Re: Tony Attwood's opinion on autistics and relationships...

[Guest guest]

Yes, and the reaction that gprobertson posted in this forum along with her

knee-jerk call to sign a petition against Tony Attwood was premature and

ill-conceived.

This is how good people get burned out quickly in this world ... by people who

are quick to judge without bothering to get all the facts prior to defaming,

slandering and libeling a strong advocate who works tirelessly to bridge the gap

between those on the spectrum and those who are neurotypical.

I would expect the sort of knee-jerk reaction gprobertson posted recently to be

in keeping with an NT's reaction and not in keeping with an Autistic's reaction.

Raven

[Guest guest]

I note that that article is dated a couple of days after ASAN contacted Tony regarding his position and alignment with various groups who denigrate our ability to form relationships. I know the contents of the letter because I sent it to him by registered mail. In the letter, we discussed his alignment with people who subscribe to the "Cassandra Syndrome" theory. You can see in the email that he is clearly not supporting that theory at all, but this is the first time I have seen him explicitly state that he does not support that theory. We also discussed the matter of having the legal protocols which address anyone who is unable to care for their children being sufficient to address the needs of autistic parents who are unable to parent successfully. I note that he is supporting our perspective. In my opinion, this is a very successful outcome from a civil but detailed letter in which we expressed our disappointment at his alignment with groups who stereotype autistics as participants in unequal relationships in which the partner is a victim of autism.

Thank you for posting that link. I shall let the other members of ASAN-AU know of this excellent outcome.

Tony Attwood's opinion on autistics and relationships...

Contrary to GP on's point of view, here is what Tony Attwood actually has to say about autistics and relationships...

Administrator

http://www.faaas.org/doc.php?29,358

Tony Attwood, Ph.D.

A Word from Tony Attwood

"I would like to state quite clearly that having a diagnosis of autism orAsperger's syndrome does not render a person automatically incapable ofbeing a good partner and parent. Indeed, many of the people I know with autism and Asperger's syndrome as clients and friends are exceptionally goodparents and partners. Should a separation occur between partners and a Court examine the issue of custody of children and access then in myopinion, any decisions should be made on the basis of the abilities of each parent and not simply assume that a parent with autism or Asperger'ssyndrome is incapable of being a good parent.

"The term "Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder" has been coined by Maxine Aston. It is not an official diagnostic category. I do know that stress within a relationship between an adult with Asperger's syndrome and their partner can lead to the neurotypical partner having signs of aclinical depression. Effective relationship counselling by a counsellor knowledgeable in the area of autism and Asperger's syndrome can significantly improve the relationship and help alleviate the signs ofdepression.

"According to my knowledge, there is no research to suggest that people with autism and Asperger's syndrome are likely to be violent in a relationship to any greater degree than a typical person in the general population. I do know that a significant proportion of the clients that I see in my clinical practice express to me their concern in their ability to manage their temper but we now have programs such as Cognitive Behaviour Therapy to help those with autism and Asperger's syndrome manage feelings such as anger. Problems with anger management also occur in the ordinary population but the nature of the treatment of difficulties with anger management must include an appreciation of the different experiences and cognitive profile of someone with an Autism Spectrum Disorder.

"I have presented workshops for FAAAS for couples where one of the partners has a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome and in all my presentations, I have approached the issues in a very positive way examining strategies to make asuccessful relationship."

"by Tony Attwood via email, May 8, 2009"

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[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: "I note that that article is dated a couple of days after ASAN contacted Tony regarding his position and alignment with various groups who denigrate our ability to form relationships ... <snip> ... "

Honestly now, gprobertson, if you bothered to know what Tony Attwood stands for with respect to this subject, you would know that he was reiterating two days after ASAN contacted him what he has always said about relationships between Aspies and NTs.

ASAN had nothing whatsoever with Tony Attwood's views which were already addressed by Tony long before the conference to which you referred and even longer before ASAN contacted him about his comments at the conference.

One can hardly expect an individual to answer a group's false accusations PRIOR to being made aware of their misperception of the individual's comments.

