Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

[Guest guest]

I'm not a chemist so I don't know all the details. All I know is alfalfa is good for cattle as long as it is properly dried. If fed wet/green from the field, cattle will bloat and die if they get too much. That's why it's cut and left in the field for a while before they bail it or take it to diarys as green cut (not baled).

People are not the same as cattle and soy is bad for both men and women. Also, I could be wrong, but I think the process of soy is different for cattle then for people. When we eat alfalfa sprouts, it's not the same as cattle eating alfalfa hay. It doesn't even look the same as alfalfa growing in the fields. Alfalfa growing in fields is not thin and whispy looking like the sprouts you see in the stores. I don't even know if its the same seed that is used.

K.C.

Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

So...can anyone answer this...Supposedly the phytoestrogens in soy are dangerous to women....Yet Alfalfa phytoestrogens are just as high as soy....Is there a difference between their phytoestrogens? Why isn't thereclamour over alfalfa-fed raw dairy as there is soy? What am I missing.Sharon in NH *pounding head on desk*PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

KC: the seed for alfalfa sprouts is the same seed as what is sown in the fields, it is just wet sprouted and not ground sprouted so the resulting product is different in appearance!

vona

Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

So...can anyone answer this...Supposedly the phytoestrogens in soy are dangerous to women....Yet Alfalfa phytoestrogens are just as high as soy....Is there a difference between their phytoestrogens? Why isn't thereclamour over alfalfa-fed raw dairy as there is soy? What am I missing.Sharon in NH *pounding head on desk*PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

That's good to know. I didn't know it would look different or have a different appearance when it's wet sprouted. More good stuff to know.

Thanks.

K.C.

Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

So...can anyone answer this...Supposedly the phytoestrogens in soy are dangerous to women....Yet Alfalfa phytoestrogens are just as high as soy....Is there a difference between their phytoestrogens? Why isn't thereclamour over alfalfa-fed raw dairy as there is soy? What am I missing.Sharon in NH *pounding head on desk*PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

> So...can anyone answer this...

>

> Supposedly the phytoestrogens in soy are dangerous to women....

>

> Yet Alfalfa phytoestrogens are just as high as soy....

>

> Is there a difference between their phytoestrogens? Why isn't there

> clamour over alfalfa-fed raw dairy as there is soy? What am I missing.

>

> Sharon in NH *pounding head on desk*

That's a very good point. It may be somewhat overlooked because

most grassfed farms want diversity and so will have little if any

alfalfa in the stand. Alfalfa is very expensive to maintain and can't

take much grazing pressure so dies out or freezes out quickly. Seed

salesmen like it though. Always have to replant.

I have a book from Canada on organic dairy. In it they warn about

the estrogens in alfalfa causing mastitus. Also that the oxalic acid

in it ties up the calcium. Alfalfa is of the brush family, and if

given a choice cows will always graze the grasses and clover first.

I've seen them over and over eat the grassy hay before the alfalfa hay.

It would sure be nice to have honest research from

university/extension that would use the tens of millions of dollars

for good instead of poison chemical or hormone products.

Cheyenne

[Guest guest]

Cheyenne,

I don't know what kind of alfalfa you are getting, but out here, the cows look at grass hay as something different and after a few flakes of that want their alfalfa back. However, if the alfalfa has thick stems and hardly any leaf, they will waste it. That's what they used to give the beef cattle. Feed hay, I think they call it. Now, most of the beef cattle people even want the better hay.

The alfalfa I get is almost all leaf and the stems are very thin. That's what we call dairy quality. No or little blue flowers as once it goes to flower, you lose protein. Everyone around here almost competes in growing great alfalfa, boasting of the high protein levels.

Also, alfalfa fields do not have to be replanted. There are stands of alfalfa in certain areas here (where the water table is high) that have been there for years. The only time they churn up a field is when there is too much grass growing in it. People put the cows out onto the alfalfa fields once it freezes to eat it down for the winter. Then, in spring it comes back with no problems.

I had pasture mix with clover and the cows rarely eat the clover once it gets a bit higher then the grass. I just have to mow it down. Someone also mentioned that grass is better when its tall. But, if I don't keep it at about 1.5 inches, they pass over it for the shorther stuff. I used to worry about bloat because of the clover in the spring, but they just don't seem that interested in it.

K.C.

Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

> So...can anyone answer this...> > Supposedly the phytoestrogens in soy are dangerous to women....> > Yet Alfalfa phytoestrogens are just as high as soy....> > Is there a difference between their phytoestrogens? Why isn't there> clamour over alfalfa-fed raw dairy as there is soy? What am I missing.> > Sharon in NH *pounding head on desk* That's a very good point. It may be somewhat overlooked becausemost grassfed farms want diversity and so will have little if anyalfalfa in the stand. Alfalfa is very expensive to maintain and can'ttake much grazing pressure so dies out or freezes out quickly. Seedsalesmen like it though. Always have to replant. I have a book from Canada on organic dairy. In it they warn aboutthe estrogens in alfalfa causing mastitus. Also that the oxalic acidin it ties up the calcium. Alfalfa is of the brush family, and ifgiven a choice cows will always graze the grasses and clover first.I've seen them over and over eat the grassy hay before the alfalfa hay. It would sure be nice to have honest research fromuniversity/extension that would use the tens of millions of dollarsfor good instead of poison chemical or hormone products.CheyennePLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

KC,

Husband just

read over my shoulder and said, “leafy alfalfa, the kind she’s

talking about is the best for protein”.

Still, the

topic is alfalfa & soy – phytoestrogens. Why all the hubbub about

soy and not feeding that (the reason I keep getting is phytoestrogens), but yet

we can drink milk from “grass fed” (alfalfa) cows and not have the

same concerns???? There’s something wrong with that equation.

Women are

discouraged from eating alfalfa sprouts for the phytoestrogen reason. So why

isn’t grass fed milk carrying the same warning if alfalfa was in the

equation?

Sharon, NH

The alfalfa I get is almost all leaf and the stems are

very thin. That's what we call dairy quality. No or little blue

flowers as once it goes to flower, you lose protein. Everyone around here

almost competes in growing great alfalfa, boasting of the high protein levels.

K.C.

[Guest guest]

I've never heard that alfalfa sprouts are bad for women. However, soy in any form is said to be really bad. I can't find too many protein blocks that don't have some soy in them. I don't believe soy for cattle is bad like they say it is for people. Too many people equate what is bad for us, should be bad for cattle. They have a different system. They break down feed differently and they utilize it differently.

I have never had a problem with milk from cattle that have been fed a small amount of soy. If I get a 30 lb. protein block for two heifers/cows, the amount of soy in it is so minimal, I don't think it affects the milk. The alfalfa would be the same in that they processes this legume different then people and when you milk them out, I think you are only getting the benefit of the protein.

Again, I'm no chemist and I don't know the exact answers to your questions.

However, in the same thinking, not all grasses are good for cattle. And those grasses that are may not be processed in the same way by horses or sheep, etc.

I just don't think you can look at one part of a grain or legume and equate it to people and cattle.

K.C.

RE: Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

KC,

Husband just read over my shoulder and said, “leafy alfalfa, the kind she’s talking about is the best for protein”.

Still, the topic is alfalfa & soy – phytoestrogens. Why all the hubbub about soy and not feeding that (the reason I keep getting is phytoestrogens), but yet we can drink milk from “grass fed” (alfalfa) cows and not have the same concerns???? There’s something wrong with that equation.

Women are discouraged from eating alfalfa sprouts for the phytoestrogen reason. So why isn’t grass fed milk carrying the same warning if alfalfa was in the equation?

Sharon, NH

The alfalfa I get is almost all leaf and the stems are very thin. That's what we call dairy quality. No or little blue flowers as once it goes to flower, you lose protein. Everyone around here almost competes in growing great alfalfa, boasting of the high protein levels.

K.C.

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

KC: I don't know that soy is bad for women. In countries where the population eat lots of soy like Japan, women have less breast cancer and don't seem to have the bad symptoms that come with menopause that are so prevalent in the West. Again it may be how it is processed for commercial uses. The Eastern ways are pretty simple and use fermentation in a lot of the applications. which is different than boiling it in acid and them dousing it with alkalis! JMHO

Vona

RE: Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

KC,

Husband just read over my shoulder and said, “leafy alfalfa, the kind she’s talking about is the best for protein”.

Still, the topic is alfalfa & soy – phytoestrogens. Why all the hubbub about soy and not feeding that (the reason I keep getting is phytoestrogens), but yet we can drink milk from “grass fed” (alfalfa) cows and not have the same concerns???? There’s something wrong with that equation.

Women are discouraged from eating alfalfa sprouts for the phytoestrogen reason. So why isn’t grass fed milk carrying the same warning if alfalfa was in the equation?

