Re: jokes that are hurtful to a particular group

May 30, 2009

Such jokes are like backhanded slaps to people, but one has to admit that they

have basis for their existence. Individuals or groups of people that are NOT

often the target of such humor are usually ones that give people no reason to

attack them.

Look at the number of " dumb blonde " jokes versus " dumb brunette " jokes. The

author of the article says society reveres blondes for their beauty. One would

think this gives people all the more reason to attack brunettes based on their

looks. Yet that seldom happens.

Why?

It's because fewer brunettes conduct themselves with the characteristics people

find so odious in blondes. That's why.

First of all, no one ought to be telling derogatory jokes about a person or

about a group of people.

But secondly, if people want to avoid having bad things said about them, then

they ought to conduct themselves in a manner that leaves them closed to ridicule

and attack.

Administrator

May 30, 2009

<SNIP>

> But secondly, if people want to avoid having bad things said about them, then

they ought to conduct themselves in a manner that leaves them closed to ridicule

and attack.

>

> Administrator

>

The only people that are left closed to ridicule and attack are perfect clones

of those around them that may ridicule and attack them, and in this definition,

I'm talking about clones not only in the physical makeup, but also all their

actions and thoughts. Of course, not even identical twins are that identical in

practice, even to each other: my point is that there will always be those that

ridicule and attack others, and no reason needs to exist beyond that of them

feeling like it.

May 30, 2009

" The only people that are left closed to ridicule and attack are perfect clones

of those around them that may ridicule and attack them, and in this definition,

I'm talking about clones not only in the physical makeup, but also all their

actions and thoughts. Of course, not even identical twins are that identical in

practice, even to each other: my point is that there will always be those that

ridicule and attack others, and no reason needs to exist beyond that of them

feeling like it. "

Good points as usual. But I still think if a person leads a decent and moral

life, they will not suffer as much ridicule as those who don't, and the insults

decent and moral people DO endure are kinds which make the insult-ers look worse

than the instulted.

Take a look at Amish people. For the longest time, there was only one criticsm

against them, and that was that they would not fight for their country. People

in the past decade or so have implied that there is incest going on, or physical

abuse. But there has not been much of that.

For years, the Amish have been able to exist in their own communities living

according to their own values and morals, and they have survived - and without

all the modern conveniences and excesses we have.

If they can do it, so can the rest of society, and they do not even have to hold

Amish morals or ideals to do it. But most of society is a sort of rabble, and so

that will not and cannot happen.

Administrator

May 31, 2009

My first reply; (which shows my own prejudice against extroverts)1. maybe the dumb blonde jokes are the result of envy, from those who may not be as popular but want to be.2. a cliche 'blonde's have more fun'To a social person, 'fun' involves other people, hence the implication that blondes are having fun socially, rather than on their own.My thoughts link the concepts social, extrovert, life of the party, seeks attention from others, DEMANDS attention from others, social butterfly, butterflies flit around, frivolus but pretty, short attantion span, annoying at times, 3. my own pejudice against extroverts results from the fact that most of those who caused me angst by trying to co-erce me to be more social have been extroverts.renaissanzelady"My cat Rusty is a servant of

the Living God."(adapted from a poem by Smart)From: environmental1st2003 <no_reply >Subject: Re: jokes that are hurtful to a particular groupTo: FAMSecretSociety Received: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 10:51 AM

Such jokes are like backhanded slaps to people, but one has to admit that they have basis for their existence. Individuals or groups of people that are NOT often the target of such humor are usually ones that give people no reason to attack them.

Look at the number of "dumb blonde" jokes versus "dumb brunette" jokes. The author of the article says society reveres blondes for their beauty. One would think this gives people all the more reason to attack brunettes based on their looks. Yet that seldom happens.

Why?

It's because fewer brunettes conduct themselves with the characteristics people find so odious in blondes. That's why.

First of all, no one ought to be telling derogatory jokes about a person or about a group of people.

But secondly, if people want to avoid having bad things said about them, then they ought to conduct themselves in a manner that leaves them closed to ridicule and attack.

Administrator

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May 31, 2009

" 3. my own pejudice against extroverts results from the fact that most of those

who caused me angst by trying to co-erce me to be more social have been

extroverts. "

And this may be why derogatory jokes are a " good " thing sometimes, because when

people go around thinking they are perfect, they may have no idea how much of an

imposition they are on others. When people are taken down a notch, they may

begin to realize that perhaps they have done something bad to another.