You're making ASAN out to be so much more influential on Tony Attwood than ASAN really is.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... I know the contents of the letter because I sent it to him by registered mail ... <snip> ... "

So you sent him a registered mail letter. That doesn't prove you influenced Tony Attwood's opinions in any way.

gproberston wrote: " ... <snip> ... In the letter, we discussed his alignment with people who subscribe to the "Cassandra Syndrome" theory ... <snip> ... "

The "we" to whom you are referring are the members of ASAN who drafted the letter that was sent to him via registered mail. The "we" in question does not include Tony Attwood, just to be clear on that point.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... You can see in the email that he is clearly not supporting that theory at all, but this is the first time I have seen him explicitly state that he does not support that theory ... <snip> ... "

He has never supported the theory, gprobertson. That you are unaware of this doesn't surprise me.

Do you expect Tony Attwood to speak to every 'theory' that is brought forth that somehow pertains to Autism Spectrum Disorders? If you do, then Tony Attwood would have little time left to do the superlative work he does do that helps all Autistics in many ways.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... We also discussed the matter of having the legal protocols which address anyone who is unable to care for their children being sufficient to address the needs of autistic parents who are unable to parent successfully ... <snip> ... "

Parents who are unable to parent successfully regardless of a diagnosis or lack therein should not be parents in the first place.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... I note that he is supporting our perspective ... <snip> ... "

He has reiterated his position which just happens to be aligned with that of ASAN's as it pertains to relationships between Aspies and NTs.

This does NOT mean that he is supporting your perspective based on anything ASAN has done or written or sent via registered mail or any other way to him.

To claim otherwise is to certainly think more of ASAN's influence on Tony Attwood than it has.

Tony Attwood has been the 'go to' person with regards to AS for a number of years now ... long before ASAN existed.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... In my opinion, this is a very successful outcome from a civil but detailed letter in which we expressed our disappointment at his alignment with groups who stereotype autistics as participants in unequal relationships in which the partner is a victim of autism ... <snip> ... "

Actually, it's taking credit for something that is not ASAN's to take credit for in the first place.

Additionally to persist with the false claim that he had formerly aligned himself with groups that stereotype autistics as participants in unequal relationships in which the partner is a victim of autism is bother defamatory and libelous. I suspect you and other members of ASAN-AU make slanderous comments about Tony Attwood as well.

Pride comes before the fall, gprobertson. You may want to jot that down in your daytimer somewhere.

Raven

[Guest guest]

gprobertson@... wrote:

"I note that that article is dated a couple of days after ASAN contacted Tony regarding his position and alignment with various groups who denigrate our ability to form relationships. I know the contents of the letter because I sent it to him by registered mail. In the letter, we discussed his alignment with people who subscribe to the "Cassandra Syndrome" theory. You can see in the email that he is clearly not supporting that theory at all, but this is the first time I have seen him explicitly state that he does not support that theory."

Okay, I feel the need to address this, because you've infuriated me with your ignorance.

First of all, most people who have read Attwood's books, read his articles, wrote him personally on this issue, attended his lectures, etc., knows what Attwood's views are on this subject

To suggest that ASAN was instrumental in getting Attwood to clarify his views on this issue is absolutely absurd. Anyone who has seen Attwood, read Attwood, or corresponded with him personally on these issues knows what his views are, and his views have always been favorable to Aspies.

In this particular instance, I think ASAN decided to go after Attwood simply to draw attention to itself.

"We also discussed the matter of having the legal protocols which address anyone who is unable to care for their children being sufficient to address the needs of autistic parents who are unable to parent successfully. I note that he is supporting our perspective."

Attwood always supported "your" perspective, and there was never a time when he didn't. To imply otherwise is ridiculous. He has ALWAYS held a view that was similar to yours, and nothing ASAN has done or is doing was influential in determining or changing Attwood's views.

"In my opinion, this is a very successful outcome from a civil but detailed letter in which we expressed our disappointment at his alignment with groups who stereotype autistics as participants in unequal relationships in which the partner is a victim of autism."