Sharon, NH

The alfalfa I get is almost all leaf and the stems are very thin. That's what we call dairy quality. No or little blue flowers as once it goes to flower, you lose protein. Everyone around here almost competes in growing great alfalfa, boasting of the high protein levels.

K.C.

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

Actually, they don't eat lots of soy in Japan. Historically they only ate small amounts of fermented soy.

RE: Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

KC,

Husband just read over my shoulder and said, “leafy alfalfa, the kind she’s talking about is the best for protein”.

Still, the topic is alfalfa & soy – phytoestrogens. Why all the hubbub about soy and not feeding that (the reason I keep getting is phytoestrogens), but yet we can drink milk from “grass fed” (alfalfa) cows and not have the same concerns???? There’s something wrong with that equation.

Women are discouraged from eating alfalfa sprouts for the phytoestrogen reason. So why isn’t grass fed milk carrying the same warning if alfalfa was in the equation?

Sharon, NH

The alfalfa I get is almost all leaf and the stems are very thin. That's what we call dairy quality. No or little blue flowers as once it goes to flower, you lose protein. Everyone around here almost competes in growing great alfalfa, boasting of the high protein levels.

K.C.

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

Ellen I was referring to shou and miso both of which are fermented soy. Tempeh is from Indonesia and that is fermented in a different way.

Vona

RE: Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

KC,

Husband just read over my shoulder and said, “leafy alfalfa, the kind she’s talking about is the best for protein”.

Still, the topic is alfalfa & soy – phytoestrogens. Why all the hubbub about soy and not feeding that (the reason I keep getting is phytoestrogens), but yet we can drink milk from “grass fed” (alfalfa) cows and not have the same concerns???? There’s something wrong with that equation.

Women are discouraged from eating alfalfa sprouts for the phytoestrogen reason. So why isn’t grass fed milk carrying the same warning if alfalfa was in the equation?

Sharon, NH

The alfalfa I get is almost all leaf and the stems are very thin. That's what we call dairy quality. No or little blue flowers as once it goes to flower, you lose protein. Everyone around here almost competes in growing great alfalfa, boasting of the high protein levels.

K.C.

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

I think you have a good point about

different species. The issue I have w/ soy, tho fed to cattle is 2 fold.

The

isoflavones

/Phytoestrogens DO transmit through milk

I do

not believe that a food that MUST be cooked before consuming by cattle (as

in soy) is a good food for them.

www.MajestyFarm.com

Eternal vigilance

is the price of liberty—power is ever stealing from the many to the

few…. The hand entrusted with power becomes … the necessary enemy

of the people. Only by continual oversight can the democrat in office be

prevented from hardening into a despot: only by unintermitted Agitation can a

people be kept sufficiently awake to principle not to let liberty be smothered

in material prosperity. Wendell

From: Tinybabe

Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005

10:49 AM

To: RawDairy

Subject: Re: Re:

Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

I've never heard that

alfalfa sprouts are bad for women. However, soy in any form is said to be

really bad. I can't find too many protein blocks that don't have some soy

in them. I don't believe soy for cattle is bad like they say it is for

people. Too many people equate what is bad for us, should be bad for

cattle. They have a different system. They break down feed

differently and they utilize it differently.

I have never had a

problem with milk from cattle that have been fed a small amount of soy.

If I get a 30 lb. protein block for two heifers/cows, the amount of soy in it

is so minimal, I don't think it affects the milk. The alfalfa would be

the same in that they processes this legume different then people and when you

milk them out, I think you are only getting the benefit of the protein.

Again, I'm no chemist and

I don't know the exact answers to your questions.

However, in the same

thinking, not all grasses are good for cattle. And those grasses that are

may not be processed in the same way by horses or sheep, etc.

I just don't think you

can look at one part of a grain or legume and equate it to people and cattle.

K.C.

RE:

Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

KC,

Husband just read over my shoulder and said, “leafy alfalfa,

the kind she’s talking about is the best for protein”.

Still, the topic is alfalfa & soy –

phytoestrogens. Why all the hubbub about soy and not feeding that (the

reason I keep getting is phytoestrogens), but yet we can drink milk from “grass

fed” (alfalfa) cows and not have the same concerns????

There’s something wrong with that equation.

Women are discouraged from eating alfalfa sprouts for the

phytoestrogen reason. So why isn’t grass fed milk

carrying the same warning if alfalfa was in the equation?