Administrator

May 31, 2009

wrote, excerpted;But secondly, if people want to avoid having bad things said about

them, then they ought to conduct themselves in a manner that leaves

them closed to ridicule and attack.my comment;I agree with this regarding individuals, BUT prejudice can affect a group of people, some of whom do not act in accordance with the prevailing negative view. Some one cannot help being born in a particular province. They should not have to keep secret their origins to avoid having some bigot stereotype them. (a former Calagry mayor refered to workers from eastern Canada as 'bums and scum')If a natural blonde has to dye her hair to avoid being stereotyped, I think this would be unfortunate. People may joke about those who 'stand out' in some way, those who are different. Yes, if a blonde acts dumb to flatter some rich man, or to be like the class clown, then she as an individual deserves ridicule. BUT not all blondes are dumb. If a woman dyes her hair blonde to fit in socially,

maybe she is to be pitied rather than ridiculed, if she values social approval to that extent, and uses superficial means to gain approval from superficial people. Maybe those who are weak are more to be pitied than to be scorned. Or does the 'law of the jungle' apply, only the strong shall survive?renaissanzelady"My cat Rusty is a servant of the Living God."(adapted from a poem by Smart)

Such jokes are like backhanded slaps to people, but one has to admit that they have basis for their existence. Individuals or groups of people that are NOT often the target of such humor are usually ones that give people no reason to attack them.

Look at the number of "dumb blonde" jokes versus "dumb brunette" jokes. The author of the article says society reveres blondes for their beauty. One would think this gives people all the more reason to attack brunettes based on their looks. Yet that seldom happens.

Why?

It's because fewer brunettes conduct themselves with the characteristics people find so odious in blondes. That's why.

First of all, no one ought to be telling derogatory jokes about a person or about a group of people.

But secondly, if people want to avoid having bad things said about them, then they ought to conduct themselves in a manner that leaves them closed to ridicule and attack.

Administrator

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May 31, 2009

It can be just the minority that behaves in the prejudicial fashion to taint them all.

When I was in military school, they told us to always mind our manners and keep our uniforms straight when we were out in public. The reason was that if civilians saw one of us acting badly or dressed sloppily, it wouldn't matter if there were 30 other cadets there who were doing right, they would only remember the one going wrong.

In the same vein, all it takes is one person of your given ethnic group to live up to the stereotype to taint countless others.

Regarding earlier comments:

I think jokes can also be a kind of bullying. Jokes or snide comments can be used to put a person down and give the joke teller a sense of superiority over the target.

Similarly, they can be used as a form of social bonding. Telling any kind of joke and getting people to laugh is a kind of acceptance. Telling a hurtful joke and getting laughs likewise gives acceptance not only socially but of one's beliefs, since presumably one wouldn't tell a racist joke if they didn't have something against the target.

In a message dated 5/31/2009 2:45:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply writes:

As a group, if the majority of the individuals within that group act in accordance with the prevaling "prejudicial" statements and/or derogatory jokes, then shouldn't the minority tell the majority WHY it is the prejudice and the derogatory jokes exist? Obama Urges Homeowners to Refi! $133K Mortgage for $679/Mo CALCULATE NEW PAYMENT

May 31, 2009

wrote, excerpted;

"But secondly, if people want to avoid having bad things said about them, then they ought to conduct themselves in a manner that leaves them closed to ridicule and attack."

RL said:

"I agree with this regarding individuals, BUT prejudice can affect a group of people, some of whom do not act in accordance with the prevailing negative view."

replies:

Of course this is true. But let me point something out to you...

As a group, if the majority of the individuals within that group act in accordance with the prevaling "prejudicial" statements and/or derogatory jokes, then shouldn't the minority tell the majority WHY it is the prejudice and the derogatory jokes exist?

I can provide an example of this. In the melting pot that is the US, Irish, Hispanics, East Indians, Arabs, Greeks, Italians, Russians, Czecks, Poles, Serbs, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc, have all come from overseas and moved up the economic ladder. Within a generation or two, these minorities have moved into suburbia and have well paying jobs. They raise families where kids go to college.