To put it bluntly: What it was was an attempt on his part to clarify that his position is and always was in concert with your's and ASAN's. He never aligned himself with any such movement or group like you describe, as anyone who personally knows him understands.

The "letter" served no other purpose except to cause people to question Attwood and the legitimacy of his research, which is something autistics cannot afford given that he has always been an ally of autistics.

In short, if autistics want to alienate Attwood, there is no better way of doing it than in the manner ASAN did. As a rule of thumb I admire and support ASAN's ideas and ideals, but not in this specific instance.

"Thank you for posting that link. I shall let the other members of ASAN-AU know of this excellent outcome."

You might also want to let them know that thanks to ASAN's letter, Attwood was forced to waste valuable time clarifying his position which was already known to the autistic community at large, and that his time could have been better spent continuing his valuable research, and advocating for autistics.

Further, you might want to tell people in ASAN-AU to educate themselves a little better about who Attwood is, what he stands for, and what he teaches, because their ignorance -and yours- regarding Tony Attwood makes us all look stupid.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Raven wrote: " I would expect the sort of knee-jerk reaction gprobertson posted

recently to be in keeping with an NT's reaction and not in keeping with an

Autistic's reaction. "

gprobertson responded: " Oh no. You better let Tony Attwood know that he is not

a very good diagnostician. "

Why, Geraldine? I never said you weren't a diagnosed Autistic.

I said that your knee-jerk reaction to the situation was in keeping with an NT's

reaction and not in keeping with an Autistic's reaction.

Sometimes that happens and in the case of your most recent post regarding the

conference and your subsequent rants inciting people to sign an ill-conceived

petition against Tony Attwood, the behaviours were in keeping with how an NT

would usually react under similar circumstances.

For you to answer in this way, perhaps you do not believe that Tony Attwood did

not diagnose you correctly and perhaps you are correct if, indeed, that is what

you are saying.

As you stated, Tony Attwood is human and flawed and perhaps he occasionally

misdiagnoses some individuals.

I am not saying he misdiagnosed you but then again, perhaps he did. Who knows?

All I said in the post to which you are referring is that your response was more

in keeping with an NT reaction than an Autistic reaction.

You really do read far too much into everything I post when you are in

disagreement with me and you read far too much into things that are written that

agree with you, going as far as taking credit for the other person's point of

view when it is a long-held point of view that was in place long before any

communications between you and the other individual.

Raven

[Guest guest]

"However, he is also human and has flaws. One of those is the tendency to be a "crowd pleaser". An example of this is his statement about the way he conducts relationships workshops. I have no doubt that he is respectful towards autistic partners during these workshops however during his seminars to professionals, he has been very much promoting the same opinions and stereotypes as Maxine. He even mimicked the "autistic walk" which some of us, including my son, do and some of us don't."

Guess what? If we don't want to be "mimicked", then perhaps we shouldn't give anyone any behaviors to mimick. It's not so difficult to abandon that posture that "walk" and I see no reason to adhere to it when we are in public.

"I was very offended to see that mocked for the entertainment of the audience, particularly as mimicking behaviours relating to a classified disability are classed as discriminatory behaviours. I have told him my opinion of that. I have asked Tony why he does that stuff and he replies that it is good stress release for the audience."

Just as one abandons local dialects and drawls in formal setting in favor of standard English and grammar, so should we abandon our "walk" in favor of the one that the rest of society uses. This is hardly discrimination. It is adhering to societal norms.

Personally, I would expect to be mimicked and made fun of if I went to a soiree among politicians and I used "ain't choo" instead of "are you not" or ate with my fingers instead with a fork and knife. Similarly, if I walked "like an autistic" among the NTs while the rest of the NTs werewalking "normal" I would expect to be ridiculed.

There are NTs, and there are autistics, and there is society, which is composed of both, and the majority of society walks a certain way. The only people who ought to be exempt from doing so are those who are physically or mentally incpacitated, and since the majority of those on the spectrum are neither, then the majority of those on the spectrum ought to walk like everyone else walks.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

gproberston wrote: " [Tony Attwood] would not compose that email if he thought

it was a waste of time ... <snip> ... "

No he wouldn't.