Sharon, NH

The alfalfa I get is

almost all leaf and the stems are very thin. That's what we call dairy

quality. No or little blue flowers as once it goes to flower, you lose

protein. Everyone around here almost competes in growing great alfalfa,

boasting of the high protein levels.

K.C.

·

PLEASE

BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

Archive search: http://onibasu.com

PLEASE BE

KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of

information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

Sharon, here's the Groh reference I referred to:

http://www.realmilk.com/soy.html

SOY MEAL FOR COWS

by Trauger Groh,

Biodynamic Farmer,

Author and Lecturer

I have followed for many years the sickening effect of soy on

ruminants. Cows that formerly could easily reach the age of 15 years

and have 12 calves have on average now less than three calves and

reach hardly the age of six. One main reason is the high percentage

of soy in the rations. It works into the buildup of ammonia in the

rumen. This affects negatively the liver and then showsup in

mastitis and sterility. Off they go to the butcher. Only there can a

vet identify the defective livers. The soybean, bringing about high

milk yields in the first two lactations, is the curse of our cattle

herds. And the milk achieved through it is not health promoting

either. . . If awake consumers, environmentalists, nutritionists and

farmers do not work concretely together in the future there will not

be any healthy farms nor healthy foods.

> I think you have a good point about different species. The issue I

have w/

> soy, tho fed to cattle is 2 fold.

>

>

>

> 1. The isoflavones /Phytoestrogens DO transmit through milk

> 2. I do not believe that a food that MUST be cooked before

consuming by

> cattle (as in soy) is a good food for them.

>

>

>

>

> www.MajestyFarm.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Still, the topic is alfalfa & soy - phytoestrogens. Why all the hubbub

> about soy and not feeding that (the reason I keep getting is

> phytoestrogens), but yet we can drink milk from " grass fed "

(alfalfa) cows

> and not have the same concerns???? There's something wrong with that

> equation.

> Women are discouraged from eating alfalfa sprouts for the phytoestrogen

> reason. So why isn't grass fed milk carrying the same warning if

alfalfa

> was in the equation?

> Sharon, NH

I found the book. It's called Treating Mastitis Without

Antibiotics. Under factors contributing to, it says " Legumes,

particularily alfalfa, contain estrogenic substances whose

concentration varies depending on plant maturity. Turning legumes into

silage does not reduce their estrogenic properties. Through a

phisiological mechanism, that is still not well understood, these

external estrogenic substances (that is, they are not produced by the

cow herself) tend to foster mastitis. Several studies indicate that

alfalfa added to the rations of cows with chronic mastitis exacerbates

the infection. What is important is not to feed silage with high

legume content to heifers. This estrogenic intake encourages premature

development of the udder and increases the incidence of environmental

mastitis. "

The estrogens will obviously end up in the milk as it is a source

for the animal to get rid of " toxins " . For example, the milk can be

checked for milk urea nitrogen, MUN in dairy circles. This problem

comes from feeding too much protein. The excess is excreted through

the milk. Protein (which is actually nitrogen) is supposedly digested

in the digestive tract, but it has been found to end up in the milk.

Also, all poisons end up in the milk such as, antibiotics, pesticides,

hormones, etc..

I have a neighbor that lived in Japan for 1 year. He said they do

NOT eat very much soy. He also said that the soybean they do eat is an

old variety that has no resemblence to the commercial bean we grow for

bushels in America. Plus, they aren't grown laced with poisons as our

beans are, and they only eat fermented beans.

As for breast cancer, most farm chemicals are estrogen mimicking. All

beef implants are estrogen based. Birth control pills are sure to be

involved. If the legume is a culprit think of the estrogen in meat and

milk from the almost sole use of alfalfa in hay production. Those poor

animals are so overdosed. The hormones are even showing up in the

water from all that passes through people and animals.

Cheyenne

[Guest guest]

: that is horrible!!! Maybe soy was never meant to be eaten by cows!!!

Poor babies!

Vona

Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

>

>

> Sharon, here's the Groh reference I referred to:

>

> http://www.realmilk.com/soy.html

>

> SOY MEAL FOR COWS

> by Trauger Groh,

> Biodynamic Farmer,

> Author and Lecturer

>

> I have followed for many years the sickening effect of soy on

> ruminants. Cows that formerly could easily reach the age of 15 years

> and have 12 calves have on average now less than three calves and

> reach hardly the age of six. One main reason is the high percentage

> of soy in the rations. It works into the buildup of ammonia in the

> rumen. This affects negatively the liver and then showsup in

> mastitis and sterility. Off they go to the butcher. Only there can a

> vet identify the defective livers. The soybean, bringing about high

> milk yields in the first two lactations, is the curse of our cattle

> herds. And the milk achieved through it is not health promoting

> either. . . If awake consumers, environmentalists, nutritionists and

> farmers do not work concretely together in the future there will not

> be any healthy farms nor healthy foods.

