVER heard of people having an adverse affect> from the milk because cattle were fed grain. Maybe> something else added to the grain, but not the grain> itself.> > Those of us that feed grain to our cattle during> milking and sell that milk whether through cow> shares or legally have never had people adversely> affected because of the grain.> > But, we won't get into the grain discussion again.> > K.C.. > I fed my cows grain for 20+ years. It wasn't til Iquit feeding grain that I realized how much the grainwas hurting them. Their immune system and digestivesystem are not seperate.Feeding grain makes theirdigestive system too acid,Which eliminates much of thebacteria that should be in their system.The wholeprocess is speeded up and the cow gets fewer nutrientsout of the feed.When you feed the bacteria in the cowsrumen the proper food they will protect the cow bycrowding out other things that might be harmfull.likewhen you have the proper ph in your soil your grassand legumes do so well that they don't leave room forweeds to get established. The cows will stand still ifyou give them some salt and kelp to eat.I found thatnot feeding grain eliminated the rats and sparrowsthat it attracted and also the flies that wereattracted to the strong smelling manure. michael in mi> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > ______________________________________________________Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/

[Guest guest]

K.C., I would be interested in the catalog info please. We've been overrun with foxtails this year and it has been a nightmare slicing abscesses, ruined wool, etc. We've got to reseed a lot - hopefully something can smother out those nasty, awful buggars. Thanks : ) Shery

Sunspring Ranch

Dairy Sheep & Mini Dairy Goats

(Among other things!)

Utah

RE: Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

A good concentrate mix is not just "a concentrated starch source" And not just added protein either.A dairy production animal is also being pushed at different production thanbeef, and unless genetically adapted for production on NOTHING but forage isbeing drained by daily, mostly 2x a day, milking, and may need extracalorie, protein, fat, and mineral and micronutrient, and probiotic sourcesin addition to pasture, EXPECIALLY in areas such as ours that ispredominately fescue. A great drought tolerant and steady source of grass,but not good to allow to develop seed heads (endophyte issues). But fescueis not a highly rated nutritional product.Beeves do just fine. Milkers tend to need a higher nutrition level. Andsupplementing w/ a small amount of well balanced concentrate (NOT just"grains") is akin to providing people who have additional demands (pregnant,lactating, ill) extra nutrient dense foods.I only milk once a day. I select for lower producers that do better withless concentrate. I leave the calves on, thereby reducing calf stress andmama stress. But they still need a bit of supplementation for condition, beit a product such as chaff hay, my special concentrate mix, or root crops.Non-milkers have no need for this. www.MajestyFarm.com"Few Men desire Liberty; most Men only wish for a just master." Sallust

[Guest guest]

Apple Cidar Vinegar, when fed to cattle and other warm blooded animals, is known to make the body acidic enough to kill off male sperm so that only the female survive. Hence, you get heifers and not bull calves. There's a lady in Montana that has been doing with for 3 years and the only bull calf she had was out of a cow she put in with the bull in a separate area and didn't have access to the water with the ACV in it.

I was able to get pure ACV, not diluted like you get in the market, from a local business that made a deal with the farmer that produces it. Rather then put it in the water now (which I was doing), I'm putting it in the grain (another breeder does this) and will see what happens. Margie and Princess will both be A.I.ed this month. It's not a cheap venture. I was able to get it for $4 a gallon with my own jugs or it would have been more.

At one time the company that makes the grain I was buying was putting ACV in the grain to prevent the molasses from molding. That is the only time in almost 10 years that I had 2 heifer calves. So, I figure it's worth a try.

Considering all the other benefits of ACV, I figure it can't be too bad for them.

K.C.

RE: Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

KC…

When people talk about “acidity” in grain, it is looking at it from a nutritional standpoint as to whether certain foods are alkaline or acidic. A body that has an improper pH (be it cow, human, canine, etc.) that it out of whack with what it was designed to be is a body that is prone to such things as diseases, early death, arthritis, cancer, digestive issues, etc., just to name a few, just like described. You can’t “find” acidity in her grain. Grain is acidic. Period. Grain changes the pH balance of cows, increasing acidity (not a good thing), reducing the pH, because grains ferment FASTER in the rumen than do grasses. What Micheal is attesting to is that grains, once ingested, are acidic, and because of the slow ferment, unlike grasses, can cause some problems. I know just enough to keep myself from getting my own cow but not much more to take this to a deeper level. But grain is acidic…..of that, there’s no question. So, why are you adding vinegar?

-Sharon, NHDeut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will have plenty to eat.