That being said, if his name and reputation were being defamed, slandered and

libeled by a group that did not take the time to educate themselves on what he

stands for, he would most assuredly write an email or letter defending himself.

Said defence would not take on a negative tone, but would rather restate his

position which has remained constant wherein the topic of Aspie/NT relationships

are concerned.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip>... When he makes official links with groups, he

is aware of the implication that the actions of that group will be perceived as

approved by him ... <snip> ... "

We're well aware of that. That being said, any group wishing to make use of a

link between them and Tony Attwood had best understand what he stands for which,

obviously ASAN-AU did not understand.

He therefore had to issue a response to your registered mail letter that

protected his reputation and name from the defamatation, slander and libel that

might come from ASAN-AU's constant assertion that Tony Attwood stood for other

than what he has stood for now for several years.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... This is why many autism groups seek Tony's

name to be affiliated with theirs. It gives automatic credibility ... <snip>

.... "

Actually, Tony Attwood does not affiliate his name with others unless he sees

they are credible.

It is then the responsibility of the group or individual who link their name to

Tony Attwood's to act in a responsible and reputable manner.

ASAN's actions did not, in my opinion, uphold that responsibility when they

publicly attacked Tony Attwood as they did with regards to this specific

situation. How sad to see.

Raven

[Guest guest]

"He would not compose that email if he thought it was a waste of time. When he makes official links with groups, he is aware of the implication that the actions of that group will be perceived as approved by him. This is why many autism groups seek Tony's name to be affiliated with theirs. It gives automatic credibility. "

It's in his interest to write that letter because ASAN in essence smeared him with their letter writing campaign/petition, and he was forced to issue a statement indicating views which he had already indicated countless times. If ASAN would have left well enough alone, no one would doubt Tony Attwood, and Attwood would not have had to write a letter explaining points of view that have already been made well-known to the general public, and views which have been approved of by autistics.

I think on this one, ASAN has succeeded only in making itself look like a bunch of ignorant militarists, which is a disappointment given their successes against the NYU "Ransom Notes" campaign.

Incidentally, why isn't ASAN one of Attwood's approved links?

Administrator

[Guest guest]

asked: " Incidentally, why isn't ASAN one of Attwood's approved links? "

That's a good question.

Raven

[Guest guest]

" I can't speak for ASAN. You get to be an approved link by submitting it for

inclusion. ASAN-AU has not submitted the link. I don't know that there would

be a benefit to us to do that. There are many credible Autism organizations who

are not linked on Tony's site so it isn't a big issue. Actually I had a website

for some years and that was listed on his site. I took the site down and asked

for the link to be removed when the burden of keeping the up to date became

onerous. "

Yes well, I think there is a different reason. If you notice, other militant or

quasi-militant groups are not listed either. Aspies For Freedom isn't there and

I know they have tried to make the list.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: "I can't speak for ASAN ... <snip> ... "

But you *do* speak for ASAN-AU as evidenced by your previous post of earlier this evening when you wrote:

"

ASAN contacted Tony regarding his position and alignment with various groups who denigrate our ability to form relationships. I know the contents of the letter because I sent it to him by registered mail. In the letter, we discussed his alignment with people who ... <snip> ... [end quote]."

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... You get to be an approved link by submitting it for inclusion ... <snip> ... "

My understanding is that a link is not automatic by virtue of just being submitted. My understanding is that the submitted link is researched and then either approved or rejected.

