Re: Re: jokes that are hurtful to a particular group

[Guest guest]

WIlliam wrote; excerpted;It can be just the minority that behaves in the prejudicial fashion to taint them allmy comment; has a valid point. many years ago I attended a Defensive Driving Course, our instructor was someone who drove for a living, for a Government department.He said if someone in a "company Vehicle" does a driving manoever that is unsafe or rude or illegal, people won't think, 'there goes Doe driving like a maniac', they will think there goes some one from the Department of Highways, driving like a maniac!"It seems to be human nature to categorize in groups.renaissanzelady"My cat Rusty is a servant of the Living God."(adapted from a poem by Smart)Subject: Re: Re: jokes that are hurtful to a particular groupTo: FAMSecretSociety Received: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 4:13 AM

It can be just the minority that behaves in the prejudicial fashion to taint them all.

When I was in military school, they told us to always mind our manners and keep our uniforms straight when we were out in public. The reason was that if civilians saw one of us acting badly or dressed sloppily, it wouldn't matter if there were 30 other cadets there who were doing right, they would only remember the one going wrong.

In the same vein, all it takes is one person of your given ethnic group to live up to the stereotype to taint countless others.

Regarding earlier comments:

I think jokes can also be a kind of bullying. Jokes or snide comments can be used to put a person down and give the joke teller a sense of superiority over the target.

Similarly, they can be used as a form of social bonding. Telling any kind of joke and getting people to laugh is a kind of acceptance. Telling a hurtful joke and getting laughs likewise gives acceptance not only socially but of one's beliefs, since presumably one wouldn't tell a racist joke if they didn't have something against the target.

In a message dated 5/31/2009 2:45:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, no_reply@yahoogroup s.com writes:

As a group, if the majority of the individuals within that group act in accordance with the prevaling "prejudicial" statements and/or derogatory jokes, then shouldn't the minority tell the majority WHY it is the prejudice and the derogatory jokes exist?

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[Guest guest]

As I understand ' comments, things are the way they are for reasons. We can work to change things, if we choose to. wrote excerpted:What is it with today's society that no one can try to set another straight? My reply: In the past I tried, maybe without enough tact, and don't know if it caused people to think, or not.My "cause" used to be woman's equality. Much has been achieved legally, now women need to 'live within' these 'rights and responsibilities' to achieve true equality.I believe that further progress would result only as individual women choose to stand against oppression in their own lives, whether from family, institutions or their peers. Personally, I see life from a

very individualistic point of view. My life is connected with others but they do not totally define who I am.When I was younger and more hopeful, i would speak up for equality if someone made a sexist comment. Also, in a mixed gender group, if a man spoke along the lines of 'we beleive....' I would wait till he was done then ask his female partner if she concurred. Some would seem really embarassed or nervous, and give a vague answer, others would give an articulate answer, sometimes agreeing , sometimes disagreeing. I seldom heard a woman say 'we believe...' On the rare occasion where this occured, I would then ask the male partner if he agreed. If my husband did the 'we beleive..' comment in my hearing, after he finished speaking, I verbalized what I did agree with and what I did not. In my work, I have to be really careful to not let my own 'agenda' cause me to overstep the behaviour

expected of me. When I was

warehouse supervisor, a certain woman applied to work there, came for the interview, was offered the job, accepted, then phoned to say 'my husband says the pay is not good enough, so I'm not taking the job.' I 'gritted my teeth' mentally, asked her what SHE thought, she gave some vague answer, so I asked her to remember that in Canada womane have legal equality, and if she decided at some future point to re-apply, she would be welcome to do so. I do NOT thinkk she was an immigrant, but I did not know how else to express my distress and give her some encouragement. To have told her 'you are adding to the image of Albertans as 'red-necked hicks' would have only insulted her, and got me in trouble with my boss.This type of thing has happened occasionally in my work as r Supervisor also. I have NEVER had a man apply, then phone back to say that his WIFE thinks the pay is too low, so he is declining the

job.So, I still have the image of many Albertans as being 'hicks'I do not disagree with a person getting input from their family or roommates and freinds when making a decision, it is just the commones of 'my husband thinbks.. so I am complying', contrasted with the lack of 'my wife thinks... so I am complying.'' type comments that I have heard.renaissanzelady"My cat Rusty is a servant of the Living God."(adapted from a poem by Smart)From: environmental1st2003 <no_reply >Subject: Re: jokes that are hurtful to a particular groupTo: FAMSecretSociety Received: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 12:45 AM

wrote, excerpted;

"But secondly, if people want to avoid having bad things said about them, then they ought to conduct themselves in a manner that leaves them closed to ridicule and attack."

RL said:

"I agree with this regarding individuals, BUT prejudice can affect a group of people, some of whom do not act in accordance with the prevailing negative view."

replies:

Of course this is true. But let me point something out to you...

As a group, if the majority of the individuals within that group act in accordance with the prevaling "prejudicial" statements and/or derogatory jokes, then shouldn't the minority tell the majority WHY it is the prejudice and the derogatory jokes exist?