I don't find any acidity in her grain. It's not fermented or the type that has been sitting in some silo all year. This is fresh grain and I add molasses and the vinegar in the morning.

K.C.

[Guest guest]

I had a problem with the computer running slow. Did you get the info yet?

If not, let me know and I'll get the 800 number.

K.C.

RE: Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

A good concentrate mix is not just "a concentrated starch source" And not just added protein either.A dairy production animal is also being pushed at different production thanbeef, and unless genetically adapted for production on NOTHING but forage isbeing drained by daily, mostly 2x a day, milking, and may need extracalorie, protein, fat, and mineral and micronutrient, and probiotic sourcesin addition to pasture, EXPECIALLY in areas such as ours that ispredominately fescue. A great drought tolerant and steady source of grass,but not good to allow to develop seed heads (endophyte issues). But fescueis not a highly rated nutritional product.Beeves do just fine. Milkers tend to need a higher nutrition level. Andsupplementing w/ a small amount of well balanced concentrate (NOT just"grains") is akin to providing people who have additional demands (pregnant,lactating, ill) extra nutrient dense foods.I only milk once a day. I select for lower producers that do better withless concentrate. I leave the calves on, thereby reducing calf stress andmama stress. But they still need a bit of supplementation for condition, beit a product such as chaff hay, my special concentrate mix, or root crops.Non-milkers have no need for this. www.MajestyFarm.com"Few Men desire Liberty; most Men only wish for a just master." Sallust

[Guest guest]

--- lotzakdz wrote:

> Sure, I could get a good pasture blend to grow in

> this area. IF I eliminated

> the fescue, drilled in the seed, watered it

> (currently we are very dry) and

> kept animals off for the first year and just made

> hay.

>

>

>

> Orchard grass does not survive drought. We planted a

> field of orchard grass

> from a cleared area in 2001, and the next year the

> drought conditions burned

> it dry. By the next spring fescue had returned lush

> and grass WITHOUT

> seeding, and pretty much filled in. This area is

> full of fescue, as is most

> of the southeast, and will revert to fescue in time

> of management lapse and

> land stress. We also have lots of clover to help

> balance it out. BUT I

> personally have neither the time, money, or desire

> to try and eliminate a

> grass that is drought resistant, hardy, grows well,

> and does not require

> extensive management. Orchard grass/fescue combined

> fields can work well,

> but you have to constantly reseed the orchard grass.

> I am not interested in

> fighting that expensive and time consuming battle.

> I use goats for scrub

> and weed maintenance, and do not go for the concepts

> of high intensity

> management in brush control either. Endophyte free

> fescue may be a good

> idea, but then again, you cannot guarantee that it

> will not revert, nor that

> the native fescue will not come through. Being

> careful that the seed heads

> are not at the wrong stage is easy and important

> management. Feeding a

> hi-magnesium mineral , or a fescue balancing mineral

> takes care of spring

> issues. I am not up for fighting a grass that is

> prevalent, works well in

> our weather conditions, and is low maintenance for

> the sake of being a

> purist. We have covered this ground on the list

> before, and each has their

> own opinions, but the fact is trying to fit every

> farm in the same mold is

> quite silly, given the wide range of conditions,

> genetic dispositions, and

> monetary demands.

>

>

> , We started out farming intensively growing

corn,oats,wheat,hay,pasture then back to corn-a four

year rotation like our amish neighbors do. that slowly

evolved into into just hay and pasture but still

intensive grazing because we had too many cows.Now I

am learning a different system patterned after the

Maasai in Kenya,it could be called extensive grazing.

Where we had 35 cows on 50 acres I now have just 9

cows on 50 acres.The Maasai seem to have the right

idea. My oldest daughter is studying hyenas at the

Masa mara park in Kenya and she wrote to say that the

one swahili word that all the people in the camp knew

was pole pole " slow down " . When she asked how to say

hurry up,after they all stopped laughing they had to

admit that they had never heard anyone say that word.

The cattle over there are part of a natural ecosystem

that has existed for centuries. the way many farms

around here operate the goal is to replace the natural

world with crops and domestic livestock.This farm has

become a wildlife refuge with a few cows grazing here

and there. And it all works because I can deal

directly with the people who eat what I produce.

michael in mi

>

>

>

>===

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

, can you expand on this for me. I find it very interesting, quite

the contrast to the intensive grazing/salad bar beef idea. When I had 11

cows on 63 acres, I did find, despite weeds and " neglected pastures " they

were in better shape than ever. But being able to afford the extra land is

an issue:-) I would like to hear more about your system, and what kind of

production you get.