>

>

>

>

>

>> I think you have a good point about different species. The issue I

> have w/

>> soy, tho fed to cattle is 2 fold.

>>

>>

>>

>> 1. The isoflavones /Phytoestrogens DO transmit through milk

>> 2. I do not believe that a food that MUST be cooked before

> consuming by

>> cattle (as in soy) is a good food for them.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> www.MajestyFarm.com

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

> Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

>

> Archive search: http://onibasu.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Here's a good one on CSA farming/nutrition:

http://www.westonaprice.org/farming/splendor.html

doesn't mention alfalfa, but it does mention legumes...isn't alfalfa a

legume?

-Blair

[Guest guest]

KC –

This

is but one example of some of the problems with raw alfalfa sprouts for women

or men or children…….taken from http://www.mercola.com/2004/may/1/raw_food_diets.htm

“Of

course, raw foods are not without their negatives. Raw foods have a higher

percentage of bacteria and parasites. Canavanine, an amino acid in raw alfalfa

sprouts not present in the mature plants, is an antinutrient factor that has

been shown to inhibit the immune system and contribute to inflammatory

arthritis and lupus, according to Sally Fallon in Nourishing Traditions,

a reason why traditional cultures have avoided eating alfalfa in the sprout

stage. Many vegetables, unless juiced, are harder to digest when raw. The phytates

or anti-factors in grains also bind up minerals, making them unavailable to the

human body, a probable reason why most grain has traditionally been fermented

or sprouted rather than eaten raw or simply ground into flour…..”

Sharon,

NH

Re: Re:

Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

I've never heard that alfalfa sprouts are bad for

women.

[Guest guest]

You haven't read what I have about soy. They have proven that in places like Japan, they consume WAY less soy then in this country.

If I can find the links people have sent me on soy or if others can post them again, you will see how really bad it is for you.

My sister has been a veggie for more years than you and she was forced to eat either fish or chicken because she has become so intolerant to so many things. Her allergies are horrible, she has chronic fatigue and it's all because of soy. I don't know what she's going to do, but you better read up on it before your health suffers too much.

K.C.

RE: Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

KC,

Husband just read over my shoulder and said, “leafy alfalfa, the kind she’s talking about is the best for protein”.

Still, the topic is alfalfa & soy – phytoestrogens. Why all the hubbub about soy and not feeding that (the reason I keep getting is phytoestrogens), but yet we can drink milk from “grass fed” (alfalfa) cows and not have the same concerns???? There’s something wrong with that equation.

Women are discouraged from eating alfalfa sprouts for the phytoestrogen reason. So why isn’t grass fed milk carrying the same warning if alfalfa was in the equation?

Sharon, NH

The alfalfa I get is almost all leaf and the stems are very thin. That's what we call dairy quality. No or little blue flowers as once it goes to flower, you lose protein. Everyone around here almost competes in growing great alfalfa, boasting of the high protein levels.

K.C.

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

Well, KC, you are right I haven't read what you have!!! I am sure it is true! I was tested to be allergic to soy but I don't know if I am to fermented soy. I will not be eating any flesh foods as my reasons are spiritual and will have to find ways to get the proteins I need from vegetative live and milk (raw) products! there are so much that isn't told to the general public that it is frightening!!!

Vona

RE: Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

KC,

Husband just read over my shoulder and said, “leafy alfalfa, the kind she’s talking about is the best for protein”.

Still, the topic is alfalfa & soy – phytoestrogens. Why all the hubbub about soy and not feeding that (the reason I keep getting is phytoestrogens), but yet we can drink milk from “grass fed” (alfalfa) cows and not have the same concerns???? There’s something wrong with that equation.

Women are discouraged from eating alfalfa sprouts for the phytoestrogen reason. So why isn’t grass fed milk carrying the same warning if alfalfa was in the equation?

Sharon, NH

The alfalfa I get is almost all leaf and the stems are very thin. That's what we call dairy quality. No or little blue flowers as once it goes to flower, you lose protein. Everyone around here almost competes in growing great alfalfa, boasting of the high protein levels.

K.C.