But, of course, it begins with submitting the link in the first place so it can be investigated by the appropriate people responsible for Tony Attwood's online presence.

gproberston wrote: " ... <snip> ... ASAN-AU has not submitted the link ... <snip> ... "

Perhaps they have not; perhaps they have and it was rejected. Perhaps it was submitted and a decision has not be arrived at yet to date.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... I don't know that there would be a benefit to us to do that ... <snip> ... "

Hold on a minute there, Geraldine! You began your reponse with:

"

[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... I would like to see the link where I said that:? "It will be very easy for you to go to Yahoo Groups and form your own foulmouthed autistic group!!!!!!! "

Subject: Re: You Need To Form Your Own Group

From: gprobertson

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 06:20:09 -0500

Yahoo! Message Number: 71501

Onibasu Link: http://onibasu.com/archives/am/71501.html

It will be very easy for you to go to Yahoo Groups and formyour own foulmouthed autistic group. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!____________________The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/You posted that at www.onibasu.com over 6 years ago ... the same site where you promoted those things that you deny promoting in your most recent post here.

gproberston wrote: " ... <snip> ... You are very welcome to search for the site. It was called Welcome to Planet Asperger. ... <snip> ... "

What was the domain name? It certainly wasn't www.welcometoplanetasperger.com.

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... If I still had it, I would give you the URL but it was long and complicated and I did not bother to keep a record. Actually I had two sites with that name ... <snip> ... "

How convenient for you. Still, complicated or not, one generally does not forget the work one does that has an impact on one's life including setting up not one, but two, websites that pertain to a diagnosis that one has been given by a respected and world renown authority on the subject.

gproberston wrote: " ... <snip> ... It wasn't that important ... <snip> ... "

I've noticed how that's a part of how you operate.

Raven

[Guest guest]

"I don't think Aspies for Freedom and ASAN can be grouped together. For a start, they want validation from others. ASAN-AU does not require that."

I think initially, it was true that they could not be grouped together. But now days, more and more they are being seen as one and the same.

When Aspies For Freedom was founded, it was founded by an underaged Aspie boy who practiced Satanism. He ran away from home to live with a married Aspie woman twice his age. He is alleged by his father to have stolen a bunch of computer equipment from his father's home with said equipment having an estimated value at the time of five thousand pounds.

This boy (now of legal age) and this woman have since flooded the net with a number of websites and chatrooms, etc., attracting the most militant of the autistic population. Some branches of AFF have sprung up, but many have already folded, even one in Austrailia run by someone named .

Aspies For Freedom's claims to fame were a few civil rights marches as well as trying to get the United Nations to declare autistics a minority group - something that made them the laughing stock of the autistic community.

ASAN was founded by Ari Ne'eman, and has consistently been much more grounded in terms of its goals, one of them being to address individuals and organizations which misrepresent autism or paint autistics or autism itself in a bad light. In my opinion, it's most successful campaign was the Ransom Notes campaign.

But speaking from experience, I also know that Ari is an opportunist who makes tenuous bonds with people whom he thinks will be of advantage to him in promoting his causes.

I know of at least one company that approached MIC asking to sponsor one of our events. We told this company and its founder that we would not align ourselves with them due to their active and enthusiastic support of Autism Speaks via a joint fundraiser with another company. The founder, who is NOT an Aspie, is now one of Ari's allies, and the company is seen in a position of prominance on many petitions and letters which Ari sends to those he is protesting against. The founder has claimed to Ari to be Aspie when in fact the founder is not. The founder continues to work with another company to support Autism Speaks even as it purports to be Ari's ally. This only goes to show that Ari does a poor job of screening his confederates.

How do I know these things for sure? The company's founder WAS a personal friend. The founder is about as socially outgoing as you can posibly imagine. Has loads of friends. Displays none of the attitudes, aspects, or indicators of autism, and has stated openly that there was no diagnosis that ever resulted in the label asperger/autism/HFA or autism spectrum disorder. In fact, the founder has no diagnosis whatsoever.

Now we have this attempt by ASAN to impugn Attwood.

It smells bad any way you look at it.

Never at any point in history did Attwood have the view or present the view that ASAN is alledging he has presented. The move by ASAN to question Attwood's actions/speech is either based on ignorance, or a deliberate attempt to bring attention to itself.

What I am saying, is that the tenuous bonds ASAN forms with supporting corporations as well as its moves to assault the motives of the biggest and most important autism researchers in the world, are evocative of AFF's tactics.