I am considering getting chaff hay in for winter also, anyone have any ideas

on that?

www.MajestyFarm.com

" Few Men desire Liberty; most Men only wish for a just master. " Sallust

RE: Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

--- lotzakdz wrote:

> Sure, I could get a good pasture blend to grow in

> this area. IF I eliminated

> the fescue, drilled in the seed, watered it

> (currently we are very dry) and

> kept animals off for the first year and just made

> hay.

>

>

>

> Orchard grass does not survive drought. We planted a

> field of orchard grass

> from a cleared area in 2001, and the next year the

> drought conditions burned

> it dry. By the next spring fescue had returned lush

> and grass WITHOUT

> seeding, and pretty much filled in. This area is

> full of fescue, as is most

> of the southeast, and will revert to fescue in time

> of management lapse and

> land stress. We also have lots of clover to help

> balance it out. BUT I

> personally have neither the time, money, or desire

> to try and eliminate a

> grass that is drought resistant, hardy, grows well,

> and does not require

> extensive management. Orchard grass/fescue combined

> fields can work well,

> but you have to constantly reseed the orchard grass.

> I am not interested in

> fighting that expensive and time consuming battle.

> I use goats for scrub

> and weed maintenance, and do not go for the concepts

> of high intensity

> management in brush control either. Endophyte free

> fescue may be a good

> idea, but then again, you cannot guarantee that it

> will not revert, nor that

> the native fescue will not come through. Being

> careful that the seed heads

> are not at the wrong stage is easy and important

> management. Feeding a

> hi-magnesium mineral , or a fescue balancing mineral

> takes care of spring

> issues. I am not up for fighting a grass that is

> prevalent, works well in

> our weather conditions, and is low maintenance for

> the sake of being a

> purist. We have covered this ground on the list

> before, and each has their

> own opinions, but the fact is trying to fit every

> farm in the same mold is

> quite silly, given the wide range of conditions,

> genetic dispositions, and

> monetary demands.

>

>

> , We started out farming intensively growing

corn,oats,wheat,hay,pasture then back to corn-a four

year rotation like our amish neighbors do. that slowly

evolved into into just hay and pasture but still

intensive grazing because we had too many cows.Now I

am learning a different system patterned after the

Maasai in Kenya,it could be called extensive grazing.

Where we had 35 cows on 50 acres I now have just 9

cows on 50 acres.The Maasai seem to have the right

idea. My oldest daughter is studying hyenas at the

Masa mara park in Kenya and she wrote to say that the

one swahili word that all the people in the camp knew

was pole pole " slow down " . When she asked how to say

hurry up,after they all stopped laughing they had to

admit that they had never heard anyone say that word.

The cattle over there are part of a natural ecosystem

that has existed for centuries. the way many farms

around here operate the goal is to replace the natural

world with crops and domestic livestock.This farm has

become a wildlife refuge with a few cows grazing here

and there. And it all works because I can deal

directly with the people who eat what I produce.

michael in mi

>

>

>

>===

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

--- lotzakdz wrote:

> , can you expand on this for me. I find it

> very interesting, quite

> the contrast to the intensive grazing/salad bar beef

> idea. When I had 11

> cows on 63 acres, I did find, despite weeds and

> " neglected pastures " they

> were in better shape than ever. But being able to

> afford the extra land is

> an issue:-) I would like to hear more about your

> system, and what kind of

> production you get.

>

> I am considering getting chaff hay in for winter

> also, anyone have any ideas

> on that?

>

>

>

>

The cows always have all they can eat even when we

have a dry spell like we are having this month.

> They have access to tree leaves and all kinds of

plants and bushes and they do browse on everything.I

found that they stay in much better condition through

the winter if they have a 3 or 4 month dry period. If

they have some fat on them when the cold weather

comes,its easier for them to stay warm and they keep

up their milk production longer.Most of my cows will

freshen in october or november, a few stragglers will

freshen in late winter or spring.Those are the ones I

can milk through the summer. this year(every year is a

bit different)I have 3 cows to milk once a day all

summer. Summertime I spend a lot of time making really

nice hay. I have small guernsey cows probably

averaging 800 lbs . when they first freshen they give

4 to 5 gallons/day on twice a day milking. By

springtime they are down to 3 gallons a day or if they

are heifers maybe 2 gallons but when they go on

pasture their milk will increase at least 50% .I make

cheese all winter and spring.As the volume of milk

drops at the end of the winter I get more

cheese/gallon of milk so the decrease in milk is no

problem.At the end of june I stop making cheese and

dry up all but a few of the late freshening cows. The

milk in the summers goes to my cow shares people.I

raise all of the calves on milk to start out but then

switch to whey and hay.I feed the bull calves plenty

of whey and they eventually will become an endless

supply of steaks and hamburger. I'll bet land is a

lot more expensive where you live.Luckily for me I

didn't have to buy all of the land I use.Because the

land is mostly wild we rent out the hunting rights for

about 2 times as much as the property taxes. Oh I do

mow the pastures once each summer to keep the plants

from getting too overmature and to keep the

multifloral roses from taking over and it also makes

it easier for the dogs to find the cows.They are too

short to see them when the plants are taller than the

dogs are.