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

Well, like I said, if it is in a protein block, that's for 2 of them and there's not enough to worry about. Plus, I don't feed any of those milk feeds like Milk Plus or Calf Manna.

K.C.

RE: Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

KC,

Husband just read over my shoulder and said, “leafy alfalfa, the kind she’s talking about is the best for protein”.

Still, the topic is alfalfa & soy – phytoestrogens. Why all the hubbub about soy and not feeding that (the reason I keep getting is phytoestrogens), but yet we can drink milk from “grass fed” (alfalfa) cows and not have the same concerns???? There’s something wrong with that equation.

Women are discouraged from eating alfalfa sprouts for the phytoestrogen reason. So why isn’t grass fed milk carrying the same warning if alfalfa was in the equation?

Sharon, NH

The alfalfa I get is almost all leaf and the stems are very thin. That's what we call dairy quality. No or little blue flowers as once it goes to flower, you lose protein. Everyone around here almost competes in growing great alfalfa, boasting of the high protein levels.

K.C.

·

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

I have been feeding alfalfa hay to all my cattle for years and not one has had mastitis because of it. My girls get rich alfalfa hay every day of their lives and Margie hasn't had any mastitis with her three calves.

As far as silage, I don't know, but as far as hay goes, alfalfa does not cause mastitis. Sounds to me like those who insisted that only grass fed is best is pushing this idea out there.

Sorry, but I'm not buying this one at all. There are books and books and more books and everyone has an opinion. I go by what really works, how well it works and the fact that my girls and even Sammy, when he was here, were in peak condition with no health problems at all. I would say if the alfalfa is sprayed, you would have a problem. Our hay is not sprayed, so no problem.

K.C.

Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

> Still, the topic is alfalfa & soy - phytoestrogens. Why all the hubbub> about soy and not feeding that (the reason I keep getting is> phytoestrogens), but yet we can drink milk from "grass fed"(alfalfa) cows> and not have the same concerns???? There's something wrong with that> equation.> Women are discouraged from eating alfalfa sprouts for the phytoestrogen> reason. So why isn't grass fed milk carrying the same warning ifalfalfa> was in the equation? > Sharon, NH I found the book. It's called Treating Mastitis WithoutAntibiotics. Under factors contributing to, it says " Legumes,particularily alfalfa, contain estrogenic substances whoseconcentration varies depending on plant maturity. Turning legumes intosilage does not reduce their estrogenic properties. Through aphisiological mechanism, that is still not well understood, theseexternal estrogenic substances (that is, they are not produced by thecow herself) tend to foster mastitis. Several studies indicate thatalfalfa added to the rations of cows with chronic mastitis exacerbatesthe infection. What is important is not to feed silage with highlegume content to heifers. This estrogenic intake encourages prematuredevelopment of the udder and increases the incidence of environmentalmastitis." The estrogens will obviously end up in the milk as it is a sourcefor the animal to get rid of "toxins". For example, the milk can bechecked for milk urea nitrogen, MUN in dairy circles. This problemcomes from feeding too much protein. The excess is excreted throughthe milk. Protein (which is actually nitrogen) is supposedly digestedin the digestive tract, but it has been found to end up in the milk.Also, all poisons end up in the milk such as, antibiotics, pesticides,hormones, etc.. I have a neighbor that lived in Japan for 1 year. He said they doNOT eat very much soy. He also said that the soybean they do eat is anold variety that has no resemblence to the commercial bean we grow forbushels in America. Plus, they aren't grown laced with poisons as ourbeans are, and they only eat fermented beans.As for breast cancer, most farm chemicals are estrogen mimicking. Allbeef implants are estrogen based. Birth control pills are sure to beinvolved. If the legume is a culprit think of the estrogen in meat andmilk from the almost sole use of alfalfa in hay production. Those pooranimals are so overdosed. The hormones are even showing up in thewater from all that passes through people and animals.CheyennePLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

Well, since I don't eat sprouts except for bean sprouts in my Thai cooking, I won't start now.

K.C.

RE: Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

KC –

This is but one example of some of the problems with raw alfalfa sprouts for women or men or children…….taken from http://www.mercola.com/2004/may/1/raw_food_diets.htm

“Of course, raw foods are not without their negatives. Raw foods have a higher percentage of bacteria and parasites. Canavanine, an amino acid in raw alfalfa sprouts not present in the mature plants, is an antinutrient factor that has been shown to inhibit the immune system and contribute to inflammatory arthritis and lupus, according to Sally Fallon in Nourishing Traditions, a reason why traditional cultures have avoided eating alfalfa in the sprout stage. Many vegetables, unless juiced, are harder to digest when raw. The phytates or anti-factors in grains also bind up minerals, making them unavailable to the human body, a probable reason why most grain has traditionally been fermented or sprouted rather than eaten raw or simply ground into flour…..”