Let's remember that the Japanese were interned in camps during world war two, and now the US buys most of their cars from them. Ask yourself how in 65 years or so, these people, who were once thought merciless killers are now one of the most revered and respected minorities in the US.

African Americans, by contrast, perform worse in school than any and every other minority in the US and the crime rates among blacks is higher than any other minority.

When African American comedian Bill Cosby went on the road and told other African Americans that they needed to get it together or they would never catch up, he was jeered by those African Americans he spoke to and his television career is ended for that reason. African Americans have come to hate him. They believe that he has "turned white."

I saw some of the speeches he was giving, and in one of them, if I am not mistaken, he told a racist joke:

Q: "What do you do to stop two black people fighting?"

A: "Throw them a basketball."

He said there was truth in that joke because what do you most often see black people doing when you drive through the ghetto? Playing basketball. He said you don't see them picking up trash off the streets. He said you don't see them fixing broken windows. He said you don't see them erasing grafitti from the walls. He said you don't see them discouraging their neighbors from barbequing in their bathtubs in high rise tenements. All you see them doing is playing basketball.

Now is that joke fair to all of the lower class, middle class, and upper class, law abiding, moral upholding African American .citizens?

Certainly not. But then why aren't all these lower class, middle class, and upper class, law abiding, moral upholding African American citizens working harder -like Bill Cosby is- to motivate the segment of their population that causes the derogatory jokes to do better?

I don't know about you, but in my neighborhood, if someone doesn;t keep their yard up, you either offer to help them clean it, or you call the city's appearance commision, and they go over and fine the neighbor and make him/her clean up his yard.

We report crimes, no matter what the potential consequence is.

If we find out a neighbor is growing pot plants in their basements, for example, we turn them in. My neighborhood was ethnically mixed. We had Italians, Irish, Japanese, Filipinos, English, Germans, and Americans living on one street. Catholics and Protestants and Bhuddists. We all got along, and the neighborhood was clean and crime free.

I don't see why all neighborhoods can't be that way, even if the people who live there are dirt poor

RL said:

"Some one cannot help being born in a particular province. They should not have to keep secret their origins to avoid having some bigot stereotype them. (a former Calagry mayor refered to workers from eastern Canada as 'bums and scum')"

says:

No one can help where they are born obviously, nor can they help the circumstances they are born into. But if they are born intact, and without mental or physical incapacity, nothing prevents them from tearing off their scarlet letters and putting on a red badge of courage.

RL says:

"If a natural blonde has to dye her hair to avoid being stereotyped, I think this would be unfortunate.

<snip>

"Yes, if a blonde acts dumb to flatter some rich man, or to be like the class clown, then she as an individual deserves ridicule. BUT not all blondes are dumb."

says:

Certainly not all blondes are dumb. MOST of them aren't dumb. Yet in the 40 years of my existence, I have never heard one blonde haired woman say to another blonde haired woman "stop acting stupid". You make us all look bad.

What is it with today's society that no one can try to set another straight?

RL said:

"If a woman dyes her hair blonde to fit in socially, maybe she is to be pitied rather than ridiculed, if she values social approval to that extent, and uses superficial means to gain approval from superficial people. Maybe those who are weak are more to be pitied than to be scorned. Or does the 'law of the jungle' apply, only the strong shall survive?"

For those of us who believe in God, we know that God determnines WHEN we die, but for the most part, unless He interferes, WE are the ones that determine how we live.

In terms of evolution, nature's law has always been that only the fittest shall survive. Generally, the more intelligent the breed of animal, the craftier measure it will take to beat nature.

A popular archtype in literature is man versus nature. We see this in the movies also. In grapes of wrath, a family fights against drout. There have been countless movies where men battle bears, wolves, etc. Also hurricanes, floods, tornados.

Then of course there have been studies...studies which show that the apes who make the most noise generally lead the troop unless a more intelligent ape can overthrow them. Less intelligent apes survive by either trading food, or by lopsided sharing, in which they share a lot at some point in the hopes that they may get a lot at some later point.

Humans tend to use sex appeal or just act stupid and helpless instead of trying to fend for themselves. The exception to this rule are those who truly are helpless or unintelligent and who really do need help.