Lastly, of course, we have you, someone who is supposedly ocassionally utilized by ASAN-AU, and but whom has a known history of causing consternation on the net. One of our members here banned you from another forum, and you yourself have admitted to being banned from some forums. Some of your views on autism and what can be done to treat and cure it are in and of themselves anti-thetical to Ari Ne-eman's beliefs and ethics as well as ASAN's principles and ethical stance, so I don't see how ASAN can in any way be taken seriously anymore in light of all of this.

In my opinion, Ari needs to weed through ASAN and pitch those who, by their actions and deeds are working against them even as they claim to be working for them. You ought to be the first to go.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

"I don't speak for ASAN-AU. Sometimes I am required to represent them, which if I agree on their proposed action, I do."

Well, when you act as an agent on their behalf, then you are speaking for them.

"My point was that ASAN-AU has not been rejected by Tony. It has not been submitted. He does not post links without request from the organizers. I know this because when I was webmaster for Autism Tasmania, all autism groups contacted him if they wanted links. He did not solicit any. I also know that he does publish links that might be controversial. He published the link to my site which contained some information that some people strongly objected to but he was ok with controversy. I don't know what he does now, but at the time, Tony personally approved/disapproved content on his site."

I am aware of how Attwood approves or denies links and for what reasons.

"It is ok for people to discuss health issues. It is not ok for them to tell everyone that these are a cure for autism. I have never wanted autism to be cured. if I had, I would support CAN and Autism Speaks and I would not be a member of ASAN-AU."

I think it would benefit you to be this clear when speaking with others, because your stance up until this point has confused people, particularly as it pertains to Chelation. Heavy metal toxicity is very rare, yet one would think it happens every day. An exposure to mercury via thimerosal or dental fillings is NOT toxicity. Toxicity is when you have ingested or absorbed potentially lethal or life-threatening dosages, or dosages which threaten to destroy ones health. In the medical profession, chelation is used only in the most extreme circumstances.

"Sad to think that its corpse is about to be exhumed, but I am sure you will have many hours of pleasure ripping my innermost thoughts apart."

That is not the purpose of the discussion. The prupose of the discussion is to bring light to the continuing way in which you contradict yourself on issues of importance. We are intrested in knowing what your true opinions are on these issues.

A person cannot claim to supprt something and then be a part of a group (ASAN) which opposes it - or maybe they can, but then they threaten the integrity of ASAN.

Administrator

[Guest guest]

"Sometimes an organization would 'use' someone to their advantage, even if the person could be a potantial danger to them, It's a sort of trade off. (like allowing a dangerous snake to live under your house in the tropics, because it is useful to control rats etc!)"

It's a question of morality. There are two ways to achieve one's goals: The moral way, and the quick and easy way.

The thing is, if you take the moral route, nothing comes back to haunt you in the long run.

"Personally I don't think it's wise to take a risk that could result in an organization losing credibility, possibly having potential supporters scared off etc. just because someone may be useful to them at times."

Well, as far as some organizations are concerned, there is enough of a population out there to draw from so they can drop those who get in their way and stand a fair chance of never having to face up to what they've done because the numbers of people they have cultivated that support them can always drown out the dissenters.

The thing to remember, however, is that once you reach a level where the media notice you, the media can dig deep and find out what you have done and to whom you have done it to. Then the past can come back to haunt one.

"Politics makes strange bedfellows", speaking here of not governmental politics but organizational politics. (from my observations through the years in different organizations, not autism related)

Autism rights organizations walk a particularly fine line thanks to those "strange bedfellows" you have mentioned. For instance, ASAN has now linked themselves with the Dan Marino Foundation in a public service announcement.

The Dan Marino Foundation actively supports Autism Speaks:

http://www.autismspeaks.org/press/american_century_championship.php

New York, NY, July 7, 2005 --- The American Century Championship, the prominent, 16-year-old, nationally televised celebrity golf tournament from Lake Tahoe, has designated New York City-based Autism Speaks as the charity beneficiary of this year's tournament, organizers announced today.Dan Marino, founder of the Dan Marino Foundation to benefit autism, will serve as the primary spokesperson for the campaign, which will involve scores of celebrity golfers, tournament title sponsor American Century Investments, NBC Sports and the Lake Tahoe community. Marino, the former superstar quarterback who will be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame August 7, is playing in the July 15-17 golf tournament along with a field that includes Jordan, Trump, Barkley, Don Cheadle, Elway, Dennis Haysbert and Emmitt , among 80 sports and entertainment stars.