Sharon, NH

-----Original Message-----From: Tinybabe Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 1:49 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

I've never heard that alfalfa sprouts are bad for women. PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

Don't get me wrong. I didn't mean you have to eat meat or fish.

It's just that my sister needed protein from another source. She goes to a naturopath doctor so he isn't in favor of meat either. But, she drinks soy milk and eats tofu and all kinds of soy. Now she knows it could be the cause for her allergies and chronic fatigue and auto-immune problems. Don't know if she will do anything about it, but it all makes sense since no one else in the family has the problems she does. She's the only one that eats that much soy. We don't eat hardly any of it except for shoyu or soy sauce.

K.C.

RE: Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

KC,

Husband just read over my shoulder and said, “leafy alfalfa, the kind she’s talking about is the best for protein”.

Still, the topic is alfalfa & soy – phytoestrogens. Why all the hubbub about soy and not feeding that (the reason I keep getting is phytoestrogens), but yet we can drink milk from “grass fed” (alfalfa) cows and not have the same concerns???? There’s something wrong with that equation.

Women are discouraged from eating alfalfa sprouts for the phytoestrogen reason. So why isn’t grass fed milk carrying the same warning if alfalfa was in the equation?

Sharon, NH

The alfalfa I get is almost all leaf and the stems are very thin. That's what we call dairy quality. No or little blue flowers as once it goes to flower, you lose protein. Everyone around here almost competes in growing great alfalfa, boasting of the high protein levels.

K.C.

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/Archive search: http://onibasu.com

[Guest guest]

Add to that at

least 2 generations (if not more) of people who are removed from knowing what

real food is or how to prepare it? We’ve got a mess.

Sharon, NH

We are not to the point that the general population,

now 2 generations removed from production

agriculture

understands even the vaguest things about food

production. Commodity prices are so low that a

farmer

must use all the technology available to him in

order

to make the return he needs to cover his

indebtedness

and lifestyle needs income. And his family

deserves as

nice a life style as his computer science, Doctor,

lawyer neighbors do.

Bill Dunlap

[Guest guest]

> Cheyenne,

> There is much in the way of sustainable research going

> on at the Land Grant Universities.

They finally get around to doing a little research after 50 years

of pushing stupidity to the farmer. Yes I'll give them a little

credit, but the tiny amount going to good causes doesn't even register

on the radar compared to all the evil poisons and bondage they're

pushing yet.

> The problem is that no company will benefit from a

> more environmental approach. And the general public,

> in the form of legislature only sees full grocery

> shelves, farmers in air conditioned tractors and huge

> farm payments, therefore the chance to get more public

> money for more environmental research is nearly

> impossible.

I agree, but lets take away the farm payments all together which

are just subsidy payments to buy Monsanto's garbage. The efficient

will truly shine. That is the grass based farm. There is no need or

place for confinement ag. Nor any need to till the prairies for corn

and soy. Put the animals back out to pasture where they belong and so

ends the need for the waste of taxpayer dollars. Small pasture farms

can flourish. The point is the University system has been incompetent

for so long and is so far out of the loop we don't need it. The

organic/pasture movement already has a network of farmers and

consultants that are figuring it out and there is so much knowledge

ready for use, we don't need the university reinventing the wheel.

Check out the ACRES book catalog.

> We are not to the point that the general population,

> now 2 generations removed from production agriculture

> understands even the vaguest things about food

> production. Commodity prices are so low that a farmer

> must use all the technology available to him in order

> to make the return he needs to cover his indebtedness

> and lifestyle needs income. And his family deserves as

> nice a life style as his computer science, Doctor,

> lawyer neighbors do.

> Bill Dunlap

I realize that, but why are the farmers growing commodities that

offer such dismal returns? The farmer has no excuse in this day of so

much info to keep doing what doesn't work. There is tremendous profit

in putting animals on grass. Does that mean we shouldn't have parity

prices for milk which would be about $35 per hundred? Absolutely not.

It is how the corporations got the farmers into bondage in the first

place with help from their gov. cronies. I know farms that didn't buy

into the B.S. and they remained profitable. The potential is much

greater today with things such as fencing, swing parlors, organic,

etc..