I can provide an example of this. In the melting pot that is the US, Irish, Hispanics, East Indians, Arabs, Greeks, Italians, Russians, Czecks, Poles, Serbs, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc, have all come from overseas and moved up the economic ladder. Within a generation or two, these minorities have moved into suburbia and have well paying jobs. They raise families where kids go to college.

Let's remember that the Japanese were interned in camps during world war two, and now the US buys most of their cars from them. Ask yourself how in 65 years or so, these people, who were once thought merciless killers are now one of the most revered and respected minorities in the US.

African Americans, by contrast, perform worse in school than any and every other minority in the US and the crime rates among blacks is higher than any other minority.

When African American comedian Bill Cosby went on the road and told other African Americans that they needed to get it together or they would never catch up, he was jeered by those African Americans he spoke to and his television career is ended for that reason. African Americans have come to hate him. They believe that he has "turned white."

I saw some of the speeches he was giving, and in one of them, if I am not mistaken, he told a racist joke:

Q: "What do you do to stop two black people fighting?"

A: "Throw them a basketball."

He said there was truth in that joke because what do you most often see black people doing when you drive through the ghetto? Playing basketball. He said you don't see them picking up trash off the streets. He said you don't see them fixing broken windows. He said you don't see them erasing grafitti from the walls. He said you don't see them discouraging their neighbors from barbequing in their bathtubs in high rise tenements. All you see them doing is playing basketball.

Now is that joke fair to all of the lower class, middle class, and upper class, law abiding, moral upholding African American .citizens?

Certainly not. But then why aren't all these lower class, middle class, and upper class, law abiding, moral upholding African American citizens working harder -like Bill Cosby is- to motivate the segment of their population that causes the derogatory jokes to do better?

I don't know about you, but in my neighborhood, if someone doesn;t keep their yard up, you either offer to help them clean it, or you call the city's appearance commision, and they go over and fine the neighbor and make him/her clean up his yard.

We report crimes, no matter what the potential consequence is.

If we find out a neighbor is growing pot plants in their basements, for example, we turn them in. My neighborhood was ethnically mixed. We had Italians, Irish, Japanese, Filipinos, English, Germans, and Americans living on one street. Catholics and Protestants and Bhuddists. We all got along, and the neighborhood was clean and crime free.

I don't see why all neighborhoods can't be that way, even if the people who live there are dirt poor

RL said:

"Some one cannot help being born in a particular province. They should not have to keep secret their origins to avoid having some bigot stereotype them. (a former Calagry mayor refered to workers from eastern Canada as 'bums and scum')"

says:

No one can help where they are born obviously, nor can they help the circumstances they are born into. But if they are born intact, and without mental or physical incapacity, nothing prevents them from tearing off their scarlet letters and putting on a red badge of courage.

RL says:

"If a natural blonde has to dye her hair to avoid being stereotyped, I think this would be unfortunate.

<snip>

"Yes, if a blonde acts dumb to flatter some rich man, or to be like the class clown, then she as an individual deserves ridicule. BUT not all blondes are dumb."

says:

Certainly not all blondes are dumb. MOST of them aren't dumb. Yet in the 40 years of my existence, I have never heard one blonde haired woman say to another blonde haired woman "stop acting stupid". You make us all look bad.

What is it with today's society that no one can try to set another straight?

RL said:

"If a woman dyes her hair blonde to fit in socially, maybe she is to be pitied rather than ridiculed, if she values social approval to that extent, and uses superficial means to gain approval from superficial people. Maybe those who are weak are more to be pitied than to be scorned. Or does the 'law of the jungle' apply, only the strong shall survive?"

For those of us who believe in God, we know that God determnines WHEN we die, but for the most part, unless He interferes, WE are the ones that determine how we live.

In terms of evolution, nature's law has always been that only the fittest shall survive. Generally, the more intelligent the breed of animal, the craftier measure it will take to beat nature.

A popular archtype in literature is man versus nature. We see this in the movies also. In grapes of wrath, a family fights against drout. There have been countless movies where men battle bears, wolves, etc. Also hurricanes, floods, tornados.

Then of course there have been studies...studies which show that the apes who make the most noise generally lead the troop unless a more intelligent ape can overthrow them. Less intelligent apes survive by either trading food, or by lopsided sharing, in which they share a lot at some point in the hopes that they may get a lot at some later point.

Humans tend to use sex appeal or just act stupid and helpless instead of trying to fend for themselves. The exception to this rule are those who truly are helpless or unintelligent and who really do need help.

I agree that derogatory jokes are wrong, but I still feel they have some basis of truth in them, or else they would not be told. My heritage is primarily German, English, Swedish, Irish and Russian and there are plenty of jokes out there as well. I don't take offense to any of them. I figure somewhere in history, my ancestors earned the scarlet letters they carried and do carry. And I also figure that we've earned some red badges of courage also.

I blame THEM for any sterotypical jokes I may receive about my "kraut" heritage, for example. But I've lived my life in a different way, and that is all that matters to me, even if no one else knows it. People could call me a kraut all they want and I would not care.

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