On the other hand, ASAN just had a feeble petition out there to boycott Lindt Chocolates because they support Autism Speaks. So clearly ASAN does not know what it is doing. It is amazing people follow Ari's Marino Foundation initiative when the Marino/Autism Speaks alliance is such common knowledge in the Autism Community.

I guess my next question would be, what happens when the Marino Foundation supports Autism Speaks or some similar organization against Ari's wishes. Then what will ASAN do?

BTW, below you will see that AFF supports the Dan Marino/ASAN alliance, so even THAT advocacy organization does not realize that DMF is directly affiliated with Autism Speaks.

Administrator

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1961

ASAN: Lindt Chocolates and Autism Speaks

Below is a letter from ASAN's Ari Ne'eman. Lindt Chocolates has a fundraising campaign to sponsor Autism Speaks and organization which has no autistics in prominent, decision-making positions.

Recently, Lindt Chocolates announced a fundraising campaign for Autism Speaks, an organization that excludes autistic people themselves from its decision-making, uses offensive and unethical advertising tactics based on fear and pity and raises funds for the eugenic elimination of the autism spectrum. Too often, money raised to improve our lives goes towards organizations that don't speak for us and work against our interests. People with disabilities of all kinds have a right to be at the center of the decisions made about us, not standing at the sidelines. We've started an action alert to tell Lindt Chocolates that its money is better used elsewhere, with charities whose work will benefit the lives of autistic people rather than aim to eliminate us. Click here to go to our action alert or go to: http://www.change.org/autisticadvocacy/actions/view/tell_lindt_chocolates_that_autism_speaks_doesnt_speak_for_us

The action alert allows you to write your own e-mail or use a form letter already available, however, for those of you who want to write your own e-mail or can't use the action alert for whatever reason, here are some talking points on why Autism Speaks is bad for the autism and autistic communities. Lindt Chocolate's e-mail is here: lindt@...

-Autism Speaks is an autism organization that claims to speak for autistic people, without a single autistic person on its board of directors or leadership. This is far out of line with the mainstream of the disability community, where individuals with disabilities work side by side with family members, professionals and others to achieve quality of life and equality of opportunity. Autism Speaks' exclusionary policies are an embarrassment to itself and its funders.

-Autism Speaks advertising is highly offensive to autistic people and our families, with ads that compare a life on the autism spectrum to a car accident, being struck by lightning, a terminal illness and other fatal situations. Rather than work to decrease stigma and increase respect for autistic people, Autism Speaks' advertising fosters pity, shame and fear, suggesting that our very lives are mistakes and burdens.

-Autism Speaks' fundraising goes towards genetic research aimed at developing a prenatal test with potentially eugenic applications. Given the fact that 92% of fetuses that test positive for Down Syndrome are selectively aborted prior to birth, we are concerned by the prospect of a similar result in respect to the autism spectrum. This is an issue of discrimination, wholly separate from typical abortion politics. Money raised in the name of autistic people should go towards opportunities for quality of life, not towards our elimination. Autism Speaks research agenda is overwhelmingly focused on causation and prevention rather than research initiatives that might support quality of life for all autistic people. This drains support from initiatives that stand to improve the quality of life of autistic people, such as services, supports and education, which Autism Speaks supports in only a tiny fraction of its massive budget.

Thank you to those who alerted us of this situation and we urge your immediate support. Together, our voices cannot be ignored. Nothing About Us, Without Us!