There is no need for all the technology. That's only so they don't

have to change/think. I am a farmer so I will pick on them. Not only

that, but a very profitable farmer. We enjoy the income of our upscale

neighbors. We don't live quite like them (boats,cars,etc.) because we

are more interested in paying off debt. We have no off farm income

and started 12 years ago with virtually nothing, so I like to shout

our success from the housetops. Why? Because This simple system can be

duplicated over and over and provide a decent living for all who want

it. It is especially important to the small farms and the wanna be

small farms. It does take a LOT of commitment and hard work. It is almost

impossible to start from scratch following the industrial ag paradigm,

but very possible with the simple grass farm. We do give all glory to

God and feel He has allowed the immense blessings. My goal in life is to

see millions of small profitable farms once again, the last drop of

poison eliminated, and the last suffering animal released from

confinement. And of course, only raw milk.

Cheyenne

[Guest guest]

Cheyenne; I do hope you are right and that this dream of small pasture

farms really comes into being! Big business has no place directing the

lives and welfare of our farmers!! Yeah for people lie you!

Vona

Re: Alfalfa & Soy - Phytoestrogens

>

>

>

>> Cheyenne,

>> There is much in the way of sustainable research going

>> on at the Land Grant Universities.

>

> They finally get around to doing a little research after 50 years

> of pushing stupidity to the farmer. Yes I'll give them a little

> credit, but the tiny amount going to good causes doesn't even register

> on the radar compared to all the evil poisons and bondage they're

> pushing yet.

>

>> The problem is that no company will benefit from a

>> more environmental approach. And the general public,

>> in the form of legislature only sees full grocery

>> shelves, farmers in air conditioned tractors and huge

>> farm payments, therefore the chance to get more public

>> money for more environmental research is nearly

>> impossible.

>

>

> I agree, but lets take away the farm payments all together which

> are just subsidy payments to buy Monsanto's garbage. The efficient

> will truly shine. That is the grass based farm. There is no need or

> place for confinement ag. Nor any need to till the prairies for corn

> and soy. Put the animals back out to pasture where they belong and so

> ends the need for the waste of taxpayer dollars. Small pasture farms

> can flourish. The point is the University system has been incompetent

> for so long and is so far out of the loop we don't need it. The

> organic/pasture movement already has a network of farmers and

> consultants that are figuring it out and there is so much knowledge

> ready for use, we don't need the university reinventing the wheel.

> Check out the ACRES book catalog.

>

>

>

>> We are not to the point that the general population,

>> now 2 generations removed from production agriculture

>> understands even the vaguest things about food

>> production. Commodity prices are so low that a farmer

>> must use all the technology available to him in order

>> to make the return he needs to cover his indebtedness

>> and lifestyle needs income. And his family deserves as

>> nice a life style as his computer science, Doctor,

>> lawyer neighbors do.

>> Bill Dunlap

>

> I realize that, but why are the farmers growing commodities that

> offer such dismal returns? The farmer has no excuse in this day of so

> much info to keep doing what doesn't work. There is tremendous profit

> in putting animals on grass. Does that mean we shouldn't have parity

> prices for milk which would be about $35 per hundred? Absolutely not.

> It is how the corporations got the farmers into bondage in the first

> place with help from their gov. cronies. I know farms that didn't buy

> into the B.S. and they remained profitable. The potential is much

> greater today with things such as fencing, swing parlors, organic,

> etc..

>

> There is no need for all the technology. That's only so they don't

> have to change/think. I am a farmer so I will pick on them. Not only

> that, but a very profitable farmer. We enjoy the income of our upscale

> neighbors. We don't live quite like them (boats,cars,etc.) because we

> are more interested in paying off debt. We have no off farm income

> and started 12 years ago with virtually nothing, so I like to shout

> our success from the housetops. Why? Because This simple system can be

> duplicated over and over and provide a decent living for all who want

> it. It is especially important to the small farms and the wanna be

> small farms. It does take a LOT of commitment and hard work. It is almost

> impossible to start from scratch following the industrial ag paradigm,

> but very possible with the simple grass farm. We do give all glory to

> God and feel He has allowed the immense blessings. My goal in life is to

> see millions of small profitable farms once again, the last drop of

> poison eliminated, and the last suffering animal released from

> confinement. And of course, only raw milk.

>

>

> Cheyenne

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

> Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

>

> Archive search: http://onibasu.com

>

>

>