I agree that derogatory jokes are wrong, but I still feel they have some basis of truth in them, or else they would not be told. My heritage is primarily German, English, Swedish, Irish and Russian and there are plenty of jokes out there as well. I don't take offense to any of them. I figure somewhere in history, my ancestors earned the scarlet letters they carried and do carry. And I also figure that we've earned some red badges of courage also.

I blame THEM for any sterotypical jokes I may receive about my "kraut" heritage, for example. But I've lived my life in a different way, and that is all that matters to me, even if no one else knows it. People could call me a kraut all they want and I would not care.

Administrator

May 31, 2009

wrote; excerpted;For years, the Amish have been able to exist in their own communities

living according to their own values and morals, and they have survived

- and without all the modern conveniences and excesses we have.my comments;In our area, there are a lot of Hutterite Colonies. There is some prejudice against the Hutterites, for economic reasons. There have been allegations of incest, etc, there have been a few court cases. My husband has always enjoyed working with the Hutterite people, in the past when he was a Grain Buyer, and now when he is at a non-profit agency providing a public service.Our family has become friends with some Hutterites and their extended family.They are very aware of the outside world and different issues, they are not 'stupid' like some outsiders think. There are restrictions on how involved they are allowed to be with the outside world. They are individuals like other people, even though they live communally.I think the vast majority want to live peacefuly to pursue their way of

life. wrote, excerpted: But most of society is a sort of rabble, and so that will not and cannot happen. My initial inner response was amusement, but on thinking it over I have to agree with ' statement. (rabble, hoi polloi, sheeple, plebians)renaissanzelady"My cat Rusty is a servant of the Living God."(adapted from a poem by Smart)

"The only people that are left closed to ridicule and attack are perfect clones of those around them that may ridicule and attack them, and in this definition, I'm talking about clones not only in the physical makeup, but also all their actions and thoughts. Of course, not even identical twins are that identical in practice, even to each other: my point is that there will always be those that ridicule and attack others, and no reason needs to exist beyond that of them

feeling like it."

Good points as usual. But I still think if a person leads a decent and moral life, they will not suffer as much ridicule as those who don't, and the insults decent and moral people DO endure are kinds which make the insult-ers look worse than the instulted.

Take a look at Amish people. For the longest time, there was only one criticsm against them, and that was that they would not fight for their country. People in the past decade or so have implied that there is incest going on, or physical abuse. But there has not been much of that.

For years, the Amish have been able to exist in their own communities living according to their own values and morals, and they have survived - and without all the modern conveniences and excesses we have.

If they can do it, so can the rest of society, and they do not even have to hold Amish morals or ideals to do it. But most of society is a sort of rabble, and so that will not and cannot happen.

Administrator

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June 1, 2009

"I believe that further progress would result only as individual women choose to stand against oppression in their own lives, whether from family, institutions or their peers."

I used to work as a supervisor in a very large banking corporation. Many of the other supervisors were women. The Vice President of operations was a woman. I found all but a few of them to be very competent and a joy to work with.

The women whom they supervised had the opposite view of these female supervisors and managers.

The problem usually came around during pay raises and opportunities for promotions. If a woman had been out on maternity leave, her raise was likely to be less, and she was often passed over for promotion. The reason for this was simple: She had not put in as much hours as her male counterparts, nor had she put in the same number of hours as her female counterparts who had not had a child that year. Further, their skill levels had not been increased during the weeks they were absent.

The ratio of women to men in supervisory and managerial positions was about five to one, so it is not like women did not stand a fair chance of getting promoted. But this did not stop women from saying to their managers "I don't see why my being pregnant and having a kid should compromise my salary or my promotion." The supervisors would respond by saying : "I have kids too, and I am your manager. You can be too some year. Just not THIS year."

This only caused the resentful women to become more angry, generally speaking. They did not stop to think for a minute that their supervisors or managers might have children of their own, with all the responsibilities associated with said children. The female supervisors I knew would come to work on time and leave on time, and their wok did not prevent them from dropping their kids off at school, or driving them to piano lessens or whatever.

Many of these women had worked out arrangements with their husbands, so that the housework and cooking and responsibilities toward the children were divided fairly. Yet the ones that were passed up for promotions hadn't thought to make such arrangements with THEIR significant others and so they became even MORE angry.