Regards,Ari Ne'emanPresidentThe Autistic Self Advocacy Network1660 L Street, NW, Suite 700Washington, DC 20036http://www.autisticadvocacy.orgRead more: http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1961#ixzz0Fnsmb2bK & B

So clearly ASAN doesn't know what it's doing. Neither does Aspies For Freedom, which is promoting the ASAN/Dan marino Video:

http://www.aspiesforfreedom.com/showthread.php?tid=15762

The Dan Marino Foundation and the Autistic Self Advocacy Network have created a public service announcement called No Myths, which was filmed inside a full-scale replica of the Parthenon and features an all-autistic cast debunking myths and stereotypes about autism.No Myths Autism Awareness Video on YouTubeNo Myths Autism Awareness Video - Captioned VersionYou can read more at http://www.nomyths.org about the video and its production.To get this video distributed more widely, please contact your local autism societies, disability organizations, and others who may be interested in passing on the links!

[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... I knew that was not something I created.? I was horrified at the author stereotyping all of us for one person's behaviour. That is what the exclamation marks were about.? It can be very effective to take things out of context if you want to portray someone as something they are not.? You have done this well, Raven, however some people might be more interested in fact ... <snip> ... "

If your version was accurate, the post would not read as it does:

Subject: Re: You Need To Form Your Own Group From: gprobertson

Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 06:20:09 -0500

Yahoo! Message Number: 71501

Onibasu Link: http://onibasu.com/archives/am/71501.html

It will be very easy for you to go to Yahoo Groups and formyour own foulmouthed autistic group. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very clearly these are your words and your exclamation marks, gprobertson. If these were not your words and you were responding to someone else's comments, you would have done more than just add exclamation marks.

Of course, you have also conveniently forgotten -- when it was mentioned in recent months -- the many forums where you are banned for abusive responses that are not unlike the one found at onibasu.

You certainly are quite the spin doctor .... implying one thing, then crying foul when someone calls you on your claims or your behaviours.

Raven

[Guest guest]

gprobertson wrote: "ASAN: I speak with them if I agree. If I don't agree on a specific issue, I don't speak with them. I don't know that it is possible for me to agree with everything any group does or to totally agree with any one person. I would not stay a member with any group that required that of me ... <snip> ... "

When you write "I" and "WE" as it pertains to your interactions with and on behalf of ASAN, you are stating that you are a card-carrying member, so to speak. You claimed victory in ASAN's name for Tony Attwood's response to ASAN's letter that YOU sent to Tony Attwood via registered mail (if we are to believe you). This makes you an integral part of ASAN-AU at the very least since an every day member of ASAN wouldn't be privvy to the details of the letter much less lay claim to being responsible for 'opening' Tony Attwood's eyes.gproberston wrote: " ... <snip> ... Causes [of metal toxicity] can be arsenic poisoning from treated timber, damaged mercury fillings, unsafe dental practice, eating large quantities of polluted fish (tuna is really risky in some areas), contamination from fluorescent light bulbs that have broken and heaps more. ... <snip> ... "

That being said, however, metal toxicity does NOT cause Autism.

Computer monitors also contain mercury but I don't see you or anyone else who rails against heavy metal toxicity advocating loudly for the destruction of computer monitors! Maybe all those people in that mining town should do away with their computer monitors expressly because of the mercury!!!

gprobertson wrote: " ... <snip> ... I am interested in this because of the huge number of children diagnosed on the autism spectrum in this area. I work with 20 out of approx. 650 children. There are several more pending dx. I believe that some of those are misdxd and actually have mercury toxicity, particularly a family which lives next door to an old mine dump ... <snip> ... "

And yet, whether they live next door to an old mine dump is immaterial even if there is Autism in the home.

In Oak Ridge, TN a large amount of mercury was accidentally dumped into the ground back during WWII. Then there was the mercury that was buried underground but after a major fire in the records room years later, no one could remember where that mercury was buried so they could dig it up and dispose of it properly.

Interestingly enough, the rate of Autism in Oak Ridge and surrounding areas is 1 in 166 children ... the rate of incidence that is seen in North America save for a couple of areas (one place in NJ where it's 1 in 94 and one in another location in the US where it's 1 in 150).

Bottom line, gprobertson, all the science points to the fact that heavy metal toxicity is NOT the cause of Autism ergo you are operating on incorrect information.

And chelation is not going to cure or lessen Autism in those who are Autistic.

Raven