>

>

> What is chaff hay? michael in mi

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

go to www.organicpastures.com and chheck out Mark's

system - unreal - seen it with my own eyes!

--- wrote:

>

>

> --- lotzakdz wrote:

>

> > , can you expand on this for me. I find it

> > very interesting, quite

> > the contrast to the intensive grazing/salad bar

> beef

> > idea. When I had 11

> > cows on 63 acres, I did find, despite weeds and

> > " neglected pastures " they

> > were in better shape than ever. But being able to

> > afford the extra land is

> > an issue:-) I would like to hear more about your

> > system, and what kind of

> > production you get.

> >

> > I am considering getting chaff hay in for winter

> > also, anyone have any ideas

> > on that?

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> The cows always have all they can eat even when

> we

> have a dry spell like we are having this month.

> > They have access to tree leaves and all kinds of

> plants and bushes and they do browse on everything.I

> found that they stay in much better condition

> through

> the winter if they have a 3 or 4 month dry period.

> If

> they have some fat on them when the cold weather

> comes,its easier for them to stay warm and they keep

> up their milk production longer.Most of my cows will

> freshen in october or november, a few stragglers

> will

> freshen in late winter or spring.Those are the ones

> I

> can milk through the summer. this year(every year is

> a

> bit different)I have 3 cows to milk once a day all

> summer. Summertime I spend a lot of time making

> really

> nice hay. I have small guernsey cows probably

> averaging 800 lbs . when they first freshen they

> give

> 4 to 5 gallons/day on twice a day milking. By

> springtime they are down to 3 gallons a day or if

> they

> are heifers maybe 2 gallons but when they go on

> pasture their milk will increase at least 50% .I

> make

> cheese all winter and spring.As the volume of milk

> drops at the end of the winter I get more

> cheese/gallon of milk so the decrease in milk is no

> problem.At the end of june I stop making cheese and

> dry up all but a few of the late freshening cows.

> The

> milk in the summers goes to my cow shares people.I

> raise all of the calves on milk to start out but

> then

> switch to whey and hay.I feed the bull calves plenty

> of whey and they eventually will become an endless

> supply of steaks and hamburger. I'll bet land is a

> lot more expensive where you live.Luckily for me I

> didn't have to buy all of the land I use.Because the

> land is mostly wild we rent out the hunting rights

> for

> about 2 times as much as the property taxes. Oh I

> do

> mow the pastures once each summer to keep the plants

> from getting too overmature and to keep the

> multifloral roses from taking over and it also makes

> it easier for the dogs to find the cows.They are too

> short to see them when the plants are taller than

> the

> dogs are.

> >

> >

> > What is chaff hay? michael in mi

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

I didn't get any info about the catalog but my computer also tends to be wierd at times. : ) Shery

RE: Re: I love raw milk but does it love me?

A good concentrate mix is not just "a concentrated starch source" And not just added protein either.A dairy production animal is also being pushed at different production thanbeef, and unless genetically adapted for production on NOTHING but forage isbeing drained by daily, mostly 2x a day, milking, and may need extracalorie, protein, fat, and mineral and micronutrient, and probiotic sourcesin addition to pasture, EXPECIALLY in areas such as ours that ispredominately fescue. A great drought tolerant and steady source of grass,but not good to allow to develop seed heads (endophyte issues). But fescueis not a highly rated nutritional product.Beeves do just fine. Milkers tend to need a higher nutrition level. Andsupplementing w/ a small amount of well balanced concentrate (NOT just"grains") is akin to providing people who have additional demands (pregnant,lactating, ill) extra nutrient dense foods.I only milk once a day. I select for lower producers that do better withless concentrate. I leave the calves on, thereby reducing calf stress andmama stress. But they still need a bit of supplementation for condition, beit a product such as chaff hay, my special concentrate mix, or root crops.Non-milkers have no need for this. www.MajestyFarm.com"Few Men desire Liberty; most Men only wish for a just master." Sallust