"When I was warehouse supervisor, a certain woman applied to work there, came for the interview, was offered the job, accepted, then phoned to say 'my husband says the pay is not good enough, so I'm not taking the job.'

"I 'gritted my teeth' mentally, asked her what SHE thought, she gave some vague answer, so I asked her to remember that in Canada womane have legal equality, and if she decided at some future point to re-apply, she would be welcome to do so."

Let me provide you with the male point of view on this. There certainly are men who tend to steamroll over women, or men who happen to feel like women are too stupid to make up their own minds about things, or that women are unable to discern when they are being taken advantage of. However, there are some women who have, for whatever reason, in this day and age, still not really thought too deeply about issues, and still cannot manage their own affairs.

My sister cannot balance a checkbook for example, and she has been taken advantage of more than once when getting her car fixed.

What is the reason for this?

Her religious belief is that finances and fix-it jobs are the man's job. Not the woman's, and so she has never learned and never intends to learn anything about finances or home fix-it jobs. She is 35 and unmarried, and would rather risk getting rooked than doing a man's work.

That is her right.

What she also considers to be her right is for her man -whomever he turns out to be- to tell her what her household tasks are to be, provided these duties are in keeping with what she has read in the Bible. When she is married, she intends never to work again as she believes this is the man's duty. If you were to confront her about these issues, she would tell you that you are going against God's will just for having your perspective.

My sister was NOT raised to be this way. My father and I have, for a very long time, mentored her in an attempt to help her to be self-sufficient. My grandmother on my father's side held a job and wore the pants in the family until she was in her mid 80's. My sister was raised Lutheran. But since she chose a sort of Bible thumping holy-rolling church for herself, she has adopted these views.

So while you may resent the attitudes of the woman you have spoken about, it may be that she has chosen to be that way.

Administrator

June 1, 2009

1. wrote; excerpted;

Yet the ones that were passed up for promotions hadn't thought to make such arrangements with THEIR significant others and so they became even MORE angry.

Some woman can be their own worst enemies, and worse yet, not see that!

(instead becoming angry and blaming others)

2. wrote, excerpted

Let me provide you with the male point of view on this. There certainly are men who tend to steamroll over women, or men who happen to feel like women are too stupid to make up their own minds about things, or that women are unable to discern when they are being taken advantage of. However, there are some women who have, for whatever reason, in this day and age, still not really thought too deeply about issues, and still cannot manage their own affairs.......

So while you may resent the attitudes of the woman you have spoken about, it may be that she has chosen to be that way.

My perspective is that of a woman who has, while married, worked,

then did not work outside the home, then later worked again.

The years i did not work outside the home, were a mutual decision between my husband and myself, for economic reasons.

This did not indicate that i gave up independent thought, just that I deferred to him on financial matters. This did not trouble my sense of individuality, as he is wiser at financial things than I am. and I am more proficient at certain other things.

However, my status at that time seemed to lead some people to speak as if I was subordinate to my husband, having no ideas of my own.

I had no problem debating this at the time. Although being very individualistic, I did become more observant of how men and women of my aquantance interacted with others.

Some of those men who would expound with 'we believe...' had female partners who worked outside the home! And some of the women who would meekly concure with their husband's views worked ouside the home. Thus to categorize a 'housewife' as being unwilling or unable to speak did not seem to be valid, and to catagorize a woman with a job as being a person who speaks for themselves also did not seem to be valid.

It is only recently that I have been exploring (within my own belief system) the right of a person to chooose NOT to speak.

At this stage (of my personal evolution) I have accepted that I have the right to refuse (politely) to engage in small talk.

Possibly the unltimate conclusion of my train of thought will be that a person (male or female) has the right to NOT state their views, if they choose not to.

I do not believe it is appropriate for me to confront some one of a visible minority who's actions are stereotypicaly negative, as I could be seen as a prejudiced person.

It is up to those who are part of that group to confront them whose behaviour leads to negative stereotyping.

At this stage in my life i will continue to confront women who choose to not state their views. And if they choose, they can continue to let someone else speak for them!

renaissanzelady

"My cat Rusty is a servant of the Living God."(adapted from a poem by Smart)

From: environmental1st2003 <no_reply >Subject: Re: jokes that are hurtful to a particular groupTo: FAMSecretSociety Received: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 4:51 PM